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View Full Version : love to see the Reds release Milton and keep Burton!



redsfan4445
03-21-2007, 07:23 PM
I sure would like to see Milton gone.. he has to be the worst pitcher to make big money in Reds history!!. and with him gone, have both Belise and Saarloos in the rotation and have Livingston in AAA for quick rotation replacement and Burton in the bullpen.

Harang
Arroyo
Lohse
Belisle
Saarloos

better chances without Milton giving homers every game!!

reds44
03-21-2007, 07:28 PM
He makes too much money. Lukily, this is the last year of his deal. Also, I don't know if I like the idea of an all RHP starting staff.

Always Red
03-21-2007, 07:29 PM
I agree with most of what you say, but the Reds aren't going to just release him so he can go and pitch for the Nationals on their dime.

Best case scenario is the Reds can work some kind of a deal where they can get anything in return for him, even PTBNL, and not have to pay his entire salary, but only most of it.

Worst case scenario- Castellini decides to stick with him for the entire year. I think decision involving this much money aren't made without Castellini's agreement; in other words, WK doesn't just make the decision to cut loose $9 million himself.

Dracodave
03-21-2007, 07:30 PM
I dont think the idea of all right handed rotation is very good...

However, if you edit that rotation to this...

Harang
Arroyo
Loshe
Belisle
Livingston

Saarloos-Spot starter/long relief.

I think it's as good or better than with Milton.

reds44
03-21-2007, 07:31 PM
I dont think the idea of all right handed rotation is very good...

However, if you edit that rotation to this...

Harang
Arroyo
Loshe
Belisle
Livingston

Saarloos-Spot starter/long relief.

I think it's as good or better than with Milton.
Livingston is nothing but a junk baller. A less bad version of Michalak. I'd probably take Milton over Linvingston. At least uncle Milty gave us some QS's last year.

BRM
03-21-2007, 09:46 PM
I'll take the five best starters, regardless of what hand they throw with.

OnBaseMachine
03-21-2007, 10:36 PM
I'll take the five best starters, regardless of what hand they throw with.

Exactly how I feel.

marcshoe
03-21-2007, 10:58 PM
I agree with most of what you say, but the Reds aren't going to just release him so he can go and pitch for the Nationals on their dime.




I guess not. otoh, if someone in the division signed him, it would be worth it to have him pitch for that team on the Reds' dime. ;) They'd get a better bang for the buck than if they paid him the same amount of money to pitch for the Reds....:p:

LINEDRIVER
03-21-2007, 11:01 PM
The end of March is approaching and Milton seems to be in mid-season form. Marty reminded the listeners today that we are already seeing the same Eric Milton that we've watched for the last 2 seasons. Jeff Brantley commented that no matter what he throws up there....they hit it.

Brantley talked about how sometimes a vet pitcher doesnt get himself all worked up in these spring games with emotion and adrenaline but then added that when a guy gives up 20-something hits in 12-something innings, pride should be kicking in. Marty seemed to be questioning Milton's motivation by basically saying that a guy who has stunk up the joint for the last 2 yrs and in the last yr of a contract should be putting forth his best effort if he's capable. I thought to myself, "If he's capable? Now we are getting to the meat of the matter."

Personally, I am of the thinking that Milton cant pitch better because he is physically unable to. Seems to me that he has a knee problem that keeps him from pitching effectively in the major leagues. He probably has some good days but many more bad days thus accounting for my prediction of him going 6-15 in 2007 with a 6.50 ERA. Milton should be told to shut it down, pack a bag, and head for Cincinnati. Milton should then undergo a thorough examination at Doc Kremchek's medical complex as in scans, xrays, MRI's, polygraph testing (just kidding), and blood work while looking for inflammation, pulls, tears, broken bones, arthritis, etc. IMO, if he can be disabled or should be disabled, then he SHOULD BE DISABLED and to hell with the 8.5 million bucks. Running a guy like Milton out there every fifth day defies every principle of winning baseball. You might as well spot the opponent 5 runs.

Marty surprised me today by making a very good point in asking the question, "Why not make Milton the FIFTH starter?" The point being that Milton would then be the guy to be skipped over in the rotation when a skipping over is called for as in a day off, rained out games, quirks in the schedule, etc. Marty said he will ask Narron that question before Thursday's game. I fully expect Narron to dance around it the best he can by making references to Milton being a veteran, blah, blah, blah. I do not expect Narron to say anything controversial but I'll be listening.

