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redsupport
03-27-2007, 10:11 PM
with all the dexterous tools he has to work with and their high scrappiness factor, figure out how many blown matchups and saves narron will produce with all the great octagenarian permutations in the pen/ It would better to do what the Cards did with their bullpen and bring in younger players. Guys like Hermanson, Cormier, Stanton, Weathers are so attenuated as to be nearly worthless

Falls City Beer
03-27-2007, 10:24 PM
with all the dexterous tools he has to work with and their high scrappiness factor, figure out how many blown matchups and saves narron will produce with all the great octagenarian permutations in the pen/ It would better to do what the Cards did with their bullpen and bring in younger players. Guys like Hermanson, Cormier, Stanton, Weathers are so attenuated as to be nearly worthless

The superannuated slingers will not hit the links or the shuffleboard courses.

redsupport
03-27-2007, 11:12 PM
Does Cormier remind you of Ted Davidson on steroids or of Greg Cadaret on phen-fen

Spike
03-27-2007, 11:27 PM
I have heard Narron busting for the last 8 months. Many Redzoners bust on him. Can someone show me how he has personally lost games with his managing? Most of what I hear form his mouth is pretty right on, but I have to admit, I do not follow his "in game" decision making.

Over all, without micro-picking at him, I have been pretty impressed. other than the meltdown of the team at the end of the year (which I am not sure was his fault), I think he has taken the post Bowden years pretty well. Are their any other Narron believers out there?

Nugget
03-28-2007, 01:59 AM
I don't know where the lock on Hermanson making the team comes from. Certainly not from the REDS. Its definitely seems to be a media thing but as far as WayneK and Narron have said it seems that they will go with the best bullpen possible and if someone is able to be a closer so they can define the roles then they will. At this point I think Hermanson is as much challenging for a position in the bullpen as JC and Jared Burton.

Ravenlord
03-28-2007, 02:49 AM
I have heard Narron busting for the last 8 months. Many Redzoners bust on him. Can someone show me how he has personally lost games with his managing? Most of what I hear form his mouth is pretty right on, but I have to admit, I do not follow his "in game" decision making.without having to go through every game log, the pitch to Albert Pujols fiasco immediately comes to mind.

reds44
03-28-2007, 02:53 AM
without having to go through every game log, the pitch to Albert Pujols fiasco immediately comes to mind.
Or not having a lefty in the pen ready in case Hafner pinch hit with the bases loaded. Instead, Mays pitched to him and Hafner went year.

Or everytime he chose to play Royce Clayton over EE last year.

Honestly, I don't think he is as bad as people make him out to be though.

ghettochild
03-28-2007, 03:03 AM
I have heard Narron busting for the last 8 months. Many Redzoners bust on him. Can someone show me how he has personally lost games with his managing? Most of what I hear form his mouth is pretty right on, but I have to admit, I do not follow his "in game" decision making.

Over all, without micro-picking at him, I have been pretty impressed. other than the meltdown of the team at the end of the year (which I am not sure was his fault), I think he has taken the post Bowden years pretty well. Are their any other Narron believers out there?

http://images14.fotki.com/v336/photos/7/723557/2606350/FreeEdwin-vi.jpg
:wave:

mth123
03-28-2007, 06:10 AM
I have heard Narron busting for the last 8 months. Many Redzoners bust on him. Can someone show me how he has personally lost games with his managing? Most of what I hear form his mouth is pretty right on, but I have to admit, I do not follow his "in game" decision making.

Over all, without micro-picking at him, I have been pretty impressed. other than the meltdown of the team at the end of the year (which I am not sure was his fault), I think he has taken the post Bowden years pretty well. Are their any other Narron believers out there?

Bringing in Ryan Franklin in the 8th of a tie game with the Cardinals is the move that lost me. This was on the heels of some of the other moves posted here. Also, pitching Ramirez in relief one night and the starting him the next afternoon. EDE benching. General wrong guy at the wrong time choices over and over again.

