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View Full Version : Chris Denorfia to be out 6 months with Tommy John surgery



Tom Servo
03-29-2007, 03:55 PM
per trent:


Final roster spot is down to hopper and moeller. That's because denorfia needs tommy john surgery and is out 6 months

JaxRed
03-29-2007, 03:57 PM
Wow

Ltlabner
03-29-2007, 03:57 PM
So it wasn't because Narron hates him? :evil:

Serriously, however, with emergance of Hamilton combined with this injury and Deno's age doesn't bode well for the lads carear.

Redsland
03-29-2007, 03:59 PM
Unbelievable.

Red Leader
03-29-2007, 04:00 PM
That is truly unfortunate. I wish Chris well for the future. Sad that he was so close but will now have an uphill battle to get back to the same spot for the rest of his career. Makes me sick to think that.

Rotater Cuff
03-29-2007, 04:00 PM
I wonder if it was caused by an active injury, or just throwing the ball repeatedly. You got to feel for this guy. Such a good trooper. Must have signed 1000's of autograph's at Redsfest.

Cyclone792
03-29-2007, 04:01 PM
Wow, that's awful. He had an excellent September last season, and I was hoping that he could finally get some playing time this season and show everyone what he's really capable of doing. But this is essentially a season ender with a small chance that he could be back sometime in September. And who knows if he'll ever fully recover and be the player that he was.

The plate appearances for Josh Hamilton in 2007 just likely went up too, especially with Griffey's injury history and Freel's wall-banging style of play.

edabbs44
03-29-2007, 04:02 PM
I'm heartbroken.

reds44
03-29-2007, 04:02 PM
So Burton and Coutlangus made the team?

Awesome.

Sorry to hear about Denorfia. I'd rather keep Norris then another catcher.

Chip R
03-29-2007, 04:05 PM
Too bad for Deno. :(

OTOH, they say that TJS makes your arm stronger. Imagine what that will do for Deno. :eek: ;)

Danny Serafini
03-29-2007, 04:06 PM
So Burton and Coutlangus made the team?

Awesome.

There are still 14 pitchers in camp, so two more need to go.

Joseph
03-29-2007, 04:07 PM
Damn

klw
03-29-2007, 04:08 PM
http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/redsinsider/


Thursday, March 29, 2007
Breaking news

Lots of it. Jery Narron and Wayne Krivsky just announced the following:

--Chris Denorfia needs "Tommy John" surgery.

--Bobby Livingston and and Gary Majewski were optioned to Louisville.

--Jeff Keppinger, Bill Bray and Elizardo Ramirez go on the DL and will rehab in the Floirda.

--Jerry Gil, Denorfia and Eddie Guardado go on the DL and come north with the team.

--Either Matt Belisle or Kirk Saarloos will be the fifth starter.

--The last position player will be Norris Hopper or Chad Moeller.

--The last relief positions will go to a two of these three: Victos Santos, Jon Courlangus or Jared Burton.

Brian
03-29-2007, 04:09 PM
From John Fay -


--Chris Denorfia needs "Tommy John" surgery.

--Bobby Livingston and and Gary Majewski were optioned to Louisville.

--Jeff Keppinger, Bill Bray and Elizardo Ramirez go on the DL and will rehab in the Floirda.

--Jerry Gil, Denorfia and Eddie Guardado go on the DL and come north with the team.

--Either Matt Belisle or Kirk Saarloos will be the fifth starter.

--The last position player will be Norris Hopper or Chad Moeller.

--The last relief positions will go to a two of these three: Victos Santos, Jon Courlangus or Jared Burton.

RichRed
03-29-2007, 04:13 PM
Poor Denorfia. :(

That is going to be one scary bad bench.

lollipopcurve
03-29-2007, 04:14 PM
tough break for Deno -- I have no doubt he'll be back strong next year, playing in the majors -- a true grinder

reds44
03-29-2007, 04:15 PM
Ok, filling in the roster here;

Pitchers: (12)
Arroyo
Belisle
Burton
Coffey
Cormier
Coutlangus
Harang
Loshe
Milton
Saarloos
Stanton
Weathers

Position Players: (13)
Ross
Javy
Castro
Conine
Edwin
Gonzalez
Hatteberg
Phillips
Dunn
Freel
Griffey
Hamilton
Hopper/Moeller

That looks about right. Santos could go in for Coutlangus, but I hope not.

vic715
03-29-2007, 04:24 PM
Deno will bounce back next year.
Livingston deserved to be in the starting rotation.At least a whole lot more than Milton.But I think everyone here agrees on that.

oneupper
03-29-2007, 04:25 PM
:( :(


Didn't Rey Rey have this done?

How well (and fast) do position players come back after this?

Joseph
03-29-2007, 04:25 PM
Poor :denorfia:

Puffy
03-29-2007, 04:26 PM
So the Reds bench looks like this: Castro, Conine, Valentin, Hamilton and Moeller (most likely)

That is one sad, sad bench for a major league team

oneupper
03-29-2007, 04:27 PM
Ok, filling in the roster here;

Hopper/Moeller

That looks about right. Santos could go in for Coutlangus, but I hope not.

I'm guessing Moeller. The reasoning being that Conine can play the OF and Javy can stand in at 1B if necessary. Not that I like that.

reds44
03-29-2007, 04:28 PM
So the Reds bench looks like this: Castro, Conine, Valentin, Hamilton and Moeller (most likely)

That is one sad, sad bench for a major league team
How many teams in the NL don't have a bad bench?

bounty37h
03-29-2007, 04:28 PM
I wonder if it was caused by an active injury, or just throwing the ball repeatedly. You got to feel for this guy. Such a good trooper. Must have signed 1000's of autograph's at Redsfest.