KronoRed
03-21-2007, 11:03 PM
I'll take the five best starters, regardless of what hand they throw with.

Same.

A lefty starter is only useful if he can actually get people out.

Falls City Beer
03-21-2007, 11:08 PM
Hell, I don't care if he pitches with his taint.

TeamSelig
03-21-2007, 11:09 PM
I'm hoping he can have a good first half, we can pay part of his salary, and maybe get a long shot prospect

big boy
03-21-2007, 11:11 PM
Sometimes Milty gives the Reds 5 or 6 innings giving up 2 or 3 runs. Then Narron sends him out for another turn to get lit up. If Narron will take his 5 innings and run, it might not turn out so bad.

Falls City Beer
03-21-2007, 11:15 PM
Sometimes Milty gives the Reds 5 or 6 innings giving up 2 or 3 runs. Then Narron sends him out for another turn to get lit up. If Narron will take his 5 innings and run, it might not turn out so bad.

You can find guys to give you 5 innings anywhere. As a starter, Milton is either at or below replacement level.

coachw513
03-21-2007, 11:16 PM
The Milton era has been greatly discussed today so I forget who to credit with this very poignant line of thinking:

We've already made 1 mistake in signing Milton to the contract he's working under...but we have the ability to limit it to ONE mistake...mistake #2 is to run him out there every 5th day IF he's not one of our best 5 starters...

I don't know if Saarloos, Lohse and Belisle are all better options than Milton, though I think that is where we may be headed...but if so, then it's not a bad financial decision to DFA him...HE'S ALREADY GOING TO BE PAID...this should only be a baseball decision

The only bad decision would be for Narron to bet on us when Milton starts (oh wait, wrong thread :nono: )

Bray's health???...Maj's health???...Burton's potential???...Hermanson's legitimate health and stuff???...Milton's stuff???...

A very important 2 weeks in the big picture because those answers will impact WK's ability to make a proactive trade with a position of depth (quantity if not quality) of relievers to any of the number of teams that are 1-2 arms short in the pen...

I fear that Bray and Maj will both start on the DL...it alleviates the burden of the staff-overcrowding and would give us the ability to keep Burton, but I can only imagine the threads that will start when that becomes a reality :deadhorse

gonelong
03-21-2007, 11:20 PM
Marty surprised me today by making a very good point in asking the question, "Why not make Milton the FIFTH starter?" The point being that Milton would then be the guy to be skipped over in the rotation when a skipping over is called for as in day's off, quirks in the schedule, etc.

I fully expect that Marty made that point with the idea that Milton was the 5th best starter and he'd be skipped ... not with the idea that given Milton's physical issues skipping a few starts might help to make him more effective.

GL

MartyFan
03-21-2007, 11:25 PM
What do you suppose the potential of dealing Milton is?

I am pretty sure the Nats would not be a fit since Special K and Pants may not be in the middle of a love affair...so...what other teams are looking for pitching that may be able to take Milton?

TOBTTReds
03-21-2007, 11:35 PM
What do you suppose the potential of dealing Milton is?

I am pretty sure the Nats would not be a fit since Special K and Pants may not be in the middle of a love affair...so...what other teams are looking for pitching that may be able to take Milton?

I think any GM that makes such an awful signing like this should take the contract and player with him if he moves teams. Therefore, Milton to the Brews with DanO.

Chip R
03-21-2007, 11:40 PM
I'm hoping he can have a good first half, we can pay part of his salary, and maybe get a long shot prospect


That's a good idea in theory. However, if he does pitch well and the Reds are no worse off than they were last year at the deadline, you really think they are going to trade away a starter who is pitching well? Hell, they may even sign him to an extention. That's what they did with Paul Wilson and they were having a lousy year.

TheWalls
03-21-2007, 11:43 PM
My optimism for this year springs from the fact that for the first time in a decade the owner and GM both have the long danglies to actually give Miltie the heave ho by Memorial Day and find a way to keep Burton because he has better stuff than the "experienced" retreads.

Dracodave
03-21-2007, 11:47 PM
What about fringe starters for Milton?

