PDA

View Full Version : Salmon and Shackelford sent to AAA



Danny Serafini
03-19-2007, 09:52 AM
Just came up on the team press notes.

TheWalls
03-19-2007, 09:59 AM
Discouraging about Salmon, but inevitable given the option situation.

TheWalls
03-19-2007, 10:01 AM
On a related note, Hal McCoy says:

"This could be the scenario. Belisle into the rotation. Candidate Kirk Saarloos to the bullpen, where he has experience. Candidate Bobby Livingston to the minors as insurance because he has options."

It's all about who has options left. It breaks all ties.

Falls City Beer
03-19-2007, 10:07 AM
I wouldn't be surprised to see Saarloos and Belisle splitting time in the rotation slot--neither guy is known for durability, and neither has shown they have the ability to throw many innings as a starter, so I suspect they'll alternate as the swing 4/5th guy in the rotation.

RedsManRick
03-19-2007, 10:14 AM
Does that mean Lohse still has his spot in the rotation. Performance aside, isn't he dealing with an injury?

flyer85
03-19-2007, 10:20 AM
Does that mean Lohse still has his spot in the rotation. Performance aside, isn't he dealing with an injury?He pitched on Saturday against the Sox and looked healthy.

Red Leader
03-19-2007, 10:27 AM
Ahhhh, so the Reds are going to go with the "scrappy vet" lineup for the month of April and half of May until they dig themselves a hole. Then, changes will be made and the people that deserved to make the team out of spring training will be brought up.

I know this has been a long standing baseball tradition for a lot of teams, but I hate it.

coachw513
03-19-2007, 10:29 AM
It's certainly pleasant to consider for the first time in recent memory we're (potentially) frustrated that we are sending good pitchers down to AAA instead of being (definitely) frustrated that we are keeping bad pitchers up :clap:

BRM
03-19-2007, 10:30 AM
It's certainly pleasant to consider for the first time in recent memory we're (potentially) frustrated that we are sending good pitchers down to AAA instead of being (definitely) frustrated that we are keeping bad pitchers up :clap:

I think it's a little of both actually.

Red Leader
03-19-2007, 10:31 AM
I think it's a little of both actually.

Yep. Same as it ever was...

M2
03-19-2007, 10:57 AM
That leaves Burton and Coutlangus as the sleepers for the bullpen.

Kc61
03-19-2007, 11:09 AM
As a converted outfielder, Coutlangus' pitching has progressed well, and I think he will be a major league guy. This year, my guess is he is a lefty insurance policy in case Bray doesn't come back in time. I expect Cout to be in AAA.

With Burton's emergence, Salmon had no chance, really. Even with these demotions Reds still have too many relievers, so some maneuvering still left to go.

redsmetz
03-19-2007, 11:58 AM
Even considering that the 5th spot presently will go to either Belisle or Saarloos (or be shared by them), considering the six pitchers in our rotation mix, we've got an average age of 29.

Regarding the "oldsters", I don't think Cormier will be here long (if he's even here by Opening Day). That leaves Weathers and Stanton as the only old-timers in the pen (until, and if, Guardado comes back). Otherwise, all of the remaining folks on the 40 man roster are in their 20's. Now Hermanson, Santos and Wilson are still in the running for spots, but I think Wilson loses out and I think Santos only makes the club if he continues lights out.

I think it's very clear that we've got a plethora of pitchers for the first time in a long time. We are a far cry from the pathetic group we had last year. We're certainly not looking at the "scrappy vet" overall for the pitching staff.

Johnny Footstool
03-19-2007, 12:04 PM
With Burton's emergence, Salmon had no chance, really.

Burton is only a year younger than Salmon, but hasn't pitched above Double-A, and his one season at that level was mediocre.

Ah, spring training -- when 3 good weeks can erase all past performance.

BRM
03-19-2007, 12:05 PM
Ah, spring training -- when 3 good weeks can erase all past performance.

There's quite a bit of that going around this year.

lollipopcurve
03-19-2007, 12:08 PM
If both Burton and Hamilton make the team, will it be the first time a team has carried two Rule V picks?

Danny Serafini
03-19-2007, 12:51 PM
The Tigers carried 3 or 4 a few years ago when they were losing 100 games a year. They were going to stink anyways so why not stash a few and see what happens.

KronoRed
03-19-2007, 03:30 PM
Yep. Same as it ever was...

