PDA

View Full Version : What To Do With Milton?



Strikes Out Looking
03-25-2007, 06:13 PM
Assuming the Kriv can't find a taker for the huge contract DanO gave Uncle Milty, would you?

1. Keep him in the rotation.
2. Demote him to the bullpen.
3. Send him to AAA.
4. Cut him.

By the way, I vote for #3, I'm willing to eat the money to improve the team.

Tom Servo
03-25-2007, 06:17 PM
2, 3, and 4 seems like a pretty good order of events to try.

11larkin11
03-25-2007, 06:20 PM
#4. Now. Not gonna have him take up a spot in the bullpen or rotation that a young guy has deserved a shot at. Not going to AAA because that gives him a chance to come up and takes another of our AAA starters back to AA. Plus, I dont want him teaching Homer bad habits.

remdog
03-25-2007, 06:21 PM
The first possibility is actually the DL.

Rem

RedFanAlways1966
03-25-2007, 06:29 PM
Hard for me to vote on this right now. I start him off in the rotation... give him 2-3 starts max. to show me something. If he gets bombed (not sure of the exact definition other than the obvious), then I go for options 2, 3 or 4.

Always Red
03-25-2007, 06:30 PM
DL; there's obviously something wrong with him...somehow, somewhere.....;)

You can't just throw the money out the window, and you can't let him pitch, either. Trade him to someone, anyone who might want him and would be willing to pay anything, even 500K for him to pitch. If no one wants him, not even for MLB minimum, DL him for as long as you can. Rehab him in AAA and see if he can get anyone out. If he still can't get guys out, then you have to cut him loose.

It's easy to say DFA him when it's not your $9 million. But if the Reds want to win, they certainly can't let him pitch, as he is right now, and it's beyond question to run him out there every 5th day. I've been a Milton supporter, as I feel he is too often the whipping boy around here; but he now is clearly the #7 or 8th best starter on this staff.

KronoRed
03-25-2007, 06:30 PM
Dump him now, just end it.

pedro
03-25-2007, 06:31 PM
I'd cut him before Burton that's for sure.

PuffyPig
03-25-2007, 06:33 PM
BTW, he can't be sent to the minors without his permission, and there's no reason why he would agree.

redsfanmia
03-25-2007, 06:35 PM
Try to trade him and eat as little salary as possible, hell trade him for another bad contract just to rid yourself of him.

KronoRed
03-25-2007, 06:35 PM
BTW, he can't be sent to the minors without his permission, and there's no reason why he would agree.

Yep, we have a better chance of him announcing his retirement

Strikes Out Looking
03-25-2007, 06:59 PM
Yep, we have a better chance of him announcing his retirement

No--if he announces his retirement he doesn't get paid. If he accepts AAA, he still gets paid the eight million.

TheWalls
03-25-2007, 07:08 PM
Where's the eat most of the salary and trade him option?

RedsManRick
03-25-2007, 07:11 PM
It's easy to say cut him until you see 30 starts of Victor Santos. The cost is sunk. Put him in the 5th spot of the rotation and let him eat innings. Maybe he'll have a half decent season and you can flip him June for an A ball guy. Cutting him now is just foolish.

PuffyPig
03-25-2007, 07:20 PM
No--if he announces his retirement he doesn't get paid. If he accepts AAA, he still gets paid the eight million.

He gets paid the money even if he doesn't accept the demotion to AAA.

He has enough service time to prevent a demotion.

BEETTLEBUG
03-25-2007, 07:46 PM
I can't vote right now but I say put him in 5 spot and go 2or 3 starts to see how he goes. If you skip him let him pitch in a BLOWOUT game were he can't hurt us.

reds44
03-25-2007, 08:00 PM
It's easy to say cut him until you see 30 starts of Victor Santos. The cost is sunk. Put him in the 5th spot of the rotation and let him eat innings. Maybe he'll have a half decent season and you can flip him June for an A ball guy. Cutting him now is just foolish.
Where do you see 30 starts of Victor Santos?

My rotation would be:
Harang
Arroyo
Loshe
Belisle
Saarloos

I would start Milton out in the bullpen this year. He has shown a complete inhability to go more then 6 innings on the rare occasion he has a good start anyways. Maybe, he would fair better pitching a few innings then trying to go 6 or 7.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/530/miltonuq5.png
As you can see, over the course of his career he fairs better through 45 pitches then he does afterward. The problem with that is, in his first 15 pitches last year opponents hit .301 against him.