Glad to hear that, as I have been a lil down on him after his appearance here in Durham with the Bats last year-he was not only not signing, but pretty rude about it towards fans.

edabbs44
03-29-2007, 04:31 PM
Knowing Deno, he'll come back like that kid from Rookie of the Year.

http://www.baseballmovie.com/images/rookie-of-year.jpg

MartyFan
03-29-2007, 04:31 PM
I like Deno, not a huge fan but I LIKE HIM ...Just got a thud in my stomach over this one...too bad.

Puffy
03-29-2007, 04:33 PM
How many teams in the NL don't have a bad bench?

Ok, thats an awful bench. Not many teams have an awful bench.

Castro is useless offensively and has little range in the field yet he is the only backup for 2nd, 3rd and short.

Conine is 137 years old and, and well, is what he is

Hamilton has all the potential in the world but he is going to struggle against Major League pitching. Guy hasn't played above A-ball and he's just going to struggle. He's good though, just maybe not yet.

Moeller is horrible. Nuff said

Valentin is what he is which is more in line with last year over two years ago. Not even close to the worst backup in the league, but still he's OK at best.

Awful bench.

Redsland
03-29-2007, 04:37 PM
Knowing Deno, he'll come back like that kid from Rookie of the Year.
As a Cub?

:)

Caveat Emperor
03-29-2007, 04:38 PM
Awful bench.

Yeah, seriously -- if you need a base hit late in a game, who the hell are you turning to out of that lot? I'd almost be more comfortable with Milton coming off the bench to pinch hit than Castro, Moeller or Conine.

Not a lot of good bats in Louisville either...for once, the surplus is in starting pitching instead of hitting. The Reds better hope someone catches fire down there.

Red Leader
03-29-2007, 04:38 PM
Knowing Deno, he'll come back like that kid from Rookie of the Year.



Did he just say, Funky Butt-loving?

Heath
03-29-2007, 04:39 PM
Well, I think it's time to change the ol' Sig line.

Handofdeath
03-29-2007, 04:42 PM
Ok, filling in the roster here;

Pitchers: (12)
Arroyo
Belisle
Burton
Coffey
Cormier
Coutlangus
Harang
Loshe
Milton
Saarloos
Stanton
Weathers

Position Players: (13)
Ross
Javy
Castro
Conine
Edwin
Gonzalez
Hatteberg
Phillips
Dunn
Freel
Griffey
Hamilton
Hopper/Moeller

That looks about right. Santos could go in for Coutlangus, but I hope not.


75-85 wins seems about right. IF everyone stays healthy and plays up to potential I could see a possible 90 win season. The outfield is too brittle not to keep Hopper and keeping a 3rd catcher is asinine but Hopper insists on using a fungo bat to hit so who knows?

Red Leader
03-29-2007, 04:45 PM
Yeah, seriously -- if you need a base hit late in a game, who the hell are you turning to out of that lot? I'd almost be more comfortable with Milton coming off the bench to pinch hit than Castro, Moeller or Conine.

Not a lot of good bats in Louisville either...for once, the surplus is in starting pitching instead of hitting. The Reds better hope someone catches fire down there.


I'd almost be tempted to move Conine to a backup OFer and bring Votto up to serve as the backup first baseman just to get a better bat on the bench. Of course, it really doesn't help Votto's development to sit on the bench, so I'd make him the starting first baseman and move Hatte to the bench if I were to go that route. Probably would do all of that right out of the gate, but I'd consider it in May.

RichRed
03-29-2007, 04:47 PM
Boy, the days of all that outfield depth (Junior, Dunn, Kearns, Wily Mo) are starting to seem like a long time ago, aren't they?

medford
03-29-2007, 04:52 PM
Too bad for Deno. :(

OTOH, they say that TJS makes your arm stronger. Imagine what that will do for Deno. :eek: ;)

I hear Mr Coombs has TJS on the 3rd monday of evey month to keep his arm strong :)

Strikes Out Looking
03-29-2007, 04:53 PM
Conine is 137 years old and, and well, is what he is



But it's a young 137 years old :laugh:

BEETTLEBUG
03-29-2007, 04:56 PM
Where is Hermanson on your 25 man roster? I don't see him.

reds44
03-29-2007, 04:57 PM
Where is Hermanson on your 25 man roster? I don't see him.
Good point, I left him out.

IslandRed
03-29-2007, 05:03 PM
I hope Wayne's watching the waiver wire. Maybe we can pull a decent bat from some other club's last-minute out-of-options cuts, similar to how we got Brandon Phillips last year.

thorn
03-29-2007, 05:13 PM
So when Freel runs into Griffey and gets a concussion and Griffey gets a seperated shoulder, who is going to man the OF... Hamilton, Conine and Hooper?

Lets hope Griffey and Freel stay healthy, that's a scary thought. Who do we have in the minors in case this happens? Bruce?

Red Leader
03-29-2007, 05:14 PM
So when Freel runs into Griffey and gets a concussion and Griffey gets a seperated shoulder, who is going to man the OF... Hamilton, Conine and Hooper?

Lets hope Griffey and Freel stay healthy, that's a scary thought. Who do we have in the minors in case this happens? Bruce?


Jay Bruce is not major league ready. We are extremely thin in the OF in the upper levels of the minors. Gil might be the best optino after he comes off the DL. :eek:

M2
03-29-2007, 05:29 PM
So when Freel runs into Griffey and gets a concussion and Griffey gets a seperated shoulder, who is going to man the OF... Hamilton, Conine and Hooper?

Lets hope Griffey and Freel stay healthy, that's a scary thought. Who do we have in the minors in case this happens? Bruce?

I was saying a few months back that the Reds can't afford more than one injury because the team is so thin. Deno's it.

That's particularly bad news because, as you point out, Jr. and Freel are far from durable. Deno was one of the supposedly healthy guys who were going to be needed to cover for the gimpy ones.

It's a bummer for Deno, who was going to get his chances this year. Yet this injury also removes the safety net for the offense. The next guy that goes down takes a big chunk of production with him.

