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M2
04-08-2007, 08:32 PM
... then for the first time in my life I won't be rooting for the Reds to win that game. I won't be rooting for the opposition either. I just won't care who wins. Not once in 35 years have I had that attitude about the team, but if the club is going to put that pathetic excuse for a pitcher on the mound then I don't see where I should have to root for the team on that day.

I had other things going on this weekend so I didn't see today's game. I didn't even know Milton was getting the start, but when I checked the box score my reaction was "Well, they deserved to lose that game." No sting from the loss. No "I wish they'd have won" regret. No feeling whatsoever. The Reds have finally found something so off-putting, so completely stupid that I'm past caring about it or them when they do it.

You hear that Lucy? You can stick that football in your rear, because I'm not kicking it.

vaticanplum
04-08-2007, 08:38 PM
I can't say I would be rooting for the Reds to lose...but apart from that semantic detail, I am right there with you. I know that I will be closer to rooting against the Reds than I will ever be in my life.

Eric Milton is like a monkey on my back, except that he's also carrying five two-ton weights and all the banana trees of the animal kingdom with him.

Cyclone792
04-08-2007, 08:49 PM
Sadly, I've taken a similar attitude toward any games in which Milton is starting.

In fact, living in Cincinnati and attending several Reds games each season - I only went to 41 games last season - I've already decided that I have little to no plans on ever attending any game that Eric Milton ever starts. It's my own little way to send a message to the Reds that they need to pink slip the guy if they're serious about winning. The only exception may be a nice Friday night game since that's by far the most convenient night for me to attend a game, or if I've already committed the money for tickets in advance (though that doesn't happen often). But other than those rare exceptions, you won't find me in the seats during a Milton start.

Funny thing ... last week I circled today's game on the calendar as a possible game to actually attend. The cold weather is an an annoyance, but it's something I'll tolerate to watch good Reds baseball. A couple buddies and I attended Friday night's game in the stinging cold, and we had the pleasure of watching Matt Belisle pitch one heck of a game. I didn't have one problem sitting in mid 20s wind chills to watch Belisle do what he did Friday night, and I'd have no problem doing it again.

But today's game? Once I found out that Milton was starting, my plans for attending today's game went down the toilet. If Milton remains in the rotation in the #5 spot, then it looks like he may be starting the Tuesday, April 17th game at home against Milwaukee. I'd highly consider going to that game under normal circumstances, but if Milton's starting then I'll just simply save my time and money.

He's just not worth it.

jmac
04-08-2007, 08:50 PM
The sad part of it is...I feel sorry for the guy despite what I think of him as a pitcher.
Getting boo'd on opening day, to see him setting in the dugout during the first 5 games. I know the guy is not trying to get shelled and hey...if someone put a 25 million dollar contract in front of me or you, we would more than likely sign it. The guy wasnt worth it when we signed him yet I was expecting an ERA of 4.5-4.8 which we would probably all take right now.
I know Milty is trying because he is thinking of another contract next year.That being said.....I have practically zilch confidence in him throwing a good game unless he pitches against the Nats or in SD.

Falls City Beer
04-08-2007, 08:51 PM
I said it a year ago: running Milton out there like there's nothing wrong is tantamount to giving the fans of Cincinnati a Cleveland Steamer.

I mean, at least post an apology on the Jumbotron.

GAC
04-08-2007, 08:54 PM
I watched the game, and while I can't wait for him to be gone either, he didn't pitch a terrible game today. The game was scoreless until the 4th when Pitt pushed across a run due in large part to Dunn misplaying Eldred's double out of the LF corner that allowed Nady to score from first. Milton got the next two batters out. He gave up the Wilson 2 run homer in the fifth that gave the Pirates a 3-0 lead. But probably 4 of the Pirates hits were of the bloop variety. But he got into the 6th inning, and kept us in the game I thought. I was more upset with Coffey and Coutlangus, who, after we came back to make it a 4-3 ballgame in the 7th, gave up solo shots that pretty much sealed it.

jmac
04-08-2007, 08:57 PM
I watched the game, and while I can't wait for him to be gone either, he didn't pitch a terrible game today. The game was scoreless until the 4th when Pitt pushed across a run due in large part to Dunn misplaying Eldred's double out of the LF corner that allowed Nady to score from first. Milton got the next two batters out. He gave up the Wilson 2 run homer in the fifth that gave the Pirates a 3-0 lead. But probably 4 of the Pirates hits were of the bloop variety. But he got into the 6th inning, and kept us in the game I thought. I was more upset with Coffey and Coutlangus, who, after we came back to make it a 4-3 ballgame in the 7th, gave up solo shots that pretty much sealed it.

As Chris said after the game...that is decent for a 5th starter. Problem is , this will probaly be one of his better starts.

RedFanAlways1966
04-08-2007, 09:00 PM
I know that you didn't see or hear the game, M2. Believe it or not Milton might have escaped with a no decision. With 2 outs in the 6th inning the REDS were down 3-0 with Sanchez coming to bat. The guy was like 13-for-16 in his career against Milton coming into the game. For some reason Narron decided to let Milton pitch. Base hit... 4-0 game. As it ended up the REDS scored 3 in the 7th and made it a 4-3 game. Why Jerry left him in to pitch to Sanchez in that spot is baffling to me.

That doesn't excuse 10 hits in 5.2 IP. It seemed that 8 of the 10 hits were on 2-strike counts too. It is good to get in a favorable count, but bad when you cannot finish a batter when you are in the favorable position. Milton does not seem able to finish a hitter. He did have 6 Ks, but 2 of them were against Zach Duke.

I hope the leash gets shorter each time...

MWM
04-08-2007, 09:01 PM
He gave up 10 hits in less than 6 innings. He also walked a guy. That's 11 baserunners without getting through 6 innings. That's terrible, IMO, no matter how you slice it. He allowed baserunners in every inning he pitched. Just because he didn't give up a lot of runs in the first 4 innings, does not mean he didn't pitch badly. I alowasy look at the sum total of the effort, and his was bad.

guttle11
04-08-2007, 09:02 PM
I can't help but think he's here, no matter what, until Homer is deemed ready around mid to late May. At least I hope it's that early.

Falls City Beer
04-08-2007, 09:02 PM
At what point does having a guy who simply CANNOT go past 5 innings pitched hinder a team? It's an honest question. Milton has a hard-ceiling of about 6 innings, but he'll average about 5 this season (knee getting worse, a year older etc)

GAC
04-08-2007, 09:07 PM
As Chris said after the agme...that is decent for a 5th starter. Problem is , this will probaly be one of his better starts.

I agree. It was excruciating watching Ryan Freel keep trying to make diving catches on those bloop singles. He's lucky that Phillips or Gonzo was there to back him up on those. The guy just loves to impulsively, without thinking sometimes, throw his body all over the field.

But Harang also pitched 5.2 innings on Saturday, and gave up 8 hits and 5 ERs.

reds44
04-08-2007, 09:08 PM
I pray that with the off day Thursday we skip his scheduled start Saturday in Wrigley.

I'm going to be there.

I find it funny that a guy has an outing which lands him a 6.35 ERA and he gives up 10 hits without getting out of the 6th, and it's consider "decent" by some people. That's when you know your expectations are low.

Cyclone792
04-08-2007, 09:09 PM
He gave up 10 hits in less than 6 innings. He also walked a guy. That's 11 baserunners without getting through 6 innings. That's terrible, IMO, no matter how you slice it. He allowed baserunners in every inning he pitched. Just because he didn't give up a lot of runs in the first 4 innings, does not mean he didn't pitch badly. I alowasy look at the sum total of the effort, and his was bad.

