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TOBTTReds
04-02-2007, 05:41 PM
I'm worried about him. He didn't look like he had a clue today. I just thought last year it looked like he got tired and pitchers started to figure him out a little. Today it seemed like he will struggle vs. bad pitchers. I guess we'll see more against Lilly, a LH, on Wed.

icehole3
04-02-2007, 06:00 PM
and Dunn's going to hit 300 homers

Bobcat J
04-02-2007, 06:15 PM
He did look really bad on his two strikeouts.

Bobcat J
04-02-2007, 06:17 PM
and Dunn's going to hit 300 homers

Actually, i think he is going to hit 324. ;)

Tom Servo
04-02-2007, 06:19 PM
Definatly looked bad today, but one 3-4 game with two homeruns and everyone will be talking him up again. It's too early to say if he's lost it or not, even if he has.

roby
04-02-2007, 06:20 PM
He made a nice play throwing a runner out at second.

edabbs44
04-02-2007, 06:22 PM
Definatly looked bad today, but one 3-4 game with two homeruns and everyone will be talking him up again. It's too early to say if he's lost it or not, even if he has.

IMO, he's been extremely overrated. He .203 after the ASB. I'm expecting a not so productive season and a eventual platoon with Javy...with Ross getting the short end.

M2
04-02-2007, 06:26 PM
He made a nice play throwing a runner out at second.

I don't know what kind of jump Lee had on that play, but the pitch was as close to being a pitch out without being a pitch out as you can get. It was high and outside and it allowed Ross to catch the ball out of the crouch and get right into his throwing motion. He also had a clear view of the runner. I would expect most every catcher to get the out on that pitch.

TexRed
04-02-2007, 06:31 PM
Just the first game folks, lot of AB's to come down the road. Only 161 games to go!

M2
04-02-2007, 06:34 PM
lot of AB's to come down the road.

That's the worry.

WMR
04-02-2007, 06:36 PM
He just looked totally lost... that's the worry. And his post-ASB numbers from last year aren't confidence inspiring.

Bobcat J
04-02-2007, 06:37 PM
I don't know what kind of jump Lee had on that play, but the pitch was as close to being a pitch out without being a pitch out as you can get. It was high and outside and it allowed Ross to catch the ball out of the crouch and get right into his throwing motion. He also had a clear view of the runner. I would expect most every catcher to get the out on that pitch.

I thought Lee got a pretty good jump, and at the time I expected him to be safe. I was surprised that Ross got him. Your explaination of the virtual pitchout clears that up.

Razor Shines
04-02-2007, 07:16 PM
I don't know what kind of jump Lee had on that play, but the pitch was as close to being a pitch out without being a pitch out as you can get. It was high and outside and it allowed Ross to catch the ball out of the crouch and get right into his throwing motion. He also had a clear view of the runner. I would expect most every catcher to get the out on that pitch.

I've always thought that Ross actually gets rid of the ball quickly and throws well. It's the only part of his defense that I think is good. It's odd I think he's above average in throwing out runners but far below average in blocking balls. That WP on Harang should have been a PB, actually he should have turned his glove over and stopped it easily, it looked very lazy.

TOBTTReds
04-02-2007, 07:31 PM
Just the first game folks, lot of AB's to come down the road. Only 161 games to go!

It honestly has nothing to do with him going 0-4. It was more about him not having a clue when up at the plate.

paintmered
04-02-2007, 07:35 PM
I don't know what kind of jump Lee had on that play, but the pitch was as close to being a pitch out without being a pitch out as you can get. It was high and outside and it allowed Ross to catch the ball out of the crouch and get right into his throwing motion. He also had a clear view of the runner. I would expect most every catcher to get the out on that pitch.

From my vantage-point, Lee got a good jump off first.

Falls City Beer
04-02-2007, 07:48 PM
Lee's not the fastest dude alive. Big tall guys usually aren't.

vic715
04-02-2007, 07:49 PM
It honestly has nothing to do with him going 0-4. It was more about him not having a clue when up at the plate.

