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View Full Version : No offense, but what is with the apathy in Cincinnati for the Reds?



GOREDSGO32
04-06-2007, 05:59 PM
I'm probably going to get bashed or whatever, but oh well, I thought I would say it. I live in Louisville, and we do pretty darn good for a minor league town. Not the early days of the Redbirds or anything which were the first minor league team to draw over 1,000,000 in a season, but its pretty solid considering the current state of baseball - the Bats are always tops or near tops in attendence in the minor leagues.

What I don't understand is why the Reds recieve so much apathy in Cincinnati? Is the the distrust of the ownership over the years with a lot of broken promises (a billionare owner who wouldn't spend a penny to create a solid team), very bad payroll decisions (Eric Milton), and the expectation that the new stadium was supposed to bring in a new era, only for the team to be horrible the stadium's inaugural year?

What I point at is 42,000 strong opening day, which is always a sellout for practically every team ... but why did the attendence drop from that to around 25,000 the next two games? The Cubs usually always bring a string contingent to Cincy games also. so I'm not understanding what the deal is.

Last year before the great West Coast collapse when the Reds were 66-60, that win over Houston, only 22,000 fans showed up for that with the team currently in a playoff spot. The last game of the year last year only drew a little over 16,000, granted the Reds were dead to rights at that point pretty much, but comeon ... the last game of the year there and no one cared?

The "other" team there, the Bengals, meanwhile sold out past capacity on every game according to figures, despite finishing the season almost the exact same way the Reds did - missing the playoffs by a little and with about the same record. I can understand the NFL is more popular than MLB nowadays, but Cincinnati has typically been a baseball city yet there seems to be more support for traditionally one of the worst NFL franchises in history. Why?

adampad
04-06-2007, 06:04 PM
The big difference is the Bengals had the talent to win and SHOULD have won much more than they did. Instead the snatched defeat from the jaws of victory over and over. Also, there are only 8 NFL games in Cincy compared to 81 MLB games.

The Reds have been in contention at the break quite a few times lately but they either fall apart or trade everyone away. And it seemed when they did get a good crowd they would lose the game. The team was just consistently inconsistent. It was hard to really believe in them.

GOREDSGO32
04-06-2007, 06:12 PM
I'm not a Bengals fan, but I laugh at that fact. Half the team was in jail by the time the season started. I know the NFL is more popular, and with only 8 games, its easy for any city to support a team for 8 days of the year, compared to 81, but the Reds should and have gotten more support in the past with similar teams as the Bengals. Not 100% sellout or anything, no one in MLB pulls that off except an elite group of teams with rabid fanbases, but I don't see why the Reds can't pull around 30,000 plus at least every game.

KittyDuran
04-06-2007, 06:16 PM
This year... bone chillin' COLD for the first week after OD. We'll see if the attendance breaks 12K each game this weekend...:p:

HumnHilghtFreel
04-06-2007, 06:17 PM
This year... bone chillin' COLD for the first week after OD. We'll see if the attendance breaks 12K each game this weekend...:p:

That's what I was thinking too. It's just plain cold.

edabbs44
04-06-2007, 06:26 PM
This year... bone chillin' COLD for the first week after OD. We'll see if the attendance breaks 12K each game this weekend...:p:

52k paid atendance at Yankee Stadium yesterday, and it was FREEZING.

Now, I know that:

1) NYC has way more people
2) Not all of those 52k went to the game.

But the cold doesn't bother people out here as much as it seems to in Ohio. There's really no excuse for the paltry attendance numbers that come out of Cincy each year.

Last season, it was all "wait until the kids are out of school." Then down the stretch, Bob had to slash prices to get people in the ballpark.

I realize that many people on here go to many games each season (and I even fly out for a series each year and hit all 3 games) but the excuses are pathetic for most fans.

Always Red
04-06-2007, 06:45 PM
Then down the stretch, Bob had to slash prices to get people in the ballpark.



And it didn't work. People still didn't go to the games. He basically gave away tickets last year and begged folks to come, and they would not come, not even to watch a team in the thick of a pennant race. I realize the 2006 Reds were not the best team ever, but they were in the middle of the race.

I thought it was really embarrasing, especially when people still call this a baseball town. I don't think it is any longer, it's a city with a great baseball history. This was discussed thoroughly in a great thread a while back.

I grew up with the BRM, and was 9 when the BRM Reds first went to the World Series, in 1970. That stretch of 9 years (1970-1979) was truly magical, one of a kind. But I also think that, in a way, it ruined most of those fans, spoiled them, for the rest of their lives. A lot of them will no longer watch because this generations teams do not compare. Not everyone feels this way; obviously I do not, and neither do the other die-hards here @ RZ.

Add that to the pace of the game, which doesn't coincide well with today's hyperkinetc world. Although baseball benefitted early from TV, it doesn't play well at all on the tube, and football and even basketball are much better "TV shows" than the grand old game is.

I really wish folks would pack the park and watch the Reds. What I've said above just scratches the surface; there are as many reasons that folks don't go as there are people. I also think that a part of it is that, in many ways, our city is dying; and it gets reflected in it's sports teams. My friends and I debate this long and hard. The other regional cities are either catching up or flying right by us. When I was 20, Indianapolis was a nice little place, and Cleveland was a joke. Both have flown right by Cincinnati as places to be. Louisville also is a very exciting, vibrant place, compared to us. I don't have the answers to why it's happening, but I do know that the folks who run the county and the city are all afraid of change, all of them are afraid of progress.

My wife says it's time to eat dinner, and it's just as well that I get off the soapbox and end this rant right now...:rant: :D

Falls City Beer
04-06-2007, 06:49 PM
There are myriad theories for poor attendance; I'll stick with Ockham: crappy teams breed small crowds.

RFS62
04-06-2007, 06:53 PM
There are myriad theories for poor attendance; I'll stick with Ockham: crappy teams breed small crowds.


Indeed.

Especially the marginal fans.

Freaks like RedsZoners will be there come hell or high water.

The 'Nati has a mutant shortage, that's all.

redsgabp
04-06-2007, 06:55 PM
I'm probably going to get bashed or whatever, but oh well, I thought I would say it. I live in Louisville, and we do pretty darn good for a minor league town. Not the early days of the Redbirds or anything which were the first minor league team to draw over 1,000,000 in a season, but its pretty solid considering the current state of baseball - the Bats are always tops or near tops in attendence in the minor leagues.

What I don't understand is why the Reds recieve so much apathy in Cincinnati? Is the the distrust of the ownership over the years with a lot of broken promises (a billionare owner who wouldn't spend a penny to create a solid team), very bad payroll decisions (Eric Milton), and the expectation that the new stadium was supposed to bring in a new era, only for the team to be horrible the stadium's inaugural year?

What I point at is 42,000 strong opening day, which is always a sellout for practically every team ... but why did the attendence drop from that to around 25,000 the next two games? The Cubs usually always bring a string contingent to Cincy games also. so I'm not understanding what the deal is.

Last year before the great West Coast collapse when the Reds were 66-60, that win over Houston, only 22,000 fans showed up for that with the team currently in a playoff spot. The last game of the year last year only drew a little over 16,000, granted the Reds were dead to rights at that point pretty much, but comeon ... the last game of the year there and no one cared?

The "other" team there, the Bengals, meanwhile sold out past capacity on every game according to figures, despite finishing the season almost the exact same way the Reds did - missing the playoffs by a little and with about the same record. I can understand the NFL is more popular than MLB nowadays, but Cincinnati has typically been a baseball city yet there seems to be more support for traditionally one of the worst NFL franchises in history. Why?

I hope I don't get negative points for this but, my god are you slow or something?

The reds could go 50-112 and draw 42k for the next years opening day.

You ask why the attendance drop off from opening day?
1) It's opening day!
2) how does a 40 degree temperature swing sound.

I don't know how many people you expect to go to a baseball game when it's snowing.

I bought tickets and went down on thursday, because I had sold mine for thursday.

If anything a 25k crowd in freezing conditions, show that attendance should be good this year.
--------------------------------------------------
And you want to bring the bengals into this?

The Bengals have 8 home games.
The Reds have 81 home games.

The bengals play in winter conditions and the fans know that and are ready for the conditions.

If you remember the bengals didn't always sellout the last few seasons.
A few years back CH 12 WKRC bought up the tickets so that they could broadcast the bengals game on tv.

The bengals had to show that they could win before the "fans"
(if you call them that)
came back to watch the games.

The biggest problem the Reds have had has been ownership.
Carl Lindner has set us back 10 years.

REDREAD
04-06-2007, 06:56 PM
I'm just speaking for myself, but I feel betrayed by Allen and Lindner lying for years that they were going to build a contender for 2003 when they had no intention of doing so.

Cast came in and talked a big talk. He'll be at least a slight improvement, but the jury is still out. He did raise payroll, but the owners have had a huge cash infusion. While I enjoy following them as a fan, frankly, the product was mediocre last year (sub-500) and I really wasn't jazzed about what they did in the offseason to improve.

Couple that with the fact that Edwin E is the only really exciting young player they've brought up in years, and the crappy way they treated Larkin and they are going to have to start winning again to get me to bring my family back. It's not even the money. It's the time. If you buy a ticket in advance, you go through all the hassle to get there and then you might end up seeing Milton or someone like Michelik start the game.. That's the most depressing feeling, when you buy tickets in advance and then you find out a stinker is scheduled to start the game. Doesn't make for an entertaining Saturday afternoon.

REDREAD
04-06-2007, 06:59 PM
I thought it was really embarrasing, especially when people still call this a baseball town. I don't think it is any longer, it's a city with a great baseball history.

And I think Allen and Lindner have a lot to do with killing the city's enthusiasm. After so many years of false promises and penny pinching, it's going to take more than a .500 team that is in "contention" only due to everyone else stinking to get people excited.

I do think it was a great gesture for Cast to cut ticket prices and his other promotions. That was quite generous. But it's going to take more than that to win people's hearts back.

paintmered
04-06-2007, 07:00 PM
Indeed.

Especially the marginal fans.

Freaks like RedsZoners will be there come hell or high water.

The 'Nati has a mutant shortage, that's all.


