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cincy09
03-30-2007, 10:14 AM
Guess we get 3 catchers.....oh joy


From John Fay:


This just in . . . Hopper likely to the DL

Outfielder Norris Hopper will not be coming north with the Reds.

"He might be DLed," Jerry Narron said.

Does that mean Chad Moeller gets the last spot for a position player?

"He's got a good chance,"Narron said.

Dewayne Wise will also make the trip to Dayton, so there a chance he could make if the Reds decide they need an outfielder. Remember, Ryan Freel hasn't played since he hit the wall in Clearwater. He is in the lineup today.

The call on who is fifth starter -- Matt Belisle or Kirk Saarloos -- will probably be announced Sunday. Both are pitching today.

BRM
03-30-2007, 10:15 AM
Moeller is all but a lock now. The flexibility on the already thin bench is completely shot.

TheWalls
03-30-2007, 10:15 AM
YUK!:barf:

LincolnparkRed
03-30-2007, 10:22 AM
Moeller is all but a lock now. The flexibility on the already thin bench is completely shot.

You guys act like you are shocked, you remember that Jerry Narron is still the manager right? I for one am shocked that we are not bringing Mark Bellhorn north this year.

WMR
03-30-2007, 10:24 AM
Jeez Moeller sucks wind. What a horrible bench we're carrying into the season!

BRM
03-30-2007, 10:25 AM
You guys act like you are shocked, you remember that Jerry Narron is still the manager right? I for one am shocked that we are not bringing Mark Bellhorn north this year.

Well, if Bellhorn was a catcher or a few years older then I'd guess he would be heading north. :)

I personally am not shocked to see Moeller likely making the squad. I've expected it since the day he signed his contract. Carrying 12 pitchers makes this weak bench even worse. No depth or flexibility.

cincy09
03-30-2007, 10:31 AM
Tent with the same bad news:


looks like three catchers

SARASOTA, Fla. -- In my last post from F-L-A -- Norris Hopper is expected to start the season on the disabled list and stay here in Sarasota. That means it looks like NGITW, Chad Moeller, will be breaking with the team and start the season on the big league roster. There are now 27 players in camp, and two pitchers are gonna be trimmed from the roster by Sunday at 3 p.m.

flyer85
03-30-2007, 10:36 AM
Moeller is all but a lock now. ... was there ever any doubt?

lollipopcurve
03-30-2007, 10:40 AM
wow

I really didn't think this would happen.

Who's Moeller going to catch? Will he even get the same gig Larue had, catching one guy regularly?

coachw513
03-30-2007, 10:44 AM
I tend to disagree with most of you guys (at least those who speak on it) about Moeller...we need a good defensive catcher...Ross scares me a little behind the plate and FBOW Valentin is not viewed as a catcher...he's a pinch-hitter and potentially even a part-time 1B if Conine gets much OF time...

Quite honestly, if Larue had recognized he could've been a valuable reserve catcher instead of sulking and IMHO forcing the Reds hand to deal him (that and the fact he was drawing starter $$) the situation would've been much better...but that's not Moeller or the Reds' fault...

I think Moeller will be just fine in the role demanded of him...

Sea Ray
03-30-2007, 10:48 AM
Moeller is all but a lock now. The flexibility on the already thin bench is completely shot.

I disagree. Keeping Moeller increases the flexibility. With him you can use Valentin, your best PH. W/O Moeller, Valentin cannot play the role of pure PH. Think of Valentin as a 1B and 3rd catcher. Moeller is your typical backup C, all defense, little offense.

BRM
03-30-2007, 10:49 AM
... was there ever any doubt?

No, not really. The Reds now have two offensive black holes on the bench with Moeller and Castro. Conine and Valentin are expected to provide the power off the bench. They aren't going to provide alot but maybe it will be enough. The fact that Conine may have moved up on the OF depth chart and Valentin may become more of a backup 1B/PH actually makes the bench much, much worse. Couple this with the fact that they are carrying 12 pitchers and this bench has no depth and very little versatility.