Yep, it was a poor pitching effort from any angle, and he was pretty fortunate not to give up more than four runs in those 5.2 innings. He faced 28 batters, giving up 10 hits and a walk, and that's a nice .393 opponents' on-base percentage. And in his 27 opponents' at bats, he gave up one home run, three doubles, and six singles. That's 16 total bases in those 27 at bats, and that's good for a .593 opponents' slugging percentage.

Add it up, and Milton's effort today was a whopping .986 opponents' OPS. If Milton gave up that type of opponents' OPS over 25 starts, just imagine what his ERA would be.


He did have 6 Ks, but 2 of them were against Zach Duke.

Picking nits here, but three of his six strikeouts were against Duke. Milton struck Duke out in the 2nd inning, 4th inning, and 6th inning. In fact, Duke's strikeout in the 6th inning was the last guy Milton retired. Milton gave up a double to Sanchez immediately following Duke's third strikeout, and then Narron finally yanked him for Santos.

RedFanAlways1966
04-08-2007, 09:16 PM
Picking nits here, but three of his six strikeouts were against Duke. Milton struck Duke out in the 2nd inning, 4th inning, and 6th inning.

Thanks for that, Cyclone. My memory isn't very trustworthy! That puts it into better perspective.

GAC
04-08-2007, 09:19 PM
I pray that with the off day Thursday we skip his scheduled start Saturday in Wrigley.

I'm going to be there.

Milton was 5-3 away last year with two quality starts/wins at Chicago. ;)

He pitched 8.2 innings on April 13th (won 8-3), and pitched 7.2 innings on May 31st (won 3-2). Both times he beat Zambrano.

Cyclone792
04-08-2007, 09:19 PM
I pray that with the off day Thursday we skip his scheduled start Saturday in Wrigley.

I'm going to be there.

I find it funny that a guy has an outing which lands him a 6.35 ERA and he gives up 10 hits without getting out of the 6th, and it's consider "decent" by some people. That's when you know your expectations are low.

You're the type of fan that I feel sorry for when it comes to seeing the Reds in person and having to tolerate a Milton start. You're among fans who only have a chance to see the Reds play on a limited basis, be it in an opposing stadium in a city near where you live, or if you're only able to get down to Cincinnati one or three times during the season. Unfortunately, the option of planning around scheduled Milton starts isn't realistic for fans in your situation.

However, you should luck out. This is how I see the Reds rotation shaping up in upcoming games, barring any injuries or other unforeseen circumstances (such as Milton being cut!) in the next week or two ...

@ Arizona, Monday, April 9th = Arroyo
@ Arizona, Tuesday, April 10th = Lohse
@ Arizona, Wednesday, April 11th = Belisle

@ Chicago, Friday, April 13th = Harang
@ Chicago, Saturday, April 14th = Arroyo
@ Chicago, Sunday, April 15th = Lohse

vs. Milwaukee, Monday, April 16th = Belisle
vs. Milwaukee, Tuesday, April 17th = Milton

vs. Houston, Wednesday, April 18th = Harang
vs. Houston, Thursday, April 19th = Arroyo

vs. Philadelphia, Friday, April 20th = Lohse
vs. Philadelphia, Saturday, April 21st = Belisle
vs. Philadelphia, Sunday, April 22nd = Milton

reds44
04-08-2007, 09:23 PM
Milton was 5-3 away last year with two quality starts/wins at Chicago. ;)

He pitched 8.2 innings on April 13th (won 8-3), and pitched 7.2 innings on May 31st (won 3-2). Both times he beat Zambrano.
I was there for that one. He also tripled off of Zambrano. Lopez and Keanrs both hit homers in that game.

That was the game where I talked to Phillips for about 10 minutes before the game. Good times.

jmac
04-08-2007, 09:25 PM
I find it funny that a guy has an outing which lands him a 6.35 ERA and he gives up 10 hits without getting out of the 6th, and it's consider "decent" by some people. That's when you know your expectations are low.

When Milton is pitching...today was a "quality" start :cry:
Jimmy Haynes-esque !

reds44
04-08-2007, 09:31 PM
You're the type of fan that I feel sorry for when it comes to seeing the Reds in person and having to tolerate a Milton start. You're among fans who only have a chance to see the Reds play on a limited basis, be it in an opposing stadium in a city near where you live, or if you're only able to get down to Cincinnati one or three times during the season. Unfortunately, the option of planning around scheduled Milton starts isn't realistic for fans in your situation.

However, you should luck out. This is how I see the Reds rotation shaping up in upcoming games, barring any injuries or other unforeseen circumstances (such as Milton being cut!) in the next week or two ...

@ Arizona, Monday, April 9th = Arroyo
@ Arizona, Tuesday, April 10th = Lohse
@ Arizona, Wednesday, April 11th = Belisle

@ Chicago, Friday, April 13th = Harang
@ Chicago, Saturday, April 14th = Arroyo
@ Chicago, Sunday, April 15th = Lohse

vs. Milwaukee, Monday, April 16th = Belisle
vs. Milwaukee, Tuesday, April 17th = Milton

vs. Houston, Wednesday, April 18th = Harang
vs. Houston, Thursday, April 19th = Arroyo

vs. Philadelphia, Friday, April 20th = Lohse
vs. Philadelphia, Saturday, April 21st = Belisle
vs. Philadelphia, Sunday, April 22nd = Milton
I hope you are right. I was thinking the same thing as you.

I had a rough year last year at games. I saw us lose to the Cubs on an April Friday at Wrigley, a game in which Claussen pitched and Edwin commited 3 errors. The next day I saw Milton beat Zambrano (post I mentioned above). I saw us lose 11-0 in Milwaukee, and saw Claussen give up 4 homers in the same inning. Then I came to Cincinnati for the Saturday White Sox game, and watched the bullpen blow a lead. Then, I was in Houston for vacation and saw us split a pair of games.

So, I was 2-4 at games last year. I saw Milton twice (1 W, 1 ND), Claussen twice (2 L), Arroyo once (L), and Elizardo once (W). In 05 I went something like 6-1, which was surprisingly good.

I really wish I could get out to more, but with school and money and all that stuff it's hard too. I plan on making a trip down to Cincinnati for a couple games in late July this year.

StillFunkyB
04-08-2007, 09:34 PM
I watched the game. I knew Milton was starting.

First inning he was throwing 87 mph fastballs down the middle. I don't think there is a person on this board that couldn't hit that. I knew it would be a long day. I have a feeling had it been warmer we might have been watching another Jeff Austin 9 run first inning without an out.

The money is already spent Wayne. Cut him, and give the team a chance.

I don't hold any ill will toward Eric, but he simply can't pitch at the major league level.

Far East
04-09-2007, 12:48 AM
I'm not a big Milton fan, and I wish he were able to metamorphose from a fly ball pitcher into a ground ball pitcher, which the Pirate sportscaster (Bob Walk, ex- pitcher himself) claims is difficult if not impossible for a big leaguer to do. Love to see him develop a sinker (which I think I heard Eric say that he is unable to do) and a change-up.

In Milton's defense, I saw more movement than usual on some of his fastballs, he threw strikes, and many (almost all) of the Pirate hits (the bloops and the better driven balls alike) were on pitcher's pitches, that is relatively low and relatively near -- or even off -- the (right hand hitters') outside corner. Not too shabby for not having pitched since Florida.

In other words, if he were to throw that well again against the same lineup the results could be much better. And if the Reds had scored 7, 10, or 12 runs and had won the game, Milton's performance might not seemed as bad to as many fans.

Razor Shines
04-09-2007, 12:57 AM
Does anyone actually doubt that he'll get at least two more starts? I don't. I think the FO can use the excuse that he just came off of the DL, so today was expected to be less than great. And I think he'll even get another pass after his next bad outing. Then after his third bad outing they'll put him on the DL for a couple more months. He's not going to be DFA, no way they could trade him. We're just going to have to watch him take his licks for two more starts and hope the offense scores 7 or 8 runs at least one of those games.