As for guys from the minors, Chris Dickerson and Javon Moran form the line behind Hamilton, Hopper and Crosby.

reds44
03-29-2007, 05:31 PM
I'm pretty sure Moran was dealt in one of the bajillon deals Wayne made. I think it was for Conine.

DoogMinAmo
03-29-2007, 05:33 PM
They need to sign Eduardo perez for the bench, and send both Moeller and Hopper down.

reds44
03-29-2007, 05:33 PM
They need to sign Eduardo perez for the bench, and send both Moeller and Hopper down.
Where can Perez play? He'd be like our 4th 1st baseman.

Hopper is needed more then both of them.

edabbs44
03-29-2007, 05:36 PM
Where can Perez play? He'd be like our 4th 1st baseman.

Hopper is needed more then both of them.

Cut Conine.

Handofdeath
03-29-2007, 05:39 PM
I was saying a few months back that the Reds can't afford more than one injury because the team is so thin. Deno's it.

That's particularly bad news because, as you point out, Jr. and Freel are far from durable. Deno was one of the supposedly healthy guys who were going to be needed to cover for the gimpy ones.

It's a bummer for Deno, who was going to get his chances this year. Yet this injury also removes the safety net for the offense. The next guy that goes down takes a big chunk of production with him.

As for guys from the minors, Chris Dickerson and Javon Moran form the line behind Hamilton, Hopper and Crosby.

This is why the Reds have signed so many relievers and guys like Moeller. Krivsky KNOWS that Jr. and/or Freel will be hurt and he'll eat a contract if it means a better team. A trade is coming.

reds44
03-29-2007, 05:40 PM
Jacque Jones anyone?

God I hope not.

jojo
03-29-2007, 05:40 PM
A trade is coming.

But what would it look like?

Tom Servo
03-29-2007, 05:56 PM
Jacque Jones anyone?

God I hope not.
He's another lefty and plays for the rival, I doubt that will happen.

If I'm Wayne I'd look at a guys like Ryan Spilborghs and Jason Tyner. Jason Botts would be a good target too as someone real cheap to get, but he can't play CF.

Will M
03-29-2007, 06:04 PM
IMO losing Deno really hurts the bench. Freel & Griffey are going to get hurt.
I expected Deno to get 300+ at bats.

Conine is 1B/LF only. He is NOT a RF.

If Hamilton doesn't hit major league pitching this year we will need another OF. Now the good news is that an OF is easier to get than a pitcher. Heck, if BC wanted to pay Reggie Sanders salary he could be in a Reds uniform tonight.

Eric_Davis
03-29-2007, 06:14 PM
Trade someone for Cory Sullivan. The Rockies chose to keep Finley over him even though Sullivan hit better than Finley each of the last two years. Sullivan is also a better defender than Finley. He has no power, but good enough average and OBP. He's 27 and is now too old to be hanging around the minors. He either performs at the Major League level as a 5th outfielder or he retires.

He could be had inexpensively, yet fill a role on this club.

Highlifeman21
03-29-2007, 06:21 PM
My only hope to salvage the 2007 season is that we'll see a platoon of Freel and Griffey in RF, and Hamilton will be our everyday CF now that Denorfia is on the shelf for 6 months.

I know that's a lot of pressure to put on Josh Hamilton, but I have zero faith in Freel as an everyday player, and zero faith in Griffey to play 120+ games. Therefore, to maximize their production, a platoon only makes the most sense.

I wonder if Krivsky has the stones to trade either Wood or Cueto, or maybe both of them for something that can help us for 2007 or 2008, aka an everyday OF or a #3 SP. I wonder if we have enough trading chips to get both a #3 SP and an everyday OF to replace Denorfia.

I know very few were on the Denorfia bandwagon, and actually put him on the depth chart below Freel, Griffey and Hamilton, but I still maintain the kid is a potential perennial Gold Glove OF.

This kid will be missed.

Heal quickly Chris Denorfia, this team will sorely need you in 2008.

tripleaaaron
03-29-2007, 06:28 PM
Knowing Deno, he'll come back like that kid from Rookie of the Year.

http://www.baseballmovie.com/images/rookie-of-year.jpg

HA! that is exactly what my thought was! but seriously this is unfortunate because he was so close. I wish him the best

Team Clark
03-29-2007, 06:39 PM
That really sucks for Deno. He'll work hard as usual and come back strong. What a shame. He would have a great opportunity this year.

So much for Narron's quote about Deno's injury not being "too serious"....

Big Klu
03-29-2007, 06:40 PM
Cut Conine.

Why cut Conine for Eduardo Perez? I mean, I'm as much of a BRM homer as anyone, but Jeff Conine is, and has always been, a better player than Eduardo Perez. Sure, I would have preferred Craig Wilson (who is a better player than either Conine or Perez at this stage of his career)--I have always been a fan of his game. But to say that Perez is a better option than Conine is wrong-headed, IMO.

As for Conine's age being a big minus--he is only three years older than Perez, and probably in better physical condition.

MrCinatit
03-29-2007, 06:44 PM
Well, this is certainly not something I wanted to wake up to.

Dietz80
03-29-2007, 06:46 PM
Hopper needs to play every day, and Moeller doesn't.

Hoper would be a 6th outfielder, where as moeller is a third catcher behind a second catcher that bats left and plays first base.

Take Hopper if Freel is a primary backup infielder, Moeller if not.

however I still hate three cat catchers even if it does improve Ross's numbers.

ehhh flip a coin.

M2
03-29-2007, 06:50 PM
I'm pretty sure Moran was dealt in one of the bajillon deals Wayne made. I think it was for Conine.

Oh yeah, I completely zoned on that. Thanks for the reminder.

M2
03-29-2007, 06:52 PM
I like the idea of plucking Sullivan or Spillborghs (Mistress of the Dark) from the Rockies.

Handofdeath
03-29-2007, 06:57 PM
But what would it look like?

It will be for a corner OF to be sure. An example Todd Coffey for Mark Teahen. I'm not saying I'm for or against but I would not be surprised at that kind of trade. Something along those lines.