Darn you and your talking heads songs.;)

Doc. Scott
03-19-2007, 04:08 PM
I'm not sure why anyone would think the entire spring training competition isn't primarily shaped by who has options and who doesn't. Sure, the guys who can't hack it (Ligtenberg and Meadows, so far) get jettisoned, but once the club figures out who they want to keep, the Opening Day roster is primarily determined by who can go to the minors and who can't (or won't).

It's the same every single year. And it'll continue to be the same.

TRF
03-19-2007, 05:27 PM
I'm not sure why anyone would think the entire spring training competition isn't primarily shaped by who has options and who doesn't. Sure, the guys who can't hack it (Ligtenberg and Meadows, so far) get jettisoned, but once the club figures out who they want to keep, the Opening Day roster is primarily determined by who can go to the minors and who can't (or won't).

It's the same every single year. And it'll continue to be the same.

What is it that Cormier brings to the table that is SUPERIOR to Shack or Salmon?

Nothing. But those two have options left so we get to see an INFERIOR pitcher take the mound. An old INFERIOR pitcher to boot.

yippee.

edabbs44
03-19-2007, 05:34 PM
If both Burton and Hamilton make the team, will it be the first time a team has carried two Rule V picks?

Could be, but it isn't something to be especially proud about. ;)

KoryMac5
03-19-2007, 05:38 PM
I'm not sure why anyone would think the entire spring training competition isn't primarily shaped by who has options and who doesn't. Sure, the guys who can't hack it (Ligtenberg and Meadows, so far) get jettisoned, but once the club figures out who they want to keep, the Opening Day roster is primarily determined by who can go to the minors and who can't (or won't).

It's the same every single year. And it'll continue to be the same.

Exactly right. The Reds will play a wait and see game for the first few weeks of the season and if somebody doesn't live up to expectations they can always call up a replacement. Shack especially is used to this deal.

Doc. Scott
03-19-2007, 06:02 PM
What is it that Cormier brings to the table that is SUPERIOR to Shack or Salmon?

Nothing. But those two have options left so we get to see an INFERIOR pitcher take the mound. An old INFERIOR pitcher to boot.

yippee.

Plus Cormier is guaranteed $2.25 million. If he were an NRI, it might not be as difficult to just let him go and keep one of the younger guys.

Not disagreeing with you or anything- basically Cormier had the 2007 club made the minute he got that extension. It's either stay or trade.

Falls City Beer
03-19-2007, 06:08 PM
I'm not sure why anyone would think the entire spring training competition isn't primarily shaped by who has options and who doesn't. Sure, the guys who can't hack it (Ligtenberg and Meadows, so far) get jettisoned, but once the club figures out who they want to keep, the Opening Day roster is primarily determined by who can go to the minors and who can't (or won't).

It's the same every single year. And it'll continue to be the same.

This is why it is so important to bring talent to spring training, instead of waiting to see which turd becomes buoyant in the toilet bowl first.

That's the trouble with bringing chaff every year. You inevitably have these "contests" for roster spots which really aren't contests at all; just warmup sessions for other teams' MLB castoffs. The fewer "decisions" being made in spring training the better, IMO. If Maj and Bray were actually talented lights-out bullpenners, we wouldn't be sweating the notion of a useless Hermanson joining the roster.

For every action....

pedro
03-19-2007, 06:35 PM
Count me as someone who'd rather have Cormier than Shackelford.

Falls City Beer
03-19-2007, 06:39 PM
Count me as someone who'd rather have Cormier than Shackelford.

No fan should be asked to face this dilemma.

Kc61
03-19-2007, 06:43 PM
Burton is only a year younger than Salmon, but hasn't pitched above Double-A, and his one season at that level was mediocre.

Ah, spring training -- when 3 good weeks can erase all past performance.



Burton is Rule V. If he is worth keeping, he must stay at the major league level. You can't have 20 pitchers, so Salmon starts off at AAA.

MississippiRed
03-19-2007, 06:45 PM
Count me as someone who'd rather have Cormier than Shackelford.

I usually agree with what you say, Pedro, but not this time. At least Shackelford can be serviceable as a Loogy. I don't see Cormier having any usefulness.

MississippiRed
03-19-2007, 06:48 PM
Ah, spring training -- when 3 good weeks can erase all past performance.

I can't disagree with the sentiment, but it seems like these guys knew they were competing for a spot. So, whoever pitches the best in spring should get it. My problem is more with not making everyone pitch for a spot, just giving some spots to people no matter how poorly they pitch in the spring (or sometimes how poorly they pitch in previous years).

KoryMac5
03-19-2007, 07:35 PM
I usually agree with what you say, Pedro, but not this time. At least Shackelford can be serviceable as a Loogy. I don't see Cormier having any usefulness.