I think Narron has some things to his credit. The way he has handled Josh Hamilton all winter and the way he handled Griffey this spring are examples, but this team needs a first rate bench coach who can be trusted to make the in-game decisions as situations evolve. It isn't Narron's strength, and other managers have had that, especially at the beginning. Sparky had George Scherger and Joe Torre had Don Zimmer to name two. I'm not sure Bucky Dent is a good fit in that role.

redsmetz
03-28-2007, 08:38 AM
Or not having a lefty in the pen ready in case Hafner pinch hit with the bases loaded. Instead, Mays pitched to him and Hafner went year.

Or everytime he chose to play Royce Clayton over EE last year.

Honestly, I don't think he is as bad as people make him out to be though.

First the bolded portion. What does this mean? Clayton only played shortstop last year for us. Perhaps you meant Juan Castro? I'm one who didnt' have a problem with some of what went on with EE last year - I think in the long run it will prove to have made him a better player.

I'm a Narron supporter, but I do know (and he acknowledged his mistake) he left Milton in after gutting through a game and we lost it after Milton let up a homer.

I'm sure there are, in fact, other games that could be laid at his feet, but I think that would prove to be true of any big league manager. There are a certain number of games a manager will blow with their mechinations.

Hoosier Red
03-28-2007, 08:51 AM
Playing Clayton at SS and Aurillia at 3b is effectively playing Clayton over EE.
I'm not sure how often that happened though.

gonelong
03-28-2007, 09:17 AM
I'm one who didnt' have a problem with some of what went on with EE last year - I think in the long run it will prove to have made him a better player.


In what way did benching the kid with no explanation, a kid that by all reports works his butt off, help him in the long run?

GL

Marc D
03-28-2007, 09:37 AM
The EE situation around the AS break last year was a complete fiasco. The man should have been fired then and there.

I haven't been on RZ that long but I've seen the same thing posted in the springtime about Miley...a claim of support followed by a request for specifics which no one has at their fingertips. Those type of posts seem to go away as the next season progresses and Miley/Narron show time and again they may be good guys but are lousy managers.

RichRed
03-28-2007, 09:46 AM
Aside from the ridiculous handling of Ramirez (called in to relief late one night, started the next, then demoted to AAA - great confidence builder for a 23-year-old):

How about when he pinch-hit for EE on July 20 with the bases loaded, despite the fact he was the Reds' best hitter with the bases loaded during the season, and ALSO despite the fact that he was already 2 for 2 with a walk up to that point in the game.

Whatever you feel about how he handled EE for his defensive shortcomings, this was another stunning example of potentially undermining a young player's confidence.

Just one of many head-scratchers by Narron.

redsmetz
03-28-2007, 12:24 PM
In what way did benching the kid with no explanation, a kid that by all reports works his butt off, help him in the long run?

GL

As I understood it last season, in fact during that time period, he was working his butt off practicing with the coaching staff repeatedly. I think, ultimately, it did him good to have the break, learn his trade, not be constantly making errors and has come back the better player for it. I never saw this handling of EE as a failure on Narron's part.

Sadly, there are some folks here who will always hate him. I think history will prove him to be a fairly decent major league manager. I continue to point to the case of Joe Torre, who had a less than stellar record at early points in his career and note that he was given the time (and didn't have to put up with the sort of harangues that come off the internet AND cable television AND talk radio these days).

I don't say Narron hasn't cost us games, but I will say, every manager in the book has done that at one time or another.

Marc D
03-28-2007, 12:44 PM
Here is a pretty good thread from last year on the EE situation.
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1083886#post1083886
Definitly more to it than a well timed break to help the kid get better at his craft.

BTW I don't hate Jerry Narron, I just don't think he's a very good manager. His win/loss record has nothing to do with that opinion.

Johnny Footstool
03-28-2007, 12:56 PM
There was a specific incident involving leaving Eric Milton in to pitch the 7th of a close game. Milton predictably gave up the lead, and afterwards, Narron admitted that he left him in the game against his better judgment as a kind of favor to Milton.