John Rheinecker types. Too old for triple a, but never really getting a chance at the majors. We'd be getting a cheaper, younger, and healthier verision of replacement value. Thats all I can honestly say I want.

I am just throwing this out there, I really doubt there is a GM who would honestly pull a trade for Milton. I just want to get opinions.

Plus, as mentioned about Miltons knee.

Compare his two deliveries, they are worlds apart.

LINEDRIVER
03-21-2007, 11:57 PM
Can the Reds trade Milton? I doubt it because I doubt that he could really, really, honestly, honestly pass a physical. Ya think Krivsky would try to peddle damaged goods since the ongoing Gary Majewski debacle?

I think the Reds know Milton's not physically able to compete on the major league level. They dont know what to do with him, at least for now. It's just Spring Training and they are hoping for a miracle. Brantley commented today that another start or two and the bell rings. Marty and Jeff then figured Milty would get two more starts before Opening Day.

MississippiRed
03-22-2007, 12:03 AM
We've already made 1 mistake in signing Milton to the contract he's working under...but we have the ability to limit it to ONE mistake...mistake #2 is to run him out there every 5th day IF he's not one of our best 5 starters...


Coach, I said it during the game thread today, but I certainly wasn't the first. I can't believe the Reds front office isn't at least considering this. He looks like he needs a fork stuck in him.

Cyclone792
03-22-2007, 12:08 AM
Here's a quick Milton summary since he's been with the Reds in 2005 and 2006 combined ...


Innings 339
DIPS ERA 5.24

HR/9 1.83
K/9 5.65
BB/9 2.50

I don't care whether the Reds can or cannot trade Milton. What I do know is that he needs to get out of the rotation immediately, because he isn't doing the team any favors being in the rotation. Right now it doesn't matter to me much if he was in the bullpen or just DFA'd (though I'd definitely vote for DFA'd) since the first order of business is just getting him out of the rotation somehow. Just think about what happens to a guy who gives up nearly two home runs per nine innings while maybe striking out five guys during those same nine innings. The real quick answer is he gets hammered, and that's Eric Milton in a nutshell.

The guy has a HR/9 of 1.83 in his 339 innings in a Reds uniform. For those scoring at home, that's 69 home runs allowed in only 339 innings. Given that he has a degenerative knee condition that is simply getting worse instead of better, his K/9 numbers are much more likely to get worse before they get better.

Also, don't forget that since 2005, Eric Milton's allowed a slugging percentage of .514. The NL average slugging percentage is around .425. That's pretty remarkable for a guy to allow nearly 90 more points in slugging percentage to the average hitter, but that's what Eric Milton's accomplished in his last three years.

If the Reds feel it necessary to keep him because of his salary, then send Milton to the bullpen in a mop-up role where he can pitch one or two innings at a time without the need to pace himself. If he knows he's only going to face a limited number of batters and throw a limited number of pitchers, he may be able to gain a few ticks of velocity. Who knows, perhaps Milton can throw up a 4.50 DIPS ERA in 50-60 relief innings. I'm not sure about anyone else, but I'd certainly take a 4.50 DIPS ERA out of Milton in 50-60 innings over a 5+ DIPS ERA disaster in 150+ innings.

In the end, it comes down to winning games. And the key question is simply, would you rather win more with Milton pitching less, or would you rather win less with Milton pitching more?

I know what I'd rather have.

LoganBuck
03-22-2007, 12:19 AM
If the Reds feel it necessary to keep him because of his salary, then send Milton to the bullpen in a mop-up role where he can pitch one or two innings at a time without the need to pace himself. If he knows he's only going to face a limited number of batters and throw a limited number of pitchers, he may be able to gain a few ticks of velocity. Who knows, perhaps Milton can throw up a 4.50 DIPS ERA in 50-60 relief innings. I'm not sure about anyone else, but I'd certainly take a 4.50 DIPS ERA out of Milton in 50-60 innings over a 5+ DIPS ERA disaster in 150+ innings.

In the end, it comes down to winning games. And the key question is simply, would you rather win more with Milton pitching less, or would you rather win less with Milton pitching more?

I know what I'd rather have.

