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View Full Version : The Extreme Lack of Speed Off the Bench



reds44
04-05-2007, 10:02 PM
Jeff Conine/Scott Hatteberg
Juan Castro
Javier Valentin
Chad Moeller
Josh Hamitlon

Out of the 6 some, the only one that isn't (oh my God) slow is Hamilton. However, do any of us know how fast Hamilton is? Is he a guy that can come off the bench and swipe you a base?

After watching the game today, there were points late in the game where you would think it was an obvious situation to pinch run. When Conine, then Hatteberg were on late in the game, it would seem like an obvious pinch running situation. A runner never came.

To me, it seems like not having a guy that can come off the bench with speed, or pinch hit and bunt will come back to hurt us eventually.

So I guess I have 4 questions.

1) Is the lack of speed a concern?
2) Do you think Hamilton can steal you a base as a PR if need to be, or just an adiquit pinch runner in general?
3) Do you think Wayne is shopping for a speedy OFer who plays good D?
4) Am I overreacting?

redsmetz
04-05-2007, 10:14 PM
Jeff Conine/Scott Hatteberg
Juan Castro
Javier Valentin
Chad Moeller
Josh Hamitlon

Out of the 6 some, the only one that isn't (oh my God) slow is Hamilton. However, do any of us know how fast Hamilton is? Is he a guy that can come off the bench and swipe you a base?

After watching the game today, there were points late in the game where you would think it was an obvious situation to pinch run. When Conine, then Hatteberg were on late in the game, it would seem like an obvious pinch
running situation. A runner never came.
To me, it seems like not having a guy that can come off the bench with speed, or pinch hit and bunt will come back to hurt us eventually.

So I guess I have 4 questions.

1) Is the lack of speed a concern?
2) Do you think Hamilton can steal you a base as a PR if need to be, or just an adiquit pinch runner in general?
3) Do you think Wayne is shopping for a speedy OFer who plays good D?
4) Am I overreacting?

1) Yes, somewhat

2) Yes, but I don't think he's Freel fast.

3) Maybe. I think the roster is still a work in progress, particularly with the DL situations we have. I think if they can move an arm for an OFer, they'll do it.

4) Well... that's a regular passtime around here, isn't it? It is a legitimate concern.

M2
04-06-2007, 01:42 AM
There's an extreme lack of everything with this bench.

Dunner44
04-06-2007, 01:47 AM
At least we don't have to worry about Luke Hudson pinch running...

M2
04-06-2007, 02:16 AM
At least we don't have to worry about Luke Hudson pinch running...

I preffered that to his pitching.

thatcoolguy_22
04-06-2007, 03:43 AM
1) Is the lack of speed a concern?

It most certainly is. In late game situations a speedy pinch runner will be needed more often than a 3rd catcher will be :rolleyes: Tight game situations it does more than just allow a runner to score from 1st on the double. Fast baserunners often stress the pitcher and breaks concentration. Constantly throwing balls over to first often allow for either A) more hittable pitches for the batter or B) more walks which in turn lead to more runs. Just the mere presence of a speedy baserunner on 1st can often change a pitcher's entire approach. We are missing this aspect.

2) Do you think Hamilton can steal you a base as a PR if need be, or just an adequate pinch runner in general?

Any answer here is just a shot in the dark so I'm going to say that the sample size is too small but he does show raw speed (baserunning ability? who knows at this point). I would like to think that he has the ability to though. He is a "5 tool talent" for crying out loud...

3) Do you think Wayne is shopping for a speedy OFer who plays good D?

From the sounds of the whole victor santos thing (originally announcing only a 24 man roster...) and his talks about a trade in the works it sure sounds like it. Especially with Deno going down for the year. With the somewhat improved bullpen it seems to me to be the 1st matter of priority on this club. Everything else people often complain about this team would require a complete overhaul and massive roster changes to solve. But this is a glaring weakness on the team that appears to have an easy solution. Trade a member from our plethora of mediocre to above average bull pen guys for an average outfielder known more for his speed and defense with a little pop. There have been countless threads with reasonable guys to look at that could be had cheaply...

see for a list http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56292

4) Am I overreacting

Any and all questions are worth asking. I agree completely though. If Freel is starting there is absolutely no one to come off the bench in late inning situations that could nab a bag or 2

bucksfan2
04-06-2007, 09:36 AM
Whatever happened to Jerry Gil? I know he wasn't going to make the big league club but I thought his speed could be used in certain situations. Also can't bubba crosby steal bases? I remember when Dave Roberts was basically on the redsox to be a pinch runner and base stealer. When the season starts winding down cant the reds call up a guy like Dickerson to just be a base runner?

wheels
04-06-2007, 09:45 AM
The club is living on borrowed time with the bench as is currently constructed.

Yeah, they lack speed, but also pretty much everything else.

BRM
04-06-2007, 10:03 AM
Whatever happened to Jerry Gil? I know he wasn't going to make the big league club but I thought his speed could be used in certain situations.

Gil is on the 15 day DL. I expect he'll be in Louisville when he's healthy.