KronoRed
03-28-2007, 01:14 PM
without having to go through every game log, the pitch to Albert Pujols fiasco immediately comes to mind.

Hey he'd only hit 2 home runs in the game before that, odds were he wouldn't hit a 3rd :evil:

gonelong
03-28-2007, 01:17 PM
As I understood it last season, in fact during that time period, he was working his butt off practicing with the coaching staff repeatedly. I think, ultimately, it did him good to have the break, learn his trade, not be constantly making errors and has come back the better player for it. I never saw this handling of EE as a failure on Narron's part.

He was already working hard on learning/honing his craft, so that IMO was of no additional benefit. IMO the handling was a failure to EE as a player and to the team as a whole who didn't have the best player at the position for weeks at a time.


Sadly, there are some folks here who will always hate him.

I don't hate Narron, he seems like a likable guy, just like Miley was. In fact, I think Narron does a few things pretty well.


I think history will prove him to be a fairly decent major league manager. I continue to point to the case of Joe Torre, who had a less than stellar record at early points in his career and note that he was given the time (and didn't have to put up with the sort of harangues that come off the internet AND cable television AND talk radio these days).

I think Torre is a decent manager, but then again, he is playing with the best money can buy. I think Narron has a 50/50 chance of not even being a MLB manager next year and history will not even remember him.


I don't say Narron hasn't cost us games, but I will say, every manager in the book has done that at one time or another.

I think he consistantly utilizes his resources at less than capacity. IMO he's trying to stuff guys into a template rather than getting the most out of what they already have to offer.

GL

RichRed
03-28-2007, 01:38 PM
There was a specific incident involving leaving Eric Milton in to pitch the 7th of a close game. Milton predictably gave up the lead, and afterwards, Narron admitted that he left him in the game against his better judgment as a kind of favor to Milton.

He did this more than once, showing a penchant to not learn from his mistakes, which is disturbing.

Marc D
03-28-2007, 01:55 PM
He did this more than once, showing a penchant to not learn from his mistakes, which is disturbing.


And its not like that particular incident was just one of the many judegemnet calls that can go either way type of thing. It was so obvious Milton was gassed it is still unbeliebible to me that any MLB manager would have left him in there. No one was second guessing that move, everyone was first guessing it.

I know personally I was screaming at the t.v. "get him out of there Jerry" (PG version) but that was so obvious and such a bad decision it just sealed it for me. Narron is completely out of his depth.

My biggest criteria for a manager is to place what assests he has in the best position to succeed on a consistent basis. You can have a bad team and a losing record and still do a good job with what you have. Narron consistently proves he isn't capable of this. Bad lineups, bad bench use, bad pen use, he is a 5 tool manager on the suckitude scale.

Chip R
03-28-2007, 02:00 PM
And its not like that particular incident was just one of the many judegemnet calls that can go either way type of thing. It was so obvious Milton was gassed it is still unbeliebible to me that any MLB manager would have left him in there. No one was second guessing that move, everyone was first guessing it.

I know personally I was screaming at the t.v. "get him out of there Jerry" (PG version) but that was so obvious and such a bad decision it just sealed it for me. Narron is completely out of his depth.



I don't get too upset with bad managerial moves. I usually roll my eyes and take it in stride but this one really ticked me off. I was about as angry as I've ever been over a managerial move.

Tom Servo
03-28-2007, 05:44 PM
There was a specific incident involving leaving Eric Milton in to pitch the 7th of a close game. Milton predictably gave up the lead, and afterwards, Narron admitted that he left him in the game against his better judgment as a kind of favor to Milton.

That was a game against the Mets, one of only a dozen Reds games I got to see last year. We didn't have the lead, but as I recall had come back to score two in the 6th to make it a 3-2 game going into the 7th. Every Reds fans around the universe watching the game knew Milton was done, I especially remembering noting to myself that there was about a 100% chance of Milton giving up the Grand Slam to Beltran.

Here's a collection of quotes (leaving out a good number more) I put together from the ORG game thread for those who don't remember it:

Reds down 3-2 after 6:

Odds we see Milton in the Seventh?