When UC was winning, Cincinnati was a "college basketball town".

When the Big Red Machine was in full force, Cincinnati was a "baseball town".

When the Bengals re-emerged, Cincinnati became a "football town."

When the Reds find themselves back in the NLCS or World Series, Cincinnati will magically become a "baseball town" again.

redsgabp
04-06-2007, 07:18 PM
Carl Lindner
Interviewed by Leah Hoffmann 02.14.06
http://www.forbes.com/2006/02/11/carl-linder-money_cx_lh_money06_0214linder.html

QUESTION ASKED: To me, money is...
Carl Lindner: a medium of exchange that one must learn to use wisely.


Q)My last significant purchase was...
A)the Cincinnati Hills Christian Academy.

According to the 2006 issue of Forbes Magazine's 400 list, which lists the 400 richest people in America, he was ranked 133 and was worth an estimated $2.3 billion

His cheap butt has cost us years of mediorce seasons.

MrCinatit
04-06-2007, 07:30 PM
The Allen/Linder years were very painful for me personally - but not the only reasons.
Actually, the 1989 season hurt. A lot. It was the first season in my life I did not follow the Reds religiously game-by-game - and it was not so much because of the pathetic performance of the team, but the off-field Pete Rose incident. It took a while to recover from that.
Yes, '90 helped - but after that, we seemed to have an owner who was more interested in getting her own name in the paper and her own glory rather than the good of the team.
And finally, having the team owned by one who was more interested in the bottom line and using the Reds as a tax write off did not help one bit.

sonny
04-06-2007, 07:30 PM
Carl Lindner
Interviewed by Leah Hoffmann 02.14.06
http://www.forbes.com/2006/02/11/carl-linder-money_cx_lh_money06_0214linder.html

QUESTION ASKED: To me, money is...
Carl Lindner: a medium of exchange that one must learn to use wisely.


Q)My last significant purchase was...
A)the Cincinnati Hills Christian Academy.

According to the 2006 issue of Forbes Magazine's 400 list, which lists the 400 richest people in America, he was ranked 133 and was worth an estimated $2.3 billion

His cheap butt has cost us years of mediorce seasons.

Why buy a baseball team then? It's like playing the Sims but with real people.

dougdirt
04-06-2007, 07:41 PM
Carl Lindner
Interviewed by Leah Hoffmann 02.14.06
http://www.forbes.com/2006/02/11/carl-linder-money_cx_lh_money06_0214linder.html

QUESTION ASKED: To me, money is...
Carl Lindner: a medium of exchange that one must learn to use wisely.


Q)My last significant purchase was...
A)the Cincinnati Hills Christian Academy.

According to the 2006 issue of Forbes Magazine's 400 list, which lists the 400 richest people in America, he was ranked 133 and was worth an estimated $2.3 billion

His cheap butt has cost us years of mediorce seasons.

I always hear that about him.... but lets face it, all owners are in the business of making money. You can only spend so much money and stay in the green. Now how much money that actually was, I don't know, but I sure don't expect an owner to spend 95 million on a payroll when 75 million is going to put him in the red.

redsgabp
04-06-2007, 07:51 PM
I always hear that about him.... but lets face it, all owners are in the business of making money. You can only spend so much money and stay in the green. Now how much money that actually was, I don't know, but I sure don't expect an owner to spend 95 million on a payroll when 75 million is going to put him in the red.

if he would of put 95 mil in the payroll, then he would of had butts in the seats.

butts in the seats mean more money.

BigJohn
04-06-2007, 07:56 PM
Last September's Fizzle is as much to blame as anything!

kxblue
04-06-2007, 08:13 PM
When UC was winning, Cincinnati was a "college basketball town".

When the Big Red Machine was in full force, Cincinnati was a "baseball town".

When the Bengals re-emerged, Cincinnati became a "football town."

When the Reds find themselves back in the NLCS or World Series, Cincinnati will magically become a "baseball town" again.


We are still a college basketball town, now we are just a Xavier town!:beerme:

Always Red
04-06-2007, 09:15 PM
Some quick facts:

Reds market size: 28 out of 30
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/articles/baseball_markets.shtml

Reds home attendance 2006: 22 out of 30
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/attendance?sort=home_avg&year=2006&seasonType=2

Reds payroll 2006:22 out of 30
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/a-look-inside-the-2006-open-day-payrolls/

I read the payroll this year has moved up to 20th, out of 30.
I've also seen the Reds market size estimated as high as 22nd, but this would include Indianapolis, Louisville and Columbus. All of those cities have many Reds fans, of course, but I would not include them in calculating Cincinnati's market size.

dfs
04-06-2007, 09:17 PM
pete
the strikes still hurts a lot of folks in this part of the world.
Marge
Linder
John Allen was convinced folks come to the ballpark to eat hot dogs instead of to watch baseball.
The team has a recent history of cratering late in the season.
There is a general mailais about overpaid atheletes. Times are tough here.
Times are tough here. I know several blue collar families who are truely priced out of even the fairly cheap prices at GAB.
The dragons eat into the folks that would come from Dayton.
They have a history of getting rid of good managers for silly reasons and putting fools in the managers seat and waiting too long to get rid of them.
Dan O'Brien gave the fans no hope at all.
Barry Larkin was one of the classiest players I have ever had the pleasure of watching. His "retirement" was an ongoing soap opera that even I got tired of. Compare with Ripken's retirement.
Junior gets hurt like clockwork.
The reds HAVE developed youngish talent, but it hasn't always worked out well and they usually run young guys out of town when they get pricey. (Lopez/Kearns/Pena/Dunn/Young/Casey) By the time my mom (for instance) begins to recognize a players name, he's gone.

None of those things are huge or game breaking, but they add up to keep folks away.

FWIW last year several times I walked up to GAB on game day and was able to obtain good seats at a very reasonable rate. In mid July, I happened to travel to St. Louis. We could not get 4 together anywhere in the house. We couldn't even get into the stadium for less than $75 each. At the time the reds were in front of the Cardinals in the standings, but the Cardinals have given their fans a recent history of success and the fans have responded by selling the place out regularly.

paintmered
04-06-2007, 09:19 PM
Some quick facts:

Reds market size: 28 out of 30
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/articles/baseball_markets.shtml

Reds home attendance 2006: 22 out of 30
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/attendance?sort=home_avg&year=2006&seasonType=2

Reds payroll 2006:22 out of 30
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/a-look-inside-the-2006-open-day-payrolls/

I read the payroll this year has moved up to 20th, out of 30.
I've also seen the Reds market size estimated as high as 22nd, but this would include Indianapolis, Louisville and Columbus. All of those cities have many Reds fans, of course, but I would not include them in calculating Cincinnati's market size.

I've heard that in less 10 years, Cincy and Dayton will merge to a single metro area which will rank somewhere in the teens in terms of population (over 3 million).

Always Red
04-06-2007, 09:22 PM
I've heard that in less 10 years, Cincy and Dayton will merge to a single metro area which will rank somewhere in the teens in terms of population (over 3 million).

They should have built the ballpark in Middlletown!

rotnoid
04-06-2007, 10:00 PM
More than anything the business of baseball has taken its toll on Cincinnati. The revenue sharing system is a joke compared to that of football, the disparity in payrolls of the large and small market teams is growing yearly, and it seems to most folks that the Reds sit idly by. While in cases like this past offseason that may be the best maneuver, it's not the sexiest.

The casual fan doesn't know enough about baseball to understand that throwing money on over rated pitchers isn't enough to get in the race. Not doing so comes off as not trying. Last year at the trade deadline the Reds were in the race. They were in a playoff spot and local media outlets started speculating as to all of the big names they could land to improve the team. The splash moves were hyped, but they never came. When all we got was Kyle Lohse and Rheal Cormier the average fan's response was a giant-- eh.

Most of us on this board understand that mortgaging the future for the now is not the best way to run a franchise, but the casual observer (those that are going to fill those extra 10-20 thousand seats on any given night) only sees that they aren't trying hard enough to win. It's going to take time. The Bengals didn't sell out immediately when Marvin came to town. It took awhile for everyone to start drinking the Marvin-aid. Castellini and Krivsky have a plan, unfortunately for those looking for immediate improvement, it's going to take time.

gilpdawg
04-06-2007, 10:01 PM
They should have built the ballpark in Middlletown!

And then instead of Take Me Out To The Ballgame, they could play "Middletown Dreams" by Rush for the 7th inning stretch. :D

Yachtzee
04-06-2007, 10:04 PM
pete
the strikes still hurts a lot of folks in this part of the world.
Marge
Linder
John Allen was convinced folks come to the ballpark to eat hot dogs instead of to watch baseball.
The team has a recent history of cratering late in the season.
There is a general mailais about overpaid atheletes. Times are tough here.
Times are tough here. I know several blue collar families who are truely priced out of even the fairly cheap prices at GAB.
The dragons eat into the folks that would come from Dayton.
They have a history of getting rid of good managers for silly reasons and putting fools in the managers seat and waiting too long to get rid of them.
Dan O'Brien gave the fans no hope at all.
Barry Larkin was one of the classiest players I have ever had the pleasure of watching. His "retirement" was an ongoing soap opera that even I got tired of. Compare with Ripken's retirement.
Junior gets hurt like clockwork.
The reds HAVE developed youngish talent, but it hasn't always worked out well and they usually run young guys out of town when they get pricey. (Lopez/Kearns/Pena/Dunn/Young/Casey) By the time my mom (for instance) begins to recognize a players name, he's gone.

None of those things are huge or game breaking, but they add up to keep folks away.



That's a pretty good list of reasons. I would add to that list:

The fact that the people who have been the "face" of the Reds ownership/front office over the past 2 decades make Bud Selig look like Mr. Congeniality.
A marketing department that seems to operate under the misconception that baseball is a product that should sell itself. Couple that with the point above and it's as if the Reds have been running an anti-marketing campaign since the early '90s.
A complete and utter failure to adapt to the changing economics of major league baseball.




FWIW last year several times I walked up to GAB on game day and was able to obtain good seats at a very reasonable rate. In mid July, I happened to travel to St. Louis. We could not get 4 together anywhere in the house. We couldn't even get into the stadium for less than $75 each. At the time the reds were in front of the Cardinals in the standings, but the Cardinals have given their fans a recent history of success and the fans have responded by selling the place out regularly.