He can do that and pinch hit. :beerme:

Dracodave
03-22-2007, 12:21 AM
I dig the fact that he gives up the long ball. It's what we pay ticket prices as fans to see right?

Wait a second...

:bang: :bang:

roby
03-22-2007, 12:37 AM
What do you suppose the potential of dealing Milton is?

I am pretty sure the Nats would not be a fit since Special K and Pants may not be in the middle of a love affair...so...what other teams are looking for pitching that may be able to take Milton?

Maybe the punishment for Bowden sending the Reds damaged goods should be that they have to take Milton!

MartyFan
03-22-2007, 01:53 AM
I was just reading an article by Ken Rosenthal on FOXSPORTS.com and loved this quote from Ron Washington the new manager in Texas.


Washington, an old-school, tough-love type, already is calling out pitchers who fail to throw strikes, but without embarrassing them publicly. He made such a point recently about right-hander Robinson Tejeda, the Rangers' projected No. 4 starter.

"Those guys in Oakland were no more talented that these guys," he says of his pitchers. "But the guys in Oakland, they trusted their stuff. Trusting your stuff is more important than anything else. They don't give a damn about getting hit. They keep throwing it in the strike zone."

I think Burton and Saarloos and Harang all come with that approach. I think that is what this team is missing withit's young pitchers.

I'd like to see Special K package a couple of the older pitchers to the BoSox who are looking for RP help and see what we can get in return.

I feel a trade coming on...I have no idea what it will be but there is something brewing...more than coffee and white castles from earlier tonight.

HumnHilghtFreel
03-22-2007, 02:00 AM
Hell, I don't care if he pitches with his taint.

Now that would be impressive, if not disturbing.

I've said before I'd like to see Milton as the 5th starter and I'm glad I'm not the only one. The extra days off would definitely do him some good, I think. And if they didn't at least he's just not out there as frequently.

Red in Atl
03-22-2007, 02:10 AM
They should make Jimbo take Milton off our hands as an agreement in the grievance Wayne filed (or is going to file, or never will file) and the Nats pay him in full....

Ron Madden
03-22-2007, 04:52 AM
That's a good idea in theory. However, if he does pitch well and the Reds are no worse off than they were last year at the deadline, you really think they are going to trade away a starter who is pitching well? Hell, they may even sign him to an extention. That's what they did with Paul Wilson and they were having a lousy year.

Sad but true. Chips post would be par for the course with how this organization thinks and has worked for far too long now.

redsmetz
03-22-2007, 06:45 AM
I lean towards those who say that Milton is probably untradeable and I just don't see this club eating that much salary. I agree with Cyclone though and thought this yesterday, move Milton to the Bullpen. Another remote possibility might be he's not fully recovered and he goes on the DL. I would not look forward to trotting him out there every 5th day.

I also agree that it would seem logical that some trade will ensue in the coming two weeks to relieve the logjam.

MrCinatit
03-22-2007, 07:24 AM
In my continued struggle for positive thinking, I see several win-win situations for the Reds concerning Milton:
1) He is in a contract year, and pitches great, helping the club to a playoff spot.
2) He is in a contract year, pitches great, and is traded to another club for shining prospects.
3) He sucks so bad, the Reds figure "Might as well pay him to lose for someone else, rather than lose for us" and release him around the mid-point of the year.
4) He goes on the DL, and we don't have to worry about seeing him suck. Yeah, he will be getting paid to be on the DL - but at least he won't suck.
I'm hoping one of these ends up playing out.
But, I would not lay bets down on it lol.

Ravenlord
03-22-2007, 07:28 AM
i think Milton could be a slightly above average reliever or exceptional LOOGY. either way, not worth his contract. you might be able to turn him into a younger Danny Graves and flip him for something useful before the break.

Ltlabner
03-22-2007, 07:48 AM
Sad but true. Chips post would be par for the course with how this organization thinks and has worked for far too long now.

Hopefully the Milton issue will be avoided as your fears of them bringing Wilson north were.

mth123
03-22-2007, 07:50 AM
Here's a quick Milton summary since he's been with the Reds in 2005 and 2006 combined ...