If he doesn't work out in the pen, then you let him go.

flyer85
03-25-2007, 08:04 PM
flush

westofyou
03-25-2007, 08:31 PM
What To Do With Milton?

http://www.cellardoorbooks.com/cellardoor/images/items/20638.jpg

vaticanplum
03-25-2007, 08:35 PM
http://www.cellardoorbooks.com/cellardoor/images/items/20638.jpg

My baseball message board just referenced the Secret Garden.

My mind was just blown.

nmculbreth
03-25-2007, 10:15 PM
It's easy to say DFA him when it's not your $9 million. But if the Reds want to win, they certainly can't let him pitch, as he is right now, and it's beyond question to run him out there every 5th day. I've been a Milton supporter, as I feel he is too often the whipping boy around here; but he now is clearly the #7 or 8th best starter on this staff.

In my humble opinion the money issue is irrelevant. The Reds are on the hook for $9 mil regardless on what they do with Milton, why should they compound that problem by keeping him around when he isn't good enough to be a part of the staff? If Milton isn't good enough to make the team, the club should designate him for assignment.

Always Red
03-25-2007, 10:30 PM
If Milton isn't good enough to make the team, the club should designate him for assignment.

First they should exhaust all ways to recoup any of the investment.

I agree that he should not be a starting pitcher for this team.

jnwohio
03-26-2007, 12:43 AM
Start him on the DL; he is coming off of season ending arthroscopic elbow surgery so it should not too hard to get him to go along with the DL.


Meanwhile hope that someone with a big home needs a starter and will spring for a big piece of his salary (whichI think is actually $9 million this year. If and when that happens bring him up for a start or two then move him out.

Dracodave
03-26-2007, 12:56 AM
If Chan Ho Park can get a job. If Marquis can get a job...

Milton is movable, you have to think that. Atleast one team is desperate enough to take him.

You'd be foolishly to not even try. Worse case scenerio is, you have to DFA the man. Which you've still sunk the money so sink the player (turd).

nmculbreth
03-26-2007, 01:00 AM
First they should exhaust all ways to recoup any of the investment.

I agree that he should not be a starting pitcher for this team.

I don't disagree, though I find it hard to believe that there is another team desparate enough to actually trade for Milton. Let's face it after Harang and Arroyo our starters are very suspect, if Milton isn't good enough to start here I have my doublts that anyone else would agree to take on anything more than the league minimum.

Jpup
03-26-2007, 01:03 AM
I bet Washington would pick him up if he were DFA'd.

RedsManRick
03-26-2007, 01:52 AM
Milton posted a 5.19 ERA in 150 IP last year. Last year, that was better than the average starts from the "#4 starters" across the NL. Is it good? No. Is it average? No. Is it better than replacement? Yeah. I know he's not worth his salary. But he did have a higher QS% than Greg Maddux, Main Cain, Brad Penny, that Jon Lieber guy I see people clamoring for. Not to mention Aaron Harang. Yes, he bombed big time when he didn't have a quality start, but the fact is that more often than not, he keeps us in the game. And frankly, his likely replacement isn't likely to be any better.

However, that doesn't mean he doesn't have positive value given the sunk cost. Simply cutting him would be silly. Pay his salary in full, and I guarantee you somebody will give you something for him. He may not be the most valuable asset, but a lefty with a functional throwing arm and a history of some success will always have a place on somebody's roster. Getting nothing in return for him would be foolish.

As bad as Milton has been (and was in 2005), I think there's a fair bit of 'grass is greener' going on.

mth123
03-26-2007, 07:45 AM
It's easy to say cut him until you see 30 starts of Victor Santos. The cost is sunk. Put him in the 5th spot of the rotation and let him eat innings. Maybe he'll have a half decent season and you can flip him June for an A ball guy. Cutting him now is just foolish.

Glad to hear a smart poster like you say this. I'd been saying it all offseason and was beginning to doubt myself. That said, cutting him wouldn't be a huge mistake either at this point, but I still think that the decision comes down to 2 real questions:

1. What is best for the now? I honestly think it doesn't matter. All the options are equally as bad and Milton IMO isn't the worst pitcher in the projected starting 5 (Lohse and Saarloos scare me as much or more). Honestly, I think the decison is going to come down to Milton making too much money to get drubbed or Milton still making that money while Saarloos gets drubbed. Its a wash. The only compelling argument for cutting Milton in my mind is to free a roster spot to keep from losing Burton. If that is the decision I'm ok with that as well.