To be fair, the Cards also had a brand-spanking new stadium.

The Reds may be a "small market" team, but there's no reason why they can't be successful. They just need to work harder than some of the other teams out there. They can't expect to do what everyone else is doing and be successful.

edabbs44
04-06-2007, 10:56 PM
if he would of put 95 mil in the payroll, then he would of had butts in the seats.

butts in the seats mean more money.

I'm gonna disagree.

There was a team in a division race last season and you would have thought they were going for last place.

RedFanAlways1966
04-06-2007, 11:13 PM
if he would of put 95 mil in the payroll, then he would of had butts in the seats.

butts in the seats mean more money.

If economics were only this simple... well, we'd all be millionaires. To get all money back when increasing payroll by $35 million, you'd have to sell an add'l 1.75 million tickets at $20 per ticket ($20 is kind of steep for an average price). Sounds simple, right? Sure... the REDS increase payroll to $95 million and the REDS all of a sudden are selling near 4,000,000 seats per year. Yep, that would be an average of 49,000+ per game. I guess GABP needs an add'l 10,000 seats added for that to happen. This is starting to not get as simple as the above comment makes it sound. Sorry to make this complex, but sometimes reality can be a complex thing.

I won't even go into the "rich people get that way by not spending like fools" thing. That will make it even more complex.

Redhook
04-06-2007, 11:55 PM
Personally, even though I'm happy about it, I think there are way too many games on t.v. I really like going to Reds games....I'll probably go to one a month this year. But, I also really watching them at home with a cold beer in my hand that cost $1 instead of $7, and with a fat rib-eye on the grill. I hate the fact that it costs $5 to get into the game and over $30 for 3 beers, a hot dog, and a pretzel. It's ridiculous. To me, it's not worth the money to go to more than a handful of games a year. And I consider myself a very avid, loyal fan. I would imagine the casual Cincinnati fan would go one-time per year, at best, due to the return of fun on investment.

If I was the owner of the Reds, I would raise the ticket prices and cut the concession prices by 33-50%. Most people can justify spending $10-$20 for a ticket, but can't justify spending $7 for a beer or anything else that is outrageously priced.

BigJohn
04-07-2007, 10:05 AM
Bingo! Redhook! That in a nutshell is the #1 problem.

$4.75 for a hot dog that you can get 2 for a buck at the gas station? It reminds me of the miller High Life commercials! How true!

joeredleg
04-07-2007, 10:07 AM
I love going to Reds games. I go to as many games possible. It is sometimes hard to get down there after work. But the ticket prices really aren't that bad and you don't have to drink beer down there all the time. My wife and I bring a cooler down every game with food in it. Already cooked hot dogs wrapped in foil, and snacks. If you share a drink you only spend $6, plus tickets and parking. Remember, you are allowed to bring food in the ballpark. The cost of going down there is really minimal. People just need to want to go down.

Bobcat J
04-07-2007, 10:48 AM
Some quick facts:

Reds market size: 28 out of 30
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/articles/baseball_markets.shtml

Reds home attendance 2006: 22 out of 30
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/attendance?sort=home_avg&year=2006&seasonType=2

Reds payroll 2006:22 out of 30
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/a-look-inside-the-2006-open-day-payrolls/

I read the payroll this year has moved up to 20th, out of 30.
I've also seen the Reds market size estimated as high as 22nd, but this would include Indianapolis, Louisville and Columbus. All of those cities have many Reds fans, of course, but I would not include them in calculating Cincinnati's market size.

New metro area statistics were released just this week. Cincinnati's market size ranks 24th in MLB, and by the end of the year it will be 23rd. We will pass Cleveland in a matter of months.

http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070405/NEWS01/704050349

redsgabp
04-07-2007, 11:03 AM
Bingo! Redhook! That in a nutshell is the #1 problem.

$4.75 for a hot dog that you can get 2 for a buck at the gas station? It reminds me of the miller High Life commercials! How true!

i wish that they would sell Miller High Life at the game!
i get tired of the same miller lite and bug light.

you gotta watch out for them ght's!

:beerme:

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
04-07-2007, 11:17 AM
52k paid atendance at Yankee Stadium yesterday, and it was FREEZING.

Now, I know that:

1) NYC has way more people
2) Not all of those 52k went to the game.

But the cold doesn't bother people out here as much as it seems to in Ohio. There's really no excuse for the paltry attendance numbers that come out of Cincy each year.

Last season, it was all "wait until the kids are out of school." Then down the stretch, Bob had to slash prices to get people in the ballpark.

I realize that many people on here go to many games each season (and I even fly out for a series each year and hit all 3 games) but the excuses are pathetic for most fans.
More Reds fans like myself live further away from the stadium than Yankees fans do. I was pretty angry that I drove 45 minutes wednesday night to freeze my everything off, just to watch them lose. Would I do it again YES!:beerme:

Yachtzee
04-07-2007, 04:22 PM
New metro area statistics were released just this week. Cincinnati's market size ranks 24th in MLB, and by the end of the year it will be 23rd. We will pass Cleveland in a matter of months.

http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070405/NEWS01/704050349

Wow, I didn't realize Cleveland Metro and Pittsburgh Metro were hemorrhaging people. I guess when the economy is bad, people are less willing to tolerate the bad weather. Right now, we're sitting on another 6 inches of snow and counting.

Highlifeman21
04-07-2007, 05:10 PM
Personally, even though I'm happy about it, I think there are way too many games on t.v. I really like going to Reds games....I'll probably go to one a month this year. But, I also really watching them at home with a cold beer in my hand that cost $1 instead of $7, and with a fat rib-eye on the grill. I hate the fact that it costs $5 to get into the game and over $30 for 3 beers, a hot dog, and a pretzel. It's ridiculous. To me, it's not worth the money to go to more than a handful of games a year. And I consider myself a very avid, loyal fan. I would imagine the casual Cincinnati fan would go one-time per year, at best, due to the return of fun on investment.

If I was the owner of the Reds, I would raise the ticket prices and cut the concession prices by 33-50%. Most people can justify spending $10-$20 for a ticket, but can't justify spending $7 for a beer or anything else that is outrageously priced.

The problem with concession prices is the fact that the margin goes to whoever is staffing that stand as charity.

Say you have the Kenwood Chapter of Knothole baseball manning that stand. All the gouged prices go to that particular group as charity money.

I'm not justifying the prices, I'm just letting you know why they are that high.

westofyou
04-07-2007, 05:13 PM
Wow, I didn't realize Cleveland Metro and Pittsburgh Metro were hemorrhaging people. I guess when the economy is bad, people are less willing to tolerate the bad weather. Right now, we're sitting on another 6 inches of snow and counting.



Denver 2,408,750 229,430 91,066
Pittsburgh 2,370,776 -60,309 15,940
Portland, Ore. 2,137,565 209,684 68,125
Cleveland 2,114,155 -33,855 24,089
Cincinnati 2,104,218 94,545 17,204

Biggest Market without a team.

BTW Kudos to the Post for abbreviating Oregon "Ore" what's up with that?

roby
04-07-2007, 05:52 PM
This year... bone chillin' COLD for the first week after OD. We'll see if the attendance breaks 12K each game this weekend...:p:

No kidding! We were at Friday night's game and it was brutal. They say Saturday's game was even worse. I can only speak fro myself but, I sure don't feel apathetic. I was pretty disgruntled in the off-season until BobC signed Harang and Arroyo to long term contracts. That did it for me! That is a clear indication that this team wants to win. I know they have more to do, but what a GIANT step in the right direction. Also, I know it's a small sample size, but some of the moves I was complaining about have looked real good so far. (Connine, Stanton to name a couple). Maybe Wayne Krivsky is such a genius that those of us who are merely normal can't comprehend what he is doing. Mark me down as impressed and enjoying the resurgence of the Cincinnati Reds! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Redsland
04-07-2007, 06:24 PM
TW Kudos to the Post for abbreviating Oregon "Ore" what's up with that?
AP Style (http://www.nyu.edu/classes/copyXediting/STABBREV.html).

foltza
04-07-2007, 06:25 PM
there's alot of dancing around the obvious in this post: the reds haven't had a winning season in what, 6 years? it takes continued success for people to start coming back to the games. attendance is higher when more ppl buy season tickets. ppl only buy season tickets when there is reason for optimism at the BEGINNING of the season. that's why attendance didn't go up that much the last few years when we were in the race through july. the reds have not been good, and have not been predicted to be good by experts lately. it has very little, if anything, to do with cincinnati, other than that it is a smaller market. i'm guessing that teams outside that elite rabid fan base group (bosox, yanks, dodgers, etc) see similar trends in attendance when they are poor for several straight years.

vaticanplum
04-07-2007, 07:16 PM
i think cincinnati has a tenedency to get attached to certain things that are not long-lasting. they get atatached to certain players or teams while they don't seem to pay a lot of attention to the psport itself as it evolves. they are not always in the bars talkinga bout stats or the intricacies of the game itself like they are in a lot of placces. they are talking about pete rose but he doesn't play baseball anymore.

so when youar e attached to the transient part of the game it is hard to latch onto the current team. i thienk they care about the team more than the game which is not necesarly bad but is definitely differnt from New York or Bosotn or Chicagao where they are always fascinated byt he details of the game itwself. It isn't the money. this is a flipshipllingly cheap place to see a baseball game.

westofyou
04-07-2007, 07:28 PM
AP Style (http://www.nyu.edu/classes/copyXediting/STABBREV.html).

I thought that went the way of the metric system.

Ltlabner
04-07-2007, 07:47 PM
i think cincinnati has a tenedency to get attached to certain things that are not long-lasting. they get atatached to certain players or teams while they don't seem to pay a lot of attention to the psport itself as it evolves. they are not always in the bars talkinga bout stats or the intricacies of the game itself like they are in a lot of placces. they are talking about pete rose but he doesn't play baseball anymore.

so when youar e attached to the transient part of the game it is hard to latch onto the current team. i thienk they care about the team more than the game which is not necesarly bad but is definitely differnt from New York or Bosotn or Chicagao where they are always fascinated byt he details of the game itwself. It isn't the money. this is a flipshipllingly cheap place to see a baseball game.