WVRedsFan
04-09-2007, 01:26 AM
Does anyone actually doubt that he'll get at least two more starts? I don't. I think the FO can use the excuse that he just came off of the DL, so today was expected to be less than great. And I think he'll even get another pass after his next bad outing. Then after his third bad outing they'll put him on the DL for a couple more months. He's not going to be DFA, no way they could trade him. We're just going to have to watch him take his licks for two more starts and hope the offense scores 7 or 8 runs at least one of those games.

You hit the nail on the head, RS. He's with us for the duration and Narron will march him out whenever a fifth starter is needed. I just hope and pray that when the season ends, we don't offer him a contract at less money. We've suffered enough.

TeamSelig
04-09-2007, 01:57 AM
i think until we have a legitimate replacement for him he stays a Red... not counting Livingston or guys who are unproven (besides Bailey)

Ltlabner
04-09-2007, 06:46 AM
I know Wayne has appeared in the press to feal comfortable with Milton on the mound, but do folks feal that behind closed doors Narron, Wayne and BCast are perfectly fine with running Milton out there?

It's all speculation but I would have to think they are not very happy with the situation either. There's a world of difference between not seeing a problem/thinking everything is fine and wrestling to make a hard decision.

They've already "demoted" him to the #5 spot meaning he woln't see that much work in the begining of the season (despite his paycheck). I'm streching to read the tea leafs, but IMO that's a signal that they are willing to make the choice of ultimatley DFA'ing him but since it's their money they just aren't operating on the RZ timetable.

GAC
04-09-2007, 08:25 AM
In Milton's defense, I saw more movement than usual on some of his fastballs, he threw strikes, and many (almost all) of the Pirate hits (the bloops and the better driven balls alike) were on pitcher's pitches, that is relatively low and relatively near -- or even off -- the (right hand hitters') outside corner. Not too shabby for not having pitched since Florida.

I thought he had darn good movement. I counted 5 pop-up bloop singles that landed in "no mans land" behind SS/2B and in front of the CFer/LFer, just out of these guy's reach. I was shaking my head in frustration, and beginning to wonder where Freel and Dunn were playing. I was feeling somewhat sorry for Milton because they weren't teeing off on him, which is a very common occurrence for him pitching at GABP, and being a flyball pitcher. It bad luck in this particular outing IMO from watching the game.

He would have easily went into the 5th scoreless had Dunn not misplaced that ball in the corner that allowed the runner to score from 1B. He got the next two batters out easily. He gave up the 2 run dinger to Wilson in the 5th, but it wasn't a bad pitch. I give credit to Wilson who went down and got it, got good wood on it, and lined it just over the LF wall. It was a good piece of hitting on his part.

But we came back and made it a 1 run game (4-3), and our BP gives up 2 HRs on balls that were hit far better then anything Milton had given up while in there.


In other words, if he were to throw that well again against the same lineup the results could be much better. And if the Reds had scored 7, 10, or 12 runs and had won the game, Milton's performance might not seemed as bad to as many fans.

Exactly. Take a look at Harang and Arroyo's last games pitched. Pretty comparable. Arroyo lost, and Harang won his because we got offense.

I agree with most that Milton should be watched very carefully, and probably pulled once he can get to the 6th inning. But if he can get us into the 6th, giving up only giving up 3 runs, and keeping us in the game at GABP, I'll take it from Milton.

RichRed
04-09-2007, 09:23 AM
Exactly. Take a look at Harang and Arroyo's last games pitched. Pretty comparable. Arroyo lost, and Harang won his because we got offense.


Problem is, a start like that from Harang or Arroyo is an aberration. With Milton, it's peak performance. Enough already with the starts for Milton.

MWM
04-09-2007, 09:31 AM
Who cares aobut movement if hitters can still hit it? What kind of consolation is "movement on pitches" after you've just give up 10 hits in less than 6 innings? I care about getting guys out, and Milton doesn't do that. And yes, even had the Reds scored 20 runs, Milton's outing would be viewed the same by me.

REDREAD
04-09-2007, 09:48 AM
At what point does having a guy who simply CANNOT go past 5 innings pitched hinder a team? It's an honest question. Milton has a hard-ceiling of about 6 innings, but he'll average about 5 this season (knee getting worse, a year older etc)


I know this isn't an orginal idea, but if the Reds really want to win, the Reds would put Milton in the pen and put Sarloos in the rotation.

Last year, they at least had the plausible excuse that they didn't have another physical body to put in the rotation. They also had the tiny hope that maybe he'd get better (not that it was realistic).

But now we're in the last year. It's clear he's not going to be tradable in June. It's clear he has physical problems. Why not put him in the bullpen?
It might actually help his career. Brantley commented that he was changing his motion after 5 IP due to fatigue or maybe the pain getting worse as he pitched.

Maybe (and this is a long shot), Milton could be used to eat 3 innings two or three times a week. Start him off in long relief and see how he does. Also try him in one inning spots. He'll probably still give up a lot of hits, but he'll do less damage than being a 5th starter.

Roy Tucker
04-09-2007, 09:52 AM
Bad pitchers seem to have bad luck. I suppose that's part of why they are bad.

If it's time for confessions, there have been times I've been secretly happy when a Red that is on my "sack of coal for Christmas" list has made a bad play to prove his suckitude.

I am ashamed to admit this.

westofyou
04-09-2007, 10:10 AM
I thought he had darn good movement.

10 hits in 5 innings, it moved both good in and out.

registerthis
04-09-2007, 10:40 AM
But Harang also pitched 5.2 innings on Saturday, and gave up 8 hits and 5 ERs.

Difference is, Harang is more likely than not in his next start to put up 7 innings of 5 hit, 1 run ball. Milton would require an act of divine intervention to do something like that.

registerthis
04-09-2007, 10:44 AM
Who cares aobut movement if hitters can still hit it? What kind of consolation is "movement on pitches" after you've just give up 10 hits in less than 6 innings? I care about getting guys out, and Milton doesn't do that. And yes, even had the Reds scored 20 runs, Milton's outing would be viewed the same by me.

Amen.

11 baserunners in 5.1 innings is a bad performance, pure and simple. And the thing is, practically everyone and their mother knows that that is the type of performance one can expect from Eric Milton when he pitches. It's not a surprise.

osuceltic
04-09-2007, 10:52 AM
I think he'll be on a fairly short leash, and I won't be at all surprised to see them DFA him. This is the last year of the deal. If Krivsky has shown anything, it's that he's all about results. I think Milton gets a few starts to see if he can put it together, then gets his walking papers.

IslandRed
04-09-2007, 10:59 AM
I know Wayne has appeared in the press to feal comfortable with Milton on the mound, but do folks feal that behind closed doors Narron, Wayne and BCast are perfectly fine with running Milton out there?

It's all speculation but I would have to think they are not very happy with the situation either. There's a world of difference between not seeing a problem/thinking everything is fine and wrestling to make a hard decision.

They've already "demoted" him to the #5 spot meaning he woln't see that much work in the begining of the season (despite his paycheck). I'm streching to read the tea leafs, but IMO that's a signal that they are willing to make the choice of ultimatley DFA'ing him but since it's their money they just aren't operating on the RZ timetable.

I agree with that. The entire sequence of events -- being sent to pitch against Single-A hitters, placed on the DL when it wasn't hard to read between the lines and see he didn't think he needed to be, bumped down to the #5 spot -- suggests that they're giving him one more chance to get right before they cut bait. What we don't know is, how long is the leash? This front office is pretty good at holding the cards close and they don't badmouth their own players. They're going to publicly stand up for Milton until a few minutes before he's cleaning out his locker. That's frustrating for those of us watching for signs Milton won't be around much longer, but it's the right way to do things.

registerthis
04-09-2007, 11:02 AM
I think it's going to take a meltdown of atomic proportions before Milton is finally cut. He pitched just well enough yesterday that management can defend running him out there again. I think it will take a game where he can't get out of the first inning and gives up 3-4 HRs before his presence on the team becomes completely indefensible.