2. What is best for the future? I do think Belisle and Ramirez have shown enough potential to be considered back of the rotation options as long as they remain cheap. Beyond those two, I don't really see a pitcher in the starter mix that provides any help beyond 2007. Saarloos is already more expensive than he is worth and Santos has a track record worse than Milton's. Lohse is gone after 2007 as a free agent regardless and Livingston needs 5 to 10 MPH on his fastball to be useful. Since I believe Bailey needs a year in AAA, and Ramirez is rehabbing and probably not an option now, as long as Belisle, Harang and Arroyo start, the other spots aren't really "innings to go to a guy for his development" considerations in my mind. IMO any money that can be recouped from Milton's contract by sticking him in the rotation and trying to trade him, probably provides more value for the future of the team than giving innings to these other black holes.

The sunk cost argument does have some truth to it, but it ignores any salvage value that could be recouped by trading him and eating only a portion. If any savings is reinvested into the team, than that seems to me to be more valuable to the now and the future than any other alternative.

George Anderson
03-26-2007, 10:42 AM
BTW, he can't be sent to the minors without his permission, and there's no reason why he would agree.

All day yesterday I listened to Alan Cutler harp on how Milton should be sent to the minors. A very wasted day.:eek:

membengal
03-26-2007, 11:03 AM
Snipe hunt.

For both Cutler and Milton. We all win in that scenario.

OnBaseMachine
03-26-2007, 01:42 PM
I like what M2 said... instead of plugging Milton into the #3, 4 or 5 hole in the rotaton, just plug him in a hole and fill it up.

BRM
03-26-2007, 01:43 PM
I'd love to see him cut if he can't be traded but that simply isn't going to happen right away. He's going to take the ball every 5th day for at least 8-10 starts.

edabbs44
03-26-2007, 01:45 PM
Give him a couple of shots and then demoted him to the bullpen. There's a need for LH relievers. ;)

I have a feeling that Milty will not be the only issue in the rotation. You might be substituting Lohse's name for Milton's in this thread by May 15th.

But at least the bullpen is rock solid. :rolleyes:

BRM
03-26-2007, 01:46 PM
I have a feeling that Milty will not be the only issue in the rotation. You might be substituting Lohse's name for Milton's in this thread by May 15th.

Very true. If Lohse tanks, the Reds will be in real trouble.

membengal
03-26-2007, 03:05 PM
Livingston looks VERY sharp again today. Works fast, keeps the ball down, won't overpower anyone but with pitches varying between 75 and 86, is changing speeds well enough to keep Boston off balance.

So, how about him over Milton?

HotCorner
03-26-2007, 03:07 PM
Trade him to the Mets or Nationals. I'm not saying the Reds would get a lot but I trust WK's scouts.

Ltlabner
03-26-2007, 03:35 PM
However, that doesn't mean he doesn't have positive value given the sunk cost. Simply cutting him would be silly. Pay his salary in full, and I guarantee you somebody will give you something for him. He may not be the most valuable asset, but a lefty with a functional throwing arm and a history of some success will always have a place on somebody's roster. Getting nothing in return for him would be foolish. .

Thank you.

I've been singing the same tune for a while now. There are different options available to at least salvage some sort of return on the guy all of which are better than just DFA and get zero, zip nadda. Of course, none of them will come close to relalizing the $9m his is due this year, but even in your example RMR, at least we'd get a prospect in return.

Let's not just ship him out to molify the mob. Let's ship him out to improve the team, and get something/anything we can for him in return. Even if it's just stashing him in the bullpen, if he gives us some effective innings it's an improvement over the nothing we would get if we DFA'd him.

bucksfan2
03-26-2007, 03:42 PM
Here's what I think happens. Milton starts the season as the #3-4 starter. If he continues to strugge, which all signs point to, he is put on the dl to help with his knee. I think with milton you have to realize that he is an ok pitcher when that knee is completly healthy. The question is if or how long that knee can stay healthy. I think you will see milton making between 10-15 starts for this club and spending the rest of the time on the DL or skipping a start to improve the heath of his knee.