Are you drunk VP? Your post has more mistakes than most of mine do! :laugh:

Chip R
04-07-2007, 08:26 PM
there's alot of dancing around the obvious in this post: the reds haven't had a winning season in what, 6 years? it takes continued success for people to start coming back to the games.

Not necessarily. The wonderful thing about history is that it tends to repeat itself. We are no better than our fathers or our grandfathers or our great grandfathers as far as attending Reds games goes. When was this city the most passionate about the Reds? After they won a world championship. You would think that fans would have been beating down the doors of Riverfront Stadium to get tickets to a Reds game then, right? I hate to break the news to you but things were no different then than they are now. Here are the cold hard facts:



Date Attendance
4-10-76 16,728
4-20-76 18,126
4-21-76 16,603

4-10-91 17,785
4-11-91 18,012

dabvu2498
04-07-2007, 08:32 PM
They should have built the ballpark in Middlletown!


Would that be under the glow of the coke plant or next to the steaming cesspool of Dix's Creek?

GoGoWhiteSox
04-08-2007, 11:01 PM
Not necessarily. The wonderful thing about history is that it tends to repeat itself. We are no better than our fathers or our grandfathers or our great grandfathers as far as attending Reds games goes. When was this city the most passionate about the Reds? After they won a world championship. You would think that fans would have been beating down the doors of Riverfront Stadium to get tickets to a Reds game then, right? I hate to break the news to you but things were no different then than they are now. Here are the cold hard facts:



Date Attendance
4-10-76 16,728
4-20-76 18,126
4-21-76 16,603

4-10-91 17,785
4-11-91 18,012


Ironically enough, the Reds' all time attendance record was set in 1976.
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/cin/history/year_by_year_results.jsp?sortByStat=ATTENDANCE&

westofyou
04-08-2007, 11:41 PM
Ironically enough, the Reds' all time attendance record was set in 1976.
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/cin/history/year_by_year_results.jsp?sortByStat=ATTENDANCE&

The Reds are the only franchise in MLB to have their all time attendance record achieved in the 1970's. The Reds were the last team to draw 1 million fans in MLB back when that was the benchmark.

Reds attendance woes have led to talk of the Reds moving in 1933, 1957 and 1965.

Jpup
04-08-2007, 11:54 PM
I was at the game on Saturday. The game was moved up due to weather. The announced attendance was 15k or so. There couldn't have been more than 6 or 8k there. I doubt there was anywhere close to that. I think local fans should be ashamed. Yes it was cold, but it no different than going to a football game. What really kills me is these people that go to a baseball game and sit inside the entire time. I guess it's more of a social event to those folks.

After the game, it's like they rolled up the sidewalks and the city died. I've never seen anything like it.

TeamBoone
04-09-2007, 12:28 AM
They had over 25,000 for the second and third games, which isn't bad considering both were weeknight games.

Saturday's game time was changed; some didn't know it was changed which could definitely have had an effect. And Sunday was Easter. Believe it or not, a whole lot of people have family events going on that don't involve baseball.

Reds Freak
04-09-2007, 12:52 AM
It seems we have had this discussion for the past 10 years. People just love to make excuses. If it's not one thing, it's another. It's too cold, it's a school night, downtown is scary, it's too hot, it's expensive, it's too dark, it's too bright, it's too slow, I'm too fat. If you really don't go to games because of the strike then you need to reevaluate your life. That was 13 years ago! The Reds could go 161-0 and may not sell out that last home game. From what I can tell, a lot of people in Cincinnati just love to sit at home and whine about why they don't go to the games.

Another reason: people in Cincinnati are cheap. They make it sound like you have to take out a loan to go to a game. Buy a cheap ticket, eat at a restaurant downtown or in Newport, park for $1 and you don't pay more than $15 a person. Get your butt off the couch, put the Cheetos down, and come to a ball game.

Obviously this post isn't directed to the people of Redszone but rather the casual fans.

macro
04-09-2007, 09:49 AM
I think local fans should be ashamed. Yes it was cold, but it no different than going to a football game.

Thing is, and I know you know this, the fans have 75 more chances to go to a Reds game this year, and chances are all 75 of those will prove more inviting days/nights to go watch a baseball game than these past five have been. With football, by the time the weather gets as cold as it is now, there may only be one or two more home games left, and there were only six (college) or eight (NFL) to begin with.

People are understandably more willing to endure a cold, uncomfortable day for the rare chance to see an NFL or major college football game than they are to see one of 81 home baseball games.

dabvu2498
04-09-2007, 10:03 AM
It was also Easter weekend.

durl
04-09-2007, 10:05 AM
there's alot of dancing around the obvious in this post: the reds haven't had a winning season in what, 6 years? it takes continued success for people to start coming back to the games.

The Cubs defy that axiom. They're known for having losing teams but still cram Wrigley (and the surrounding buildings) full for games.

Tradition can draw a good portion of fans and the Reds are starting to capitalize on that. BRM players are invited to Spring Training, the Reds Hall of Fame, etc. This might be a bizarre theory, but I believe the Reds could attract more people to games if they had gone with a more retro design (such as St. Louis') to remind people of the tradition of Reds baseball.

Other than that, perhaps Reds fans are tired of the up-and-down ride over the past 30 years. Ownership post-Marge did little to maintain the club, IMO, and it's been hard to overcome.

macro
04-09-2007, 10:48 AM
I've trotted this fact out at least once a year, and I know some are probably sick of hearing me say it...

:deadhorse

...but the Reds have made the playoffs two times since the 1979 team made it. Of the teams that were in existence then, only the Expos/Nationals have fewer.

kaldaniels
04-09-2007, 10:52 AM
I've trotted this fact out at least once a year, and I know some are probably sick of hearing me say it...

:deadhorse

...but the Reds have made the playoffs two times since the 1979 team made it. Of the teams that were in existence then, only the Expos/Nationals have fewer.

Brewers???

kaldaniels
04-09-2007, 10:57 AM
Brewers???

Eh I guess they've only won 1 division, but they did get in in that weird strike season.

REDREAD
04-09-2007, 01:06 PM
I always hear that about him.... but lets face it, all owners are in the business of making money. You can only spend so much money and stay in the green. Now how much money that actually was, I don't know, but I sure don't expect an owner to spend 95 million on a payroll when 75 million is going to put him in the red.


No one ever expected him to run the team at a loss. However, he and Allen promised us that the new stadium would generate revenues and make us competetive. We even suffered through many low payroll seasons from 1997-2002 to pay the Reds' share of the stadium, "rebuild infrastructure", and a host of other reasons. And then the Reds made no attempt at winning in 2003. Allen blocked trades that could've helped the team be competitive in 2003 and couldn't wait to have a fire sale. I honestly believe that Allen's business plan was to make it look like the Reds would be competitve (resigning Casey and Graves) and then to have the firesale after most of the advance tickets had been sold. It was an embarassment.

And in the meantime, Allen lied and told the fans that the Reds were losing money every year, except for 1998, when they made a "modest profit". So, according to Allen, the Reds can only make a profit when the payroll is about 25 million.. It's a joke.

I like following the Reds on this board, but I'm taking my family to Cleveland this year to see baseball. When Cast turns this team around (if he ever does), then I'll start taking my family back to see Reds games. I feel the Reds have stabbed us all in the back. Sure, they have the right to mislead the taxpayers, milk revenue sharing, and run out a substandard product. I also have the right to go to the Jake instead, where they've been putting a better product on the field.

REDREAD
04-09-2007, 01:11 PM
I'm gonna disagree.

There was a team in a division race last season and you would have thought they were going for last place.

Maybe some people were excited about the "playoff race" last year, but most folks saw it for what it was. The Reds finished under 500. To me, that's not a team worth getting that excited about.

It was downright painful the way the Reds basically vanished during that last month of the season. Pitiful.

REDREAD
04-09-2007, 01:16 PM
The problem with concession prices is the fact that the margin goes to whoever is staffing that stand as charity.

Say you have the Kenwood Chapter of Knothole baseball manning that stand. All the gouged prices go to that particular group as charity money.

I'm not justifying the prices, I'm just letting you know why they are that high.

But the Reds and the food company gets much more than the charity.

I used to work those charity booths.. not in Cincy, but elsewhere.

The Reds might be more generous, but when we worked them, it ended up that the charity got roughly $2.50-3.50 per hour per volunteer. If the booth was decently staffed, you got less than $3/hour.. You only got "big money" ($3.50 or so :laugh: ) if you were really shorthanded.

That's why they let charities run the concession stands, it's a lot cheaper than having real food workers. It lets them pay less than minimum wage for the labor, plus it makes them look as if they care about the community. The customers are a lot more tolerant of the untrained workers since it's for charity.

durl
04-09-2007, 01:29 PM
Maybe some people were excited about the "playoff race" last year, but most folks saw it for what it was. The Reds finished under 500. To me, that's not a team worth getting that excited about.

I have to disagree a bit here. Fans in Cincy want the Reds in the playoffs and they were in the hunt until the last few weeks of the season. That was indeed something to be excited about.

Now if you're saying that people won't get excited UNTIL they make the playoffs, that's a completely different group of fans. There will always be fans that will be negative and expect the worst. They will likely never be excited about the team no matter what.

GoGoWhiteSox
04-09-2007, 01:40 PM
The Reds are the only franchise in MLB to have their all time attendance record achieved in the 1970's.
Ugh. I didn't know about that. :(


The Cubs defy that axiom. They're known for having losing teams but still cram Wrigley (and the surrounding buildings) full for games.
That's because a lot of people don't go to Wrigley just to watch the Cubs, they go more for the "experience of being at Wrigley," a historic ballpark. It's one of Chicago's major tourist attractions. When they actually have a good team there (which doesn't happen too often), that's just icing on the cake. Plus, the Cubs are a well-marketed team since the Tribune used to own them(thank goodness they're finally selling them) and they're on WGN a lot.