KronoRed
04-09-2007, 11:09 AM
I am ashamed to admit this.

Don't be :devil:

Chip R
04-09-2007, 11:13 AM
If you read some of the quotes in the paper today it seems like most everyone was pleased with Milton's start with the exception of Milton himself. Dunn heaped high praise on him and said he was the hardest worker he's ever seen. He seems very popular in the clubhouse. If and when they cut him, it will not be a popular decision. However they cut Danny Graves and he was a very popular teammate too so who knows?

westofyou
04-09-2007, 11:14 AM
Dunn heaped high praise on him and said he was the hardest worker he's ever seen.

But that was Paul Wilson's job on the team.

Chip R
04-09-2007, 11:15 AM
But that was Paul Wilson's job on the team.


Maybe it was a tie. ;)

KronoRed
04-09-2007, 11:20 AM
But that was Paul Wilson's job on the team.

and Jimmy Haynes before that

TheBigLebowski
04-09-2007, 11:23 AM
I understand the senitments of many of the local Reds fans. I'm no great fan of Eric Milton and, I hope he is gone sooner rather than later. However, I live in Gainesville, FL. I have not been able to return home to Cincy for 4 years - my last trip to Porkopolis was for my Grandfather's funeral, which was not during baseball nor football season. Heck, I've never even been to GABP.

Each season, I make it a point to catch the Reds either in Miami or Atlanta. Both drives are over 6 hours and I bear a significant expense to see them play each and every time but, it's worth it to me. I'd do it if Eric Milton was pitching. I'd do it if Brandon Claussen was pitching. I'd do it if we gave Chris Hammond a start. Hell, I'd do it if Ted Power or Ron Robinson were pitching, even at their current age. I can certainly understand why people who live within easy driving range of the Reds may get to the point where they take the capability to see the team play for granted. It's a problem I hope to one day have.

I also could not find it within me to root for the Reds to lose, even if it logically may be better for us long-term. Even though I'm 30 years old, the 8 year old kid that used to cry when the Reds would lose still encompasses too much of my being.

VR
04-09-2007, 11:27 AM
It was surprising that they didn't wait til tonight to start him. Bad back has been hurting him all spring, so they throw him out there in the GABP on a 33 degree day.....instead of 85 in PHO.
Much like last year when he was allowed to implode after 90 pitches despite a proven track record to derail......JN needs to be wiser about his limitations.

Ltlabner
04-09-2007, 11:28 AM
If you read some of the quotes in the paper today it seems like most everyone was pleased with Milton's start with the exception of Milton himself. Dunn heaped high praise on him and said he was the hardest worker he's ever seen. He seems very popular in the clubhouse. If and when they cut him, it will not be a popular decision. However they cut Danny Graves and he was a very popular teammate too so who knows?

The other players see the writing on the wall. They see a "brother in arms" struggling to continue in his chosen profession. They all know he's done. You think they'd rather have a big time stud out there racking up win after win....you bet. But they are seeing the swan song of a player and it's got to be hard to watch...especially since each and every one of them will go through the same process in one form or another. So they are going to protect him, talk him up, etc. It's just one more act in the same play that's been performed thousands of times througout baseball history: Death of a Ballplayer

BRM
04-09-2007, 11:40 AM
The quotes in the paper from Dunn and Ross were pretty glowing. Both said he pitched well enough to win but the offense didn't come through. Narron also said he was pleased with what he saw.


"He pitched well," Reds left fielder Adam Dunn said. "The first inning, he pitched himself out of jam. They were getting a lot of little chink hits, but I thought he pitched well. We just didn't swing the bats for him. He pitched good enough to win."


"If he throws like that and we get a couple hits here or there," Ross said, "we win that ballgame."



"He came out and pitched well early," Narron said. "He pitched out of a jam early. His first start coming off the DL, he was fine."

Johnny Footstool
04-09-2007, 11:45 AM
The other players see the writing on the wall. They see a "brother in arms" struggling to continue in his chosen profession. They all know he's done. You think they'd rather have a big time stud out there racking up win after win....you bet. But they are seeing the swan song of a player and it's got to be hard to watch...especially since each and every one of them will go through the same process in one form or another. So they are going to protect him, talk him up, etc. It's just one more act in the same play that's been performed thousands of times througout baseball history: Death of a Ballplayer

Exactly.

I remember Jeff Bagwell on ESPN talking about Danny Graves one night after the Astros had just lit him up. He said Danny was a good pitcher who was just a little off right then, but he'd get back on track.

Most players look out for each other when they know the other guy is down.

REDREAD
04-09-2007, 12:28 PM
I think it's going to take a meltdown of atomic proportions before Milton is finally cut. He pitched just well enough yesterday that management can defend running him out there again. I think it will take a game where he can't get out of the first inning and gives up 3-4 HRs before his presence on the team becomes completely indefensible.

I think it will take two or three starts in a row like that.

If he has one implosion, but has a "ok for him" outting of maybe 6IP, 4 runs either before or after it, they will forgive him.

BRM
04-09-2007, 12:31 PM
I think it will take two or three starts in a row like that.

If he has one implosion, but has a "ok for him" outting of maybe 6IP, 4 runs either before or after it, they will forgive him.

If he consistently pitches like he did yesterday, he'll stick around. Which will mean the Reds will have a near 6.50 ERA pitcher in the rotation for most of the season.

BRM
04-09-2007, 12:36 PM
John Fay's opinion:



I don't think the Reds will make a move with Milton anytime soon, but if Bailey continues to pitch like he did in his first start and Milton continues to pitch like he did in the his first start, the Reds are going to have a PR disaster on their hands.

M2
04-09-2007, 01:03 PM
If you read some of the quotes in the paper today it seems like most everyone was pleased with Milton's start with the exception of Milton himself. Dunn heaped high praise on him and said he was the hardest worker he's ever seen. He seems very popular in the clubhouse. If and when they cut him, it will not be a popular decision. However they cut Danny Graves and he was a very popular teammate too so who knows?

My hope on this is that Krivsky comes from the Twins organization and he was probably there to witness Tom Kelly's "no more screwing around" speach prior to the 2001 season. As I understand it, Kelly ripped new holes in his team for being a bunch of affable losers. If that moment in time stuck with Krivsky then it's possible Milton could become the "nice guys finish last" poster boy. Someone needs to send the message that this organization hates losing more than it likes nice guys.

Kc61
04-09-2007, 01:09 PM
Reds have an off day Thursday. Milton doesn't have to pitch for awhile.

BRM
04-09-2007, 01:10 PM
Reds have an off day Thursday. Milton doesn't have to pitch for awhile.

Let's hope the Reds plan on skipping his turn. Have they confirmed they will yet?

Ltlabner
04-09-2007, 01:22 PM
Someone needs to send the message that this organization hates losing more than it likes nice guys.

It's not as if that message has not been sent, in part, previously. Paul Wilson was sent packing and by all accounts he was loved by all.

That said, they need to continue reinforcing that message.

Ltlabner
04-09-2007, 01:25 PM
If he consistently pitches like he did yesterday, he'll stick around. Which will mean the Reds will have a near 6.50 ERA pitcher in the rotation for most of the season.

Based on what?

People said he'd never be moved to the 5 spot. He was.

People said Jr would never be moved from CF. He was.

People said AH would never be signed to a LTC. He was.

This is not to say that it's 100% proof that they'll stick with Milton but plenty of people have been wrong about what this front office "would never do" before.

Chip R
04-09-2007, 01:43 PM
It's not as if that message has not been sent, in part, previously. Paul Wilson was sent packing and by all accounts he was loved by all.