Innings 339
DIPS ERA 5.24

HR/9 1.83
K/9 5.65
BB/9 2.50

I don't care whether the Reds can or cannot trade Milton. What I do know is that he needs to get out of the rotation immediately, because he isn't doing the team any favors being in the rotation. Right now it doesn't matter to me much if he was in the bullpen or just DFA'd (though I'd definitely vote for DFA'd) since the first order of business is just getting him out of the rotation somehow. Just think about what happens to a guy who gives up nearly two home runs per nine innings while maybe striking out five guys during those same nine innings. The real quick answer is he gets hammered, and that's Eric Milton in a nutshell.

The guy has a HR/9 of 1.83 in his 339 innings in a Reds uniform. For those scoring at home, that's 69 home runs allowed in only 339 innings. Given that he has a degenerative knee condition that is simply getting worse instead of better, his K/9 numbers are much more likely to get worse before they get better.

Also, don't forget that since 2005, Eric Milton's allowed a slugging percentage of .514. The NL average slugging percentage is around .425. That's pretty remarkable for a guy to allow nearly 90 more points in slugging percentage to the average hitter, but that's what Eric Milton's accomplished in his last three years.

If the Reds feel it necessary to keep him because of his salary, then send Milton to the bullpen in a mop-up role where he can pitch one or two innings at a time without the need to pace himself. If he knows he's only going to face a limited number of batters and throw a limited number of pitchers, he may be able to gain a few ticks of velocity. Who knows, perhaps Milton can throw up a 4.50 DIPS ERA in 50-60 relief innings. I'm not sure about anyone else, but I'd certainly take a 4.50 DIPS ERA out of Milton in 50-60 innings over a 5+ DIPS ERA disaster in 150+ innings.

In the end, it comes down to winning games. And the key question is simply, would you rather win more with Milton pitching less, or would you rather win less with Milton pitching more?

I know what I'd rather have.

I have to admit that I'm convinced now. I had hopes that Milton would have a decent spring and the Reds could trade him for some Salary relief. I think a $3 or $4 Million relief from the obligation is more valuable than anyone that the Reds could run out there in Milton's spot not named Bailey (who isn't ready). I'm not real enamored with any of the options to replace Milton and personally think that Saarloos and Lohse could just be equally as bad. As a result I have been saying that the Reds should keep Milton and try to trade him, but the facts Cyclone presented above coupled with the reality of this post below have gotten me to come around.


That's a good idea in theory. However, if he does pitch well and the Reds are no worse off than they were last year at the deadline, you really think they are going to trade away a starter who is pitching well? Hell, they may even sign him to an extention. That's what they did with Paul Wilson and they were having a lousy year.

I don't want the Reds to lose any of the younger possibilities in order to keep Milton (or Cormier or Weathers or Stanton or...) so if releasing Milton avoids losing a younger, cheaper guy who might still have a chance to fill some kind of role, then release him. If the Reds are just going to give his spot to Saarloos then they may as well keep him. The way I see it right now the choice is coming down to a soft tossing lefty fly ball pitcher who gives up too many HRs, doesn't K enough and is likely to have an ERA in mid 5s or a soft tossing RH ground ball pitcher who gives up too many HR, doesn't K enough, walks too many and is likely to have an ERA in the mid 5s.

I really don't see any pitcher that is in the mix right now that is any more likely to pitch well than Milton (except for Belisle who should be in the rotation whether Milton is released or not), but I do like the idea of keeping the more youthful, who at least may have more trade value simply by being cheaper, over the same old suck. And as Chip says, trading Milton for salary relief will never really happen. If he pitches well for a stretch, the Reds will just keep him. I'm pretty sure of that fact now. May as well release him.

Ltlabner
03-22-2007, 08:06 AM
I have to admit that I'm convinced now.

Well, I have dogedly defended keeping Milton around but after his ST start thus far, I'm about in the same boat mth. I had really hoped he'd come in with a decent to strong spring, and would have some good games (mixed in with the disasters, of course) and get us to the ASB.

Im not ready to light fire to a pile of money as yet. Try 5th starter. Try the bullpen. Reason is, I'm still not convicned Belisle is going to come in and do any great shakes better than what Milton will give you. Instead of a fair number of good starts with a few disasters, IMO Belisle will give you a bunch of mediocre games and end up with simular numbers.