Odds they score more?

both... 1 to 1


Agreed. Which should be a strong sign that he should be coming out.

But giving up 3 runs over 6 innings, and pitching a pretty good game up to this point against a darn good Met's offense should be to his credit IMO.


The 7th begins:

why is Milton still pitching?


I'm asking myself the same question. Wasn't Coffey ready? Does he expect him to throw two innings? Geesh.


Narron sends Milton out again...
Playing "press your luck"

(NO WHAMMIES)!


What the hell, Jerry? The bullpen had a day off yesterday? :rolleyes:

The carnage begins:

Get Him Out Narron


Why is Milton still in? Sorry, just got back. But this is like Ralphie not using his Red Ryder BB Gun until Easter.

Narron is playing the part of Ralphie
Maj and Bray playing the part of the BB Gun
The 8th inning is playing the part of Easter

The prelude to the end:

Take him OUT after the walk!!!!!!!! NOW JERRY


damn man, go get him


LoDuca walks. Bases juiced with Beltran up.

Hume's on the mound. No sign of a change yet.


Ok Eric, get Beltran. NO MEATBALLS, or this game is over.


Bring in Bray!!!!

Ballgame:

Grandslam! OWNED!!!


Game over.


ball game folks!


Ballgame.

What a tankjob by Milton and Narron.


Narron, this is all on you, you big dumbass


Good job Narron you idiot.


That's awesome!!! :beerme:


Nice pitch.

Spike
03-28-2007, 10:10 PM
I have been trying to follow this thread, and my question before:

I have heard Narron busting for the last 8 months. Many Redzoners bust on him. Can someone show me how he has personally lost games with his managing? Most of what I hear form his mouth is pretty right on, but I have to admit, I do not follow his "in game" decision making.

Over all, without micro-picking at him, I have been pretty impressed. other than the meltdown of the team at the end of the year (which I am not sure was his fault), I think he has taken the post Bowden years pretty well. Are their any other Narron believers out there?


has not been answered...

There seems to be two games that everyone refers to. Two games!

What seems to be overlooked is that with the cast of characters he was given, Narron did okay. We were in the playoff hunt till the end even though injuries and meltdowns (Dunn) came into play.

Then Marc D posts:

The EE situation around the AS break last year was a complete fiasco. The man should have been fired then and there.

I haven't been on RZ that long but I've seen the same thing posted in the springtime about Miley...a claim of support followed by a request for specifics which no one has at their fingertips. Those type of posts seem to go away as the next season progresses and Miley/Narron show time and again they may be good guys but are lousy managers.

Any support that I have, (and I think there a few others here at Redzone), is based on Narron's ability to work with what he has, and yes, develop what could be. Come on!

Marc D
03-28-2007, 10:22 PM
Then Marc D posts:

The EE situation around the AS break last year was a complete fiasco. The man should have been fired then and there.

I haven't been on RZ that long but I've seen the same thing posted in the springtime about Miley...a claim of support followed by a request for specifics which no one has at their fingertips. Those type of posts seem to go away as the next season progresses and Miley/Narron show time and again they may be good guys but are lousy managers.

Any support that I have, (and I think there a few others here at Redzone), is based on Narron's ability to work with what he has, and yes, develop what could be. Come on!


I would respond if I understood what it was you are trying to say, other than your opinion of Narron is obviously different than mine.

I guess ultimately we need to keep an official Narron thread here at RZ and update it every time he screws the pooch. Then next spring we won't have to hear people actually suggest all the posters who don't think much of Narron are basing their opinions on two games.

dsmith421
03-28-2007, 10:51 PM
There seems to be two games that everyone refers to. Two games!


The Reds finished how many games out of first last year?

Look, there's probably no one on this site that has the free time to go through Retrosheet and indicate specific instances. The three that came to mind immediately were the Pujols disaster, Ryan freaking Franklin pitching high-leverage innings, and Hatteberg for Encarnacion with the bases loaded. And that's just what I can remember offhand six months later.