Don't forget it was Zambrano making him look bad.

edabbs44
04-02-2007, 07:51 PM
Don't forget it was Zambrano making him look bad.

And the whole league made him look bad after the 2006 ASB.

After you go through the league once, it's up to you to make adjustments. He hasn't to this point.

paintmered
04-02-2007, 07:52 PM
Lee's not the fastest dude alive. Big tall guys usually aren't.

No, he's not a gazelle by any stretch of the imagination. But he got an early break towards second.

boognish
04-02-2007, 08:26 PM
Take my comments with a grain of salt because I firmly stand by the opinion that LaRue should have been retained (especially if the Reds are keeping three catchers anyway), and I don't want to sound like I am summarily dismissing Ross's strong suits.

Ross has good pop in his bat, but his lack of plate coverage and tendency to flail wildly against low breaking balls may be cause for concern, along with his pre- and post- ASB splits (as edabbs mentioned) and his home/road splits. The financial risk is minimal, but I don't think he'll be within 100 points of last season's 932 OPS.

Home: .250/.359/.694 13 HR, 9 2B in 128 PA
Road: .259/.348/.489 8 HR, 6 2B in 160 PA

That's an extra 210 points of isolated power in GABP, but there weren't many PA so maybe we'll get a better picture over an entire season.

pre-ASB: .311/.384/.681
post-ASB: .203/.325/.484

That said, what do we really expect out of the catcher spot? Crushing 15-18 mistake pitches over the wall and drawing a few walks to go along with a .250 BA is ok with me, but that is why I liked LaRue (above-average OBP and power for the position). The risk is not only minimal financially, but I believe Valentin is one of the better back-ups in the NL. The biggest downside in the catching carousel is Moeller's roster spot.

Bobcat J
04-02-2007, 08:35 PM
Lee's not the fastest dude alive. Big tall guys usually aren't.

True, but he's not the slowest either. He did steal 21 bases in 2003. And 15 two years ago.

Stats Inc. says that he "has good speed on the bases." http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/playerScouting?categoryId=85927

And, this website says Lee "has surprising speed for a first baseman." http://www2.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/players/Derrek_Lee/

Ltlabner
04-02-2007, 08:47 PM
I'm not ready to panic but Ross did look horrable at the plate today. Very, very bad.

sonny
04-03-2007, 06:21 AM
I'm not ready to panic but Ross did look horrable at the plate today. Very, very bad.

and horrible:evil:

Ltlabner
04-03-2007, 06:33 AM
and horrible:evil:

Why don't you be a spellchecker for all my posts?

That might keep you busy for a while.

bucksfan2
04-03-2007, 08:30 AM
On the stolen base it looked like Lee went because Harang did not pay attention to him.

Sure Ross didn't look good at the plate but how many people look bad when Zambrano is pitching? Let the guy get more ab's before you start jumping all over him. Could last years decline be because he isn't used to playing as many games as he did last year?

As for wanting LaRue back here, come on. The guy can't even win the starting job in KC.

Redsland
04-03-2007, 11:32 AM
Apparently the book on David Ross is to give him a steady diet of fastballs over the plate that he can't catch up to.

He seemed to generally lay off the stuff out of the zone, with the notable exception of that excuse-me swing at the outside curve that ended his third AB.

Joseph
04-03-2007, 11:47 AM
It's tough for me to have any credibility in critiquing Ross considering my man love for LaRue's ability as a baseball player, but Ross didn't look good in the spring be it against Major Leaguers, or guys praying to make the squads of the opponents. Defense is NOT his forte, and if he loses his bat, then I'd frankly rather see Moeller and Valentin in a platoon. I'd rather see Perez up here [assuming we still have him] because at least you get defense out of that, but if a guy brings relatively little/next to nothing, then why are you playing him?

coachw513
04-03-2007, 12:21 PM
It honestly has nothing to do with him going 0-4. It was more about him not having a clue when up at the plate.