IamWallaman
03-30-2007, 10:49 AM
:bang: :help: :explode: :runawaycr :rant2: :rant: :thumbdown

Sea Ray
03-30-2007, 10:55 AM
Jeez Moeller sucks wind. What a horrible bench we're carrying into the season!

I wouldn't call it horrible. Hamilton can PH, PR or come in for defense. Valentin led the league in PH homers last year if memory serves me well. Conine can play 1B or OF and give you a clutch AB and provides a much needed RH bat. Moeller is your typical backup C, no hit/works well with pitchers. Castro can play all INF positions.

Remember, Krivsky's school of thinking is pitching, defense and play smart. He's not big into OPS and offensive numbers especially on the bench.

edabbs44
03-30-2007, 10:56 AM
The choice is Wise or Moeller? Jesus...this is gonna be a long year.

Does Hopper really need to be DL'ed, or is this just a way to get all these geezers on the team?

Sea Ray
03-30-2007, 10:58 AM
Too bad Krivsky didn't find a way to keep Cody Ross last year. This bench could use a Brandon Phillips or a Cody Ross find this Spring.

flyer85
03-30-2007, 11:01 AM
I tend to disagree with most of you guys (at least those who speak on it) about Moeller...we need a good defensive catcher...when's is he going to play? Plus on an offensively challenged team going from Ross/Valentin to a black hole like Moeller is big step backwards.

BRM
03-30-2007, 11:04 AM
How about acquiring a decent outfielder that can be used a pinch-hitter? Then Valentin can just be a backup catcher. Valentin's three years splits as a pinch-hitter are flat awful. And Conine's appearances on the outfield grass should be extremely limited.

Sea Ray
03-30-2007, 11:08 AM
How about acquiring a decent outfielder that can be used a pinch-hitter? Then Valentin can just be a backup catcher. Valentin's three years splits as a pinch-hitter are flat awful. And Conine's appearances on the outfield grass should be extremely limited.

It would be my guess that there'll be some talent in the OF that some team will try to sneak through waivers in a roster crunch. My bet is WK and Co will be watching that carefully possibly looking for the next Cody Ross.

BRM
03-30-2007, 11:10 AM
It would be my guess that there'll be some talent in the OF that some team will try to sneak through waivers in a roster crunch. My bet is WK and Co will be watching that carefully possibly looking for the next Cody Ross.

I hope so. Then again, Wayne is likely comfortable with the makeup of the current bench and is content moving forward.

I(heart)Freel
03-30-2007, 11:14 AM
I disagree. Keeping Moeller increases the flexibility. With him you can use Valentin, your best PH. W/O Moeller, Valentin cannot play the role of pure PH. Think of Valentin as a 1B and 3rd catcher. Moeller is your typical backup C, all defense, little offense.


Couldn't agree more.

Valentin proved to be most valuable as your power PH. (Check the stats.) He couldn't do that if he was the only other catcher on squad. Moeller comes in late which covers Ross glaring weakness.

I like.

Would be nice to have a backup OF with Freel already banged up, but this also lets us know right quick which Hamilton we'll see in regular season: the stud phenom of early March or the falling to earth at plate but still a great defensive backup of recent weeks.

Go Reds. Go Krogering.

flyer85
03-30-2007, 11:19 AM
Can anyone actually point out the most terrible of terrible events happened? That is the backup catcher was used as a PH and the starter got hurt and had to leave the game.

It's worrying and planning for an event that almost never occurs. Using the backup catcher as a PH should not be an issue. It's one of those "baseball truisms" that is based on superstition more than anything else.

Strikes Out Looking
03-30-2007, 11:20 AM
This isn't really about Moeller or Hopper. It's about the fact that the Reds minor league system hasn't produced a decent catcher since, well, since Jason Larue--almost 10 years ago.

I'm not sold on Ross. He drops a lot of throws to the plate, and we don't know if his power last year was a one year thing or a trend. Ross, Valentin and Moeller are all stop gaps until the Reds can develop some decent catchers.

BRM
03-30-2007, 11:21 AM
Can anyone actually point out the most terrible of terrible events happened? That is the backup catcher was used as a PH and the starter got hurt and had to leave the game.