There's also the endless parade of moronic lineups, the continued reliance on crap like Franklin (the man that steroids couldn't make effective) and Cormier. The mismanagement of Encarnacion, which was just stomach-churining (and being repeated with Denorfia right now), etc.

If you're willing to pay me for 20 hours of my time, I'll document the atrocities. Until then, anecdotal evidence will have to suffice.

WVRedsFan
03-29-2007, 12:56 AM
As I understood it last season, in fact during that time period, he was working his butt off practicing with the coaching staff repeatedly. I think, ultimately, it did him good to have the break, learn his trade, not be constantly making errors and has come back the better player for it. I never saw this handling of EE as a failure on Narron's part.

Let's see...you try to win games, right? OK. He's hot and playing well (EE that is), so you take him out to give him a break so he'll be a better player? That's really stretching it.


Sadly, there are some folks here who will always hate him. I think history will prove him to be a fairly decent major league manager.

By what criteria. Wins and losses lifetime? Not yet and probably never will. His expert handling of his pitching staff? You know, the guy who continued to make Chris Hammond his first choice out of the bullpen when he was getting his head beat off. Yep, decent stuff.


I continue to point to the case of Joe Torre, who had a less than stellar record at early points in his career and note that he was given the time (and didn't have to put up with the sort of harangues that come off the internet AND cable television AND talk radio these days).

Give any manager the NY Yankees and he dang well better be good or he's gone. Give a manager enough talent and he'll look like a world beater. The mark of a good manager is being able to juggle personnel so that you win. Narron has never shown that ability and never will.


I don't say Narron hasn't cost us games, but I will say, every manager in the book has done that at one time or another.

And I hope he someday gets over his fetish for veterans and his lack of knowledge (for a catcher) of pitching, but I also hope for world peace and winning the lottery. The Reds will be just close to being good all during the Narron days and when the ownership and management get tired of it and replace him they'll be amazed (providing they put out the money for a championship manager) at how well the new guy handles things. Of course, we bring this on ourselves with our lowered expectations. "He was 80-82? Hell, that's good. I expected to be 70-92. He's a good manager."

Give me a break...

reds44
03-29-2007, 01:04 AM
I have been trying to follow this thread, and my question before:

I have heard Narron busting for the last 8 months. Many Redzoners bust on him. Can someone show me how he has personally lost games with his managing? Most of what I hear form his mouth is pretty right on, but I have to admit, I do not follow his "in game" decision making.

Over all, without micro-picking at him, I have been pretty impressed. other than the meltdown of the team at the end of the year (which I am not sure was his fault), I think he has taken the post Bowden years pretty well. Are their any other Narron believers out there?


has not been answered...

There seems to be two games that everyone refers to. Two games!

What seems to be overlooked is that with the cast of characters he was given, Narron did okay. We were in the playoff hunt till the end even though injuries and meltdowns (Dunn) came into play.

Then Marc D posts:

The EE situation around the AS break last year was a complete fiasco. The man should have been fired then and there.

I haven't been on RZ that long but I've seen the same thing posted in the springtime about Miley...a claim of support followed by a request for specifics which no one has at their fingertips. Those type of posts seem to go away as the next season progresses and Miley/Narron show time and again they may be good guys but are lousy managers.

Any support that I have, (and I think there a few others here at Redzone), is based on Narron's ability to work with what he has, and yes, develop what could be. Come on!
You ask for specific cases of Narron blowing games, and that is a very difficult thing to do. It was a 162 game season (actually we had a tie so it was 163), so to nit pick is hard to do. Some posters have pointed out situations.

I'll ask you this. Give some specific examples of Narron winning us game.

WVRedsFan
03-29-2007, 01:30 AM
You ask for specific cases of Narron blowing games, and that is a very difficult thing to do. It was a 162 game season (actually we had a tie so it was 163), so to nit pick is hard to do. Some posters have pointed out situations.

I'll ask you think. Give some specific examples of Narron winning us game.