BRM
03-26-2007, 03:44 PM
Let's not just ship him out to molify the mob. Let's ship him out to improve the team, and get something/anything we can for him in return. Even if it's just stashing him in the bullpen, if he gives us some effective innings it's an improvement over the nothing we would get if we DFA'd him.

Shipping him out improves the team. Addition by subtraction. Getting a low level prospect that is very unlikely to ever make the majors doesn't make much difference to me. Just remove Milton from the staff and the staff improves.

redsfanfalcon
03-26-2007, 03:50 PM
Livingston looks VERY sharp again today. Works fast, keeps the ball down, won't overpower anyone but with pitches varying between 75 and 86, is changing speeds well enough to keep Boston off balance.

So, how about him over Milton?

Kind of reminds you of Tom Browning, and I recall he had a pretty successful career. I agree wholehartedly.

Ltlabner
03-26-2007, 04:03 PM
Shipping him out improves the team. Addition by subtraction. Getting a low level prospect that is very unlikely to ever make the majors doesn't make much difference to me. Just remove Milton from the staff and the staff improves.

How about shipping him out and the other team picks up 25 to 50% of his sallary?

How about shipping him out and getting a decent pitching hitting/utility type to suplement the bench?

How about shipping him out, paying his entire sallary and getting a decent pitching prospect who might give us a few (1 to 3) good years down the road (even as a #5 type)?

How about giving him 3 starts to see what happens, then putting him in the bullpen in long reliefe. If he continues to fail then DFA him?

There are several options available (other than the rush to send him out on a rail) that would get you some sort of value short of -$9,000,000. I think RMR's other point (which I've also made before) is that simply punting him out of town doesn't mean you see an improved staff. You still have to have someone out on the mound pitching.

While Belisle has been the recieptient of the man-love de jour, he's (1) hes not pitched over 60 innings in the past two years. (2) When he last pitched 160+ innings he posted a 5.26ERA in AAA. Lizzard's IP high was 144IP last year which ended in arm injuries. He's projected by BP to be at 5.05ERA and 1.40 WHIP which is not a significant improvement over Milton (5.27ERA and 1.41 WHIP over 158 IP). Livingston is projected at 111IP with 5.78ERA and 1.64 WHIP. I suppose you could rotate Belisle, Lizzard and Livingson through Miltons spot ala a #5 type setup to try to minimize their weaknesses, but with those numbers does anybody really have that much confidence that over a years time they would signigicantly improve on Miltons numbers. Because if they don't all you've done is burn up $9m and gotten zero in return.

TRF
03-26-2007, 04:17 PM
I'm not one to cackle over the prospects of a guy losing his job. But Milton is gonna make 8 mil this year regardless of whether he throws a single pitch for the Reds. I'd rather he not throw any.

I'd say you could make a direct comparison between Livingston and Milton. Milty has better velocity, he probably sits around 92. Livingston today never threw a pitch faster than 86. But he has great sink, whereas Milton's laser straight just under the letters FB makes even average hitters drool. Everyone was pounding the ball into the ground against Livingston. Very astute move on Krivsky's part to force MLB to hand him over. That sais, I see why Seattle soured on him. He needs some oomph his FB. 3-4 MPH would make him pretty effective. He has said he can throw harder, but he loses movement when he does. I wonder if someone can help him with that.

My rotation would be Harang, Arroyo, Lohse (that's an experience thing only, I'd prefer Belisle in the #3, but that wouldn't happen) Belisle and probably Livingston. I think EZ Ramirez, despite good numbers in limited action, is still building strength in his shoulder. And at 23 years of age, I can wait.

BRM
03-26-2007, 04:20 PM
How about shipping him out and the other team picks up 25 to 50% of his sallary?

How about shipping him out and getting a decent pitching hitting/utility type to suplement the bench?

How about shipping him out, paying his entire sallary and getting a decent pitching prospect who might give us a few (1 to 3) good years down the road (even as a #5 type)?

How about giving him 3 starts to see what happens, then putting him in the bullpen in long reliefe. If he continues to fail then DFA him?


I like all of those options but I don't think there's much chance of any of them happening. That's been my point. I'd love to trade him and get something of worth or some salary relief. I just don't see it happening though.

I'm all for putting him in the pen if they can't trade him. If he must be kept, put him in a position where the damage can be limited. Let him be the long relief/mop up guy.

