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View Full Version : what does two rule 5 guys mean



aodaniel
04-02-2007, 06:20 AM
Now that the Reds are carrying not one, but two, Rule 5 draft picks on their roster, what does that mean? Does Krivsky see things in guys that no one else does? Are the reds hurting for good players so much that 2 Rule 5 guys make the opening day roster? Discuss.

MrCinatit
04-02-2007, 06:41 AM
There was a rather good chance from the start Hamilton was going to be a steal - almost immediately, Tampa Bay began lamenting the fact they gave him away. I have a feeling the Cubs might end up in that same boat. I am sure everyone and his brother were looking for this guy.
So far, Burton is a gamble which has worked - and, again, it was a "little to lose" gamble. To be honest, I am not sure how closely he was watched.
I believe Hamilton has been the bigger difference maker. With the loss of Denorfia, he becomes a lot more important.
On the other hand, if Burton was not around, there were plenty of other guys who probably could have stepped into his shoes - Hermanson, Santos, Livngston, et al.
Yeah, this is highly unusual. And I doubt a team like Detroit or New York would do something like this (though I could be horribly wrong). But, if this work, then it works.

puca
04-02-2007, 07:06 AM
Normally I would say severe lack of talent in the upper levels of the farm system and a long rebuilding process.

But I'm a Reds fan, so I will say ... great scouting and luck?

aodaniel
04-02-2007, 07:33 AM
I know there was no question about picking Hamilton as far as talent goes. But Krivsky still had to wonder about his character and drug related issues. But for $50K, I guess there's no reason not to take a chance on some guys who might be able to contribute.

MaineRed
04-02-2007, 07:46 AM
The Reds took the chance because of Narron and past relationships with Hamilton. It is doubtful Hamilton is a Twin today if Kriv still worked for them.

I don't believe Krivsky saw anything in Josh that others missed. We have Josh because of Jerry Narron.

Caveman Techie
04-02-2007, 08:13 AM
Actually Krivsky didn't know about the relationship with Narron until he was almost ready to pull the trigger. He told Narron they were thinking of acquiring Hamilton and asked him what he thought, the day before the rule V draft. So the relationship with Narron I'm sure helped a little but Krivsky was already after Hamilton when he found out about it.

IamWallaman
04-02-2007, 08:21 AM
Kriv's scouts really pushed him to snag Hamilton. Good thing, huh? ;)

Burton was probably another low-risk, high-reward guys like Phillips last year: A lot of talent, still putting it together and no where to put him

Dunner44
04-02-2007, 08:36 AM
Yeah, this is highly unusual. And I doubt a team like Detroit or New York would do something like this (though I could be horribly wrong). But, if this work, then it works.

Rule V guys work out well some times. You mention Detroit not doing something like this, but they had Chris Shelton as a Rule V guy in 2004 when they were still a struggling team. The Twins got Santana out of the Rule V, so obviously thats something to hope for. The Reds are a team that needs to take a few chances and have them pan out to be competitive. BP worked. DRoss worked. Arroyo worked. Others did not. These two will be interesting, and if Spring is even a slight indicator, these two may have something to contribute. I like that our scouting dept. is digging up stuff like this. Kriv brought a scout's mentality, and sometimes it pays off.

paulrichjr
04-02-2007, 09:19 AM
Rule V guys work out well some times. You mention Detroit not doing something like this, but they had Chris Shelton as a Rule V guy in 2004 when they were still a struggling team. The Twins got Santana out of the Rule V, so obviously thats something to hope for. The Reds are a team that needs to take a few chances and have them pan out to be competitive. BP worked. DRoss worked. Arroyo worked. Others did not. These two will be interesting, and if Spring is even a slight indicator, these two may have something to contribute. I like that our scouting dept. is digging up stuff like this. Kriv brought a scout's mentality, and sometimes it pays off.

I agree with this. I have never seen a GM that uses scouting so well to pick up guys for free. Maybe he needs a book called "Scouting Ball" or something. If "The Trade" had been made for someone that could have actually helped the Reds he would have been close to a miracle worker in my eyes. As it is I have to ask "What in the world was he thinking trading..." Nevermind. I think this has its own thread somewhere.