That said, they need to continue reinforcing that message.


It was easier to send Wilson packing since he was a non-roster invitee. Now if he had been in the last year or in the middle of a big contract, it would have been more difficult.

redsfan4445
04-09-2007, 01:48 PM
i keep he wil do decent enough, the pitching starved Yankees will eat half his salary and take him off the Reds hands.. hmmm well its nice to dream anyway

:)

BRM
04-09-2007, 02:20 PM
Based on what?

People said he'd never be moved from the 5 spot. He was.

People said Jr would never be moved from CF. He was.

People said AH would never be signed to a LTC. He was.

This is not to say that it's 100% proof that they'll stick with Milton but plenty of people have been wrong about what this front office "would never do" before.

Milton hasn't been moved from the 5 spot. That's where he currently is.

I never said Junior wouldn't be moved. I was skeptical though. Wayne and Jerry made me happy with that one.

I fully expected Harang to sign a LTC.

I think if Milton can go out and throw 5-6 innings allowing 4 runs fairly routinely, they will stick with him. At least until Livingston or Bailey forces their hand. My personal opinion is Milton will need to blow up and allow 7 or 8 runs in 3 innings for a few starts before he's DFA'ed or moved to the pen. Just my opinion of course.

Ltlabner
04-09-2007, 02:36 PM
Milton hasn't been moved from the 5 spot. That's where he currently is.

I never said Junior wouldn't be moved. I was skeptical though. Wayne and Jerry made me happy with that one.

I fully expected Harang to sign a LTC.

I think if Milton can go out and throw 5-6 innings allowing 4 runs fairly routinely, they will stick with him. At least until Livingston or Bailey forces their hand. My personal opinion is Milton will need to blow up and allow 7 or 8 runs in 3 innings for a few starts before he's DFA'ed or moved to the pen. Just my opinion of course.


Opps...in my original post I meant to say "people didn't think they would move Milton TO the 5th spot". Not from.

The point is, while you may personally have not uttered all of those ideas, the fact remains the many people have claimed the FO would or wouldn't do particular things only to have the FO turn around and do or not do those things.

BRM
04-09-2007, 02:39 PM
The point is, while you may personally have not uttered all of those ideas, the fact remains the many people have claimed the FO would or wouldn't do particular things only to have the FO turn around and do or not do those things.

The FO may surprise everyone and DFA him after his next start. I seriously doubt it but anything can happen. However, my hunch is he'll be around for 2-3 months unless he completely implodes or Bailey/Livingston forces the issue. I hope I'm proven wrong. It certainly wouldn't be the first time...or the last. ;)

Strikes Out Looking
04-09-2007, 02:49 PM
Here are my thoughts:

1. Comparing Paul Wilson to Eric Milton is wrong. Paul had arm problems and in his last season with the Reds tried to pitch through them. His first season with the Reds was pretty good. Eric Milton's arm seems to have nothing wrong with it. Eric Milton has never had a season that could be characterized as "pretty good."

2. Of course Milton's teammates are going to say good things about his performance. Of course, he pitched good enough to win--if the Reds had scored enough runs--which they didn't. I wouldn't read too much into these comments.

3. Krivsky, Narron and Castellini--and I include Narron, who I have been critical of in the past--aren't morons, they know what is going on. They all realize, for different reasons, that Milton must pitch well, or at least average, in his next few starts, or there will be a major problem with, at the very least the fan base. Of course, we Reds fans aren't as smart or as good as say, the Cardinal fan base (who are the best fans in the world), but we realize a pitcher with an era over 5.00 being paid eight million dollars a year is not a good thing.

4. Milton can pitch well. Unfortunately only for about 3 or 4 innings a game. Thus, I would, as the first thing to do is make him the long relief specialist and put Sarloos into the rotation. I would not pay attention to the fact that he would the highest paid long man in baseball history. If he wants to continue his career as a pitcher following this season, he'll learn to adapt.

5. I root for the Reds period. If Milton is starting, I hope he pitches the game of his life. I want them to win 162 times a year. I want to re-live 1975, when everyday seemed like a winning day. I've lived through Joe Hoerner, Tom Hume, and Joe Valentine. I can make it through another 156 games plus a post season:) of Eric Milton (even if I wished I didn't have to).

Caveat Emperor
04-09-2007, 03:17 PM
I look at it very similarly to following an NFL team that is 2-10 going into Week 13: I always root for them to win, but I'm definately OK with a loss to improve draft positioning.

Right now, I either want Eric Milton to pitch very well or very badly. The longer he performs to a level of "acceptable sub-medocrity," the more damage he does to the ballclub.

REDREAD
04-09-2007, 03:23 PM
It was easier to send Wilson packing since he was a non-roster invitee. Now if he had been in the last year or in the middle of a big contract, it would have been more difficult.

Exactly, the Reds never cut him loose while he was under contract.

It's a little bit different because Paul spent most of the season on the DL instead of blowing games, but history says the Reds will hold on to Milton all season. Cutting someone like Wilson is a much bigger deal than cutting someone like Womack.

If Graves didn't flip off the fans, he would've probably been kept until his contract ran out.

Chip R
04-09-2007, 03:36 PM
Exactly, the Reds never cut him loose while he was under contract.

It's a little bit different because Paul spent most of the season on the DL instead of blowing games, but history says the Reds will hold on to Milton all season. Cutting someone like Wilson is a much bigger deal than cutting someone like Womack.

If Graves didn't flip off the fans, he would've probably been kept until his contract ran out.


Yeah. You can't cut a guy when he's hurt these days. Used to be, if you had a generous owner, he'd give you a train ticket and you'd be on the next train out, injury or not. If your owner wasn't generous, you'd have to pay your own way.

I think you're right about Graves.

Moosie52
04-09-2007, 03:57 PM
:all_cohol :milton:

PuffyPig
04-09-2007, 04:33 PM
What do you mean "if"?

There is zero chance that the Reds will, at this time, simply cut Milton loose.

Whether they should or not is a different question.

But Milton didn't do anything yesterday that will have soured the Reds braintrust.

Whether that should have is a different question.

Ravenlord
04-09-2007, 04:57 PM
if the Reds are going to stick with Milton, they need to really LOOGYify him. he wouldn't be worth his contract by a long a shot, but he'd be closer to it than what he is now.

FWIW, Milton's L/R split by OPS and K/9 since becoming a Red:
R: 886, 5.14
L: 696, 7.18

westofyou
04-09-2007, 07:46 PM
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6078


# Eric Milton returned to the Reds rotation on Sunday after starting the season on the DL with back spasms. Milton pitched to expectations after a terrible spring. Sources indicate that Milton's on the hot seat in Cincinnati. Efforts to trade him have gone nowhere, and unless he pitches well, he's likely to be released in favor of Homer Bailey or one of the other pitchers the Reds have stacked up at Triple-A Louisville. Milton's back appeared to be a non-issue, even in the weekend cold, so at least that problem appears to have been put behind him for now.

vaticanplum
04-09-2007, 07:56 PM
What do you mean "if"?

There is zero chance that the Reds will, at this time, simply cut Milton loose.

Whether they should or not is a different question.

But Milton didn't do anything yesterday that will have soured the Reds braintrust.

Whether that should have is a different question.

If there's one thing I give this administration credit for, it's DFAing when called for. I don't think they would do it on the basis of Milton's performance yesterday and I don't necessarily think that they should. But if it becomes blatantly clear, I have little doubt they'll cut him.

The message that has come from this front office in the past year has been pretty clear: you don't do your job + we have better options = you're out. In some case they haven't even bothered to clear up that second half first. They've DFAd players, they've knocked out scouts, they've cut-and-pasted their front office, and I don't think the money will be a huge concern if Milton is bad enough (especially given that it's his last season). The powers that be on this team don't always have brains, but they sure do have a hatchet.