Believe me, if any of the other 29 teams have 6 straight losing seasons, they will feel it at the gate too (maybe with the exception of the Red Sox and Dodgers). Since it's Cincinnati though, the Reds will feel it a bit more than other teams in bigger cities. When you stink, people aren't going to show up.

M2
04-09-2007, 02:10 PM
BTW Kudos to the Post for abbreviating Oregon "Ore" what's up with that?

That's AP style. Newspapers don't use postal abbreviations.

westofyou
04-09-2007, 02:15 PM
That's because a lot of people don't go to Wrigley just to watch the Cubs, they go more for the "experience of being at Wrigley," a historic ballpark. It's one of Chicago's major tourist attractions.

In my "History of the National League" book that came out in 1948 the Cubs chapter devotes a good amount of praise to the fans that that come out to enjoy the "Friendly Confines" and goes on to say that even bad teams do good in Chicago.

That's almost 60 years ago and it still applies.

edabbs44
04-09-2007, 02:23 PM
It was also Easter weekend.

Yep...there were:

14k at the Easter Reds game
16,308 at the Easter Marlins game
13k at the Easter KC game

36k at the Easter Houston game
47k at the Easter Yankee game

I guess Easter is more of a "small-market" holiday? I'm so sick of the excuses for Cincy's attendance woes. If it's not one thing, it's another.

M2
04-09-2007, 02:30 PM
I maintain Carl Lindner poisoned the franchise with his cynical ownership. For all of her faults, and she was all kinds of awful, Marge Schott understood the importance of winning. She understood that it's a competitive enterprise.

Lindner treated the team like it was a bread and circus operation - come and see the show, don't pay attention to the score. The tragedy of it was that the fanbase, after having taken the 1994 strike as hard as any city in baseball, was ready to come back after the flourish of 1999 and the Jr. acquisition. Had the Reds spent on some pitching, put together a team that could have been a consistent winner heading into the 2003 GAB launch, then the Reds would be looking at a very different reality.

Unfortunately Lindner refused to invest in his product and there was no one on hand like a Billy Beane to make the franchise work on a modest budget. Reds fans were savvy enough to spot a cheap imitation. The wounds Lindner inflicted are still open and it's going to take the balm of sustained success to heal them.

cincrazy
04-09-2007, 02:35 PM
I get very frustrated with our fan base at times. On Sunday, I was in the section right behind the Diamond Seats. A complete stranger was nice enough to give me 2 free tickets, and even though it was Easter, I gladly accepted. We get behind 4-0 early, make a come back and cut it to 4-3, and as soon as Coffey gives up a home run to Eldred, people in the section I was sitting in start to file out of the stadium.

We were down 2 runs going into the bottom of the 8th, and several people were going home. I know it's Easter, and I know it's cold, but for pity's sake, don't show up at all if you're going to leave in a situation like that. It's frustrating, but if the team ever starts to consistently win again, these same fans will be the ones selling out games, throwing money into red apparel, etc. etc.

The bottom line is this team has to win... and the Reds haven't been very good at the bottom line for several years now.

bucksfan2
04-09-2007, 02:54 PM
Yep...there were:

14k at the Easter Reds game
16,308 at the Easter Marlins game
13k at the Easter KC game

36k at the Easter Houston game
47k at the Easter Yankee game

I guess Easter is more of a "small-market" holiday? I'm so sick of the excuses for Cincy's attendance woes. If it's not one thing, it's another.

Lets not compare the reds to the Yankees. They reds would have drawn more for this sunday game but the weather kept a lot of fans away. I am not going to go down the staduim even with free tickets to freeze my a** off. The fact that Milton was pitching didn't add to the appeal any either.

I agree with the poster above that Linder ruined the reds. Marge loved the reds and it was her passion. She was willing to spend and only really cared if the major league team was successful or not. Then Linder comes in and has a new stadium being built. He never manages the club with passion. He continues to manage the club as a buisness. Keeps fan favorites around because of fan approval instead of trying to helping the club win. He had a financial guy (John Allen) making baseball decisions and when ticket sales were lacking he went out and signed Milton. Use the bengals for a case study on attendance. Fans started coming back to the bengals when the team started to show some promise. Yes the reds were in the race last year but with a few weeks to go I didn't feel like they were playing like they were in the mix of things.

If the reds have a good year this year. Stay competitive throughout the season, maybe even eclipse the 81 win barrier they will see a bump in attendance not only this year but next year.

edabbs44
04-09-2007, 03:15 PM
Lets not compare the reds to the Yankees. They reds would have drawn more for this sunday game but the weather kept a lot of fans away. I am not going to go down the staduim even with free tickets to freeze my a** off. The fact that Milton was pitching didn't add to the appeal any either.

OK:

Houston had 36k.
Atlanta had 24k.
SF had 39k.
SD had 27k.
Milwaukee had 28k.

Doesn't seem like Peter Rabbit made an appearance in these cities either.

No excuses...and your attitude about attending games seems to be the norm for Cincinnati. It has to be a perfect storm of things for people to attend games:

1) Temp must be 75 degrees or higher.
2) School must be out.
3) Reds must have been 10 games above .500 in previous year.
4) Reds must currently be 10 games above .500 in current year.

Give me a break.

bucksfan2
04-09-2007, 03:31 PM
OK:

Houston had 36k.
Atlanta had 24k.
SF had 39k.
SD had 27k.
Milwaukee had 28k.

Doesn't seem like Peter Rabbit made an appearance in these cities either.

No excuses...and your attitude about attending games seems to be the norm for Cincinnati. It has to be a perfect storm of things for people to attend games:

1) Temp must be 75 degrees or higher.
2) School must be out.
3) Reds must have been 10 games above .500 in previous year.
4) Reds must currently be 10 games above .500 in current year.

Give me a break.

4 out of those 5 cities didn't have below freezing temperatures and the one that did plays in a dome. Call me what you will I am not going to go to a game when the temperature is that cold. If its a playoff game then thats another story but a game in which the temperature hovers around freezing being played against the pirates just doesn't sound like fun.

edabbs44
04-09-2007, 03:37 PM
4 out of those 5 cities didn't have below freezing temperatures and the one that did plays in a dome. Call me what you will I am not going to go to a game when the temperature is that cold. If its a playoff game then thats another story but a game in which the temperature hovers around freezing being played against the pirates just doesn't sound like fun.

If I'm not mistaken, those attendance figures are the paid attendance figures, not actual. So those include all tickets sold whether you go or not. So unless the city of Cincinnati has a really accurate Farmer's Almanac or a really good crystal ball, then they would have had no idea what the temperature was going to be. If it was 80 degrees I bet they wouldn't have broken 17k.

I was also rebutting the "Easter" excuse from before, not really the temperature thing.

GOREDSGO32
04-09-2007, 04:51 PM
I'll add another comment - the cold part of it is just an excuse of fair weather fans not to come. These fans probably like the team, but aren't really hardcore about them. I remember UL's last football home game - in our greatest season ever this year, finished 12-1 and won the Orange Bowl ... our stadium only holds about 42,000 right now, but the final UCONN game, while all the tickets were sold technically .. about 38,000 fans showed up because they didn't want to be in the cold against a fairly unattractive opponent in a game that was a formality, even though it was the seniors last game ever in UL's most successful season ever.

Part of it is the fanbase, another part of it is the city - and the city is a big part of it for this reason: I think every fanbase has this dedicated group, much larger percentage in some places than other - but a lot of the real demand comes from the large cities having a diverse type of people that would go see games just casually even if they really aren't into baseball, just as more of a ngiht out or day out kinda thing - plus in the larger cities - mainly those with other MLB cities nearby, you will get a whole heck of a lot of holdover people from other fanbases to watch their team play on the opponents home place. The Boston-NY Yanks/Mets-Baltimore-Philly-Washington area is not only pretty big cities - but it is a lot of cities in a very small amount of space so there's a lot of crossover. Same with the West Coast, a lot of teams in the same state/area .. SD, SF, Oakland, both LA's.

Then you have like Cincy, which the closest team is what, way out near STL or something? STL is a lot closer to Chicago and other teams .. it seems the Reds are at a disadvantage there ... no opponent fans crossover really.

Yachtzee
04-09-2007, 09:29 PM
Attendance will pick up if the Reds do two things:

1. Put a consistently competitive ballclub on the field.
2. Hire a marketing department willing go the extra mile to find new opportunities to attract fans.

GoGoWhiteSox
04-09-2007, 10:02 PM
In my "History of the National League" book that came out in 1948 the Cubs chapter devotes a good amount of praise to the fans that that come out to enjoy the "Friendly Confines" and goes on to say that even bad teams do good in Chicago.

That's almost 60 years ago and it still applies.
I doubt that they drew as many people as they do now, but they have a more passionate fan base (in a big city, no less). You cannot deny though, the fact that having their games regularly broadcasted on WGN extended their fan base tenfold. When WGN went national, more people got to see for themselves on television what a historic park Wrigley was. Having a media outlet as your former owner helps too.

Bad teams do good in Chicago? I know that you got that out of your book, but that only applies in the case of the Cubs and Bears nowadays...

westofyou
04-09-2007, 10:31 PM
I doubt that they drew as many people as they do now

No, but they were the top draw in the NL back in the day, plus they were the first team to top a million in the NL.

edabbs44
04-09-2007, 11:54 PM
Attendance will pick up if the Reds do two things:

1. Put a consistently competitive ballclub on the field.
2. Hire a marketing department willing go the extra mile to find new opportunities to attract fans.

If attendance picks up (and therefore, more revenue flows in), the Reds will have a better chance of putting a consistently competitive ballclub on the field.

See the problem?

Yachtzee
04-10-2007, 12:46 AM
If attendance picks up (and therefore, more revenue flows in), the Reds will have a better chance of putting a consistently competitive ballclub on the field.

See the problem?

It's a chicken and egg argument for sure. That's why it's important to think "outside the box" a bit for a small-market team. The Reds absolutely must get better at identifying talent and developing it within their system. And they must be very good at identifying talent in other systems to ensure they get value in trades. But they must also get better at identifying and fully exploiting all available revenue streams and give the team maximum exposure to generate fan interest. The days of the "if you build it, they will come" marketing plan are long since past. There is just way too much competition for disposable income these days for the Reds to assume that a win streak is going to get people down to the park.