I'm not trying to be adversarial, but he doesn't "have a clue" why???...because an all-star pitcher kept him off-balance the 1st day of the season???...I'm not saying that Ross will be the 1st half of '06 Ross, but I don't think yesterday is reason enough (nor spring training, i.e. Harang) to make such an indictment...

Plus even in LaRue's good years he got off to terrible starts so we'd all be yelling about how badly he looked too :D

Eric_Davis
04-03-2007, 04:01 PM
Just the first game folks, lot of AB's to come down the road. Only 161 games to go!

No doubt. Do not make judgements about anything one game into a 162-game season.

If Ross is not playing poorly by June 1st, then you can be concerned.

redsrule2500
04-03-2007, 04:05 PM
Ross did look terrible, but I think he will be fine. He did amazing last year, and I think he can repeat.

edabbs44
04-03-2007, 04:18 PM
No doubt. Do not make judgements about anything one game into a 162-game season.

If Ross is not playing poorly by June 1st, then you can be concerned.

Of course, but sometimes June 1st sneaks up on you and by then it could be very late...

registerthis
04-03-2007, 04:21 PM
Why don't you be a spellchecker for all my posts?

That might keep you busy for a while.

Meow!

Strikes Out Looking
04-03-2007, 04:28 PM
I've said this before, but I'm quite worried about the Reds farm system's catching in general. They haven't produced anyone since LaRue--almost a decade ago. If Ross, whom I have questions about goes down with an injury, the Reds catching will be just about the worst in the majors.

Hopefully, they'll restock the farm system with some quality catchers that can have a lasting impact in the next few years.

DannyB
04-03-2007, 04:33 PM
Don't forget it was Zambrano making him look bad.

I only got to see his last AB.It wasn't Zambrano making him look bad.

TexRed
04-03-2007, 05:56 PM
Please read the scoring definition of a passed ball (PB). A ball that can be caught with normal effort. If the ball is in the dirt, by definition, it requires more than normal effort, ergo, a wild pitch.

M2
04-03-2007, 06:40 PM
Please read the scoring definition of a passed ball (PB). A ball that can be caught with normal effort. If the ball is in the dirt, by definition, it requires more than normal effort, ergo, a wild pitch.

We all know the rule, but I think it's fair to say that most people expect major league catchers to snare balls near them in the dirt as part of the normal course of business. The slider's been around for a few generations now.

Razor Shines
04-03-2007, 06:59 PM
Please read the scoring definition of a passed ball (PB). A ball that can be caught with normal effort. If the ball is in the dirt, by definition, it requires more than normal effort, ergo, a wild pitch.

I consider turning your glove over, rather than looking away and stabbing backhanded at it, to be within normal effort. Honestly I think he should have caught it before it hit the dirt. It was a flat out lazy attempt.

Falls City Beer
04-03-2007, 07:00 PM
I consider turning your glove over, rather than looking away and stabbing backhanded at it, to be within normal effort. Honestly I think he should have caught it before it hit the dirt. It was a flat out lazy attempt.

Ross is just a sloppy as hell catcher.

Newman4
04-03-2007, 07:04 PM
I think his swing looks extremely long. He stands up very straight and doesn't get his hands out in front of him (when his front foot hits the ground his hands are too far back) and kinda "drags" the bat through the zone. His left hand needs to be the dominant hand and it looks like the right hand almost pushed the bat through. Thus he can't catch up to a hard fastball (Zambrano threw him three around 95 he swung right through) and "steps in the bucket" against the breaking ball.

My .02 anyways

Prf15
04-05-2007, 07:28 AM
7 AB's, 0 hits, 4 Strikeouts......

Time to let Javy show if he can be this teams Catcher.

Always Red
04-05-2007, 08:10 AM
Ross is just a sloppy as hell catcher.

I totally agree. He had a major brain cramp last night on the pop-up bunt. He has a decent arm, but his decision making is very tentative, and we all saw last year how well he blocks the plate.:(

And he looked bad at the plate again, hitting against a soft-tossing lefty, who is someone he should hit, and hit hard.