Dracodave
03-26-2007, 04:23 PM
I'd say you could make a direct comparison between Livingston and Milton. Milty has better velocity, he probably sits around 92. Livingston today never threw a pitch faster than 86. But he has great sink, whereas Milton's laser straight just under the letters FB makes even average hitters drool. Everyone was pounding the ball into the ground against Livingston. Very astute move on Krivsky's part to force MLB to hand him over. That sais, I see why Seattle soured on him. He needs some oomph his FB. 3-4 MPH would make him pretty effective. He has said he can throw harder, but he loses movement when he does. I wonder if someone can help him with that.


As long as he gets out's..I don't care how fast he throws.


86 with movement can look like 92. 92 with no movements..looks like it's standing still. Livingston can reach 90/91, He does become laser straight though. His two seamer sticks in the 86/88 range and boy does it move. His slider/curve are very good as well. His change up is decent and missed with a moving fastball...

:thumbup:

I like the kid.

RedsManRick
03-27-2007, 02:23 AM
Pretend none of the starting pitching options make any money. Look at their career statistics. Tell me which three of this group you want:

Milton
Lohse
Livingston
Belisle
Santos
Ramirez

Is Eric Milton my #3 starter? Certainly not if I had a better option. There are going to be days when he goes 3 1/3 and gives us 3 homers and 6 runs. But saying cut him loose and tying yourself in to one of those other guys to give you 180 IP and a 4.50 ERA is just as foolish as giving Milton his 9MM in the first place. I don't care if you stash him as your long reliever until you flip him -- somebody will give you something for him if you're willing to write the check.

Cutting Milton is like having a car that still runs, but is beat up and the transmission is going. Yes, you aren't going to drive it to work every day. You aren't going to put it in the classifieds. But if you have space in the garage, you keep it around while you find a junkyard (or stupid teenager) that will give you $1,000 bucks for it. You don't drive it in to a lake and walk away. God forbid your other car breaks down, it would stink to have to go get a rent a car that's no better than the one under 30 feet of water.

Krusty
03-27-2007, 11:01 AM
It is easy to cut a guy when it isn't your money that you're paying for his salary.

westofyou
03-27-2007, 11:04 AM
It is easy to cut a guy when it isn't your money that you're paying for his salary.

Yeah, it's easy to cut a guy making money when he pitches like Eric Milton

The precedent has already been set, Danny Graves.

BRM
03-27-2007, 11:04 AM
It is easy to cut a guy when it isn't your money that you're paying for his salary.

They have to pay him either way. Might as well pay him to sabotage the team's chances, right? Pay him to hurt some other team's chances, not the Reds.

TRF
03-27-2007, 11:39 AM
Milton is done. The velo is fine, but his ball stays up, and has no movement. He hangs curveballs like he's a judge in the old west.

I feel bad for the guy to a point. But there are worse things in life than sitting at home collecting 8.5 mil.

Redsland
03-27-2007, 11:43 AM
It is easy to cut a guy when it isn't your money that you're paying for his salary.
(As I said in the other Milton thread: )

True, but Castellini has shown that he doesn't mind cutting and running.

Last year, the Reds released the following guys who had guaranteed, major league deals:

April 14: Jacob Cruz, $500,000 (vested when he made the 25-man roster)

May 2: Tony Womack, $2,000,000

July 14: Quinton McCracken, $600,000 (so, half of that got eaten)

July 24: Esteban Yan, $1,250,000 (acquired May 30, so 1/3 of that got eaten by the Reds)

That's over $3 million right there. Sure, we got cash with Yan, but we sent cash to NY with Dave Williams, so let's call that a wash. Plus we sent $3 million to KC with LaRue. So in seven or eight months' time, the Reds ate $6 million in an effort to improve the team.

Given that reality, is eating $9 million to get rid of Milton really that much of a stretch?

15fan
03-27-2007, 11:45 AM
What to do with Milton?

Keep moving him and his red Swingline stapler to a smaller and smaller cube. Eventually, Lumburgh will move him to the basement and tell the folks in HR to stop paying him. He'll just stop showing up for work one day.

BRM
03-27-2007, 11:49 AM
Given that reality, is eating $9 million to get rid of Milton really that much of a stretch?

I think the Reds can afford to eat the $9M but they won't right away. He'll cost them 6 or 8 games early on before they will cut him loose.

Redsland
03-27-2007, 11:58 AM
I think the Reds can afford to eat the $9M but they won't right away. He'll cost them 6 or 8 games early on before they will cut him loose.
That's certainly the Reds' m.o.