Degenerate39
03-29-2007, 07:00 PM
Damn I did not see this one coming

Eric_Davis
03-29-2007, 07:07 PM
I like the idea of plucking Sullivan or Spillborghs (Mistress of the Dark) from the Rockies.

Spilborghs looks to be a better hitter and can also play all three outfield positions. Cormier might be too much to give for him as he was going to be the Rockies 6th outfielder, but whatever Krivsky could work out, I agree with you that he should try to get one of them. Like Sullivan, he's 27, but had better numbers at every level (more avg/obp/slg).

TexRed
03-29-2007, 07:08 PM
If the last spot is between Moeller and Hopper, they'll have to go with Hopper.

jojo
03-29-2007, 07:10 PM
Spilborghs looks to be a better hitter and can also play all three outfield positions. Cormier might be too much to give for him as he was going to be the Rockies 6th outfielder, but whatever Krivsky could work out, I agree with you that he should try to get one of them. Like Sullivan, he's 27, but had better numbers at every level (more avg/obp/slg).

OMG, dumping Courmier and his salary on the Rockies for someone potentially useful would be brilliant.....

Krivsky would buy atleast a half of a season's exemption from criticism if he could pull that off....

:notworthy

edabbs44
03-29-2007, 07:32 PM
Why cut Conine for Eduardo Perez? I mean, I'm as much of a BRM homer as anyone, but Jeff Conine is, and has always been, a better player than Eduardo Perez. Sure, I would have preferred Craig Wilson (who is a better player than either Conine or Perez at this stage of his career)--I have always been a fan of his game. But to say that Perez is a better option than Conine is wrong-headed, IMO.

As for Conine's age being a big minus--he is only three years older than Perez, and probably in better physical condition.

Perez mashes lefties. Conine does not. Conine should have never been acquired.

KronoRed
03-29-2007, 07:52 PM
If the last spot is between Moeller and Hopper, they'll have to go with Hopper.

I'd be shocked if they did.

Eric_Davis
03-29-2007, 08:20 PM
I'm sure this has already been said, but at least we know what Narron and Krivsky were referring to about "a lot of injuries" . Let's hope that's the end of the serious ones.

Eric_Davis
03-29-2007, 08:21 PM
There's always Reggie Sanders. The Royals are willing to eat all of his salary.

M2
03-29-2007, 08:28 PM
There's always Reggie Sanders. The Royals are willing to eat all of his salary.

I'd take Reggie in a heartbeat. Actually it would be nice to see him get a swansong with the Reds. He's a class act.

reds44
03-29-2007, 08:32 PM
Perez mashes lefties. Conine does not. Conine should have never been acquired.
And that helps outfield depth how?

pedro
03-29-2007, 08:34 PM
There's always Reggie Sanders. The Royals are willing to eat all of his salary.

I'd feel a lot more comfortable about the Reds chances with someone like Reggie Sanders on the roster.

Ltlabner
03-29-2007, 08:34 PM
There's always Steve Finley..... :evil:

[ducks]

pedro
03-29-2007, 08:35 PM
There's always Steve Finley..... :evil:

[ducks]

the Reds need someone who bats RH.

Falls City Beer
03-29-2007, 08:38 PM
There's always Steve Finley..... :evil:

[ducks]

Good lord: with Conine and Finley both on the roster, Marty and Thom would have to invest in a crate of saltpeter.

Ltlabner
03-29-2007, 08:41 PM
Good lord: with Conine and Finley both on the roster, Marty and Thom would have to invest in a crate of saltpeter.

As much as I like Marty, his bizzare pimping for Finley over the offseason is impossible to comprehend. Almost awkward it is.

reds44
03-29-2007, 08:45 PM
Re: Reggie Sanders

I would like to see us go after someone younger, but

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/mlb/mlbrumors.html

O's still mulling Sanders deal
March 29
Washington Post (scroll down) (registration required): "The Orioles have a standing offer from the Kansas City Royals for outfielder Reggie Sanders, according to a team source, but they've yet to decide whether they'll accept the offer."

Cut made, O's roster is anything but final
March 29
Baltimore Sun (registration required): "They've held more discussions with the Kansas City Royals about Reggie Sanders, who will make $5 million this season. The Royals want left-hander Brian Burres in return and would absorb a significant portion of Sanders' salary, but an industry source said the Orioles don't believe they could provide enough at-bats for the veteran, so a deal is unlikely. The same source also said the Orioles have held internal discussions about signing Eduardo Perez, who was released Tuesday by the Chicago White Sox."

cacollinsmba
03-29-2007, 08:49 PM
Looking at ESPN's free agent tracker, the only outfielders I see left are Michael Tucker, Todd Hollandsworth and Bernie Williams. Not much help there.

hebroncougar
03-29-2007, 08:51 PM
I'd take Reggie in a heartbeat. Do they want Moeller???:thumbup:

edabbs44
03-29-2007, 08:53 PM
And that helps outfield depth how?

Not talking about outfield depth.

Team Clark
03-29-2007, 08:54 PM
I like the idea of plucking Sullivan or Spillborghs (Mistress of the Dark) from the Rockies.

I have watched the Rockies A LOT this spring via FSN. I'll take either one or both if possible.

edabbs44
03-29-2007, 08:56 PM
I have watched the Rockies A LOT this spring via FSN. I'll take either one or both if possible.

How about Jeff Baker?

Always Red
03-29-2007, 08:58 PM
Wow...Deno's gone. That changes everything. Hammy's gotta grow up, quickly.

Hopper probably makes the team now.

Man, I can't believe it. Anyone know how and when he hurt his arm?

Ltlabner
03-29-2007, 09:01 PM
It's always risky trading within in the division, but I like that Matt Murton kid on the Cubs. He's a righty and has a nice VORP (as a LF, not sure how that changes if he moves over to RF and/or CF).