The past two ownership regimes have done a lot to destroy both aspects of generating fan interest. Marge destroyed the team's ability to identify and develop talent, and then after the strike engaged in behavior that seemed more likely to drive people away from the game than bring them down. Then Carl Lindner not only failed to address the talent side of the equation, but had people facing the media who had all the charisma of wet cardboard.

The Reds will do well to build a playoff-caliber team. But if they want to build and sustain fan interest, they're going to have to do the leg work on the marketing side to make sure a Reds logo is found in every nook and cranny from Mansfield, OH to Memphis, TN (both part of the Reds market area IIRC).

macro
04-10-2007, 01:05 AM
If attendance picks up (and therefore, more revenue flows in), the Reds will have a better chance of putting a consistently competitive ballclub on the field.

See the problem?

Whether anyone likes it or not, the "competitive ballclub" part will have to come first. Most people are only willing to plunk down their dollars for what they see or have seen, not for what they hope they might see.

We can talk about being fans and supporting the team all we want, but the reality is that baseball is a business, and always has been. We never say "Lets eat at that mediocre restaurant every night and support them so that they can invest in better-quality food". Any sports franchise that puts the onus on its customers to take the up-front financial risk involved with producing a winner (rather than taking that up-front risk themselves) has it backwards, and most likely won't succeed.

Brutus_the_Red
04-10-2007, 02:01 AM
As an avid red's fan who lives in dayton, i know this is my problem.

I work in downtown dayton, and I get out of there at 5:30pm. Now, if I haul it down to cinci (which i try to do about 6-10 times a year), i generally grab some outfield seats and make it there during the first inning. its nice, but suddenly, i have to eat something at the park, tank of gas, couple of drinks, peanuts, and parking and an after work game turns into $60. its not a huge deal, but by the time i get back to dayton at 12:30 - 1:30 depending on traffic, i'm usually dog tired and questioning why i did it all in the first place.

if they win, i'm usually pretty happy. but if they lose the way they've lost the last few years by putting a farce of a team out there, you can get pretty upset.

now, let me compare that to what is now offered in dayton...

i can get out of work at 5:30. grab something to eat at Uno's, Flying Pizza or whatever they're cooking at the courthouse. stroll around riverscape for a while. maybe stop into the southern belle for a brew. grab a ticket to the dragons game and some peanuts. i can have my butt parked out in the grass or in my seat before the national anthem starts. i can catch the whole game, and if they win, its great. if they don't win, then atleast i've seen first hand the talent in the pipeline for the club. i head back over to the belle for a post-game brew, and i'm home in time for the late news.


it's the choice the red's made by putting minor league affiliates in their major secondary markets, dayton and louisville. its quicker, cheaper, and less stressful to stay in dayton and catch what, for the last few years at least, has been a much more enjoyable experience than what's offered south of town....

Yachtzee
04-10-2007, 10:19 AM
it's the choice the red's made by putting minor league affiliates in their major secondary markets, dayton and louisville. its quicker, cheaper, and less stressful to stay in dayton and catch what, for the last few years at least, has been a much more enjoyable experience than what's offered south of town....

I don't think that's a problem as much as folks like to think. Cleveland, whose market really isn't that much bigger than Cincinnati, has their AA ballclub in Akron, an A ballclub in the eastern suburbs of Cleveland, a short-season club in the Youngstown area, and their AAA ballclub a few hours up the road in Buffalo. They've had the Akron team there for quite a while and it doesn't seem to affect them at the gate. Akron is only about a 30 minute drive from Cleveland and the team draws really well. The key is that the Indians do an excellent job of identifying and developing talent. Every year Akron loses a ton of players and every year they are in contention for the Eastern League championship. When the Major League club goes through a few rough years, there's hope because everyone knows they've got a lot of good talent in the pipeline.

I would argue that having a good system with your minor league teams close by can actually grow interest in the club by a significant amount. A big complaint about the free agent era is that players don't stick around long enough for fans to get to know them. But with minor league teams nearby, people in Dayton and Louisville can get to know some of the hot young talent as they climb the ladder. Instead of hearing about this guy as a rookie with the Reds, people know him from his days with the Dragons and the Bats. When they hit the bigs, folks from Dayton and Louisville might be more willing to make the trip to Cincinnati because they've bonded with these guys. By the time these guys reach free agency, it seems like they've been with the organization forever. The problem is that Cincinnati just hasn't had enough talent in the pipeline for Dayton and Louisville folks to get excited about.

Brutus_the_Red
04-10-2007, 02:34 PM
I don't think that's a problem as much as folks like to think. Cleveland, whose market really isn't that much bigger than Cincinnati, has their AA ballclub in Akron, an A ballclub in the eastern suburbs of Cleveland, a short-season club in the Youngstown area, and their AAA ballclub a few hours up the road in Buffalo. They've had the Akron team there for quite a while and it doesn't seem to affect them at the gate. Akron is only about a 30 minute drive from Cleveland and the team draws really well. The key is that the Indians do an excellent job of identifying and developing talent. Every year Akron loses a ton of players and every year they are in contention for the Eastern League championship. When the Major League club goes through a few rough years, there's hope because everyone knows they've got a lot of good talent in the pipeline.

I would argue that having a good system with your minor league teams close by can actually grow interest in the club by a significant amount. A big complaint about the free agent era is that players don't stick around long enough for fans to get to know them. But with minor league teams nearby, people in Dayton and Louisville can get to know some of the hot young talent as they climb the ladder. Instead of hearing about this guy as a rookie with the Reds, people know him from his days with the Dragons and the Bats. When they hit the bigs, folks from Dayton and Louisville might be more willing to make the trip to Cincinnati because they've bonded with these guys. By the time these guys reach free agency, it seems like they've been with the organization forever. The problem is that Cincinnati just hasn't had enough talent in the pipeline for Dayton and Louisville folks to get excited about.


but its not just the teams themselves. its the entire atmosphere. I think both Dayton and Louisville have had awesome numbers at the gates these past few years because they and the city have given their workers a reason to stay downtown during that no-man's land from 5 - 7pm. There's food, there's bars, there's parks. There is a plethora of cheap entertainment to make that decision of "hey, i'm going to stay downtown and catch a game tonight" that much more worth it.

i think that's the achilles heel for cincinnati right now. there's nothing to keep your downtown workers in the area after business hours. Sure, they can go over to covington and newport, but once you're in your car, its real hard to come back to the area you work in.

cincinnati needs to find a way to keep those workers from getting in their cars. maybe that's the gateway project, who knows? but there needs to be something there. sometimes it takes more than a ballgame to keep people downtown.

vic715
04-10-2007, 05:39 PM
They should have built the ballpark in Middlletown!

Maybe not Middletown but up around Kings Island.Now that is about 20 miles outside the city limits but how many fans actually live right in the city limits. I also have relatives in the Cincy area who will no longer go downtown to the ballpark because of the crime situation down there.I'm not saying anyones going to encounter a problem but who knows.And I'm quite certain the price of tickets these days keep the average fan at a minimum.
just an opinion.

REDREAD
04-11-2007, 01:22 PM
I have to disagree a bit here. Fans in Cincy want the Reds in the playoffs and they were in the hunt until the last few weeks of the season. That was indeed something to be excited about.

Now if you're saying that people won't get excited UNTIL they make the playoffs, that's a completely different group of fans. There will always be fans that will be negative and expect the worst. They will likely never be excited about the team no matter what.

The problem is that most people make their summer plans in spring. When the Reds trot out a mediocre, sub 500 team for 5 or 6 years straight, you just can't expect much enthusiasm from the fan base.

Yes, the Reds stayed close last year, due to everyone else's mediocrity. I admit, it was funner than in years past, but the quality of the team, particularly in the last 6 weeks wasn't that good.

When the team becomes so desparate that it is giving Mays, Michilek, etc starts, it's really hard to see it as a contender. That (along with the sub 500 record) kept me away.. IIRC, after a great April the Reds had a pretty poor record. Hard to blame the fans for not getting that excited.

It was great for Cast to have those discount nights though. Great marketing by the Reds for a change. I'm sure he built a lot of goodwill with the fans for that. I was impressed as well.

REDREAD
04-11-2007, 01:32 PM
If attendance picks up (and therefore, more revenue flows in), the Reds will have a better chance of putting a consistently competitive ballclub on the field.

See the problem?

Look at what St Louis has done in the last 15 years or so.

When they got their big attendence boost from McGwire, they used the extra revenue to build a winner.

When Carl got record attendence from Jr, what did he do? Cut the payroll and punt 1st round draft picks.

When the Reds got their new ballpark, and another revenue boost, Allen couldn't wait to gut the payroll again, despite many lean years when fans held on to the "promise of 2003".

Lindner and Allen permanently alienated a lot of fans. They had the revenue to do better. Instead, you have Allen fussing over adding about 1 million in salary to pick up Guzman during the 1999 pennant race. You have Allen ordering the interim GMs to get cash instead of talent for players during the 2003 fire sale. Cincy fans aren't dumb.

Cast might be better, it's too soon to tell, IMO. I'm willing to give him a chance, but if his idea of fixing this team is to bring in Alex Gonzales and Stanton, I'm not going to make the trip down this year. It's not like my ticket sales are going to make or break the franchise, but I imagine other people feel the same way.

Many fans feel jilted by the Reds (thanks to Allen/Lindner), so the Reds need to win them back.

Maybe I'm not a true Reds fan for taking my family to the Jake instead, but IMO, it's better entertainment.

Z-Fly
04-11-2007, 02:00 PM
I have been to about 20 games a year or more since I could drive. Already 3 this year. I notice a funny trend in the attendence numbers. If they are in first place a lot of people come. If they are in last very few people come, unless it is bobble head day.

Any one else notice this?

Z-Fly
04-11-2007, 02:02 PM
Maybe not Middletown but up around Kings Island.Now that is about 20 miles outside the city limits but how many fans actually live right in the city limits. I also have relatives in the Cincy area who will no longer go downtown to the ballpark because of the crime situation down there.I'm not saying anyones going to encounter a problem but who knows.And I'm quite certain the price of tickets these days keep the average fan at a minimum.
just an opinion.