Ross was a good pick up last year, when LaRue was hurt and the Reds needed a catcher. He had a career first half, and tailed off badly after that. I'm worried about Ross, before June 1 even, because Ross has never done the job as a regular before, his track record is as a back-up, one who is an average defensive catcher at best, hits .230 lifetime, with some pop in his bat.

That occasional pop alone is not enough to be an everyday catcher, in my book.

But of the three catchers on the active roster right now, I think he is the best option to start. Which makes me wonder why we have three catchers???

Cant Touch This
04-05-2007, 08:23 AM
He hit one last night that would have been gone just about any other day of the year. In fact, the Reds hit four last night that normally would have left the yard but ended up as long flyouts.

Not everyone comes out of Spring Training on fire. While I have read some fantastic analyses on this thread regarding his swing, his defense, and his decision making, he's played two games. I remember some timely bombs from Ross last year and I certainly don't mind that type of presence in the 7 or 8 hole night after night. I would imagine someone could work on his fundamentals behind the plate, but he's a decent hitter. Just give him more than two games before calling for Loverboy.

Always Red
04-05-2007, 08:36 AM
He hit one last night that would have been gone just about any other day of the year. In fact, the Reds hit four last night that normally would have left the yard but ended up as long flyouts.



at GABP, I don't give credence to "almost home runs." And no one else should, either!

At most other parks, those aren't even warning track shots. The cold served to "normalize" GABP last night.

I'm not giving up on Ross, I'm pointing out why I'm worried about him. He doesn't have a track record as a regular catcher. And I certainly don't think the guys behind him are any better than he- Moeller is AAAA, and I don't understand the love around here for the Latin Love Machine, other than having a great nickname, courtesy of Red Hot Mama. The numbers show Valentin to be a very poor pinch hitter.

Kc61
04-05-2007, 08:44 AM
Ross will be fine.

Newman4
04-05-2007, 08:45 AM
That near miss HR last night was a result of his overly long uppercut swing. I was in the Scout Seats and he should've absolutely killed that pitch.

Cant Touch This
04-05-2007, 09:03 AM
at GABP, I don't give credence to "almost home runs." And no one else should, either!

At most other parks, those aren't even warning track shots. The cold served to "normalize" GABP last night.

I'm not giving up on Ross, I'm pointing out why I'm worried about him. He doesn't have a track record as a regular catcher. And I certainly don't think the guys behind him are any better than he- Moeller is AAAA, and I don't understand the love around here for the Latin Love Machine, other than having a great nickname, courtesy of Red Hot Mama. The numbers show Valentin to be a very poor pinch hitter.

On any "normal" night, I would agree with your assessment of "almost home runs" at GABP. But the ball simply was not carrying last night. He may have gotten under it a bit, but even in other ball parks, that shot along with a couple of others would have been dingers with any help from Mother Nature. The ball might as well have been filled with lead last night.

It was a frustrating game to watch because of it: The Reds absolutely crushed a number of pitches - most ended up in outs (one ended up as a very long single because Dunner thought he hit number 3.) The Cubs, meanwhile, nickeled and dimed their way to 4 runs. Funny game, this national pastime of ours.

El Loverboy is muy bueno off the bench and is a serviceable backup catcher. Ross is never going to be Johnny Bench - maybe not even Dan Bilardello, but he's still our best option despite the fact that 12% of the active ML roster plays behind the dish.

Always Red
04-05-2007, 09:16 AM
On any "normal" night, I would agree with your assessment of "almost home runs" at GABP. But the ball simply was not carrying last night. He may have gotten under it a bit, but even in other ball parks, that shot along with a couple of others would have been dingers with any help from Mother Nature. The ball might as well have been filled with lead last night.

It was a frustrating game to watch because of it: The Reds absolutely crushed a number of pitches - most ended up in outs (one ended up as a very long single because Dunner thought he hit number 3.) The Cubs, meanwhile, nickeled and dimed their way to 4 runs. Funny game, this national pastime of ours.