TheBigLebowski
04-09-2007, 07:57 PM
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6078

Interesting.

jojo
04-09-2007, 08:09 PM
... then for the first time in my life I won't be rooting for the Reds to win that game. I won't be rooting for the opposition either. I just won't care who wins. Not once in 35 years have I had that attitude about the team, but if the club is going to put that pathetic excuse for a pitcher on the mound then I don't see where I should have to root for the team on that day.

I had other things going on this weekend so I didn't see today's game. I didn't even know Milton was getting the start, but when I checked the box score my reaction was "Well, they deserved to lose that game." No sting from the loss. No "I wish they'd have won" regret. No feeling whatsoever. The Reds have finally found something so off-putting, so completely stupid that I'm past caring about it or them when they do it.

You hear that Lucy? You can stick that football in your rear, because I'm not kicking it.

Actually, I remember a Cubs-Phillies games from when I was a kid where both teams scored in the 20's (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHN/CHN197905170.shtml). WGN used to replay that game every winter for a few years afterward. Buckner (one of my all time favorite players along with John Olerud) had 7 rbi's and Dave Kingman (one of my all time least favorite players) had 6 rbis... Interestingly, only 15,000 of Lee Elia's unemployed faithful were at Wrigley that day (though it was a few years before Elia would call a spade a spade in his infamous tirade)...

I wouldn't mind the Reds winning a 28 to 27 game. A Milton start would be a great time for that kind of fireworks....

toledodan
04-09-2007, 08:13 PM
if the reds won't cut him why not place him in the pen for long relief and let sarrlosse(sp) start?

GAC
04-09-2007, 08:40 PM
10 hits in 5 innings, it moved both good in and out.

You guys are basing everything on a box score. Yes, I know he gave up 10 hits. A box score does not always tell the complete picture either. Some may think it does, but it doesn't. It doesn't take into account the intangibles that come into play in that game, just the numbers. For example: the box score shows he gave up 4 ERs. Does it tell you that one of those ERs would have never crossed the plate if a certain LFer, in the 4th inning, hadn't misplayed a ball in the corner like a cat chasing a ball of yarn, and allowed a runner to score all the way from 1B?

Think about it....Eric Milton, going into the 5th at GABP, with the score 0-0.

Many of you who are being critical of Milton in this particular outing...did you watch the game? I agree with you in the overall assessment of Eric Milton. That is not the issue here. We've all seen more than our share of Milton stinkers where he was giving up homers (and runs) left and right, and deserved to be slammed.

This was not one of those outings per say. It wasn't a gem either. I'm simply saying it was a game where he was the victim of unfortunate (or bad) luck with the way half of those balls (pop-ups) were able to fall for hits within reach of our INFers/OFers. Yes, I understand that they are still "classified" as hits, and that is all part of the game. But what impressed me with Milton was that even after he gave up one of those "fluke" hits, he was able to retire the succeeding batters and get out of the inning unscathed. It wasn't until the 5th inning, when he gave up the 2 run dinger to Wilson, that any type of damage was done.

I just don't think some of you, who possibly didn't even see the game, are being far to Milton in this particular outing.

Cutting this guy right now would simply be ridiculous IMO. I'm hoping he does well enough that we can find some suc.... er..... team to trade for him at the deadline because they think he can help. But I'd like to try and get something back, even prospects, for this guy. But I'll be glad when his 10 mil/salary is freed up after this year.

Falls City Beer
04-09-2007, 08:52 PM
You guys are basing everything on a box score. Yes, I know he gave up 10 hits. A box score does not always tell the complete picture either. Some may think it does, but it doesn't. It doesn't take into account the intangibles that come into play in that game, just the numbers. For example: the box score shows he gave up 4 ERs. Does it tell you that one of those ERs would have never crossed the plate if a certain LFer, in the 4th inning, hadn't misplayed a ball in the corner like a cat chasing a ball of yarn, and allowed a runner to score all the way from 1B?

Think about it....Eric Milton, going into the 5th at GABP, with the score 0-0.

Many of you who are being critical of Milton in this particular outing...did you watch the game? I agree with you in the overall assessment of Eric Milton. That is not the issue here. We've all seen more than our share of Milton stinkers where he was giving up homers (and runs) left and right, and deserved to be slammed.

This was not one of those outings per say. It wasn't a gem either. I'm simply saying it was a game where he was the victim of unfortunate (or bad) luck with the way half of those balls (pop-ups) were able to fall for hits within reach of our INFers/OFers. Yes, I understand that they are still "classified" as hits, and that is all part of the game. But what impressed me with Milton was that even after he gave up one of those "fluke" hits, he was able to retire the succeeding batters and get out of the inning unscathed. It wasn't until the 5th inning, when he gave up the 2 run dinger to Wilson, that any type of damage was done.

I just don't think some of you, who possibly didn't even see the game, are being far to Milton in this particular outing.

Cutting this guy right now would simply be ridiculous IMO. I'm hoping he does well enough that we can find some suc.... er..... team to trade for him at the deadline because they think he can help. But I'd like to try and get something back, even prospects, for this guy. But I'll be glad when his 10 mil/salary is freed up after this year.

Well, if you believe the Prospectus's take on the FO, Milton's on the hot seat.

If true, then I guess that makes Wayne and Cast "ridiculous" in your mind.

It's not at all ridiculous to cut loose Milton. The message it sends might be worth every dime they still owe Milton.

jojo
04-09-2007, 09:05 PM
You guys are basing everything on a box score. Yes, I know he gave up 10 hits. A box score does not always tell the complete picture either. Some may think it does, but it doesn't. It doesn't take into account the intangibles that come into play in that game, just the numbers. For example: the box score shows he gave up 4 ERs. Does it tell you that one of those ERs would have never crossed the plate if a certain LFer, in the 4th inning, hadn't misplayed a ball in the corner like a cat chasing a ball of yarn, and allowed a runner to score all the way from 1B?

Think about it....Eric Milton, going into the 5th at GABP, with the score 0-0.

Many of you who are being critical of Milton in this particular outing...did you watch the game? I agree with you in the overall assessment of Eric Milton. That is not the issue here. We've all seen more than our share of Milton stinkers where he was giving up homers (and runs) left and right, and deserved to be slammed.

This was not one of those outings per say. It wasn't a gem either. I'm simply saying it was a game where he was the victim of unfortunate (or bad) luck with the way half of those balls (pop-ups) were able to fall for hits within reach of our INFers/OFers. Yes, I understand that they are still "classified" as hits, and that is all part of the game. But what impressed me with Milton was that even after he gave up one of those "fluke" hits, he was able to retire the succeeding batters and get out of the inning unscathed. It wasn't until the 5th inning, when he gave up the 2 run dinger to Wilson, that any type of damage was done.

I just don't think some of you, who possibly didn't even see the game, are being far to Milton in this particular outing.

Cutting this guy right now would simply be ridiculous IMO. I'm hoping he does well enough that we can find some suc.... er..... team to trade for him at the deadline because they think he can help. But I'd like to try and get something back, even prospects, for this guy. But I'll be glad when his 10 mil/salary is freed up after this year.


Here's the issue with Milton since his catastrophic injury in 2003....

Take the sum of his *good* outings and his *bad* outings and he's basically a replacement level pitcher... the Reds (who aren't considered pitching rich) have several guys they could plug into his spot in the rotation and reasonably expect a similar level of performance or perhaps better...

A great many of his *bad starts* could be critiqued as "if only that one inning/play hadn't happened"... Without arguing about his last start at all, the issue I have with this type of thinking with Milton (alot of people are still enomored with his "potential") is simply this....why doesn't it show up in his peripherals then?

GAC
04-09-2007, 09:24 PM
Well, if you believe the Prospectus's take on the FO, Milton's on the hot seat.