It's worrying and planning for an event that almost never occurs. Using the backup catcher as a PH should not be an issue. It's one of those "baseball truisms" that is based on superstition more than anything else.

It's not an issue for nearly every other team in MLB. There is absolutely no reason why Valentin can't remain as the sole backup catcher and still be the primary pinch-hitter. Carrying a guy like Moeller is carrying dead weight just for the heck of it.

flyer85
03-30-2007, 11:22 AM
Carrying a guy like Moeller is carrying dead weight just for the heck of it.someone has to make Castro look good.

BRM
03-30-2007, 11:24 AM
someone has to make Castro look good.

Well, Castro is a must have with this bench. He's the only backup infielder with Freel starting in CF. I can at least see a reason for keeping him. I see no reason whatsoever for carrying Moeller. Oh well, I'm sure he's nothing more than the 25th man and he's unlikely to get many starts, right?

Redsland
03-30-2007, 11:24 AM
Valentin led the league in PH homers last year if memory serves me well.

Valentin proved to be most valuable as your power PH. (Check the stats.)
He's had four. In three years. Along with zero doubles and zero triples. In 83 AB.

His line is .193/.264/.337/.601

(Man, it seems like I'm having to post this a lot.)

BRM
03-30-2007, 11:25 AM
He's had four. In three years. Along with zero doubles and zero triples. In 83 AB.

His line is .193/.264/.337/.601

(Man, it seems like I'm having to post this a lot.)

I've posted it a lot as well. Doesn't seem to matter as quite a few folks seem to think he's a stud pinch-hitter. Perception is a funny thing.

reds44
03-30-2007, 11:36 AM
Chad Moeller sucks, and that's basically all there is too it. At least Norris won the batting title in AAA last year, and hit .350 in a small sample size of major league time.

We need a trade.

Danny Serafini
03-30-2007, 11:46 AM
Anyone know what the average line is for a PH over the past few years?

texasdave
03-30-2007, 11:48 AM
I would try this solution to the Reds' bench woes. Put Freel back in his supersub role. Start him three times a week (once for Jr., once for Hamilton, and once for either Dunn, Encarnacion or Phillips).

One day off a week would probably be good for Junior. And one day off every three weeks seems about right for Dunn, Encarnacion and Phillips.

This would allow Freel to start in approximately half the Reds' games - which is good. In the games in which Freel doesn't start the Reds would have a decent bat available to pinch-hit/double switch with a number of different positions. In the games in which Freel starts you would have, for the most part, a quality hitter (whoever Freel is subbing for) available to pinch hit.

This would upgrade the bench considerably IMO.

IamWallaman
03-30-2007, 11:51 AM
Anyone know what the average line is for a PH over the past few years?

2005: .228/.306/.336

That's all I could find right away.

texasdave
03-30-2007, 11:51 AM
Anyone know what the average line is for a PH over the past few years?

According to retrosheet.org here are the major league PHing numbers for the last five years:


Quote:
2002 - .305/.342/.647 (obp/slg/ops)
2003 - .306/.344/.650
2004 - .312/.359/.671
2005 - .311/.338/.649
2006 - .302/.357/.659

CaiGuy
03-30-2007, 11:59 AM
The biggest problem isn't even Moeller.

The fact that he is now the backup Catcher makes Valentin the backup 1st baseman, which he isn't good at, and the PH, which he isn't good at. This makes Conine the 5th OF, and we all know how good he is in the outfield.

BRM
03-30-2007, 12:03 PM
According to retrosheet.org here are the major league PHing numbers for the last five years:


Quote:
2002 - .305/.342/.647 (obp/slg/ops)
2003 - .306/.344/.650
2004 - .312/.359/.671
2005 - .311/.338/.649
2006 - .302/.357/.659

If those are accurate, they put Valentin well below average in OBP and slightly below average in SLG. He's a pretty decent hitter...for a catcher.

Sea Ray
03-30-2007, 12:12 PM
Valentin was picked up off the scrap heap by the Reds and admittedly his career numbers are not glorious, but I think he did a good job last year as a PH and until Josh Hamilton proves himself, Javier is the #1 choice for a LH PH on this bench. Do you want that choice to be your last catcher?