El Loverboy is muy bueno off the bench and is a serviceable backup catcher. Ross is never going to be Johnny Bench - maybe not even Dan Bilardello, but he's still our best option despite the fact that 12% of the active ML roster plays behind the dish.


I was at the game, and had a totally different feel for it. The Cubs hit a number of hard hit balls right at guys. The Reds struck out a lot, and hit a bunch of pop-ups. 2-3 balls to the warning track- they were not crushed, from my vantage point, never in any danger of going out. Lilly had the Reds off balance the entire evening.

Dunn hit a laser beam off the wall, that rocketed right back to the RF'er, which is why it was only a single, well, that and his admiring of it as well, as you said.

I agree that Dave Ross is the best we have. I'd play him again today and see if he can swing his way out of it. He certainly has some pop; he absolutely crushed some balls last year. It's the rest of his game that I am worried about.

I'd settle for Dave Ross being Joe Nolan.

Cant Touch This
04-05-2007, 09:23 AM
I was at the game, and had a totally different feel for it. The Cubs hit a number of hard hit balls right at guys. The Reds struck out a lot, and hit a bunch of pop-ups. 2-3 balls to the warning track- they were not crushed, from my vantage point, never in any danger of going out. Lilly had the Reds off balance the entire evening.

Dunn hit a laser beam off the wall, that rocketed right back to the RF'er, which is why it was only a single, well, that and his admiring of it as well, as you said.

I agree that Dave Ross is the best we have. I'd play him again today and see if he can swing his way out of it. He certainly has some pop; he absolutely crushed some balls last year. It's the rest of his game that I am worried about.

I'd settle for Dave Ross being Joe Nolan.

I'll concede to your vantage point. Mine was from the warmth of my couch and relied completely on camera angles and the sound of contact. Plus, Thom and Jeff also thought at least the Ross shot and BP's would have been HRs so I was deferring to them.

Both teams struck out a lot. Definitely not a night for hitters. I play in a wooden-bat league in Michigan and have played some night games with temps in the 30s and 40s. The pain of a foul ball off a 75 MPH fastball must feel as soft as a Holiday Inn Express pillow compared to getting a piece off Bobby Howry. And before hitting reply, I realize that last sentence could benefit from rephrasing, but I'm far too lazy.

redsfan4445
04-05-2007, 09:25 AM
the ball Ross hit last night was a smash and the wind held it in the park.. i was at the game and everybody around me was celebrating thinking it was gone and it was like it died at the wall.. so he did swin g good on that last AB.. he screwed up not catching the ball and or picking it up, stepping on home and throwing to 1st.. but 160 more games to go.. it was VERYcold last night and the winds held up 3 flyballs i saw would have been gone in the summer heat.. Ross, Philips and Conine

Always Red
04-05-2007, 09:46 AM
.. but 160 more games to go..

true.

It was cold for both teams, of course. I thought the Reds got beat squarely last night.

It was the coldest I have ever been at a baseball game, I never could warm up- I nearly ran to my car at the end of the 8th inning, and it took me 2 Maker's Marks at home to heat up!

If I had known Burton was pitching the 9th, I'd have hung around just to see him, even if he did walk three in a row. :D

OesterPoster
04-05-2007, 10:05 AM
I'd play him again today and see if he can swing his way out of it.

Probably not likely with the righty Marquis starting and the proverbial day-game-after-night-game philosophy of Narron. Pretty safe bet that Javy is in the lineup today.

Red Leader
04-05-2007, 10:26 AM
I agree that Dave Ross is the best we have. I'd play him again today and see if he can swing his way out of it.

If I were the manager David Ross wouldn't have finished last night's game after that boneheaded play on the bunt pop up with the bases loaded.