Willy
03-29-2007, 09:01 PM
My only hope to salvage the 2007 season is that we'll see a platoon of Freel and Griffey in RF, and Hamilton will be our everyday CF now that Denorfia is on the shelf for 6 months.

I know that's a lot of pressure to put on Josh Hamilton, but I have zero faith in Freel as an everyday player, and zero faith in Griffey to play 120+ games. Therefore, to maximize their production, a platoon only makes the most sense.

I wonder if Krivsky has the stones to trade either Wood or Cueto, or maybe both of them for something that can help us for 2007 or 2008, aka an everyday OF or a #3 SP. I wonder if we have enough trading chips to get both a #3 SP and an everyday OF to replace Denorfia.

I know very few were on the Denorfia bandwagon, and actually put him on the depth chart below Freel, Griffey and Hamilton, but I still maintain the kid is a potential perennial Gold Glove OF.

This kid will be missed.

Heal quickly Chris Denorfia, this team will sorely need you in 2008.

Taking your best two players and having them platoon so you can start a player who has been out of the game for several years and never played above AA is not a real smart move.

Denorfia is a solid player but far from a perennial Gold Glover.

Just saying.

reds44
03-29-2007, 09:02 PM
It's always risky trading within in the division, but I like that Matt Murton kid on the Cubs. He's a righty and has a nice VORP.
I would LOVE to get Matt Murton, but I don't see the Cubs trading him.

edabbs44
03-29-2007, 09:04 PM
Taking your best two playersand having them platoon so you can start a player who has been out of the game for several years and never played above AA is not a real smart move.

Denorfia is a solid player but far from a perennial Gold Glover.

Just saying.

No, no, no....he said Freel and Griffey. I'm not sure how you misunderstood that.

reds44
03-29-2007, 09:05 PM
No, no, no....he said Freel and Griffey. I'm not sure how you misunderstood that.
They are both, at this point, still much better then Hamilton.

edabbs44
03-29-2007, 09:07 PM
They are both, at this point, still much better then Hamilton.

Dude...he called them the two best players on the team.

I would not have any issues with a platoon for Jr. Look at his numbers vs LHPs last season. Putrid.

Willy
03-29-2007, 09:08 PM
No, no, no....he said Freel and Griffey. I'm not sure how you misunderstood that.

Yeah that was a typo, I wanted to say two of your best

reds44
03-29-2007, 09:09 PM
Dude...he called them the two best players on the team.

I would not have any issues with a platoon for Jr. Look at his numbers vs LHPs last season. Putrid.
I know what he called them.

Doesn't change the fact that handing Hamilton the CF job is a bad idea.

mth123
03-29-2007, 09:15 PM
I'd take Reggie in a heartbeat. Actually it would be nice to see him get a swansong with the Reds. He's a class act.

Royals owe us a player from the Larue deal. Sanders would be a good choice right now. He and Griffey could share RF pretty well I'd say and he could spot for Dunn as well. Especially nice since the Royals are willing to pay his salary. I'd push for more pay relief and pawn off Cormier. (I know that won't happen.)

edabbs44
03-29-2007, 09:16 PM
I know what he called them.

Doesn't change the fact that handing Hamilton the CF job is a bad idea.

Never said it was good. But they should platoon Jr.

Change Griffey's name to Smith and it's a no brainer.

Always Red
03-29-2007, 09:28 PM
Reggie Sanders a PTBNL?

I'll believe it when I see it. And I do know the Royals want to be rid of Reggie.

That's a lot of salary for a 4th or 5th OF.

Big Klu
03-29-2007, 09:45 PM
Never said it was good. But they should platoon Jr.

Change Griffey's name to Smith and it's a no brainer.

Reggie Smith is probably available! :D



There's always Reggie Sanders. The Royals are willing to eat all of his salary.

I would love to have Reggie Sanders on this team, and I would even be willing to take on some of the salary to get it done.

FlightRick
03-29-2007, 10:44 PM
They should platoon Jr.

Change Griffey's name to Smith and it's a no brainer.

OK, player J. Smith has career numbers that look like this:

.291 BA / .375 OB / .557 SLG.

With "counting stats" that, when normalized to a 162 Game Average, come out to:

41 HR / 117 RBI / 106 R

Over a decade-and-a-half, those numbers make "J. Smith" a first-ballot Hall of Famer, and nobody disputes this.

"J. Smith" has run into the trouble the past six years, and has played only an average of 94 games per year. However, when he's on the field, his stat line (again, normalized to 162 games, for comparative purposes) looks like this from 2001-2006:

.272 BA / .350 OB / .525 SLG
38 HR / 100 RBI / 90 R

Just counting "J. Smith's" two most recent campaigns, his 2005-2006 stat averages (again, expanded out to 162 games) are this:

.278 BA / .345 OB / .535 SLG
42 HR / 112 RBI / 101 R

Using the most recent numbers, and hoping against hope that he plays in 140 games, you would be looking at him getting about 520 ABs and posting a stat line of roughly:

.278 / .345 / .535
37 HR / 97 RBI / 87 R

Do you platoon this man?

I don't. I may get disappointed that things haven't exactly worked out the way I'd've hoped the past six years. I may be frustrated over this man's brittleness. I may even lament the loss of base-running and defensive skills that are not adequately addressed in my self-serving choice of statistcal analysis. But I don't platoon him.

Caveat Emperor
03-29-2007, 10:47 PM
I would love to have Reggie Sanders on this team, and I would even be willing to take on some of the salary to get it done.

I'd take on as much of the salary as is necessary to get the deal done. A reliable RH OF bat with pop is almost essential on a team that seems, at the this point, to be banking on Ken Griffey Jr. and Ryan Freel staying healthy all year.

If Votto starts hot, it might free the Reds to unload Hatteberg for a RH bat -- but I'm in the minority that thinks Hatteberg's plate discipline is a good thing to have around the clubhouse, so I'm not sure how gung ho I'd be about dealing him if the return isn't great.