Good point Reds44. And I'm sure there are some, but here's the whole situation in a nutshell. Read what Spike said:


Any support that I have, (and I think there a few others here at Redzone), is based on Narron's ability to work with what he has, and yes, develop what could be. Come on!

That's been the matra of every losing coach's fans in America. I'm from West Virginia and West Virginia University had a coach once who was simply Narron-like. He'd finish 5-6 and the fans would come out of the woodwork and say that he was doing well with what he had. It never fails. The truth of the matter was that last year we had a golden opportunity to make the playoffs and Narron continued to make the wrong move more often than not. These are hard to pinpoint because sometimes it was a subtle move--leaving a pitcher in too long or having a batting order in which the OBP players were not at the top of the lineup. An example is his announcement that he'll bat OBP-poor Brandon Phillips 3rd this year. His love for old veterans over young talent. If the Reds were going to run away with the NL Central that's one thing, but...

There are guys who are championship managers. Everyone knows who they are and they cost money. When Bob Castillini (or however you spell his name--I've got to learn that soon) hired Wayne Krivsky, our fate was sealed. Narron and Krivsky hit it off immediately because they are of one mind on that issue. And it may work to keep us competitive. But it will not mean championships in Cincinnati. What will mean championships in Cincinnati is the guts to hire a Jim Leyland (who I understand wanted our job). He took raw talent and made into a World Series team. Many on here wanted Leyland when Miley was fired, but we got Narron and an extension compliments of Wayne Krivsky.

If Narron has a decent year in 2007 (which I hope the Reds have with all my heart), we'll live this nightmare until long into the 21st Century. We'll sometimes come close (like 2006), but the championship managers will always be above us--the ones who can see the diffence between a Chris Hammond and another pitcher who has good stuff. Or the guy who can see the benefit of playing a young Edwin Encarnacion over a washed-up veteran like Royce Clayton at short and a veteran like Rich Aurilia at third. The guy who can see that a 23-year-old rookie like the Lizard in no way can handle a relief appearance on one day and a start on the next. A guy who lets a human time bomb like Eric Milton go out for another inning when it's obvious he's done. A guy who lets Aaron Harang pitch too many innings (which we might be seeing the result of this spring), and who insists on carrying three catchers (one of which who has been rejected by most everyone in the major leagues).

Jerry Narron, by all accounts, is a wonderful human being, but is he the answer for the future of the Reds if we want to be championship caliber? No.

RFS62
03-29-2007, 08:16 AM
Reading those game thread quotes is undoing weeks of therapy. That was a tough one.

But we need to see things the way they are. Narron is also still learning on the job, just like the younger players.

He's going to make mistakes, and hopefully learn from them. I'd say he won't soon forget that game either.

The Reds don't hire expensive veteran managers. We give inexperienced guys the job. Aside from McKeon, look who we've hired in the last ten years.

There are so many things that go on behind the scenes in a managers job. We judge by what we see, in game decisions and lineup moves mostly. Managers are responsible for far more than that, and we rarely hear about the details.

redsmetz
03-29-2007, 09:22 AM
Reading those game thread quotes is undoing weeks of therapy. That was a tough one.

But we need to see things the way they are. Narron is also still learning on the job, just like the younger players.

He's going to make mistakes, and hopefully learn from them. I'd say he won't soon forget that game either.

The Reds don't hire expensive veteran managers. We give inexperienced guys the job. Aside from McKeon, look who we've hired in the last ten years.

There are so many things that go on behind the scenes in a managers job. We judge by what we see, in game decisions and lineup moves mostly. Managers are responsible for far more than that, and we rarely hear about the details.

I'm not sure history bears this out. Over the last 50+ years, we've hired a considerable number of experienced managers. Some have been first time managers, but except for various interim or short-lived managers, we've had a track record of going with some experience.