Ross should have been all over the frickin' pop up bunt, like lightning. You shoot out from behind the plate like you stole something in that situation. If the ball manages to fall, you pick it up and you tag the plate to force the lead runner and prevent anyone from scoring. THEN you look for somewhere else on the diamond to make a play. Ross didn't really come out from behind the plate in any hurry at all. When the ball dropped, he picked it up and winged it to 2nd. That was probably the worst play he could make in that situation, forgiving that he didn't hustle after the pop up. The runner going to 2nd hadn't even taken 3-4 step off of first base yet. You have plenty of time to get that runner. Force the guy at home, first. A mistake like that at the major league level tells me that Ross' head was not in the game at that moment. And if his head was not in the game with the bases loaded in a close game, then he doesn't deserve to be out there. Since Ross didn't get taken out of last night game (no excuse), he should NOT be in today's lineup. This is a case where Narron HAS to show that he's not going to put up with this kind of play. This is a perfect situation to enforce that. I will be disappointed if Jerry Narron doesn't take advantage of it.

Always Red
04-05-2007, 10:50 AM
If I were the manager David Ross wouldn't have finished last night's game after that boneheaded play on the bunt pop up with the bases loaded.

Ross should have been all over the frickin' pop up bunt, like lightning. You shoot out from behind the plate like you stole something in that situation. If the ball manages to fall, you pick it up and you tag the plate to force the lead runner and prevent anyone from scoring. THEN you look for somewhere else on the diamond to make a play. Ross didn't really come out from behind the plate in any hurry at all. When the ball dropped, he picked it up and winged it to 2nd. That was probably the worst play he could make in that situation, forgiving that he didn't hustle after the pop up. The runner going to 2nd hadn't even taken 3-4 step off of first base yet. You have plenty of time to get that runner. Force the guy at home, first. A mistake like that at the major league level tells me that Ross' head was not in the game at that moment. And if his head was not in the game with the bases loaded in a close game, then he doesn't deserve to be out there. Since Ross didn't get taken out of last night game (no excuse), he should NOT be in today's lineup. This is a case where Narron HAS to show that he's not going to put up with this kind of play. This is a perfect situation to enforce that. I will be disappointed if Jerry Narron doesn't take advantage of it.

true; I agree with all you say. Read further in my post, and I said I wasn't worried about Ross's power hitting, but am very worried about the rest of his game. As OesterPoster said, Valentin probably plays today along with the rest of the B squad- it's Narron's usual MO for a 12:30 game.

LaRue was not my favorite player, but he'd have been all over that one- we saw him do it many times.

A catcher has to be a leader on the field, he has to take charge. I don't know if Ross has the confidence to do that?

Red Leader
04-05-2007, 11:13 AM
true; I agree with all you say. Read further in my post, and I said I wasn't worried about Ross's power hitting, but am very worried about the rest of his game. As OesterPoster said, Valentin probably plays today along with the rest of the B squad- it's Narron's usual MO for a 12:30 game.

LaRue was not my favorite player, but he'd have been all over that one- we saw him do it many times.

A catcher has to be a leader on the field, he has to take charge. I don't know if Ross has the confidence to do that?

Yeah, it's unfortunate that today was probably going to be an off day for Ross anyway. The message might not get sent as clearly because of that...

LaRue was very good about making plays like that. Say what you will about his footwork, arm, etc, but he was pretty good with knowing what to do with the ball in situations and he was good about getting out from behind the plate.

I don't think it's a confidence thing with Ross. I'm not 100%, but I don't think that's it. I think he would have confidence after getting AB's last year, having the Reds trade away his competition, and then starting Opening Day. I would think his confidence would be at an all-time high going into game 2 of the season. I just kind of think that Ross lacks smarts behind the plate. I've never heard that from the media or inside sources, but that's what it seems like to me. Maybe that's why he's never been looked at as anything but a backup despite his obviously decent power for a catcher? :dunno:

Razor Shines
04-05-2007, 11:23 AM
Ross is just a sloppy as hell catcher.

No argument here. Except when it come to throwing the ball. He gets rid of the ball quickly and usually puts it on the mark, and has a strong arm to go with it. It's obvious that he's worked hard on that part of his game, I just don't understand how he doesn't work as hard at blocking balls. I would guess because it sucks a whole lot more to work on "blocking balls" than it does to work on throwing out runners.