Countlangus has passed both of them on my depth chart.

OnBaseMachine
03-19-2007, 07:41 PM
Woohoo! Another veteran over top a young guy who can touch the mid 90's with his fastball! Just what we need. It won't be long before Jared Burton is shipped out.

If it were up to me, Brad Salmon, Jared Burton, and Jon Coutlangus would all make this ballclub.

Topcat
03-19-2007, 07:45 PM
They can absolutely not let Jared Burton go. He offers to much promise to ever be returned to the A's. his fastball has pop and most of our bullpen aside from Coffey and Bray can only reminisce about they days they had pop in there fastball.

Eric_Davis
03-19-2007, 07:48 PM
It's certainly pleasant to consider for the first time in recent memory we're (potentially) frustrated that we are sending good pitchers down to AAA instead of being (definitely) frustrated that we are keeping bad pitchers up :clap:


This is so true the story of Spring Training 2007.

pedro
03-19-2007, 08:00 PM
I usually agree with what you say, Pedro, but not this time. At least Shackelford can be serviceable as a Loogy. I don't see Cormier having any usefulness.


I hear what you're saying. I think Cormier has some usefulness but I wouldn't mind if they dumped him either.

Handofdeath
03-19-2007, 08:04 PM
What is it that Cormier brings to the table that is SUPERIOR to Shack or Salmon?

Nothing. But those two have options left so we get to see an INFERIOR pitcher take the mound. An old INFERIOR pitcher to boot.

yippee.

What does Cormier bring to the table? How about a long career? There is a reason why he's 39 and still pitching, the dude can still pitch. Check out his stats with the Phillies last season. He pitched in 43 games and had a 1.59 ERA. Even with the 4.50 ERA with the Reds (which in today's game is still respectable) his season ERA was 2.44. Is he old? Yes. Can he still pitch effectively? Yes.

Mario-Rijo
03-19-2007, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by Falls City Beer
If Maj and Bray were actually talented lights-out bullpenners, we wouldn't be sweating the notion of a useless Hermanson joining the roster.

I simply don't understand this kind of talk. Granted he has never been an All-Star or even a consistently above average pitcher, but too call someone useless who has the type of ability he has (*when healthy) is maddening. And that is the problem with some opinions, it's either black or white and no gray area.

But the truth is if he is healthy there isn't a better option on this current roster to close going into the season. He has some pretty recent experience, with a decent sample size, solid stuff and the make-up to close. And his last healthy season (only the year before last) he was lights out, and in a far better hitting league than this one.

Now if you wanna make the argument that he isn't fully healthy or that his stuff isn't what it once was, then fine go ahead but come with facts and not just talk. It's just talk unless you back it up, and when it's incessant talk w/o facts it's downright frustrating. In other words it's USELESS...drivel!

M2
03-19-2007, 08:10 PM
Count me as someone who'd rather have Cormier than Shackelford.

Me too. Shackelford's a beating waiting to happen when you send him out to the mound - easy to hit, BB prone. Maybe Cormier's done, but I like his chances of milking something more out of himself than of Shackelford finding something to milk.

Falls City Beer
03-19-2007, 08:51 PM
I simply don't understand this kind of talk. Granted he has never been an All-Star or even a consistently above average pitcher, but too call someone useless who has the type of ability he has (*when healthy) is maddening. And that is the problem with some opinions, it's either black or white and no gray area.

But the truth is if he is healthy there isn't a better option on this current roster to close going into the season. He has some pretty recent experience, with a decent sample size, solid stuff and the make-up to close. And his last healthy season (only the year before last) he was lights out, and in a far better hitting league than this one.

Now if you wanna make the argument that he isn't fully healthy or that his stuff isn't what it once was, then fine go ahead but come with facts and not just talk. It's just talk unless you back it up, and when it's incessant talk w/o facts it's downright frustrating. In other words it's USELESS...drivel!

He doesn't have velocity according to every single report offered. That's enough for me. If you think he can get away with tossing up 85 MPH fastballs, after the rest of the bullpen has fed opposing hitters the very same kind of fastball in the 6th, 7th, and 8th innings, then go ahead and believe in that tooth fairy.

I know what I saw last season when I watched a bullpen comprising carbon copy pitchers scuttle lead after lead after lead with their junkballing high-OBPA stuff.

I think I'd take a knuckleballer over a guy like Hermanson. At least he'd give a drastically different look out of the pen.