Birdie Tebbets 1954-1958 1st time manager
Fred Hutchinson 1959-1964 2 prior clubs (STL & DET)

Dave Bristol 1966-1969 1st time manager
Sparky Anderson 1970-1979 1st time manager

John McNamara 1979-1982 2 prior clubs (OAK & SD)
Pete Rose 1984-1989 1st time manager

Lou Piniella 1990-1992 1 prior club (NYY)
Davey Johnson 1993-1995 1 prior club (NYM)

Jack McKeon 1997-2000 3 prior clubs (KC, OAK, SD)
Bob Boone 2001-2003 1 prior club (KC)

Boldprint - Post Season

Interestingly some of our short-lived managers were guys like Vern Rapp, Dave Miley and Russ Nixon who were either very good coaches and/or successful minor league guys. It's a mixed bag frankly, but we've had our share of good managers, even if their records don't bear it out. I'm sure some of the history buffs cans tell more about some of these guys (I'm thinking of Birdie Tebbets and Dave Bristol), but, IMO, "expensive, veteran managers" doesn't necessarily equal success.

For all his mistakes, it's possible that Jerry Narron will continue to grow as a manager. Then again, maybe he'll be like Dave Bristol or Pete Rose - never quite taking the team to the top level.

RFS62
03-29-2007, 09:35 AM
You're right. I was talking about the last ten years, though.



Aside from McKeon, look who we've hired in the last ten years.

RichRed
03-29-2007, 09:48 AM
What will mean championships in Cincinnati is the guts to hire a Jim Leyland (who I understand wanted our job). He took raw talent and made into a World Series team. Many on here wanted Leyland when Miley was fired, but we got Narron and an extension compliments of Wayne Krivsky.


I'd rather have Leyland than Narron too but the guy batted Neifi Perez leadoff a few times last year. If we hired Leyland, can you imagine the RedsZone riots the first time he batted Alex Gonzalez leadoff? :)

KronoRed
03-29-2007, 11:51 AM
Nah he'd go with Phillips just for speed

Highlifeman21
03-29-2007, 03:52 PM
The biggest problem I have with Jerry Narron is his inability to put our best 8 players out there on the field.

Last year, Royce Clayton, Rich Aurilia and Juan Castro getting starts on the left side of the infield was criminal. Unfortunately, after Lopez was shipped off, Rich Aurilia was the only real option at SS, b/c Castro and Clayton are not starters at the MLB Level.

As for the OF, I could understand Dunn, Griffey and Freel after Kearns was sent to Washington, but when the GM says in a roundabout way during the trade that Chris Denorfia now had the opportunity to shine, it's Narron's fault that Denorfia got a week of PA, and then wasn't heard from again until the end of the year.

Bottomline, I cringe at Narron's inability to accurately judge talent and put the best 8 out there. He did it in 2006, he will continue to do it in 2007. I doubt more than anything, we will ever see our best 8 out there for the majority of games in 2007.

Jerry Narron, the gift that keeps on giving.

Oh, and don't even get me started on his mismanagement of the pitching staff....

RedFanAlways1966
03-29-2007, 09:27 PM
There seems to be two games that everyone refers to. Two games!


The Reds finished how many games out of first last year?

Okay, I can point out at least three games that might have been WON by good managerial moves...

(1) May 28 vs. D-Backs
> Valentin 2R PH HR 1-out 9th inning. REDS win 5-4.
(2) July 16 vs. Rockies
> Aurilia 8th inning 2-out 2R PH 1B. REDS win 6-4.
(3) Sept. 25 vs. Cubs
> Griffey 8th inning 2-out 3R PH HR. REDS win 5-4.

Hindsight is always 20-20 when you are a baseball fan and not a manager. It is understandable. I'd say it is safe to say that there are a lot more managers that need to be fired than not fired... in the eyes of the diehard fans of respective teams.

Personally I am not a big Narron fan, nor am I a guy who thinks it is important to fire Narron. I do believe that if Narron had the talent that other big-spenders get he'd do better. Such is the life in today's MLB and the life of the managers who work for teams that are in the lower 60% of all teams and their total salaries. One of those might have the pieces fall into place for a year or two, but most will eventually be looking for new employment.