MississippiRed
04-02-2007, 09:26 AM
Normally I would say severe lack of talent in the upper levels of the farm system and a long rebuilding process.

But I'm a Reds fan, so I will say ... great scouting and luck?

I'm sure it's the first, but am hopeful that it is the second as well.

TOBTTReds
04-02-2007, 09:31 AM
This means less flexibility for the team. If these guys struggle then some big decisions need to be made.

Hooligan
04-02-2007, 09:47 AM
I think more than anything it shows that Oakland has alot of arms in their system. As far as Hamilton goes...I don't think anyone else believed he could get past his demons. These two picks could be a huge part of the Reds story this year.

hebroncougar
04-02-2007, 10:28 AM
Actually Krivsky didn't know about the relationship with Narron until he was almost ready to pull the trigger. He told Narron they were thinking of acquiring Hamilton and asked him what he thought, the day before the rule V draft. So the relationship with Narron I'm sure helped a little but Krivsky was already after Hamilton when he found out about it.

Actually in the Enquirer yesterday, Narron said he had no idea the Reds had acquired or were going to acquire Hamilton until the deal was made. I thought what you said was right as well, I was surprised to read it yesterday.

Nugget
04-02-2007, 08:16 PM
I think it also shows that there are Rule V guys and Rule V guys. Both Hamilton and Burton showed in ST that they had more than talent. They could play in the major leagues and help the REDS today. Its a case of great scouting by the REDS and I'd also include JC in the mix too. These are guys who other clubs had decided weren't in the top 40 of their respective clubs and the REDS decided they were wrong. It's not exactly a dearth of talent in the REDS system but don't forget that there are 9 players on the DL to begin the season and the AAA team has some pretty good talent too. Burton being a Rule V probably had the advantage over guys like Shack, Salmon et al who have options so you could probably group them all as being at the same talent level.

Dunner44
04-02-2007, 08:20 PM
are we calling Coutlangus JC now? His last name is so fun to write, and even more fun to say....

knuckler
04-02-2007, 08:50 PM
I think it is nothing but good when a GM uses ALL the avenues to find talent -- Rule V, waiver claims (Livingston), trades, free agency and the amateur draft -- to load the system. If they don't pan out, throw 'em back and keep fishing. It's the kind of thing smaller markets particularly need to do since they can't lean on free agency and deadline-deal trades as hard as the Yankees and Red Sox can.

AtomicDumpling
04-02-2007, 08:52 PM
I think the acquisition of Burton goes to show that quality middle relievers can be gotten for free if you know where to look -- rather than panicking and giving up 3 former 1st round picks that are solid, improving, young players on your team. Getting Burton is precisely the type of risk-free move that low-budget teams like the Reds need to strive for.

The signing of Josh Hamilton is very exciting due to his potential. Don't forget the potential is also there to witness a catastrophic meltdown that would make Chris Henry look like a choirboy. Why do we look so fondly at Hamilton (a totally raw prospect with a history of major drug use) and so sourly at Henry (a proven, high-quality professional receiver with a history of minor misdemeanor infractions)? I sincerely hope it works out for both the Reds and Hamilton, but it is far, far too early to consider him a great Krivsky success story.

HumnHilghtFreel
04-02-2007, 08:54 PM
Why do we look so fondly at Hamilton (a totally raw prospect with a history of major drug use) and so sourly at Henry (a proven, high-quality professional receiver with a history of minor misdemeanor infractions)?

Probably because the former seems to be striving for the righteous path, while the latter is still yet to go an entire off-season without finding his way into trouble.

gonelong
04-02-2007, 08:58 PM
The signing of Josh Hamilton is very exciting due to his potential. Don't forget the potential is also there to witness a catastrophic meltdown that would make Chris Henry look like a choirboy. Why do we look so fondly at Hamilton (a totally raw prospect with a history of major drug use) and so sourly at Henry (a proven, high-quality professional receiver with a history of minor misdemeanor infractions)? I sincerely hope it works out for both the Reds and Hamilton, but it is far, far too early to consider him a great Krivsky success story.

Because, presumably, Hamilton is taking extreme measures to move past his issues. Because Hamilton's issues happened somewhere else and to someone else, not us. We are probably going to get either nothing or upside from Hamilton.