And as for the hitting. He made Ted Lilly's 88 MPH fastball look like 98. I thought he was facing Rich Harden for a while.

coachw513
04-05-2007, 11:50 AM
If I were the manager David Ross wouldn't have finished last night's game after that boneheaded play on the bunt pop up with the bases loaded.

Ross should have been all over the frickin' pop up bunt, like lightning. You shoot out from behind the plate like you stole something in that situation. If the ball manages to fall, you pick it up and you tag the plate to force the lead runner and prevent anyone from scoring. THEN you look for somewhere else on the diamond to make a play. Ross didn't really come out from behind the plate in any hurry at all. When the ball dropped, he picked it up and winged it to 2nd. That was probably the worst play he could make in that situation, forgiving that he didn't hustle after the pop up. The runner going to 2nd hadn't even taken 3-4 step off of first base yet. You have plenty of time to get that runner. Force the guy at home, first. A mistake like that at the major league level tells me that Ross' head was not in the game at that moment. And if his head was not in the game with the bases loaded in a close game, then he doesn't deserve to be out there. Since Ross didn't get taken out of last night game (no excuse), he should NOT be in today's lineup. This is a case where Narron HAS to show that he's not going to put up with this kind of play. This is a perfect situation to enforce that. I will be disappointed if Jerry Narron doesn't take advantage of it.

Wow...

I fully advocate Narron privately meeting with Ross to "coach him up" and to ensure it doesn't happen again...but to publicly humiliate the man and yank him during the game... :confused:

Any change in the lineup (headed to game thread now) should be related to pitching matchups...Ross has earned the #1 catcher's spot...he played poorly and I'm sure he was spoken to...but ML baseball players are men and I actually think one of the best things Narron does is earn respect in the clubhouse BY treating his players as men...

Just MHO...

Red Leader
04-05-2007, 12:09 PM
Wow...

I fully advocate Narron privately meeting with Ross to "coach him up" and to ensure it doesn't happen again...but to publicly humiliate the man and yank him during the game... :confused:

Just MHO...


I understand your position, but Ross HAS to know better if he's your #1 catcher, your leader. Maybe I'm a little old school in my approach, but if a guy I'm expecting to be my leader on the field pulls a play like that and shows me he has his head up his *** in a crucial spot in the game (bases loaded, close score) then I think it not only sends a message to that player that kind of behavior isn't tolerated, it also sends a message to the other players on the team that I'm not going to tolerate not keeping your head in the game and that if they don't keep their head in the game, someone will replace them that will.

I was a catcher for a lot of years. I caught a lot of blowout wins and a lot of blowout losses. In a bases loaded situation in those games, I knew my head had to be in the game. There is absolutely no excuse at all, at anytime, for a major league catcher not to know what to do with the ball in any bases loaded situation. Throw in the lack of effort of him getting out from behind the plate to catch the pop up and that doesn't deserve a "coach him up" talk. That deserves a clear cut message to be sent: "That's horse**** and I'm not putting up with it."

pedro
04-05-2007, 12:13 PM
I don't know Red Leader. It was a horrible play. But yank the guy? I think that would be counter productive.

BRM
04-05-2007, 12:14 PM
Who did Marty blame for the botched play? Did he rip Ross for it?

Roy Tucker
04-05-2007, 12:20 PM
... Maybe I'm a little old school in my approach ...


Just keep saying "the capital of Djibouti is Djibouti" and you'll be OK.

Red Leader
04-05-2007, 12:27 PM
I don't know Red Leader. It was a horrible play. But yank the guy? I think that would be counter productive.

Maybe I'm being a little too thick headed about this because I was a former catcher (as is Narron), but that just can't be tolerated. i could almost guarantee you that if I would have made that same play at any level I played, I would have been yanked out of the game. In fact, I can remember being yanked out of a game in high school, as a freshman, for something that wasn't as bad, IMO.