Point is DFA'ing Milton sounds all trendy and all. But if you do so, and Belisle gives you the same or only marginally better pefromance, now you are paying two people to get the same performance. Toss around 'sunk cost' all day long but would you pay two people to get the same performance as one at your place of business? Especially if you are paying two people to get the same bad performance? (Now, if they land a proven performer via trade or BCast opening up the wallet a little further, that's a different story. Then it's bye bye Milton).

So while I've given up on Milton, I'd say try him in some different spots where he might have a better chance of being successfull and at least recoginizing some return on that investment. But, if those attemps fail and he continues to hurt the team. I'd say it's time to pile up the money and light the matches.

berryluther
03-22-2007, 10:07 AM
He makes too much money. Lukily, this is the last year of his deal. Also, I don't know if I like the idea of an all RHP starting staff.

I don't either but I would rather have all righties than someone as ineffective as Milton (23 hits and three home runs in 13 2/3 innings ).

Krivs needs to do something we cant have him dragging this team down. Not when we have some good young pitchers waiting for a shot. I know its 9million, but maybe a difference in 10 games makes this team a contender.

We need to attach him to one of the players teams are interested in we could deal him with Freel and maybe take on another players expiring contract that wouldnt be a detriment to the team.

MississippiRed
03-22-2007, 10:15 AM
Sad but true. Chips post would be par for the course with how this organization thinks and has worked for far too long now.

Let's remember, though, that we do have a new regime in place now. I expect they are having the same discussion about Milton that we are having. I'm willing to give them the benifit of the doubt, at least somewhat. I remember some people on RZ saying that if Griffey started in CF on opening day, then that would tell us a lot (negatively) about Krivs and Narron. Well, Griffey will be in RF if he's there at all, so they passed that test. They passed the Paul Wilson test as well, as someone mentioned above. Maybe they can pass the Milton test as well. If management passes a couple more of these tests, the Reds may just have a playoff-caliber team.

BRM
03-22-2007, 11:19 AM
Marty said he was going to ask Narron about making Milton the #5 today, right? I can't wait to hear Narron's response.

Falls City Beer
03-22-2007, 11:21 AM
Marty said he was going to ask Narron about making Milton the #5 today, right? I can't wait to hear Narron's response.

Do they broadcast those pre-game interviews the way they do during the season?

durl
03-22-2007, 11:27 AM
Marty said he was going to ask Narron about making Milton the #5 today, right? I can't wait to hear Narron's response.

That was a question I was planning to ask. (Forgive me if it's been discussed before and I've missed it.)

Why is Milton the #3 guy? I can understand the Reds' thinking that they HAVE to use him because of his salary, but if some of the other guys are far more capable than Milton, they should be ahead of him in the rotation. I've never been really down on Milton because I hoped he would turn out to be a good arm for the Reds. However, after all this time and seeing his Spring Training performance, I can't see how the Reds can keep him so high up in the rotation.

BRM
03-22-2007, 11:27 AM
Do they broadcast those pre-game interviews the way they do during the season?

I don't know. That's a good question. We may have to wait for the game broadcast and hope Marty brings it up.

bucksfan2
03-22-2007, 11:34 AM
Everyone says you notice a differenct in Milton when his knee is fully healthy and when it is not. Why when they know he is pitching differently because of the knee do they keep running him back out there. Put him on the DL to hopefully get that knee healthy for a period of time. Its a shame to think that the reds keep running him out there when they know that he doesn't give them the best chance to win.

membengal
03-22-2007, 11:36 AM
Do they broadcast those pre-game interviews the way they do during the season?

If you have XM, the pre-game interviews are available on 173 before the game gets blacked out for whatever the normal 176-189 game coverage kicks in.

Same deal for WLW on the net, pre-game including the Narron interview no problem, only blacked out for game coverage.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
03-22-2007, 11:51 AM
Marty said he was going to ask Narron about making Milton the #5 today, right? I can't wait to hear Narron's response.
Jerry's gonna tell us how he thinks Milty will be an important part of this rotation no matter where he is slotted in due to his experience, and will stay far away from actually answering the question asked by Marty. Remember if we know Marty's gonna ask a question, Jerry knows he's gonna ask which means he has all morning to come up with the craftiest damn answer in town.

Redsland
03-22-2007, 01:10 PM
Personally, I am of the thinking that Milton cant pitch better because he is physically unable to. Seems to me that he has a knee problem that keeps him from pitching effectively in the major leagues.... Milton should then undergo a thorough examination at Doc Kremchek's medical complex as in scans, xrays, MRI's, polygraph testing (just kidding), and blood work while looking for inflammation, pulls, tears, broken bones, arthritis, etc. IMO, if he can be disabled or should be disabled, then he SHOULD BE DISABLED and to hell with the 8.5 million bucks.
Assuming the Reds were able to find something that allowed them to disable him for the season, and assuming the contract is insured (it might not be), then the Reds would only have to pay half (three months) of his salary.

That's looking like quite a bargain to me.

bounty37h
03-22-2007, 01:17 PM
Hell, I don't care if he pitches with his taint.

^that is certainly an interesting variation of the spit ball, replaced by a s_it ball

Roy Tucker
03-22-2007, 01:21 PM
Yeah, you look up "sunk costs" in the dictionary and Milton's picture is next to it.

What I can only hope is that Narron/Krivsky have their eyes open and are seeing Milton for what he is today. Yeah, the guy is a warrior and wants to be out there every 5th day, but his body won't let him do that effectively anymore. And he's been that way for a couple seasons now, but this ST he seems to have sunk even lower. Plain and simple.

If Narron discusses Milton as the #5 starter, then there is hope they are seeing the reality of Milton 2007. There is a fair chance he could be relatively effective out of the bullpen for an inning or two. But his days as a starter are over.

Kc61
03-22-2007, 01:38 PM
I admire the job Krivsky did this off-season without spending big dollars. But he only gets a B+ because Milton is still in the rotation. Milton and GABP are just not a good combo. Also, when Milton did pitch well last year (he almost never did in 2005), he often faded in the 4th or 5th inning.

I'm not saying the Milton situation is easy to resolve. He is obviously very hard to move to another team and it is also hard to sit him down, while paying him a big salary. But if Krivsky wants an A he needs to fix this.

BRM
03-22-2007, 01:41 PM
I'd be content for now if he was just made the 5th starter. That would at least limit the number of times he took the mound.

Ltlabner
03-22-2007, 02:21 PM
Yeah, you look up "sunk costs" in the dictionary and Milton's picture is next to it.

Everybody keeps throwing around 'sunk costs' and it's true. The amount of his contract should not be considered when running him out to the mound. The money is gone.

But what people overlook is minimizing the damage at this point. In a perfect vacume the sunk cost of his contract should be ignored, in the context of the business world, smart business people seek to minimize the economic loss of a previous bad decision while trying to not be biased by sunk costs.

So don't run him out there every 5th day simply because of his contract. But DO seek to find the option that provides the most value (tangable or intagible) to the team. There are all sorts of options where some return (other team pays part of his sallary, player in return, prospect) could be realized to minimize the loss.

DFA is the 'nuclear' option whereby $9m goes up in smoke. Wouldn't it be better to rid our selves of Milton and only burn up say $6m? Or we burn up $8m but get a prospect in return? Or we try him in the bullpen and he eaks out servicable year (although it's hard to imagine getting $9m worth from the bullpen).

So it's a little more complex than just tossing out 'sunk cost' and sending him packing. Then there's that nagging question or just exactly is going to jump in and put up at least mid 4's ERA for the entire season?

HUHUH
03-22-2007, 02:56 PM
Before today's game, Marty asked Narron about Milton being the fifth starter.
Narron mumbled something about " we'll probably only need our fifth starter 4 or 5 times in April, so we're looking for somebody in that spot that can work out of the bullpen and give us some long relief. Milton doesn't have any experience in the bullpen, so that rules him out."

How lame.
I imagine he heard that the question was coming and sat up all night thinking of this lame explanation. Next time Marty, don't give away the question beforehand!

BRM
03-22-2007, 03:31 PM
Before today's game, Marty asked Narron about Milton being the fifth starter.
Narron mumbled something about " we'll probably only need our fifth starter 4 or 5 times in April, so we're looking for somebody in that spot that can work out of the bullpen and give us some long relief. Milton doesn't have any experience in the bullpen, so that rules him out."


Seems like spring training would be a good time to start getting adjusted to it.

dfs
03-22-2007, 04:23 PM
Then there's that nagging question of just exactly who is going to jump in and put up at least mid 4's ERA for the entire season?
Right.