If you disagree with me that Valentin did well as a PH last year then your gripe is with carrying him, not Moeller. If you don't like Valentin as a PH then why is he here?

Ltlabner
03-30-2007, 12:14 PM
According to retrosheet.org here are the major league PHing numbers for the last five years:


Quote:
2002 - .305/.342/.647 (obp/slg/ops)
2003 - .306/.344/.650
2004 - .312/.359/.671
2005 - .311/.338/.649
2006 - .302/.357/.659

I quickly read those lines in the tradional format of AVG/OBP/SLG and thought "wow, those pinch hit guys are studs" :laugh:

BRM
03-30-2007, 12:16 PM
Valentin was picked up off the scrap heap by the Reds and admittedly his career numbers are not glorious, but I think he did a good job last year as a PH and until Josh Hamilton proves himself, Javier is the #1 choice for a LH PH on this bench. Do you want that choice to be your last catcher?


Sure, why not? How often has the starter gotten injured in a game after the backup catcher was used as a pinch-hitter? I can't imagine it's a frequent occurence. It looks like Moeller is being kept to prevent a situation that almost never happens in the first place.

Ltlabner
03-30-2007, 12:18 PM
It looks like Moeller is being kept to prevent a situation that almost never happens in the first place.

No kidding. When did having 3 catchers become some manditory thing? For the life of me I can't ever remember a starting catcher getting knocked out and the backup be used-up/indesposed. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, of course, but suddenly it's as if this happens every month or so.

Even if it did happen, it's going to be late in the game so you'd have to make do for a few innings at most. Then, with the magic of air travel, you could have your AAA catcher to wherever the team is playing the next day in most cases. And even then if they couldn't the most you'd have to go is 1 game with a make do situation. If the Astros can live with Brad Ausmus doing exactly nothing behind the plate for seasons at a time, we could live with stand in for 1 game till our AAA guy made his way to whatever city the team was in.

All in all, this "better have three catchers" is a bunch of hooey IMO.

deltachi8
03-30-2007, 12:28 PM
No kidding. When did having 3 catchers become some manditory thing? For the life of me I can't ever remember a starting catcher getting knocked out and the backup be used-up/indesposed. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, of course, but suddenly it's as if this happens every month or so.

Even if it did happen, it's going to be late in the game so you'd have to make do for a few innings at most. Then, with the magic of air travel, you could have your AAA catcher to wherever the team is playing the next day in most cases.

Ya but what if the Reds are playing a game that was moved by MLB to Fiji while Louisville's team bus gets lost in the Mountains of West Virginia on a road trip...how could they get Moeller to the next day's game on time?

I think the Reds need to be prepared for such an a happening...its not that big of a stretch, is it?

pedro
03-30-2007, 12:30 PM
Most the time your backup catcher is not you primary PH and I prefer it that way.

BRM
03-30-2007, 12:31 PM
No kidding. When did having 3 catchers become some manditory thing? For the life of me I can't ever remember a starting catcher getting knocked out and the backup be used-up/indesposed. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, of course, but suddenly it's as if this happens every month or so.

Even if it did happen, it's going to be late in the game so you'd have to make do for a few innings at most. Then, with the magic of air travel, you could have your AAA catcher to wherever the team is playing the next day in most cases. And even then if they couldn't the most you'd have to go is 1 game with a make do situation. If the Astros can live with Brad Ausmus doing exactly nothing behind the plate for seasons at a time, we could live with stand in for 1 game till our AAA guy made his way to whatever city the team was in.

All in all, this "better have three catchers" is a bunch of hooey IMO.

Exactly. Worse case is Freel has to catch a couple of innings then you recall someone for the next day's game. It is indeed "a bunch of hooey".

TeamBoone
03-30-2007, 12:32 PM
Ok, I didn't read every post, but the initial blurb did not say why Hopper might be DL'd. Does anyone know?

BRM
03-30-2007, 12:32 PM
Most the time your backup catcher is not you primary PH and I prefer it that way.