If true, then I guess that makes Wayne and Cast "ridiculous" in your mind.

It's not at all ridiculous to cut loose Milton. The message it sends might be worth every dime they still owe Milton.

Where does BP get their information from concerning this situation? Can you post the link? I'd like to read it.

I don't think Milton is in the hotseat with this FO as far as being released. I could be wrong, but he is in the last year of a contract and there is pressure on him. But if they were "entertaining" releasing him because of his inconsistent performance, they would have done so before the season started and freed up the roster spot. We have already seen them do it in the past. The fact they allowed him to start the other day tells me they want to try and give the guy the chance, notwithstanding his previous performances, keep their fingers crossed, and hope they can possibly get something out of the 10 Million Dolar Guy other than releasing him to send out some sort of "message". Whatever that message may be.

Most of us already realize that, due to the fact he is a flyball pitcher mismatched for the type of ballpark GABP is, he should have never been signed. But his record shows he has pitched far better outside of our own park. Maybe the answer is to platoon him with another pitcher, and "restrict" his starts outside GABP? But to release the guy, when none of the candidates being put forth provide any more certainty or assurance they'll do better, is still ridiculous IMO.

Falls City Beer
04-09-2007, 09:26 PM
Where does BP get their information from concerning this situation? Can you post the link? I'd like to read it.

I don't think Milton is in the hotseat with this FO as far as being released. I could be wrong, but he is in the last year of a contract and there is pressure on him. But if they were "entertaining" releasing him because of his inconsistent performance, they would have done so before the season started and freed up the roster spot. We have already seen them do it in the past. The fact they allowed him to start the other day tells me they want to try and give the guy the chance, notwithstanding his previous performances, keep their fingers crossed, and hope they can possibly get something out of the 10 Million Dolar Guy other than releasing him to send out some sort of "message". Whatever that message may be.

Most of us already realize that, due to the fact he is a flyball pitcher mismatched for the type of ballpark GABP is, he should have never been signed. But his record shows he has pitched far better outside of our own park. Maybe the answer is to platoon him with another pitcher, and "restrict" his starts outside GABP? But to release the guy, when none of the candidates being put forth provide any more certainty or assurance they'll do better, is still ridiculous IMO.

The message: stop sucking. Pretty good one, if you ask me.

The link is on this page. woy posted it.

westofyou
04-09-2007, 09:30 PM
Where does BP get their information from concerning this situation? Can you post the link? I'd like to read it.

Here's the Link

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6078

As for their "information" I assume that they are like any reporter out there, they have sources.

Nugget
04-09-2007, 11:21 PM
Milton is a RED and as long as he is and is on the mound pitching I wish him all the best.

The REDS were still in the game when Milton left so I wouldn't be blaming the loss on him but that said he is currently the worst of the five guys in the rotation.

Spring~Fields
04-10-2007, 03:19 AM
Does anyone really have any confidence left in Milton? I know I don't. Hide him in the bullpen and run him out there for three innings when expedient.

GAC
04-10-2007, 08:50 AM
Here's the issue with Milton since his catastrophic injury in 2003....

Take the sum of his *good* outings and his *bad* outings and he's basically a replacement level pitcher... the Reds (who aren't considered pitching rich) have several guys they could plug into his spot in the rotation and reasonably expect a similar level of performance or perhaps better...

A great many of his *bad starts* could be critiqued as "if only that one inning/play hadn't happened"... Without arguing about his last start at all, the issue I have with this type of thinking with Milton (alot of people are still enomored with his "potential") is simply this....why doesn't it show up in his peripherals then?

I agree with everything you have stated. Good post. All I am saying is that his outing/performance Sunday was not as bad as the box score, which doesn't tell you the entire picture, indicates. And that is not a defense of Milton in the sense that I think he is a good, or even salvageable #5, pitcher. He's not. And I've stated that numerous times over the last year or so.You'll get 2 bad outings for every decent one. And he pitches far better away than at home.

I just felt sorry for him on this particular Sunday because he had pretty good stuff - the fly balls that were being hit of him were all routine, except for the line drive HR by Wilson, and he was simply the victim of bad luck.

But you're right about his always seeming to have that "one bad inning". But his only bad inning Sunday, prior to be being pulled in the 6th, was the 5th were he gave up the 2 run homer and was thus down 3-0. I'm not saying I was overwhelmingly pleased with it, but it is keeping us in the ballgame.

What bothered me more then anything was when we scored 3 runs the following inning to pull within one run (4-3), and then have our BP give up the two dingers to seal it.

That's where my anger was at, more then at Milton.

GAC
04-10-2007, 08:54 AM
The message: stop sucking. Pretty good one, if you ask me.

Not good enough to simply release a guy you're paying, or will owe, 10 mil to. You have to try and get the innings out of this guy and try to get something out of him.

I'm not as up on the rules as some are; but if they release him they get nothing in return right?

registerthis
04-10-2007, 09:43 AM
Not good enough to simply release a guy you're paying, or will owe, 10 mil to. You have to try and get the innings out of this guy and try to get something out of him.

Money shouldn't play a part in this decision, although we'd be fools to think it doesn't weigh on Krivsky's mind.

The money guaranteed to Milton is as good as spent. It's gone, regardless of what happens. Though they likely do, the Reds should feel no obligation to pitch Milton simply because he's owed a lot of money. That money is owed regardless of whether he goes 20-0 or 0-20...difference is, at 0-20, he's hurting the team in more ways than simply financially.

Now, you might make the argument that the Reds don't have anyone better so they might as well run Milton out there. That's a slightly more convincing argument, although I'm of the belief that pretty much any minor league fodder would suffice for Milton's slot. Regardless, Milton's salary should play no factor in whether or not he stays with the club--whether he's hurting or helping this team should.

Redsland
04-10-2007, 10:42 AM
I'm not as up on the rules as some are; but if they release him they get nothing in return right?
Correct. If we release him and someone else signs him, his new team has to pay the major league minimum of $380,000, pro-rated for whatever amount of time is left in the season. We're on the hook for the rest of his current, existing contract.

Bottom line, we're paying about $9MM either way.

M2
04-10-2007, 11:04 AM
Milton's salary should play no factor in whether or not he stays with the club--whether he's hurting or helping this team should.

Exactly. Milton's the classic case of looking to get blood from a stone. He's failed completely in his first two seasons with the Reds and he's shown nothing that indicates he's capable of anything better. In fact, he looks like he's headed for new lows. The Reds are paying him to sabotage the team. It's insane.

You pay players to help your team. If instead a player actively hurts your team, which is inarguably the case with Milton, then it makes a lot more sense to pay him to go away.

M2
04-10-2007, 11:47 AM
For anyone who doubts Milton's putridity (major thanks to WOY for running the numbers):

There's exactly two pitchers in baseball history who have pitched 1,500+ innings and posted an ERA of 5.00 or higher. Jose Lima (1,567.2 IP, 5.27 ERA) and Eric Milton (1,533 IP, 5.01 ERA). That's it. No one else has been allowed to suck that bad for that long.

BRM
04-10-2007, 11:48 AM
Well, he's been slightly better than Jose Lima. So he's got that going for him.

M2
04-10-2007, 11:50 AM
Well, he's been slightly better than Jose Lima. So he's got that going for him.

Yes, he deserves the chance to break the record.

texasdave
04-10-2007, 12:34 PM
For anyone who doubts Milton's putridity (major thanks to WOY for running the numbers):

There's exactly two pitchers in baseball history who have pitched 1,500+ innings and posted an ERA of 5.00 or higher. Jose Lima (1,567.2 IP, 5.27 ERA) and Eric Milton (1,533 IP, 5.01 ERA). That's it. No one else has been allowed to suck that bad for that long.