REDREAD
04-06-2007, 10:56 AM
Perhaps when Hopper comes off the DL or if Wayne trades for an OF, then Narron will be more inclined to use Hamilton as a PR. When Conine starts, Hamilton is the only OF available to back up all 3 OF slots. I can see why Narron is hestitant to burn Hamilton as a PR.

Reds1
04-06-2007, 01:02 PM
Perhaps when Hopper comes off the DL or if Wayne trades for an OF, then Narron will be more inclined to use Hamilton as a PR. When Conine starts, Hamilton is the only OF available to back up all 3 OF slots. I can see why Narron is hestitant to burn Hamilton as a PR.

This was close to my post. Deno going down hurt this, but Hopper should help fill this gap and then with Hamilton starts you'll have Freel and Hopper on the bench. The extreme weakness will be a strength on those days. I'll feel bad for Deno, but Hopper and Hamilton should get every opportunity. I personally think Hamilton could be a key this year. Not sure how long Freel is going to make it!

MaineRed
04-06-2007, 01:20 PM
I think we need to be patient. It is obvious nobody planned on heading north with this bench. Deno going down really hurt. Other teams are going to have guys coming off injuries and there will be decisions that need to be made. Perhaps we can steal a guy who is out of options somewhere or something like that. I have nobody specific in mind but I have to beleive there are some guys out there who can be had. A Cody Ross type move.

Wayne is simply doing what his critics ask him to do, not give up the farm just to fill a need. Right now we need some speed on our bench and it could probably be had if we offered "the moon". But obviously WK hasn't offered that but he clearly hasn't been able to find a fit with what he is offering.

This brings up an interesting question. What should he do? Say he has determined what he will give up for a 5th OF type with some speed but other teams aren't biting. Does he sit still and read the complaints here about how stupid he is not to have more speed or does he, offer the moon?

KronoRed
04-06-2007, 01:50 PM
Yeah, they lack speed, but also pretty much everything else.

Not veteran presence ;)

Red Leader
04-06-2007, 01:59 PM
Honestly, they would truly benefit from a speedy, good glove OFer on the bench, a RH one at that.

The problem the current makeup causes is that Hamilton is not only probably the best bat on the bench in terms of hitting for avg. He's also the only backup OFer when Conine starts at 1B, and he's the only guy with any speed.

So, if Conine is starting at 1B, Jerry can't PH Hamilton at just any spot in the game. He has to save him in the event an OF needs taken out of the game. He also can't use the only semi-fast guy he's got on his bench as a PR in these cases.

I'm hoping all of these problems go away soon. I'm hoping as soon as Hopper is healthy, he'll take Moeller's spot on the bench and Moeller will be sent elsewhere.

Still not an ideal bench with Hopper instead of Moeller, but it doesn't hamstring the team as much as the current configuration.

Jr's Boy
04-06-2007, 02:27 PM
Krivsky needs to pickup Joey Gathright,the Royals released him.No bat,but blazing speed.

bucksfan2
04-06-2007, 02:30 PM
Honestly, they would truly benefit from a speedy, good glove OFer on the bench, a RH one at that.

The problem the current makeup causes is that Hamilton is not only probably the best bat on the bench in terms of hitting for avg. He's also the only backup OFer when Conine starts at 1B, and he's the only guy with any speed.

So, if Conine is starting at 1B, Jerry can't PH Hamilton at just any spot in the game. He has to save him in the event an OF needs taken out of the game. He also can't use the only semi-fast guy he's got on his bench as a PR in these cases.

I'm hoping all of these problems go away soon. I'm hoping as soon as Hopper is healthy, he'll take Moeller's spot on the bench and Moeller will be sent elsewhere.

Still not an ideal bench with Hopper instead of Moeller, but it doesn't hamstring the team as much as the current configuration.

Even if Conine is starting at 1b it doesn't mean he cant play outfield at some point in the game. If Conine is at 1b, Hamilton has already been used, and an outfielder needs to come out of the game you can put Conine in the outfield and put either Hatty, Castro, and Valentine at 1b.

TC81190
04-06-2007, 02:34 PM
Krivsky needs to pickup Joey Gathright,the Royals released him.No bat,but blazing speed.

He will be here in several days.

George Anderson
04-06-2007, 02:37 PM
He will be here in several days.

Any chance he could bring a top notch starting pitcher with him??

Red Leader
04-06-2007, 02:45 PM
Even if Conine is starting at 1b it doesn't mean he cant play outfield at some point in the game. If Conine is at 1b, Hamilton has already been used, and an outfielder needs to come out of the game you can put Conine in the outfield and put either Hatty, Castro, and Valentine at 1b.

I guess that's true. If Freel has to come out, Jr. can switch to CF and Conine could move to RF and someone else could be brought in to play 1B.. Forgot we had Freel, Griffey and Hamilton who can play CF.

reds44
04-06-2007, 02:47 PM
Krivsky needs to pickup Joey Gathright,the Royals released him.No bat,but blazing speed.
I love Gathright's speed and defense, but he's not right handed, and he's never hit.

His career line is .251/.319/.304

Now I'm not real concerned about his slugging, but he needs to be getting on base more to take advantage of the speed.

I guess if you could get him for nothing then ok, just because he is better then what we have, but he's nothing special. He is fast, and he does play good D though.

TC81190
04-06-2007, 02:49 PM
Maybe Jacoby can teach him to walk...

reds44
04-06-2007, 02:53 PM
Maybe Jacoby can teach him to walk...
And hit.

Jr's Boy
04-06-2007, 03:12 PM
He won't be winning no silver slugger awards.I'm talkin about the need for speed.

Raisor
04-06-2007, 03:46 PM
I love Gathright's speed and defense, but he's not right handed, and he's never hit.

His career line is .251/.319/.304

Now I'm not real concerned about his slugging, but he needs to be getting on base more to take advantage of the speed.

I guess if you could get him for nothing then ok, just because he is better then what we have, but he's nothing special. He is fast, and he does play good D though.

He's got 40 OBP points on Castro's career OBP. I'm all for an All-Scrappy Team!

reds44
04-06-2007, 03:56 PM
He's got 40 OBP points on Castro's career OBP. I'm all for an All-Scrappy Team!
Castro's career OBP is .279?

Oh my God that's awful.

Raisor
04-06-2007, 03:58 PM
Castro's career OBP is .279?

Oh my God that's awful.

No, to be "awful" it would need to be 20 points HIGHER.

His .279 is HISTORICLY AWFUL.

Red Leader
04-06-2007, 04:02 PM
No, to be "awful" it would need to be 20 points HIGHER.

His .279 is HISTORICLY AWFUL.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Cyclone792
04-06-2007, 04:23 PM
No, to be "awful" it would need to be 20 points HIGHER.

His .279 is HISTORICLY AWFUL.

Yep, Juan Castro is probably one of the worst 10-15 hitters in the history of baseball that A) weren't pitchers, and B) still managed to tally at least 2,000 career plate appearances. His career OPS+ 59, thanks to his career OPS of .612, is just something to marvel at.

Of course, the Reds should be proud that we also have arguably the worst pitcher in franchise history (minimum of 50 starts) in Eric Milton. So when Sunday rolls around and Milton is activated from the DL, the Reds will once again - just like last season - have two of their roster spots occupied by a player who is one of the worst hitters in MLB history and another player who is arguably the worst pitcher in franchise history.

Oh, and we know how Narron loves his Sunday lineups. It's quite possible that not only will Milton start Sunday, but Juan Castro could also be in the lineup. I'm sure it happened a few times last season too, but it's always one heck of an accomplishment each time we're able to see it happen again.

Chip R
04-06-2007, 04:29 PM
No, to be "awful" it would need to be 20 points HIGHER.

His .279 is HISTORICLY AWFUL.


Yes, but he has power. I know that's a fact cause I heard it during ST and right after that he hit a home run.

Matt700wlw
04-06-2007, 04:30 PM
Hamilton's has speed......hell, it looks like he has everything (at least to this point)

TeamSelig
04-06-2007, 09:14 PM
I just thought of this... I know how everyone hates Castro (I think he is really valuable for his D and ability to play the whole INF), but as a utility defensive infielder... he has no value anymore.

3B - Encarnacion : greatly improving, rangy, etc.
SS - A-Gon : one of the top SS in the game defensively
2B - Phillips : pretty good D

The only player that is not above average defensively is the combo of Hatt/Conine, which are about average I'd say.

We have no need for Castro anymore. I think our bench would be best suited to have offensive guys that lack great fielding skills.

Jeff Conine/Scott Hatteberg - I'm okay with the platoon until Votto is ready

Javier Valentin - good pinch hitter I guess... not bad for a back up

Chad Moeller - we need to get rid of the ignorant 3 catcher rule. Moeller has no offensive game

Josh Hamilton - his upside is still up in the air, if he pans out he should have both offense & defense

What a horrible bench. Am I missing someone? Only 4 bench players, and one is a 3rd catcher.

We need to replace Moeller with an OF who has some speed or pop in the bat even if they can't play defense. If its a COF we can always move Griffey to center for days that he plays.

Then replacing Castro with an Aurilia type player would be fine by me.

Ideas?

- Reggie Sanders ;)
- Coco Crisp?
- David Dejesus
- Marcus Thames
- Matt Stairs
Hey where did big Russell Branyan go these days? Or the famous Ben Brossard?

For the INF spot
- Tony Graffanino
- Eric Hinske

rotnoid
04-06-2007, 11:59 PM
For the INF spot
- Tony Graffanino
- Eric Hinske

Been there, done that.

BLEEDS
04-07-2007, 12:37 AM
SERIOUSLY - do we REALLY NEED A THIRD CATCHER that Bad?!?!??!

Send Moeller somewhere and bring up a seldom-used platoon OF-er with Speed and Defense to PR and/or play late-inning D in the OF.

SHEESH, it's not that Hard!!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

MaineRed
04-07-2007, 08:39 AM
Javier Valentin - good pinch hitter I guess

Valentin is a career .180 hitter in the pinch. They posted his numbers last night on Fox.