Mario-Rijo
03-19-2007, 09:07 PM
He doesn't have velocity according to every single report offered. That's enough for me. If you think he can get away with tossing up 85 MPH fastballs, after the rest of the bullpen has fed opposing hitters the very same kind of fastball in the 6th, 7th, and 8th innings, then go ahead and believe in that tooth fairy.

I know what I saw last season when I watched a bullpen comprising carbon copy pitchers scuttle lead after lead after lead with their junkballing high-OBPA stuff.

I think I'd take a knuckleballer over a guy like Hermanson. At least he'd give a drastically different look out of the pen.


And what about the reports about the fact that he missed practically an entire year? Or how about the reports that he reported to spring training later than every other pitcher? I thought I read somewhere that Guardado was only throwing around 87 when we acquired him last year, but that worked out ok for awhile. Reports, reports let's give the guy some leeway and see what might happen, huh. Have some faith, instead of just taking something and running with it. That's all I'm saying is that we are too quick to judge.

I read a post earlier where Flyer85 suggested that he had only one good year and that he was BABIP lucky, fair enough. But just how BABIP unlucky was he before that, perhaps for a change he had a team behind him that could field a daggone ball. And maybe with a little luck he will have a similar team behind him this year.

Look I'm with everyone else on the issue to some extent. If keeping Hermanson costs us a talent like Burton then I can live with someone else closing in the short term. And everyone assumes that it will go down that way. But I don't buy it, maybe it will be at the expense of Cormier and that I could live with.

But my main beef was that a few guys around here say a guy isn't worth anything and before we know it he's useless end of discussion. Kind of like Rich Aurilia last year. So let's give it some time, what can it hurt it's still spring training.

Falls City Beer
03-19-2007, 09:15 PM
So let's give it some time, what can it hurt it's still spring training.

Would you agree decisiveness is important in a GM and manager?

So what if he goes all Chris Hammond circa 2006 (likely comp)? Is an entire April, 15-20 innings of 6.50 ERA of Hermanson "getting it together," sufficient? Or would you wait to see what he looks like at the end of May?

Successful people cut through the crap and make decisions based upon a lot less data than you're asking for. If this organization can't evaluate Hermanson on his stuff and health history, then what good is it to have a scouting/evaluating staff?

I don't have all the answers, and I have no idea if anyone currently competing for a spot against Hermanson is necessarily better than he is, but I know for certain my trepidation at allowing a guy with no stuff and a balky back to get a free pass because he's "been there before."

Mario-Rijo
03-21-2007, 06:36 PM
Would you agree decisiveness is important in a GM and manager?

So what if he goes all Chris Hammond circa 2006 (likely comp)? Is an entire April, 15-20 innings of 6.50 ERA of Hermanson "getting it together," sufficient? Or would you wait to see what he looks like at the end of May?

Successful people cut through the crap and make decisions based upon a lot less data than you're asking for. If this organization can't evaluate Hermanson on his stuff and health history, then what good is it to have a scouting/evaluating staff?

I don't have all the answers, and I have no idea if anyone currently competing for a spot against Hermanson is necessarily better than he is, but I know for certain my trepidation at allowing a guy with no stuff and a balky back to get a free pass because he's "been there before."


I would agree that if Krivsky and Narron deem him and his stuff good enough to be on the 25 man roster, then I can live with it until Dustin proves them wrong. And if they indeed decide he is "Done" after all, I am fine with that as well.

But neither of those 2 have said anything that makes me wonder if he is done. Plenty of people on here have said those things but I would like to see him with my own eyes a handful of times before I make my mind up.

Velocity can sometimes take time to get back on par, when you are trying. And who's to say he has gotten comfortable enough with everything else this spring to start letting it rip. The only people who I have heard about having good velocity this spring are guys that are young and think they are throwing for their proverbial baseball lives. Veterans don't panic or come in lighting up the radar gun.

I ain't saying he ain't done. I'm just saying we need a guy who done what he done 2 years ago and if that means taking a lump or 2 to find out if he is that guy I would do it.

TRF
03-21-2007, 06:46 PM
What does Cormier bring to the table? How about a long career? There is a reason why he's 39 and still pitching, the dude can still pitch. Check out his stats with the Phillies last season. He pitched in 43 games and had a 1.59 ERA. Even with the 4.50 ERA with the Reds (which in today's game is still respectable) his season ERA was 2.44. Is he old? Yes. Can he still pitch effectively? Yes.

A long career? That's your argument?

His 2006 ERA was a complete mirage. He couldn't K your youngest kid. He's a breakdown begging for a ride with the first sucker that will let him in tha back of the truck.

Shackelford at least has value as a LOOGY.