Last year Dave Williams got eight starts. The year before that, Wilson got nine. Both pitchers were generally horrible during those stints, but occasionally got lucky.

Milton is capabale of being occasionally lucky, so if he isn't cut during ST, I expect we'll be watching him through May.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
03-27-2007, 12:17 PM
Don't let him pitch at home, pitch him against bad teams, and hope to god we score 7 runs every time he pitches. Or we could thank him for nothing and send him home.

Raisor
03-27-2007, 12:29 PM
I can't believe, as of this post, that 45 of you want to keep Milton on the 25 man roster.

Maybe it's the same people that loved the signing in the first place.

yikes

redsmetz
03-27-2007, 01:22 PM
I can't believe, as of this post, that 45 of you want to keep Milton on the 25 man roster.

Maybe it's the same people that loved the signing in the first place.

yikes

I was among those who voted to put him in the bullpen, but I can't recall if I voted before or after he was shelled by the Single A Buccos. I think it was before.

I was among those who has said they won't, or can't eat $9 Million. But yesterday's outing has persuaded me that it would be better for the team to not have him in the rotation. I have said since yesterday that they need to take a long hard look at his overall health and disable him if they can. Perhaps then they can recoup some of this year's salary through insurance (although you have to wonder if any insurance covers his knee injury occurring since he had that history).

I wasn't on this board when we signed Milton, although at the time, I was surprised we picked up a pitcher who seemed to the average fan (and I don't profess to be anything more than that) to be halfway decent. I was unaware of his previous health issues at that time. It's really a shame, because he's been a standup guy regarding his poor performance. That's great for the "decent human being" category, but it doesn't win games unfortunately.

We should try to do something that has him not pitch for us this year.

berryluther
03-27-2007, 01:40 PM
Heres my thoughts:

We are on the hook for the 9 million either way. No one is going to trade a half eaten hotdog for this bum after giving up 5 hrs to the Pirates A ball team.

I would rather have him not loosing games and pay him 9 mil rather than pay him and have him loose games

Redsland
03-27-2007, 01:46 PM
We should try to do something that has him not pitch for us this year.
Maybe we could have him wash Jeff Kent's truck.

;)

Slyder
03-27-2007, 01:54 PM
Where's the eat most of the salary and trade him option?

No ones going to give anything for him. Teams are desperate for pitching but Eric Milton has been beyond awful to where even Dave Duncan couldnt save him. Thats not even mentioning the deteriorating knee he's got. If anyone did show interest we'd probably practically be waving him anyways. Grit and cut the pound of flesh off now before the games mattered.

If he showed ANY semblence of even average pitching I would cut him some slack and let him get some starts. The only way you are going to get that is by pitching him only in stadiums like RFK. His road split last year was 4.95 ERA, batting average against .292. The knee has only gotten worse, he's not shown anything besides a continual decline of his skills, and you expect the Reds to compete throwing him out there?

If you can get away with DL'ing him fine, but he is not worth the risk of pitching on a team that was an average #3 pitcher from being IN the playoffs. Money or not, Milton is not a present solution nor is he part of the future go ahead wish him well, throw a party, etc and send him on his way with the money and look at guys who COULD be part of the present and future.


*Does some quick math* 3x # of post<<<<<Pollsters*
*Edit I wish the poll was public so we could see who voted for what :D*.

TheWalls
03-27-2007, 02:20 PM
It is easy to cut a guy when it isn't your money that you're paying for his salary.

If your goal is winning and not a bigger profit its easier.

TheWalls
03-27-2007, 02:22 PM
That's certainly the Reds' m.o.

Last year Dave Williams got eight starts. The year before that, Wilson got nine. Both pitchers were generally horrible during those stints, but occasionally got lucky.

Milton is capabale of being occasionally lucky, so if he isn't cut during ST, I expect we'll be watching him through May.

Really good comparison. Now, what can we expect from Milton's first nine starts? 1-5, 8.00 ERA, 20 HRs?

Ltlabner
03-27-2007, 04:52 PM
No ones going to give anything for him.

I keep hearing that being said.

Yet how many medocre to poor pitchers got huge contracts this past off season?

People are willing to pay for medicore, poor and (in some cases) bad pitching if there is a track record and reputation.

The question is, with Miltons track record and reputation what would they pay? I say with a little work and some creativity we can get something in return for him (albiet likely very little).