You guys are probably right. Yanking him after that inning may be a tad extreme. Saying nothing to him and just believing he will be harsh enough on himself, or that he knows better and will punish himself would be the worst thing you could do. A "talk" would definately be the middle road here. If it were me, though, I'd make sure that "talk" was pretty one-sided and that he understood where I was coming from at the end of it.

pedro
04-05-2007, 12:30 PM
Maybe I'm being a little too thick headed about this because I was a former catcher (as is Narron), but that just can't be tolerated. i could almost guarantee you that if I would have made that same play at any level I played, I would have been yanked out of the game. In fact, I can remember being yanked out of a game in high school, as a freshman, for something that wasn't as bad, IMO.

You guys are probably right. Yanking him after that inning may be a tad extreme. Saying nothing to him and just believing he will be harsh enough on himself, or that he knows better and will punish himself would be the worst thing you could do. A "talk" would definately be the middle road here. If it were me, though, I'd make sure that "talk" was pretty one-sided and that he understood where I was coming from at the end of it.

I'm just not sure that yelling at somebody really helps them overcome mental errors. Then again I always hated screaming coaches.

dabvu2498
04-05-2007, 12:32 PM
If I were the manager David Ross wouldn't have finished last night's game after that boneheaded play on the bunt pop up with the bases loaded.

But you would have cried in your postgame news conference, right, Frank Robinson?

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=260525120

Red Leader
04-05-2007, 12:36 PM
But you would have cried in your postgame news conference, right, Frank Robinson?

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=260525120

Probably. That's probably why I'm not a manager. Probably why I'd have a hard time coaching my kid's teams as well. Probably why, to this point I've stayed away from being their coach. I get too attached and am too competitive. I get too emotional when it comes to this stuff and react on emotion. Not necessarily great traits to have as a manager. I would have regretted making a decision like that based on emotion, just like Frank did.

Always Red
04-05-2007, 12:40 PM
Wow...

I fully advocate Narron privately meeting with Ross to "coach him up" and to ensure it doesn't happen again...but to publicly humiliate the man and yank him during the game... :confused:



OK, yanking him out of the game right then and there might be a little over the top...:)

But Lou Piniella had no problem stalking to the mound in the bottom of the 9th and giving Dempster what for in front of the entire civilized world. It wasn't to humiliate the man, but to make a point, both to the player, the other players on the team and the fans as well.

That's one reason Lou is well loved here- he had no problem calling out players who deserved to be. Well, plus the Reds won the Series with him managing, too. :beerme:

Guys liked playing for Lou because they knew he was demanding; he wanted your best. You can treat a man with respect, and still be demanding of him, even publicly. Not everything needs to be done behind closed doors, with no one elses knowledge.

I think Narron is a decent manager. If he were more expressive about certain situations, it would go over a lot better here. For instance, in the Ross pop-up bunt case, if he were even to say something like "that's not how we like to play the game" (I'm just imaging Jerry intoning those words...) that would probably get the point across to all, in the same way Piniella did by going out to the mound to give Dempster a quick little lecture last night.

BTW- my favorite Piniella moment was the fight with Rob Dibble- two hot headed competitors, slightly out of control! :laugh:

TOBTTReds
04-15-2007, 07:16 PM
and Dunn's going to hit 300 homers

Is Dunn still going to hit 300 HR's? Because my half is holding up (sadly).

Ludwig Reds Fan
04-15-2007, 07:50 PM
BTW- my favorite Piniella moment was the fight with Rob Dibble- two hot headed competitors, slightly out of control! :laugh:


Ditto.

"Sweet Lou..." :beerme:

TOBTTReds
04-15-2007, 08:36 PM
One thing I have to give to him is that Ross calls a much better game than JV. I think JV's offense does not even come close to Ross' ability to select pitches and determine what is necessary in certain situations.

Doro
04-16-2007, 12:09 PM
Although Ross hasnt been hitting well you also have to give him some credit for our pitcher's performance as a few others have already mentioned.