BEETTLEBUG
03-29-2007, 10:49 PM
We will trade Milton and Cormier for Gobble and R. Sanders

MississippiRed
03-29-2007, 10:54 PM
We will trade Milton and Cormier for Gobble and R. Sanders

I love this trade and had never heard of Gobble before today. He could be a 12-pound Butterball and I'd still love the trade. Would the Royals even sniff at it?

mth123
03-29-2007, 10:56 PM
OK, player J. Smith has career numbers that look like this:

.291 BA / .375 OB / .557 SLG.

With "counting stats" that, when normalized to a 162 Game Average, come out to:

41 HR / 117 RBI / 106 R

Over a decade-and-a-half, those numbers make "J. Smith" a first-ballot Hall of Famer, and nobody disputes this.

"J. Smith" has run into the trouble the past six years, and has played only an average of 94 games per year. However, when he's on the field, his stat line (again, normalized to 162 games, for comparative purposes) looks like this from 2001-2006:

.272 BA / .350 OB / .525 SLG
38 HR / 100 RBI / 90 R

Just counting "J. Smith's" two most recent campaigns, his 2005-2006 stat averages (again, expanded out to 162 games) are this:

.278 BA / .345 OB / .535 SLG
42 HR / 112 RBI / 101 R

Using the most recent numbers, and hoping against hope that he plays in 140 games, you would be looking at him getting about 520 ABs and posting a stat line of roughly:

.278 / .345 / .535
37 HR / 97 RBI / 87 R

Do you platoon this man?

I don't. I may get disappointed that things haven't exactly worked out the way I'd've hoped the past six years. I may be frustrated over this man's brittleness. I may even lament the loss of base-running and defensive skills that are not adequately addressed in my self-serving choice of statistcal analysis. But I don't platoon him.

Except J Smith is now in the twilight of his career, struggled against LH Pitching last year, and can't play the 162 games that he is being expanded to. J. Smith has some leg problems that would have forced just about any player from the game prior to his revolutionary surgery and needs rest. Seems like a platoon would accomplish several things. 1. It gives aging and fragile J. Smth the rest he needs 2. It limits his exposure to his weakness 3. It provides some regular ABs to keep the bench guy sharp.

I'm not sure a strict platoon is where I'd go yet. But it isn't a terrible idea and I'd surely give J. Smith his needed rest when the situation is most advantageous (like against LH Pitching).

FlightRick
03-29-2007, 11:14 PM
Except J Smith is now in the twilight of his career, struggled against LH Pitching last year, and can't play the 162 games that he is being expanded to.

That's precisely why I included the final stat line, based on estimates of 140 games (or 500-ish ABs). Not an everyday player, but if he stays healthy, still well short of a platoon situation or the way they're gonna baby Bonds in SF this year.

No major injuries, but taking off every "day game after a night game" and a few other days of rest here and there (plus the lower AB total because he'd be a reasonable guy to take out in late game situations for a defensive sub), and you're basically looking at a 500-ish AB season that pretty-closely matches what you can expect out of Dunn (maybe a little higher on the BA, lower on the OB). Granted, it might turn out that our Hypothetical Player has yet another bodily implosion, and 500 ABs is a crazily optimistic projection... but he *has* done this as recently as 2005, and my main point was that this is still a guy who I think you run out there as regularly as you can.

Or at least: you don't go out of your way looking for excuses to sit him on the pine.

mth123
03-29-2007, 11:29 PM
That's precisely why I included the final stat line, based on estimates of 140 games (or 500-ish ABs). Not an everyday player, but if he stays healthy, still well short of a platoon situation or the way they're gonna baby Bonds in SF this year.

No major injuries, but taking off every "day game after a night game" and a few other days of rest here and there (plus the lower AB total because he'd be a reasonable guy to take out in late game situations for a defensive sub), and you're basically looking at a 500-ish AB season that pretty-closely matches what you can expect out of Dunn (maybe a little higher on the BA, lower on the OB). Granted, it might turn out that our Hypothetical Player has yet another bodily implosion, and 500 ABs is a crazily optimistic projection... but he *has* done this as recently as 2005, and my main point was that this is still a guy who I think you run out there as regularly as you can.

Or at least: you don't go out of your way looking for excuses to sit him on the pine.

How about this reason? 2006 Vs. LH Pitching in 160 PA .204/.256/.415/.671.
He doesn't hit, get on base or have much power against LH. Since, you yourself, "lament the loss of his baserunning and defensive skills" what reason should he be in the line-up against a LH?

He needs rest. Against a LH is the best time to do it. That will require a decent RH OF (Conine ain't it and neither is Hopper IMO).

FlightRick
03-30-2007, 12:06 AM
How about this reason? 2006 Vs. LH Pitching in 160 PA .204/.256/.415/.671.
He doesn't hit, get on base or have much power against LH. Since, you yourself, "lament the loss of his baserunning and defensive skills" what reason should he be in the line-up against a LH?

Oy. I shouldn't have gotten myself into this. I'm so not a Stat Wanker. I freaking HATE Stat Wankers. But I go and have some free time in a given night, and look what I turn into?

Here's the last set of numbers I'll yank out of my rump. Well, out of baseball-reference.com's rump.... CAREER vs. LH pitching:

.277 / .347 / .520 / .867

Did something mysterious and magical happen in 2006 that caused our Hypothetical Player to become an infiniately easier out for LH pitching? Or is this a statistical anomoly? I dunno, I honestly don't. But my gut says that it's probably a bit unwise to put too much emphasis on 160 plate appearances from a guy who's stepped into the batter's box nearly 10,000 times in his career (3,000 versus lefties). Even if they are the most recent 160.

That's why I'm sorta finding myself pro-Junior here (well, "pro-J. Smith"): you can look at his career numbers, look at his last six years numbers, and the fall-off is noticeable but not catastrophic (other than the fact that he's averaging about half-a-season since 2001). In his most recent two years, the numbers are even CLOSER to his career averages. It's hard for me to look at a single-year RHP/LHP split and consider that damning evidence. Not till it happens again, anyway.