Eric_Davis
03-27-2007, 05:22 PM
Where do you see 30 starts of Victor Santos?

My rotation would be:
Harang
Arroyo
Loshe
Belisle
Saarloos

I would start Milton out in the bullpen this year. He has shown a complete inhability to go more then 6 innings on the rare occasion he has a good start anyways. Maybe, he would fair better pitching a few innings then trying to go 6 or 7.



Been over this a million times. Why do you keep insisting that it's a "rare" game when he pitches well.

He pitched well in more than half of his games last year.

Eric_Davis
03-27-2007, 05:26 PM
As a #4 starter, he'll win half of his games because everyone else's #4 starters are of the same quality.

BRM
03-27-2007, 05:31 PM
As a #4 starter, he'll win half of his games because everyone else's #4 starters are of the same quality.

According to your other thread, the average #4 posts an ERA right around 5.00. I fully expect Milton to be closer to 6.00 than 5.00 this season.

TRF
03-27-2007, 05:34 PM
As a #4 starter, he'll win half of his games because everyone else's #4 starters are of the same quality.

Yeah, because everyone is on the exact same schedule, and #4's always face #4's. Oh, and everyone's #4 is as much of a black hole of suckitude as Milton is.

Please, please look at the facts. Milton is a bad pitcher. He was awful last year. and record setting awful the year before. His degenerative knee is not getting better. He hasn't been even league average in quite some time.

And you demanding that he is does not make it so.

Slyder
03-27-2007, 05:49 PM
I keep hearing that being said.

Yet how many medocre to poor pitchers got huge contracts this past off season?

People are willing to pay for medicore, poor and (in some cases) bad pitching if there is a track record and reputation.

The question is, with Miltons track record and reputation what would they pay? I say with a little work and some creativity we can get something in return for him (albiet likely very little).

Milton's got a couple strikes against him though:
STEEERIKE 1: The others have healthy knees
STEEERIKE 2: The others dont have ERAs of 5.19 and 6.47 the past two years.
STEEERIKE 3: He's a flyball pitcher in this age of small parks and monster HRs thats a recipe for disaster. *Okay foul tip catcher couldnt come up with it*
STEEERIKE 3: The others didnt require a team to give up anything in the way of spects for.

Teams will wait for the Reds to cut him or pay the entire remainder of the contract before they even think about Milton.

nmculbreth
03-27-2007, 11:15 PM
I keep hearing that being said.

Yet how many medocre to poor pitchers got huge contracts this past off season?

People are willing to pay for medicore, poor and (in some cases) bad pitching if there is a track record and reputation.

The question is, with Miltons track record and reputation what would they pay? I say with a little work and some creativity we can get something in return for him (albiet likely very little).

Even with the insane contracts tendered this offseason, I still doubt that anyone is going to be willing to give the Reds anything for Milton. Guys like Gil Meche and Adam Eaton have percieved upside, Milton does not. Add in his poor performance over the past two seasons and his degenerative knee condition who in their right mind would trade for him?

I'm not sure about anyone else, but I'd rather not watch the Reds run out Milton every fifth day while waiting for another team to pick up an extra $500k of Milton's salary or offer the club minor league fodder.

Ltlabner
03-28-2007, 07:22 AM
I'm not sure about anyone else, but I'd rather not watch the Reds run out Milton every fifth day while waiting for another team to pick up an extra $500k of Milton's salary or offer the club minor league fodder.

I really don't understand what is so difficult to comprehend about trying to avoid burning up his entire sallary. Plenty of trades have been made with seemingly washed up and 'useless' parts. Royce Clayton is starting at SS this year isn't he? (that is, as a washed up player a team actually wanted him and is paying money for his services.) Just because it's much harder to acomplish doesn't mean it's impossible.

I'm not advocating using him in the rotation. I posted this in one of the other 34 current "dump Milton threads"; I DON'T WANT MILTON TO PITCH. I don't think he should be in the starting rotation at all in 2007. I think his days here are over and in no way should he be pitching for the Cincinnati Reds.

But none of that changes that if there is any oportunity to eek some sort of reduction in the amount of money being used for exactly zero return the reasonable thing to do is take it. Even if it's $500,000. That's likely a few extra scouts that could be hired. Or a bunch of marketing people. Wouldn't we like the team to increase their efforts in those areas? Even if it's minor league fodder. Isn't that how we acquired Aaron Harrang?