Conversely, Henry has made no attempt to right his wrongs and no serious attempt to move past his issues. Because Henry's issues happened here and to us. We are probably going to get either nothing or the downside from Hamilton. If he tries to clean up his act a bit, the next team that gets him will likely welcome him with open arms.

GL

Team Clark
04-02-2007, 09:16 PM
This means less flexibility for the team. If these guys struggle then some big decisions need to be made.

Or more time for those players who are really close to get ready. Krivsky has done an excellent job getting players who have options. O'Brien missed that seminar. The scouting dept has been re-tooled and it is showing. Krivsky trusts his people. Not every move will work out but he is taking calculated risks and they seem to work out for the most part. More important, they are cost effective.

Henry Clay
04-02-2007, 10:29 PM
The 2 Rule V pickups are just another indication of Krivsky's intent to supplement the Reds' shallow talent pool by grabbing players with potential & ML promise from waiver wires, Rule V and whatever sources he can. This could be a long-term Krivsky attribute, one that could become tiresome if the Reds ever develop a deep talent pool and a well-stocked, winning roster. In the short-term, with the Reds' system bereft of immediate talent, I love that the guy is looking for the Hamiltons, Coutangalouses (try saying that 3 times fast), and Burtons of the baseball world to supplement the roster. Kind of like Krivsky's reclamation of the once-bright, but fading stars of Brandon Phillips and David Ross last year, these guys could turn out to be longer term solutions. Of course, they could fizzle out like Michael Gosling or get hurt like Majewski, but I like the trend. It shows a GM who is working within the parameters of his budget, the club's inability to absorb costly high risk moves (see Eric Milton), and a club that looks like a smile with a series of gaps between otherwise shiny teeth. I also like that Krivsky is taking chances on these younger players while still doing the Bowden-like thing of inviting former veterans to camp to see if they can reclaim their old skills. The difference so far: The veteran players are turned away if they don't measure up to the younger talent on hand. As nervous as the Spring Training invites of Lightenberg, Hermanson, and, last year, Tuffy Rhodes, made Redzone posters, each of those players -- after being given a fair chance -- did not take away a roster spot from a younger player. Although I don't understand all of the roster moves (see Chad Moeller), I am encouraged by the trend.

Falls City Beer
04-02-2007, 10:52 PM
I'm a Rule V acquisition, and I've worked out splendidly.

Highlifeman21
04-02-2007, 11:03 PM
I'm a Rule V acquisition, and I've worked out splendidly.

You also know how the play the game the right way, offer that veteran presence, and have oodles of scrapiness. It also goes without saying that you do all the little things right.

One of the better Rule V pick ups in team history.

George Anderson
04-03-2007, 12:37 AM
Or more time for those players who are really close to get ready. Krivsky has done an excellent job getting players who have options. O'Brien missed that seminar. The scouting dept has been re-tooled and it is showing. Krivsky trusts his people. Not every move will work out but he is taking calculated risks and they seem to work out for the most part. More important, they are cost effective.


I think if Hamilton continues to look like a steal, it will help WK silence all his critics over the Kearns/Lopez trade.

Well somewhat anyway. :)

The Kearns/Lopez trade hasnt been talked about much and WK hasnt been bashed much lately since Hamilton has emerged.

AtomicDumpling
04-03-2007, 12:51 AM
I think the Kearns/Lopez trade will haunt Krivsky for the rest of his career. Debacles like that never go away.

Even though I think that trade was extremely stupid, I still think Krivsky is a good general manager. Most of the moves he has made have either been effective or at least didn't hurt us.

Krivsky is infinitely better than Dan O'Brien was. Jim Bowden made a few good moves but ultimately proved he was not very good. That is why his rape of Krivsky is so embarrassing!

sonny
04-03-2007, 12:53 AM
I think if Hamilton continues to look like a steal, it will help WK silence all his critics over the Kearns/Lopez trade.

Well somewhat anyway. :)

The Kearns/Lopez trade hasnt been talked about much and WK hasnt been bashed much lately since Hamilton has emerged.

...I'm not sure the Reds organization is making moves to quell the RZ talk about the trade.

Moreover, if Bray and Maj work out, Kriv will seem to be an Ultra-genius