To paraphrase a post from another thread in ORG: Context is Everything. An ERA of 5.00 in baseball today is not the same as an ERA at almost any other time in the history of baseball. One question: Was Jack Billingham a putrid starting pitcher? Both Billingham and Milton have a career ERA+ of 94. (ERA relative to the league)

This is not a defense of Eric Milton. He is bad. However, he may not be quite as bad as he is being made out to be.

westofyou
04-10-2007, 12:39 PM
To paraphrase a post from another thread in ORG: Context is Everything. An ERA of 5.00 in baseball today is not the same as an ERA at almost any other time in the history of baseball. One question: Was Jack Billingham a putrid starting pitcher? Both Billingham and Milton have a career ERA+ of 94. (ERA relative to the league)

This is not a defense of Eric Milton. He is bad. However, he may not be quite as bad as he is being made out to be.

Ok, so he's the 11th worst all time vs the league average.

is that bad enough to throw him under the bus yet?

BTW #1 is a Red.


CAREER
MODERN (1900-)

INNINGS PITCHED >= 1500
RSAA displayed only--not a sorting criteria

ERA DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE IP RSAA
1 Herm Wehmeier -.82 4.80 3.97 1803.2 -161
2 Jose Lima -.80 5.26 4.47 1567.2 -137
3 Dick Ruthven -.52 4.14 3.62 2109 -59
4 Tony Cloninger -.49 4.07 3.58 1768.1 -90
5 Andy Hawkins -.49 4.22 3.74 1558.1 -92
6 Bobby Witt -.48 4.83 4.35 2465 -130
7 Joe Oeschger -.48 3.81 3.33 1817.2 -94
8 Jack Knott -.48 4.97 4.50 1557 -38
9 Harry McIntire -.47 3.22 2.74 1650.2 -110
10 Jack Fisher -.46 4.06 3.60 1977 -118
11 Eric Milton -.45 5.01 4.56 1527.1 -49
12 Ray Burris -.45 4.17 3.73 2188.1 -62
13 Mark Gardner -.44 4.56 4.12 1764.2 -109
14 Jimmy Ring -.43 4.11 3.68 2362 -15
15 Casey Patten -.43 3.36 2.93 2063 -94


BTW Billingham had a couple of seasons that I'd kill for.

flyer85
04-10-2007, 12:41 PM
Well, he's been slightly better than Jose Lima. So he's got that going for him.I wonder if Carl Spackler is a relative?

membengal
04-10-2007, 12:47 PM
For anyone who doubts Milton's putridity (major thanks to WOY for running the numbers):

There's exactly two pitchers in baseball history who have pitched 1,500+ innings and posted an ERA of 5.00 or higher. Jose Lima (1,567.2 IP, 5.27 ERA) and Eric Milton (1,533 IP, 5.01 ERA). That's it. No one else has been allowed to suck that bad for that long.


Yeesh. And, yeesh.

M2
04-10-2007, 01:10 PM
texasdave, there's never been an era in baseball history where a 5.00 ERA was anything but awful. There was as much scoring in the late 1920s and through the 1930s as there is today. Teams just didn't keep trotting disaster pitchers out to the mound -- a perfect example of how modernity often neglects common sense.

Plus, if we're talking about context, Milton and Lima are the two WORST pitchers of their era. Explain to me why the Reds should be starting someone with that distinction every fifth day.

texasdave
04-10-2007, 01:26 PM
texasdave, there's never been an era in baseball history where a 5.00 ERA was anything but awful. There was as much scoring in the late 1920s and through the 1930s as there is today. Teams just didn't keep trotting disaster pitchers out to the mound -- a perfect example of how modernity often neglects common sense.

Plus, if we're talking about context, Milton and Lima are the two WORST pitchers of their era. Explain to me why the Reds should be starting someone with that distinction every fifth day.

I have stated in another thread that I would cut Milton immediately. I would eat his 9 million dollar contract. I was not in any way shape or form defending Eric Milton. There are plenty of valid reasons to bash Eric Milton. I just thought that stating, or even intimating, that he is the second worst starting pitcher in the history of baseball was going overboard. BTW, according to baseball-reference.com his ERA+ of 94 is tied for 39th worst all-time. He is tied with, among others, Jack Billingham, Jim Lonborg, Steve Blass, Brett Tomko, Terry Mulholland and Russ Ortiz.

15fan
04-10-2007, 01:29 PM
For anyone who doubts Milton's putridity (major thanks to WOY for running the numbers):

There's exactly two pitchers in baseball history who have pitched 1,500+ innings and posted an ERA of 5.00 or higher. Jose Lima (1,567.2 IP, 5.27 ERA) and Eric Milton (1,533 IP, 5.01 ERA). That's it. No one else has been allowed to suck that bad for that long.

In that context, it's pretty easy to assert that throwing $27 million at Eric Milton for 3 years is one of the worst contracts in the history of baseball. There was a large body of work indicating he was a lousy pitcher. Yet they threw crazy money at him and then trotted him out there every 5th day for 3 years.

The contract is a sunk cost. The time has long since passed when it made sense to just eat it and move on.

M2
04-10-2007, 01:52 PM
I have stated in another thread that I would cut Milton immediately. I would eat his 9 million dollar contract. I was not in any way shape or form defending Eric Milton. There are plenty of valid reasons to bash Eric Milton. I just thought that stating, or even intimating, that he is the second worst starting pitcher in the history of baseball was going overboard. BTW, according to baseball-reference.com his ERA+ of 94 is tied for 39th worst all-time. He is tied with, among others, Jack Billingham, Jim Lonborg, Steve Blass, Brett Tomko, Terry Mulholland and Russ Ortiz.

I like ERA+ as a thumbnail stat, but there needs to be some context around that.

For instance, the distance between 94 and 100 is greater than in was in better pitching eras. That translates to real runs. In high scoring eras poor pitching falls farther away from the average. It actually becomes a bigger problem. Milton's also reliant on a fair amount of luck to crack 90 these days. His ERA+ with the Reds is probably around 80 and my guess is that's about where he'd land if the team was insane enough to let him pitch this year. The guy who pitched for the Twins in 1999-2001 is gone.

BRM
04-10-2007, 01:57 PM
His ERA+ with the Reds is probably around 80 and my guess is that's about where he'd land if the team was insane enough to let him pitch this year. The guy who pitched for the Twins in 1999-2001 is gone.

It was 69 in 2005, 93 last year.

GAC
04-10-2007, 09:07 PM
I completely and wholeheartedly agree with what M2, woy, and others, are saying about Eric Milton as far as an overall assessment. You'll get no argument from me, and I've stated the same on many occassions.

My response on this thread was solely concerning his pitching on Sunday.

Would it upset me if they released him? I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I just simply think that before they would entertain doing so, they should try to "maximize" this guy as much as possible, since we've held on to him this long and he is in the last year of his contract, and try to get something/anything out of him. Cutting him gets us nothing.

What do I mean by maximize? Limit his starts at GABP as much as possible. We have an off day coming up. Pass him over. Utilize him more away. Warning signs should go up once he reaches the 5th/6th inning. Especially if he has a lead. Don't push him.

I look at the pitching market and the ridiculous signings that went on this past winter. For example....


WHIP BAA ERA
Suppan 1.42 .278 4.60
Lilly 1.37 .250 4.57
Marquis 1.43 .270 4.53
Weaver 1.34 .273 4.58

If Milton can go .500 at the break (4-4), even with an ERA of 5.04, is there someone out there that would be interested in him, if they were in contention, and would take a chance on him for the remainder of the year? Why not, looking at the market? Impossible?

We hold onto the guy for two more months till the trading deadline. You've already spent the money. Cutting the guy when you really have no truly viable candidate to step into this rotation, and we don't, makes no sense to me.

But I will be glad, and I've stated so, when his 10 mil is off the payroll. But not in this manner.