I don't think the Reds have a primary pinch-hitter anyway. None of the bench guys are big sticks so it should boil down to matchups.

reds44
03-30-2007, 12:32 PM
The worst thing is, what if Hamilton doesn't hit this year? I personally think we need to be patient with him, but he's going to be forced into a big role.

What if Hamilton struggles like I expect him to. You know it's only a matter of time before Griffey is day to day for a month, then goes on the DL, and Freel runs himself into a wall.

The OF could get real ugly, real fast.

reds44
03-30-2007, 12:33 PM
Ok, I didn't read every post, but the initial blurb did not say why Hopper might be DL'd. Does anyone know?
He hasn't playeyd in a spring training game in awhile, I'm not exactly sure what his injury was though.

Ltlabner
03-30-2007, 12:35 PM
Ya but what if the Reds are playing a game that was moved by MLB to Fiji while Louisville's team bus gets lost in the Mountains of West Virginia on a road trip...how could they get Moeller to the next day's game on time?

:laugh:

Back in the 90's there was a trend of concerts held in some semi-artic area. If MLB were to follow the trend and scheulde a few "glacier games" we could really be in trouble then!

BRM
03-30-2007, 12:35 PM
Rotoworld reported a heel injury back on the 21st. I don't know if this is the injury landing him on the DL though.



Norris Hopper is expected to miss at least five to seven days after injuring his heel.

Ltlabner
03-30-2007, 12:35 PM
He hasn't playeyd in a spring training game in awhile, I'm not exactly sure what his injury was though.

Something to do with his heal wasn't it?

texasdave
03-30-2007, 12:51 PM
His heel won't heal. Ba-da-bing.

Redsland
03-30-2007, 01:04 PM
Javier is the #1 choice for a LH PH on this bench. Do you want that choice to be your last catcher?
Yep, our last catcher. Except for Hatteberg. And Narron's emergency catcher, Freel. And Boone's emergency catcher, Castro.

If you don't like Valentin as a PH then why is he here?
He's welcome to catch twice a week and pinch hit if he must, but to act like he's Jacob Cruz just because the team wants you to believe he is strikes me as crazy.

Caseyfan21
03-30-2007, 01:09 PM
Look at it this way...How many times will Valentin be used and then Ross would be injured? I'm guessing no more than 2 times during the year up to September and that's a giant stretch. Furthermore, what are the odds those games are even close games? I'd say one out of 2 at the most. Therefore we might (HUGE might) be giving away one possible victory during the season by having to use Freel or Castro as an emergency catcher. And even using them in a close game sure wouldn't be giving it away.

Would carrying an extra OF'er on the bench win us more than one game during the year? I sure would like to think so whether it's through a pinch hit, occasional start, or even defense.

Ditch Moeller and give me anyone else that's warm, breathing, and not a light hitting catcher.

LoganBuck
03-30-2007, 01:21 PM
How long is Hopper supposed to be out?

bucksfan2
03-30-2007, 01:44 PM
If Ross gets hurt after Valentine is used I would hope it would be late in a game. You would expect that a manager (granted Narron is ours) wouldn't use his best ph in the early innings. So lets assume that Valentine PH in the 7th and Ross gets hurt in the 8th. You put hatty back there. If hes not available you throw Freel or Castro, tell the pitcher to throw fastballs and hope to catch the ball. Im guessing that the odds of this happening are 1/162. If you have to lose that one game because of this how many games are you saving by having a decent bat of the bench?

757690
03-30-2007, 02:00 PM
"The Reds now have two offensive black holes on the bench with Moeller and Castro."

Castro is not an offensive balck hole. He has some pop, just ask Marty. :)

BRM
03-30-2007, 02:01 PM
Castro is not an offensive balck hole. He has some pop, just ask Marty. :)

That .340 career slugging just screams pop.

MartyFan
03-30-2007, 02:07 PM
Maybe carrying three catchers is a morph of the game?

When did SP start throwing only 6 innings?
When did long RP become a real spot on a team?
When did teams start to use closers?
Why does the AL use a DH?
When did teams start to expect speed AND POWER out of a CF?

Just saying...maybe this is a new morph of how to stretch a bench or a need of the game...we'll see.