I will, however, grant that a 2007 Reds' Potential Reds' Solution would be a RH OF (Not Currently On the Roster). Not so much because Junior is a Reds' Problem (though even my Best Case Scenario means he's leaving 150 ABs or so for somebody else in RF), but because we have a bothersome blend of deficiencies and uncertainties with our third OF spot.

We are, if nothing, united in our Conine Loathing....

mth123
03-30-2007, 12:18 AM
Oy. I shouldn't have gotten myself into this. I'm so not a Stat Wanker. I freaking HATE Stat Wankers. But I go and have some free time in a given night, and look what I turn into?

Here's the last set of numbers I'll yank out of my rump. Well, out of baseball-reference.com's rump.... CAREER vs. LH pitching:

.277 / .347 / .520 / .867

Did something mysterious and magical happen in 2006 that caused our Hypothetical Player to become an infiniately easier out for LH pitching? Or is this a statistical anomoly? I dunno, I honestly don't. But my gut says that it's probably a bit unwise to put too much emphasis on 160 plate appearances from a guy who's stepped into the batter's box nearly 10,000 times in his career (3,000 versus lefties). Even if they are the most recent 160.

That's why I'm sorta finding myself pro-Junior here (well, "pro-J. Smith"): you can look at his career numbers, look at his last six years numbers, and the fall-off is noticeable but not catastrophic (other than the fact that he's averaging about half-a-season since 2001). In his most recent two years, the numbers are even CLOSER to his career averages. It's hard for me to look at a single-year RHP/LHP split and consider that damning evidence. Not till it happens again, anyway.

I will, however, grant that a 2007 Reds' Potential Reds' Solution would be a RH OF (Not Currently On the Roster). Not so much because Junior is a Reds' Problem (though even my Best Case Scenario means he's leaving 150 ABs or so for somebody else in RF), but because we have a bothersome blend of deficiencies and uncertainties with our third OF spot.

We are, if nothing, united in our Conine Loathing....

Good discussion. I think his career stats are too heavily influenced by his time as an all-century player in Seattle. His 2006 seems more an indication of a guy who is 38 with an unprecedented injury. I got into this because the idea of a platoon seems like the best way to get him the rest he needs. If you're going to rest a guy, it may as well be at the right time. He could probably still play against weaker HR prone lefties (Milton would be a good match-up for Griffey I'd guess).

Big Klu
03-30-2007, 12:23 AM
I'd take on as much of the salary as is necessary to get the deal done. A reliable RH OF bat with pop is almost essential on a team that seems, at the this point, to be banking on Ken Griffey Jr. and Ryan Freel staying healthy all year.

If Votto starts hot, it might free the Reds to unload Hatteberg for a RH bat -- but I'm in the minority that thinks Hatteberg's plate discipline is a good thing to have around the clubhouse, so I'm not sure how gung ho I'd be about dealing him if the return isn't great.

I'm with you. I would be willing to take on virtually all of Sanders' salary--I just don't want to give up a high-quality prospect to get him. I'm also with you in regards to Hatteberg. I think he is an asset.

Ron Madden
03-30-2007, 02:35 AM
So the Reds bench looks like this: Castro, Conine, Valentin, Hamilton and Moeller (most likely)

That is one sad, sad bench for a major league team

Yep, it's a very weak bench in the hands of a Manager with no clue how to use his bench.:yikes:

dougdirt
03-30-2007, 02:37 AM
Yep, it's a very weak bench in the hands of a Manager with no clue how to use his bench.:yikes:

What makes it even worse is that Griffey and Freel can't play every day... and the depth just isn't there to allow that. We are really screwed if that is our bench.

757690
03-30-2007, 02:47 AM
It is sad, especially since this might be the end of his career. But in term of how this effects the reds bench, they were shopping him around. This could be a blessing ins disguise, since when he comes back next year, the outfield might not be so crowded.

reds44
03-30-2007, 03:21 AM
What makes it even worse is that Griffey and Freel can't play every day... and the depth just isn't there to allow that. We are really screwed if that is our bench.
Which makes it even dumber if they keep Moeller over Hopper.

Ron Madden
03-30-2007, 03:27 AM
Which makes it even dumber if they keep Moeller over Hopper.

Jerry was a back up catcher. He knows more than we do just how important it is to carry a bunch of back up catchers. ;)

klw
03-30-2007, 08:55 AM
Which makes it even dumber if they keep Moeller over Hopper.


Well is Hopper even healthy enough to be picked over Moeller at this point? wasn't he in a boot last we heard?

bomarl1969
03-30-2007, 09:01 AM
I doubt this is anything to get your panties in a bunch about...Denorfia IMO wasn't that good. I'd rather see a rookie with potential like Hamilton instead of Denorfia anyway.

Will M
03-30-2007, 09:54 AM
How about this reason? 2006 Vs. LH Pitching in 160 PA .204/.256/.415/.671.
He doesn't hit, get on base or have much power against LH. Since, you yourself, "lament the loss of his baserunning and defensive skills" what reason should he be in the line-up against a LH?

He needs rest. Against a LH is the best time to do it. That will require a decent RH OF (Conine ain't it and neither is Hopper IMO).

if we can get 100-110 games in RF out of Griffey and get decent production with him playing vs RHP then i will be happy. I was fully expecting Deno to be playing RF vs LHP. Now that he is gone we very much need a player who can play RF well defensively ( ie not Conine ) and hit LHP.

BRM
03-30-2007, 09:57 AM
I fear we are going to be see a lot of Jeff Conine in the OF this season. :help:

Man I hope Wayne pulls the trigger on a trade for a RH hitting outfielder.

Willy
03-30-2007, 11:08 AM
Oy. I shouldn't have gotten myself into this. I'm so not a Stat Wanker. I freaking HATE Stat Wankers. But I go and have some free time in a given night, and look what I turn into?