At some point we'll likly have to swallow it and DFA him. I'm fine with that. But if we can do anything to minimize the damages, the smart move is to do it.

membengal
03-28-2007, 08:26 AM
If the Reds' attempt to minimize damages ltl, is to run him out for starts and depress the fan base, I am not for it...

Slyder
03-28-2007, 11:48 AM
I really don't understand what is so difficult to comprehend about trying to avoid burning up his entire sallary. Plenty of trades have been made with seemingly washed up and 'useless' parts. Royce Clayton is starting at SS this year isn't he? (that is, as a washed up player a team actually wanted him and is paying money for his services.) Just because it's much harder to acomplish doesn't mean it's impossible.

I'm not advocating using him in the rotation. I posted this in one of the other 34 current "dump Milton threads"; I DON'T WANT MILTON TO PITCH. I don't think he should be in the starting rotation at all in 2007. I think his days here are over and in no way should he be pitching for the Cincinnati Reds.

But none of that changes that if there is any oportunity to eek some sort of reduction in the amount of money being used for exactly zero return the reasonable thing to do is take it. Even if it's $500,000. That's likely a few extra scouts that could be hired. Or a bunch of marketing people. Wouldn't we like the team to increase their efforts in those areas? Even if it's minor league fodder. Isn't that how we acquired Aaron Harrang?

At some point we'll likly have to swallow it and DFA him. I'm fine with that. But if we can do anything to minimize the damages, the smart move is to do it.


Aaron Harang was seen as a possible #3 pitcher in the A's System when they still had Mulder, Hudson, and Zito. He was NEVER just minor league fodder, they just had no where to pitch him. The other known guy in the Guillen deal? Joe Valentine ya you could consider him minor league fodder because he never learned to control his stuff.

I am sure Krivsky has been trying to move Milton since he got here and theres been some reports/rumors that the Reds have been trying for a couple years to move him. Youre not going to get anything except maybe a couple hundred k (if youre really lucky!!!) and some 27 yr old AA player whos comtemplating retirement cause he's going no where fast.

Its not worth the risk to run him out there in any capacity because unlike the past we actually have some guys who could be good. They may not be the next coming of Randy Johnson but I believe before his fall off ERam had at one point an ERA lower than Harang and he's only 23 yrs old now. You also have Bobby Livingston who's been pretty good in ST whos 24 yrs old. Brad Salmon had an impressive year at AAA last year and a perfect spring training thus far, we have Jon Coutlangus who is 26 yrs old trying to vie for the LHRP spot.

After 2 years in Cincy I am pretty certain that I can safely say we are going to get squadush from Milton in the rotation (especially at GAB), we have options who with time could be much better and currently couldn't be much worse than Milton. Why continue to throw Milton out there in hopes someone thinks they can get him to be Jeff Weaver when chances are with his knee and injury history Milton has a better chance at being this years version of 2006 Paul Wilson.

BRM
03-28-2007, 01:54 PM
The latest from Fay:



I think, based on what Jerry Narron said yesterday, that Milton will be slid into the fifth starter spot.

flyer85
03-28-2007, 02:04 PM
As bad as Milton has been he still has a better chance of sinking to an even lower level than breaking out for a rebound season.

(according to PECOTA has a 18&#37; breakout rate and a 30% collapse rate)

TeamBoone
03-28-2007, 02:12 PM
I just heard on the 12 o'clock local news that Narron is considering moving Milton to the number five slot.

flyer85
03-28-2007, 02:14 PM
I just heard on the 12 o'clock local news that Narron is considering moving Milton to the number five slot.should be considering placing him in file 13.

TeamBoone
03-28-2007, 02:21 PM
should be considering placing him in file 13.

Couldn't agree more. They've gotta pay him no matter how they slice it so why pay him to lose. I'd rather pay him not to play.

Chip R
03-28-2007, 03:04 PM
I just heard on the 12 o'clock local news that Narron is considering moving Milton to the number five slot.


What a difference a couple of days make. The other day he told Marty that Milton wouldn't be the 5th starter cause the 5th starter would have to work out of the bullpen some. Sounds like Narron is singing a different tune after the shellacking Milton received at the hands of those kids.

Degenerate39
03-28-2007, 03:10 PM
If anyone would take him then trade him. Even if its for a bag of potato chips.