Like it or not, Eric Milton was the reds third most valuable starting pitcher last year. As a starter he outpitched Michalak, Lohse, Claussen, Ramerez, Kim, Germano Mays AND Williams. Yes, this year's crop of starting candidates seem to be better than that, but you have to give Milton credit for what he has done.

With respect to his free agent class, Milton's contract represents value. Matt Clement? Jared Wright? Chris Bensen.....Heck, Bensen probably ended up being the best of them, but Milton is actually 2 or 3 on the list. Probably 3 behind Bensen and Lieber. Things have just gotten more expensive since then. It's scary and a cautionary tale about the "value" of free agent pitching.

Before we go discarding Milton for magic beans declaring he was a sunk cost, let's get a couple of decent starts from his replacement-to-be. That sunk cost represents value of a certain sort.

Ron Madden
03-23-2007, 03:58 AM
Hopefully the Milton issue will be avoided as your fears of them bringing Wilson north were.

I said in another thread "Wilson is a good guy but his arm is gone."

Don't remember sayin' anything about him coming north.

Ltlabner
03-23-2007, 07:09 AM
I said in another thread "Wilson is a good guy but his arm is gone."

Don't remember sayin' anything about him coming north.

Sorry, you didn't. I just saw that it was someone else who was worried that might happen. Dang, that's twice in 2 days I've done that.

I need some ginko or something.

Roy Tucker
03-23-2007, 08:51 AM
So it's a little more complex than just tossing out 'sunk cost' and sending him packing.

If you would have included the rest of my post in your quote, that's what I said too.

DoogMinAmo
03-23-2007, 09:10 AM
I admire the job Krivsky did this off-season without spending big dollars. But he only gets a B+ because Milton is still in the rotation. Milton and GABP are just not a good combo. Also, when Milton did pitch well last year (he almost never did in 2005), he often faded in the 4th or 5th inning.

I'm not saying the Milton situation is easy to resolve. He is obviously very hard to move to another team and it is also hard to sit him down, while paying him a big salary. But if Krivsky wants an A he needs to fix this.

I do not know if this is possible, but I would love to see an inning by inning breakdown of his ERA. I agree, he seemed to do fine for 4-5 innings, then the wheels would come off when everyone except for Narron knew not to put him back in for the top of the next inning. The downside, I suppose, of being a "player's manager."

marcshoe
03-23-2007, 10:25 AM
What are the reasons that he can't work out of the bullpen? Is he unable to get ready quickly, or is this just an assumption? Long relief (but definitely not late innings) would seem a good fit.

BRM
03-23-2007, 10:26 AM
What are the reasons that he can't work out of the bullpen? Is he unable to get ready quickly, or is this just an assumption? Long relief (but definitely not late innings) would seem a good fit.

Narron said yesterday that since Milton has never worked out of the pen, he's not an option or a good fit for pen work.

Big Daddy P
03-23-2007, 10:41 AM
I'd rather have Richard Burton than Uncle Milty. At least this guy had enough going for him that he got jiggy with Liz and shtupped her but good.

Maybe Levar Burton with those bad Star Trek goggles he used to wear ?

Yeah, that's the ticket.

PuffyPig
03-23-2007, 10:41 AM
The idea of the 5th starter being skipped for off days only works when the off day occurs on the 5th starters start, a 20% possibility. So, at the end of the day, the 5th starter pretty much gets his 30 starts in anyway. There's little difference who gets slotted 1-5 in the long run, as it eventually gets out of order dues to injuries, skipped starts etc.

Always Red
03-23-2007, 11:29 AM
Narron said yesterday that since Milton has never worked out of the pen, he's not an option or a good fit for pen work.

A good followup question would be to point put that Milty doesn't seem to be a good option or fit for the starting rotation, either.

I've been a defender of Milty's in the past a bit, mainly because he seemed to pitch better when his knee was right, but this team has better options available now, no matter what the cost.

If he's hurt again, or if his knee is chronic, DL him; 60 day list if necessary. If not hurt, then trade him for whatever you can, even a PTBNL, and pay 90% of his salary if necessary.

But this team should not take losses just because they've been paid for ahead of time.