Here's the last set of numbers I'll yank out of my rump. Well, out of baseball-reference.com's rump.... CAREER vs. LH pitching:

.277 / .347 / .520 / .867

Did something mysterious and magical happen in 2006 that caused our Hypothetical Player to become an infiniately easier out for LH pitching? Or is this a statistical anomoly? I dunno, I honestly don't. But my gut says that it's probably a bit unwise to put too much emphasis on 160 plate appearances from a guy who's stepped into the batter's box nearly 10,000 times in his career (3,000 versus lefties). Even if they are the most recent 160.

That's why I'm sorta finding myself pro-Junior here (well, "pro-J. Smith"): you can look at his career numbers, look at his last six years numbers, and the fall-off is noticeable but not catastrophic (other than the fact that he's averaging about half-a-season since 2001). In his most recent two years, the numbers are even CLOSER to his career averages. It's hard for me to look at a single-year RHP/LHP split and consider that damning evidence. Not till it happens again, anyway.

I will, however, grant that a 2007 Reds' Potential Reds' Solution would be a RH OF (Not Currently On the Roster). Not so much because Junior is a Reds' Problem (though even my Best Case Scenario means he's leaving 150 ABs or so for somebody else in RF), but because we have a bothersome blend of deficiencies and uncertainties with our third OF spot.

We are, if nothing, united in our Conine Loathing....

All I know is this dude needs to post more.

Great job!!!!!

flyer85
03-30-2007, 11:09 AM
I fear we are going to be see a lot of Jeff Conine in the OF this season. :help:

Man I hope Wayne pulls the trigger on a trade for a RH hitting outfielder.too bad we traded one away ... for almost nothing. :evil:

BRM
03-30-2007, 11:11 AM
too bad we traded one away ... for almost nothing. :evil:

I heard we got a future closer in that deal. We're good.

jojo
03-30-2007, 11:17 AM
I'm all for platooning Griffey.

KronoRed
03-30-2007, 12:35 PM
I heard we got a future closer in that deal. We're good.

A closer for the bats you mean :)

Handofdeath
03-30-2007, 05:05 PM
Oy. I shouldn't have gotten myself into this. I'm so not a Stat Wanker. I freaking HATE Stat Wankers. But I go and have some free time in a given night, and look what I turn into?

Here's the last set of numbers I'll yank out of my rump. Well, out of baseball-reference.com's rump.... CAREER vs. LH pitching:

.277 / .347 / .520 / .867

Did something mysterious and magical happen in 2006 that caused our Hypothetical Player to become an infiniately easier out for LH pitching? Or is this a statistical anomoly? I dunno, I honestly don't. But my gut says that it's probably a bit unwise to put too much emphasis on 160 plate appearances from a guy who's stepped into the batter's box nearly 10,000 times in his career (3,000 versus lefties). Even if they are the most recent 160.

That's why I'm sorta finding myself pro-Junior here (well, "pro-J. Smith"): you can look at his career numbers, look at his last six years numbers, and the fall-off is noticeable but not catastrophic (other than the fact that he's averaging about half-a-season since 2001). In his most recent two years, the numbers are even CLOSER to his career averages. It's hard for me to look at a single-year RHP/LHP split and consider that damning evidence. Not till it happens again, anyway.

I will, however, grant that a 2007 Reds' Potential Reds' Solution would be a RH OF (Not Currently On the Roster). Not so much because Junior is a Reds' Problem (though even my Best Case Scenario means he's leaving 150 ABs or so for somebody else in RF), but because we have a bothersome blend of deficiencies and uncertainties with our third OF spot.

We are, if nothing, united in our Conine Loathing....

Great post, I especially love the "stat wankers" mention. However Jr's OPS against RH is almost 100 points higher for his career than against LH. And his ability to hit LH IS declining and has been for some time. I will use both AVG and OPS to show how.

Lifetime OPS .866 AVG .277

2006 .671 .204
2005 .891 .278
2004 .682 .198
2003 .936 .250
2002 .594 .217
2001 .763 .254

As for Jeff Conine, he might not be what the Reds need but I respect a player who's going to retire with at least a .280 average, over 200 homers, over 1,000 RBI's, and over 2,000 hits. The man deserves his props, whether he is what the Reds need or not.

pedro
03-30-2007, 05:09 PM
I think the use of the term "Stat Wankers" is offensive myself.

Just like if someone were to call those who don't like to use stats "Ignorant Cavemen".

Neither term does anything for the advancement of intelligent discourse IMO.

Big Klu
03-30-2007, 05:40 PM
Just like if someone were to call those who don't like to use stats "Ignorant Cavemen".

Looks like someone woke up on the wrong side of the rock! :D :laugh: :p:

http://upwithcavemen.com/images/caveman_photo.jpg

pedro
03-30-2007, 05:45 PM
Looks like someone woke up on the wrong side of the rock! :D :laugh: :p:

http://upwithcavemen.com/images/caveman_photo.jpg


If these "know it alls" wouldn't use the term "stat wankers" then maybe I wouldn't be going through this existential meltdown. Oh wait, there's my mom, I'll conference her in.....

Always Red
03-30-2007, 06:18 PM
Oh wait, there's my mom, I'll conference her in.....

:laugh: :laugh: :clap: :clap:

westofyou
03-30-2007, 10:37 PM
Stats are for wankers eh?

Good insight, good stuff.

Ron Madden
03-31-2007, 02:38 AM
Great post, I especially love the "stat wankers" mention.
As for Jeff Conine, he might not be what the Reds need but I respect a player who's going to retire with at least a .280 average, over 200 homers, over 1,000 RBI's, and over 2,000 hits. The man deserves his props, whether he is what the Reds need or not.

There was no point in signing him if the Reds didn't need him to produce.

It makes no sense to pay the man for what he did 10 years ago. :confused: