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OnBaseMachine
03-24-2007, 09:19 AM
Here I am all optimistic about the 2007 season, and then Narron tosses out the idea of Dunn batting 6th. Horrible idea. I'm afraid Narron is going to hold this team back from maxing out it's potential.

Narron intends to break up left-handed bats
Reds notebook
BY JOHN FAY | JFAY@ENQUIRER.COM

ST. PETERSBURG, Fla. - Ken Griffey Jr.'s absence has kept Reds manager Jerry Narron from trotting out his projected Opening Day lineup this spring.

That hasn't kept him from penciling out lineups.

"I've been messing with what it would be like with Josh Hamilton in Griffey's spot," he said.


That spot might not be the No. 3 spot, where Griffey hit 99 times in 104 starts last year.

Narron wants to split up the left-handers - Griffey or Hamilton, Adam Dunn and Scott Hatteberg. Narron prefers doing it with them in the second, fourth and sixth spots.

"Then it comes down to Hatteberg or Dunn in the two-hole, Griffey fourth or Dunn fourth, and Hatteberg, Griff or Dunn sixth," he said. "That's the only way you can do it."

Ryan Freel, a right-handed hitter, will lead off. Brandon Phillips probably will hit in the third spot and Edwin Encarnacion in the fifth spot.

"With Brandon, you know he's going to give you good at-bats," Narron said. "I like the idea of his speed up top. Eddie has a chance to be a very good RBI guy in the fifth or even third hole."

David Ross and Alex Gonzalez will bat seventh and eighth. Narron isn't sure who will be in which spot.

Another objective of Narron's is to keep things more stable than last year, when the Reds had a National League-high 140 different lineups.

"I've love to have a set lineup every day," he said, "where Doug Flynn plays once every two weeks for Joe Morgan or Davey Concepcion."

BRAY MATTER: Left-hander Bill Bray, who was coming off shoulder stiffness, took a ball off the tip of his finger in fielding drills. He won't throw again until at least Monday.

The Reds are preparing for the possibility of Bray starting the year on the disabled list. He'll be held out of "A" games, so he can be put on the list retroactively.

"First thing you do in a case like that is pitch him in a minor-league game and see how he's doing," general manager Wayne Krivsky said. "That's the first step."

By starting Bray on the DL, it would open a spot - at least temporarily - for Rule 5 pick Jared Burton.

But don't jump to that conclusion.

"We're not saying Bray won't be with us Opening Day," Narron said. "He's definitely not out. But we're getting close to making a decision."

The Reds are saying they like Burton, a 25-year-old right-hander with a 90 mph slider.

"He's shown a great arm," Narron said. "He's shown the ability to throw strikes. He's shown movement with his pitches. He's created a couple of jams, but he's been able to get out of them."

GRIFFEY UPDATE: Griffey took batting practice Friday. There's a possibility that he'll play today, but don't read too much into that.

"There's a possibility every day for everybody," Narron said. "We'll see how he feels when he comes in."

PITCHING SCHEDULE: Eric Milton will start in a minor-league game Monday. Left-hander Bobby Livingston will start Monday's game against Boston.

Livingston is competing for the fifth spot in the rotation.

INJURY REPORT: The Reds brought seven non-roster players to St. Pete to fill in for injured players. One of the non-roster guys, Enrique Cruz, started at third base.

Here's the injury update:

Jerry Gil (elbow) had an MRI done.

Javier Valentin's hamstring is tight. He'll be available maybe today, probably Sunday.

Bubba Crosby (calf) was available to play.

Hatteberg (tight groin) could be available today.

Gary Majewski (shoulder) will take two days off, then throw Sunday.

Juan Castro (elbow) was used as the designated hitter Friday night.

Bill Bray took a ball off a finger on his pitching hand in fielding drills. Adam Dunn (flu) was at the complex but did not play Friday.

CONINE TO RETURN: Jeff Conine, who left camp to attend the funeral of his father-in-law, will return to camp tonight. He probably will play Monday.

SEEN AND HEARD: Non-roster players Mike Flannery, Wes Wilkerson, Drew Anderson, Paul Janish, Dan Conway, Tyrell Godwin, Enrique Cruz and Cody Strait made the trip to help the depleted Reds. "Good for them," GM Wayne Krivsky said. "It's another day of big-league meal money." In most cases, that's an extra $35.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070324/SPT04/703240443/1071

Ltlabner
03-24-2007, 09:26 AM
Well, the good news is that with as much as Narron tinkers with the line up, Dunn woln't be in the 6th spot for long.

Then again, the bad news is that with as much as Narron tinkers with the line up, nobody knows where they will be for long.

Ltlabner
03-24-2007, 09:33 AM
Jerry Gil (elbow) had an MRI done.

Javier Valentin's hamstring is tight. He'll be available maybe today, probably Sunday.

Bubba Crosby (calf) was available to play.

Hatteberg (tight groin) could be available today.

Gary Majewski (shoulder) will take two days off, then throw Sunday.

Juan Castro (elbow) was used as the designated hitter Friday night.

Bill Bray took a ball off a finger on his pitching hand in fielding drills. Adam Dunn (flu) was at the complex but did not play Friday.


I know I gripe about the Reds medical staff a lot, but with the number of tight muscles, hamstrings, calfs etc going on you guys think the suspect quality of the Reds medical staff plays a role? I mean, if they couldn't figure out that Eric Milton was injured last year, is it a strech to think they aren't setting up good streching/training excersize programs/regimens which results in these various injuries?

Obivously, they have nothing to do with Dunn's flu or prexisting shoulder issues with Majic, and now Bray (then again, they might not be helping those arms heal correctly either).

OnBaseMachine
03-24-2007, 09:54 AM
Edwin Encarnacion - Third Baseman Mar. 23 - 10:35 pm et

Reds manager Jerry Narron said he's leaning toward batting left-handers second, fourth and sixth, which would likely put Brandon Phillips in the third spot and Edwin Encarnacion fifth.

Yeah, lineups don't make much of a difference over the course of the year, but Narron and the Pirates' Jim Tracy are the worst about costing their teams runs with their formations. The Reds might have their two best hitters -- Encarnacion and Adam Dunn -- hitting fifth and sixth respectively. It's more likely that Dunn will hit cleanup initially, but we'll never underestimate Narron's inability to put guys where they belong. It doesn't help that the team has insisted on respecting Ken Griffey Jr. by keeping him high in the lineup. If a left-hander needs to bat sixth, he's probably the best choice.

http://rotoworld.com/content/clubhouse_news.aspx?sport=MLB&majteam=CIN

Hoosier Red
03-24-2007, 10:03 AM
I know I gripe about the Reds medical staff a lot, but with the number of tight muscles, hamstrings, calfs etc going on you guys think the suspect quality of the Reds medical staff plays a role? I mean, if they couldn't figure out that Eric Milton was injured last year, is it a strech to think they aren't setting up good streching/training excersize programs/regimens which results in these various injuries?

Obivously, they have nothing to do with Dunn's flu or prexisting shoulder issues with Majic, and now Bray (then again, they might not be helping those arms heal correctly either).

I think you'd be surprised at the number of guys around the league who have sore muscles right now. Generally its not the doctors fault. After one of the first years of Wood/Prior going down to season ending injury, the Cubs fired their whole medical staff. The number of injuries nearly doubled the next year.

corkedbat
03-24-2007, 10:34 AM
I'm already not missing Narron and he;s still here. :dancingco

RedsManRick
03-24-2007, 10:34 AM
Narron's logic makes me physically ill. Here is the 2-6 part of the lineup in decscending order of OPS vL

Dunn: .241/.359/.477 (.836)
EE: .248/.368/.460 (.828)
Phillips vL: .299/.351/.423 (.774)
Conine: .269/.352.419 (.771)
Griffey: .232/.300/.461 (.761)


So, if you take OPS as a good proxy for overall production, Brandon Phillips is at best the best #3 option. The idea of EE and Dunn batting 5th and 6th just shows how clueless Narron is. Griffey gets eaten for breakfast by lefties. It should be:

2 EE
3 Dunn
4 Phillips
5 Griffey
6 Conine

AARRRGH!

oneupper
03-24-2007, 10:38 AM
I won't get started on Narron, but IMO breaking up the lefties in a lineup is overrated.

Sure, opponents can bring their LOOGY for more than one batter...but having a big bat lefty (say Dunn) followed by another (say Griffey) also forces a right handed pitcher (which are the majority, especially in our division) to have to pitch to at least one of them. No hiding.

IMO this reflects an obsession of Narron's with the end-game: Bullpen, pinch hitting and Defensive Replacements. He doesn't want to LOSE a game at the end (well nobody does...but...)

Problem is most games are really won or lost in first few innings. It's no use having a great end-game strategy if you're not "in it" at the end.

I'm afraid Narron will put up lineups like this, then complain about the team not hitting with RISP.

dougdirt
03-24-2007, 10:51 AM
My brain hurts every time I read Narron say something.
Brandon Phillips batting third boggles the mind.

Big Klu
03-24-2007, 11:19 AM
I won't get started on Narron, but IMO breaking up the lefties in a lineup is overrated.

Sure, opponents can bring their LOOGY for more than one batter...but having a big bat lefty (say Dunn) followed by another (say Griffey) also forces a right handed pitcher (which are the majority, especially in our division) to have to pitch to at least one of them. No hiding.

Case in point: The Pirates didn't seem to have a problem back in the 70's with Dave Parker hitting third and Willie Stargell batting fourth.



I posted some of this on Reds Live, but I think it fits in well here, too. The lineup can be structured R-L-R-L-R-L in the first six spots in a better way than John Fay is reporting, and it would allow for minimal juggling when the right-handed halves of the platoon positions start against lefty pitchers. Try this on for size:

vs. RHP
Freel cf
Dunn lf
Encarnacion 3b
Griffey rf
Phillips 2b
Hatteberg 1b
Ross c
Gonzalez ss
<pitcher>

vs. LHP
Freel cf
Dunn lf
Encarnacion 3b
Griffey rf
Phillips 2b
Conine 1b
Ross c
Gonzalez ss
<pitcher>


If Griffey is not ready by Opening Day:

vs. RHP
Freel cf
Hatteberg 1b
Encarnacion 3b
Dunn lf
Phillips 2b
Hamilton rf
Ross c
Gonzalez ss
<pitcher>

vs. LHP
Freel cf
Denorfia rf
Encarnacion 3b
Dunn lf
Phillips 2b
Conine 1b
Ross c
Gonzalez ss
<pitcher>

RedFanAlways1966
03-24-2007, 11:44 AM
I posted some of this on Reds Live, but I think it fits in well here, too. The lineup can be structured R-L-R-L-R-L in the first six spots in a better way than John Fay is reporting...

And let us remember that nothing is for certain b/c of a John Fay article. Narron's quotes in the article are all "maybe this or maybe that". He is quoted as saying Adam could hit 2nd, 4th or 6th. No one agrees with him hitting 6th. I will not jump, yell or rant until I see it.

Jr's Boy
03-24-2007, 11:57 AM
Another objective of Narron's is to keep things more stable than last year, when the Reds had a National League-high 140 different lineups.




Holy smoke Batman.

KronoRed
03-24-2007, 12:01 PM
Good grief.

Get your best hitters the most at bats, it's a simple logic that will help you score runs..those win games...shocking that some managers don't understand it, they would rather sabotage the lineup because they are afraid of a lefty bullpenner late in the game.

TC81190
03-24-2007, 12:14 PM
Adam Dunn vs. LHP
.270/.393/.503, 11 HR in 184 AB.

Cyclone792
03-24-2007, 12:23 PM
In 587 plate appearances in 2006, Brandon Phillips walked only 35 times. Despite having a respectable .276 batting average last season, he put up an abysmal .324 on-base percentage.

For his career, Brandon Phillips has a gouge-my-eyes-out .290 on-base percentage, and he's taken only 54 walks in 1,049 plate appearances. That's only one walk for every 19.43 plate appearances.

This spring in 51 plate appearances, Brandon Phillips has taken exactly one walk.

There's not many worse things a manager can do to a lineup than ensuring the presence of an out-making machine squarely in the middle of the lineup. If Brandon Phillips is batting third, then prepare yourselves for an ungodly number of killed rallies due to his propensity for swinging at garbage out of the strike zone and making far too many outs.

Yachtzee
03-24-2007, 01:20 PM
Whoever has been brainwashing managers to follow these unwritten rules as if they've been handed from the Lawgiver needs to be found and dealt with. Lineups need to be constructed in a way that gives players the best opportunity for them to succeed. Putting inferior hitters high in the order just to "break up the lefties" is ridiculous. He's effectively saying he's willing to give up the potential for more runs early in the game in exchange for a marginal benefit later in the game when the other team brings in their lefty specialist for 1 inning. Now I realize there's more to managing than just constructing a lineup. But it just bugs me to no end how the management of this team seems hell-bent on marginalizing its best offensive players in favor of "strategery."

Tony Cloninger
03-24-2007, 09:58 PM
I do not know who is more annoying....Narron or the guy writing this.

Always with the maybe this or maybe that.....is Narron confused or is the writer trying to confuse us beacuse narron will not give him an answer he likes.

More reason for me to tire of Griffey being on this team.....but then again, if Narron had guts he would bat Griffey 5th or 6th.

I think Phillips will get exposed batting 3rd and that thing will end by Game 10.

Same thing with the Burton saga.......The writer states the Reds love him but hold on now.....that still might not be enough beacuse Bray might still be ready. End the saga now and get rid of RC.

Chip R
03-24-2007, 10:04 PM
"I've love to have a set lineup every day," he said, "where Doug Flynn plays once every two weeks for Joe Morgan or Davey Concepcion."



Another objective of Narron's is to keep things more stable than last year, when the Reds had a National League-high 140 different lineups.




Holy smoke Batman.


His lips say, "No, no," but his eyes say, "Yes, yes." :bang:

mth123
03-24-2007, 10:13 PM
I do not know who is more annoying....Narron or the guy writing this.

Always with the maybe this or maybe that.....is Narron confused or is the writer trying to confuse us beacuse narron will not give him an answer he likes.

More reason for me to tire of Griffey being on this team.....but then again, if Narron had guts he would bat Griffey 5th or 6th.

I think Phillips will get exposed batting 3rd and that thing will end by Game 10.

Same thing with the Burton saga.......The writer states the Reds love him but hold on now.....that still might not be enough beacuse Bray might still be ready. End the saga now and get rid of RC.

Wow. I think you're right about Phillips. It won't last.

As for Bray/Burton/RC your post actually makes me think there migt be some logic in WK's head after all. Maybe he has every intention of getting rid of ole Rheal but is just hanging on to the lefty to see if Bray is healthy. I think there is a good chance that Bray starts on the DL and Rheal goes when he's activated. (Maybe I'm just hoping.) I actually think its possible that Bray will be held out to buy time for WK to make a deal for Rheal.

Marc D
03-24-2007, 10:18 PM
Anyone else remember when the previous version of Narron (Miley) sat JR and Dunn down in Coors field for 2 punch-n-judy righties? I do.

I thought that was about the single dumbest thing I had seen a manager do in the name of overplaying the "how to use my lefties" card. If baBoone v3.0 actually puts Phillips 3rd just to keep the R-L-R-L thing going he's dumber than the previous two versions and thats something I didn't think I could ever seriously say about a manager.

Oh well, I don't believe in blaming an idiot for being an idiot. I blame the guy who hires and retains said idiots.

mth123
03-24-2007, 10:20 PM
Oh well, I don't believe in blaming an idiot for being an idiot. I blame the guy who hires and retains said idiots.

That is a great line.

BRM
03-25-2007, 12:54 PM
Brandon Phillips batting 3rd? Wow. Just wow.

vaticanplum
03-25-2007, 01:00 PM
Whoever has been brainwashing managers to follow these unwritten rules as if they've been handed from the Lawgiver needs to be found and dealt with. Lineups need to be constructed in a way that gives players the best opportunity for them to succeed. Putting inferior hitters high in the order just to "break up the lefties" is ridiculous. He's effectively saying he's willing to give up the potential for more runs early in the game in exchange for a marginal benefit later in the game when the other team brings in their lefty specialist for 1 inning. Now I realize there's more to managing than just constructing a lineup. But it just bugs me to no end how the management of this team seems hell-bent on marginalizing its best offensive players in favor of "strategery."

Bingo.

It's defensive play -- and I mean that in a psychological sense, not an athletic one. Being more afraid of the opposing pitcher than confident in your own hitters; essentially, putting control of your lineup in the hands of the other team. And it takes away your hitters' opportunities to really utilize their strengths.

This lineup has barely enough to squeak by offensively -- enough, but barely. the only way it can happen is if the lineup is constructed with the plate discipliners in the right place, with the power hitters in the right place, etc. If your primary criterion is the righty-lefty thing, that's not going to happen; there's just not that kind of leeway with this team.

KronoRed
03-25-2007, 01:36 PM
Brandon Phillips batting 3rd? Wow. Just wow.

He's had a great spring!!!!





(like Tony Womack last year) :devil:

membengal
03-25-2007, 02:19 PM
I missed it, did Womack hit five homeruns last spring? Or even get five balls out of the infield?

TC81190
03-25-2007, 02:27 PM
I missed it, did Womack hit five homeruns last spring? Or even get five balls out of the infield?

Word, that comparison is ridiculous.

KronoRed
03-25-2007, 02:34 PM
Not a comparison, just a note that letting a guys spring numbers dictate where you pout him over what he's done before in real games is extremely chancy.

TC81190
03-25-2007, 04:35 PM
Not a comparison, just a note that letting a guys spring numbers dictate where you pout him over what he's done before in real games is extremely chancy.

Oh yeah. I agree B-Phil shouldn't even be sniffing the 3rd spot. Not in this lineup.