Would have been hard to do since Hamilton county paid for the stadium. Always have to think about the $$ involved. Also I would hate to have a ball park away from the river.

westofyou
04-11-2007, 02:11 PM
Dewitt wanted to build a stadium up by where Kings Island is, but the city wanted to "revitalize downtown" and yet still folks outside of 275 are afraid of downtown 40 years later, even with another new park.

The Reds fans go to winners, that's about it. they only topped 1 million at Crosley 3 times in all the years there, they drew 2 million plus from 73-80 and except for 1989 from 87-93.

What has soured Reds fans in the past?

Losing?

Example even found during the BRM era. 1971 the Reds had a new stadium and had a bad season, attendance dropped 300K.

Jpup
04-11-2007, 02:33 PM
I just can't imagine living in Cincinnati or any other Major League city and not going to nearly every single home game. If I lived closer I would have season tickets. It's just so hard for me to believe that more young folks don't go to the games. We would kill for something like that in this area.

I went to the game on Saturday which had been moved up and I didn't find out until about 2:30 in the morning on Saturday while watching the replay of Friday's game. I slept about 3 hours and drove 3 hours up there and then 3 hours back. I spent 6 hours and the ballpark with the game and the Hall of Fame, which was very cool. It was cold, but not cold enough for me to stay home. I would think that people that lived closer would want to make the trip as well.

I guess that I love baseball more than most folks. :)

BRM
04-11-2007, 03:47 PM
I just can't imagine living in Cincinnati or any other Major League city and not going to nearly every single home game. If I lived closer I would have season tickets. It's just so hard for me to believe that more young folks don't go to the games. We would kill for something like that in this area.

I went to the game on Saturday which had been moved up and I didn't find out until about 2:30 in the morning on Saturday while watching the replay of Friday's game. I slept about 3 hours and drove 3 hours up there and then 3 hours back. I spent 6 hours and the ballpark with the game and the Hall of Fame, which was very cool. It was cold, but not cold enough for me to stay home. I would think that people that lived closer would want to make the trip as well.

I guess that I love baseball more than most folks. :)

For some it's more a matter of $$$ than apathy or love of the game. Lots of families love baseball but can only afford to attend a few games per year. Doesn't mean they love the game any less than someone who buys season tickets.

Jpup
04-11-2007, 03:50 PM
For some it's more a matter of $$$ than apathy or love of the game. Lots of families love baseball but can only afford to attend a few games per year. Doesn't mean they love the game any less than someone who buys season tickets.

Oh, I understand that. I just think that a lot of people in my situation have a lot of other things they would rather be doing instead of going to baseball games. I know that people with kids and low income would have a hard time going, but there are a lot of people that have the means, but still won't go. I just don't understand that.

Always Red
04-11-2007, 05:06 PM
For the record, there were 19,031 folks at the Indians-Angels game.

In Milwaukee.

just saying... I was at Reds games in August last year, while they were in the pennant race, with less folks in the stands.

Yachtzee
04-11-2007, 05:13 PM
For the record, there were 19,031 folks at the Indians-Angels game.

In Milwaukee.

just saying... I was at Reds games in August last year, while they were in the pennant race, with less folks in the stands.

And they got prime seats for only $10!

Always Red
04-11-2007, 05:27 PM
And they got prime seats for only $10!

Cast was nearly giving them away last summer, to no avail.

Aronchis
04-11-2007, 06:27 PM
"The past two ownership regimes have done a lot to destroy both aspects of generating fan interest. Marge destroyed the team's ability to identify and develop talent, and then after the strike engaged in behavior that seemed more likely to drive people away from the game than bring them down. Then Carl Lindner not only failed to address the talent side of the equation, but had people facing the media who had all the charisma of wet cardboard".

You mean the past "one" ownership regime. Marge Schott was pretty much meaningless her last several years while the Limiteds pretty much ran everything. Besides Schott was the beginning of the decline of the Reds internal infrastructure which the Limiteds had to take some blame as well.

Carl Lindner was nothing more than a lackey for the Limited Partner rule and actually is pretty meaningless to Reds history. I would hardly call it cynical, but a "ecotone" era. What they really wanted to do was cashout with the new stadium and the Griffey deal was part of that plan. But problems came about:
1.Bowden was not a man to rebuild the internals of the Reds organization
2.The money from the new stadium wouldn't kick fully in for a couple of years and going into debt for a one year run would cost several millions in profit they were hoping to make from the new stadium
3.Griffey had already peaked physically and had begun encountering injury problems.

That left a mess of a organization by 2003, the original final year. So they waited it out and ordered Lindner/Allen to hire another GM to improve the product. But the terms of hire were not to attractive. Alot of the Reds organizational "dinosaurs"(which Krivsky got into trouble for ousting) were to be kept in place and the new GM work within the existing structure. Of course Krivsky who would have raised hell and probably caused a bit of a ruckus was dismissed and Dan O'brien, who badly wanted to get back into the "decision" making processes again after being bounded to a desk for years in Texas happily took the position.

But O'brien was another problem. One, he and his main advisor, Dean Taylor, made some poor trades and moves while they tried to build up the product(Reitsma for Nelson for example was supposed to net the Reds a starting pitcher in 2005.........we know how that turned out). Obviously Taylor was a big reason for this flop, but O'brien hired him and must take the blame. Another problem O'brien gave the Limited partners was his obsession with the scouting and developmental processes. He seriously got off on it and would have taken 5-6 straight losing seasons while he hand developed a home grown team. But those processes don't equate producing a winning team in 2004 or beyond. The yelling matches between O'brien and Renyolds for the June draft must have been fun to listen to. O'brien's public releases of leaving the draft "to Terry" was a farce. O'brien badly wanted control of the draft and he hired Terry Renyolds because of desire a "counter balance" to his cowboy style of drafting FWIW. For the Limiteds, the 2004 draft must have been painfull. While Renyoldesque picks on the offensive side(where the Reds didn't need much talent) were evident, the pitching side(where the Reds needed alot of help and quick) was pure Dan O'brien. While the yelling matches were going on, who to take number 1 in 2004 was the first priority and considering the long time it took them to make the pick, O'brien overruled everybody and made Bailey the pick. That didn't sit well with the establishment which was under pressure to win quickly and O'brien who was already panned for his bad Reitsma trade, was further decried(it didn't help that the Reds used the rest of the top 10 on 3 more raw HS pitchers). The 2005 draft saw a more toned down process where Renyolds got more college arms into the mix(Lecure is a classic Renyolds pick, Wood Dan O'brien).

So the 2004 draft wasn't going to help out the Limiteds cash out with a winner. But by 2005 GAB was starting to provide a better cash flow and payroll was lifted to the highest in Reds history(small to bigger market teams however) even though the team and franchise weer in turmoil. Dan O'brien was given the assignment of using the extra money to enhance the pitching staff to go with the offense. Well, we know how this turned out and it had completely blown up by the end of April. By that time the Limited partners cried uncle and decided to fly the coup. They were sold and O'brien was fired much to his surprise. O'brien's firing, while post-Limiteds is actually ironic, because Cast based the firing on the "establishments" anger toward Dan of basically cutting them off from the scouting/developmental side of things for 2 years. They also helped get Krivsky the job, which is why they were spitting fire when he fired them. Ouch!!!!;) .

Hence, you have the state of current Reds baseball. Its near future depends on how some of Dan O'briens "experiments"(Bailey for starters) turned out with the 2004 and 2005 drafts plus his intense efforts to rebuild the Latino talent pipeline during those years as well(Cueto and Fransico are two of those products among some others that will arrive later. Krivsky has expanded the International scouting to worldwide now with Cast which Dan had been attempting unsuccessively to do with the Limiteds).

Note: Most of what I wrote is just "rumormill" type stuff I got from a friend of mine that works in sales for the Reds. This is a basic rough draft and has been filtered down through the levels, but this is basically the inside skinny he was told. Take it with a grain of salt, as only half of it I have seen confirmed.

Chip R
04-11-2007, 06:38 PM
The yelling matches between O'brien and Renyolds for the June draft must have been fun to listen to.


I can't imagine DanO yelling at anyone.

Ltlabner
04-11-2007, 06:40 PM
I can't imagine DanO yelling at anyone.

I hear that when DanO gets really, really mad, he speaks in short, clipped sentences. They are only around 67 or 68 words long instead of the normal length.

westofyou
04-11-2007, 06:43 PM
http://www.deadballart.com/redszone/snow.jpg

Roy Tucker
04-11-2007, 06:47 PM
I hear that when DanO gets really, really mad, he speaks in short, clipped sentences. They are only around 67 or 68 words long instead of the normal length.

And starts throwing binders around the room.

(about the only thing I miss about DanO is not being able to make binder jokes any more)

KittyDuran
04-11-2007, 08:03 PM
As an avid red's fan who lives in dayton, i know this is my problem.

I work in downtown dayton, and I get out of there at 5:30pm. Now, if I haul it down to cinci (which i try to do about 6-10 times a year), i generally grab some outfield seats and make it there during the first inning. its nice, but suddenly, i have to eat something at the park, tank of gas, couple of drinks, peanuts, and parking and an after work game turns into $60. its not a huge deal, but by the time i get back to dayton at 12:30 - 1:30 depending on traffic, i'm usually dog tired and questioning why i did it all in the first place.

if they win, i'm usually pretty happy. but if they lose the way they've lost the last few years by putting a farce of a team out there, you can get pretty upset.

now, let me compare that to what is now offered in dayton...

i can get out of work at 5:30. grab something to eat at Uno's, Flying Pizza or whatever they're cooking at the courthouse. stroll around riverscape for a while. maybe stop into the southern belle for a brew. grab a ticket to the dragons game and some peanuts. i can have my butt parked out in the grass or in my seat before the national anthem starts. i can catch the whole game, and if they win, its great. if they don't win, then atleast i've seen first hand the talent in the pipeline for the club. i head back over to the belle for a post-game brew, and i'm home in time for the late news.


it's the choice the red's made by putting minor league affiliates in their major secondary markets, dayton and louisville. its quicker, cheaper, and less stressful to stay in dayton and catch what, for the last few years at least, has been a much more enjoyable experience than what's offered south of town....No need to apologize...If I were like you and lived farther than 30 miles from GABP but closer to an minor league affiliate (like Dayton) I would rarely go to a major league game - mostly because the time it takes me now to get home from a game. If the Reds game ends around 10pm- it can take me 15-25 minutes to get to the car. Then its 45 minutes to an hour depending on traffic to get home. So I usually get to bed around midnight. Which is fine when it's Friday or Saturday night - but on the weeknights I have to get up at 5:00-5:30am and try to get to the car by 7am to make it to work by 8am. Whew!

Now I do go to both Reds and Dragons games (will be at 5/3rd Field this Friday and Saturday).

I live 30 miles/work 20 miles from GABP but 45 miles/work 35 miles from 5/3rd Field. Even though there is a 15 mile difference I get home faster from a Dragons game because the games are usually shorter and it's easier to get out of the park/downtown (less people attending). Never been to a Dragons game... here's my take on the experience:

Pros: Less expensive (food, parking, tickets), more family friendly, not a bad seat in the house, you do not need a ticket to see the game (just look through the fence), food (IMHO) is better (just like Brutus going to Reds games I don't have time to go to local establishments for food-so Iím stuck at the park if I get hungry), Coke products (personal fav), get to see young talent in the Reds organization, faithful fans, and a PR department thatís top shelf.

Cons: Tough to get more than 1 ticket together in the seats (lawn is OK), IT IS minor league baseball-low A ball to be exact-so the quality of play is lower, maybe too family friendly for fans who just want to watch a ballgame, cannot bring bottled water or food into park, and merchandise (logo'd) is more expensive-but great looking.

TeamBoone
04-11-2007, 08:25 PM
The D-Backs second home game drew a bit over 17,000 fans in their cozy warm park. The Reds drew over 25,000 in their second and third games which were played in the bitter cold.

vaticanplum
04-11-2007, 08:30 PM
Maybe not Middletown but up around Kings Island.Now that is about 20 miles outside the city limits but how many fans actually live right in the city limits. I also have relatives in the Cincy area who will no longer go downtown to the ballpark because of the crime situation down there.I'm not saying anyones going to encounter a problem but who knows.And I'm quite certain the price of tickets these days keep the average fan at a minimum.
just an opinion.

No offense, I don't know your relatives, but if the "high prices" and "crime" around GABP are keeping them away, then they'd be very unlikely to attend a major league baseball game in any city. The Reds are one of the cheapest teams in baseball to see and I can recall exactly 0 instances of crime occuring relative to ballpark attendees at GABP, ever. Cellular Field in Chicago is, unlike GABP, actually in a very bad neighborhood, and there's almost no crime at the stadium there either because people tend to arrive and depart the games in very large crowds. There is pretty ample parking around GABP and you'd have to work pretty hard to find yourself alone within a couple-hour window either way of any game.

I respect their decision, but honestly this are not the demographic to which the Reds can afford to pander. At a certain point you have to draw a line; you cannot charge $2 for a seat and then hire out the Cincinnati police force to surround the stadium. They have to try to market to people who are at least somewhat willing to go to a game.

I'm of the extremely strong opinion that major league baseball teams belong in cities. I think it's a mistake to believe that an MLB team alone can revitalize a city; if there's nothing around the stadium to do, people are going to turn right around after the game and leave the stadium (duh). In the end this will end up hurting the team as it's more of a chore to head out for one thing rather than a whole afternoon of fun or whatever. Add to that the problem that most of downtown, particularly the area around the ballpark, is not a residential area; it's nobody's hood, so everybody's traveling to get there. Nevertheless, done well, a good ballpark/team, in concordance with other things, can help energize a city. The Reds have a great chance to do this, given the amount of land close to the stadium. I do think one thing they should do IMMEDIATELY is to get better public transportation going specifically for games. Lots of cities have this, and in many it's free. That, more than lower ticket prices or a "safer" location, would get a good handful more people in right away, especially on the weekends.

It's just where they belong. There's not a stadium in baseball in a suburb, is there? First of all, I think people tend to forget about the year-round, daily operation of the Reds, ie. the business side. as ghosty as downtown Cincinnati is, it's still the hub of most of the businesses with which the Reds themselves must interact. It's not just the ballpark that's downtown; it's the offices too. Their legal counsel, printing people etc. are all downtown. There's the convenience side of things: traveling teams should be given the convenience of being in the hub of the city, near the airport. And I'm of the opinion that moving a ballpark out to the suburbs would not affect attendance all that strongly. These people in the suburbs such as Mason are largely the people who can afford to go to the ballpark. They have the money for the tickets and the transportation to get there. If they're not going downtown, it's because the team is losing. If it starts winning, they'll be right there in full reds regalia. So again we're back to what is always the major draw.

Yachtzee
04-11-2007, 10:42 PM
Yeah, I don't buy the crime argument myself. Every city has crime. Maybe some of that rep is from old-timers reminiscing about the days of Crosley field when you had to pay the local hoods protection money to make sure your tires didn't get slashed. However, if someone is afraid of downtown Cincinnati, then they've never been to the south side of Chicago, Detroit (at least for Tigers Stadium), or the Bronx for a night game during the week. You don't want to dawdle getting out of the stadium in those places.

Ltlabner
04-12-2007, 09:18 AM
Yeah, I don't buy the crime argument myself. Every city has crime. Maybe some of that rep is from old-timers reminiscing....

Or maybe, just maybe, it has something to do with record years of murders and nightly reports of violent crimes in the "downtown" area?

So there's been "zero" crimes ever comitted at or around GABP? That's dandy. But very few people think of downtown as "this 4 block area is safe. That 3 block area is unsafe. Over there is bad. Right on this spot I am standing is safe". People think downtown and they think GABP, fountain square area, OTR, West End, Queensgate Area, etc etc. Not just the technical definition of "downtown". They lump the whole area together.

The real reason for the apathy is losing. Plain and simple. Because of the small metro area, the Reds can't count on filling the stadium every night with folks making their once per year trip to the ballpark like the Yanks or Cubs can. They have to win and give the fans a reason to come to GABP instead of going to KI, IMAX, The Beach, Wolf Lake Lodge, Cedar Point, Riverbend, etc etc.

Losing is the #1 reason. The crime issues and lack of anything else to do around the ballpark are secondary issues.

Ltlabner
04-12-2007, 09:27 AM
First of all, I think people tend to forget about the year-round, daily operation of the Reds, ie. the business side. as ghosty as downtown Cincinnati is, it's still the hub of most of the businesses with which the Reds themselves must interact. It's not just the ballpark that's downtown; it's the offices too. Their legal counsel, printing people etc. are all downtown.

I agree with you that stadiums should be in downtown areas, but this is one of the weaker points of your argument.

With the advent of cell phones, email, conference calls, internet conference, not to mention cars, the location of their legal staff, printing people, etc is largley irrlevant. So proximity to vendors/suppliers should have little impact on the location of the stadium.

REDREAD
04-12-2007, 01:20 PM
I agree with you that stadiums should be in downtown areas, but this is one of the weaker points of your argument.

With the advent of cell phones, email, conference calls, internet conference, not to mention cars, the location of their legal staff, printing people, etc is largley irrlevant. So proximity to vendors/suppliers should have little impact on the location of the stadium.


Yes, and also there's no reason why Allen and the other beaurcrats doing the business side of the team HAVE to have offices in the ballpeark.

Obviously, the GM and the other personnel that interact with the players on a daily basis need to be close to the stadium, but the guy in charge of the printing, legal, etc doesn't have to have an office in the stadium.

Reds/Flyers Fan
04-12-2007, 01:54 PM
[CODE]


BTW Kudos to the Post for abbreviating Oregon "Ore" what's up with that?

"Ore." is the accepted Associated Press style abbreviation for Oregon. And since Portland is a city that, by the AP standards which the Post follows, cannot stand alone like Cincinnati, Denver, Los Angeles and others, it requires the Ore.

Jim
04-12-2007, 03:02 PM
This year... bone chillin' COLD for the first week after OD. We'll see if the attendance breaks 12K each game this weekend...:p:

Living in Chicago, I do not have many chances to attend games in Cincy. However, the nasty weather so far is definitely a factor and would be for me if I was in town. A month from now, when the "boys of SUMMER" are playing, there's little excuse for poor attendance.

vaticanplum
04-12-2007, 07:47 PM
Yes, and also there's no reason why Allen and the other beaurcrats doing the business side of the team HAVE to have offices in the ballpeark.

Obviously, the GM and the other personnel that interact with the players on a daily basis need to be close to the stadium, but the guy in charge of the printing, legal, etc doesn't have to have an office in the stadium.

That's not what I said. The people they interact with -- the OUTSOURCED legal counsel etc. -- are in offices downtown, not at the stadium. And yes, close proximity is important. There are courier runs and lunches quite often. The Community Fund has offices at the ballpark and they interact with hundreds of businesses in the Cincinnati area. I even imagine it makes a difference being close to the press, such as the Enquirer.

It's not reason alone to keep the ballpark downtown, no (it's a reason added to dozens of others). But the daily workings of the front office have more straight-up downtown business interaction than I think a lot of people realize.

Ltlabner
04-12-2007, 09:11 PM
That's not what I said. The people they interact with -- the OUTSOURCED legal counsel etc. -- are in offices downtown, not at the stadium. And yes, close proximity is important. There are courier runs and lunches quite often. The Community Fund has offices at the ballpark and they interact with hundreds of businesses in the Cincinnati area. I even imagine it makes a difference being close to the press, such as the Enquirer.

I know this is a very minor part of your argument for stadiums in downtowns (one I agree with btw) but these statements make the case that no business takes place outside of city limits. Protor and Gamble has facilities all over the city (Blue Ash, Mason, Ivorydale) along with downtown. They don't have lawyers? They don't need printing done? They don't have conferences? Yet, somehow, they make it all happen. Actually the business model of having a downtown headquarters is outdated and old school thinking: all of the support vendors needed for a large business can be found just about anywhere.