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Redlegs
04-10-2007, 02:08 PM
Bronson's tossed two good games for the Reds with nothing to show for it thus far. I remember a few years ago when Paul Wilson went through this for half a season. Hopefully the tide will turn soon. Until then, Bronson gets a big ole' "Hang with 'em".

roby
04-10-2007, 02:57 PM
Bronson's tossed two good games for the Reds with nothing to show for it thus far. I remember a few years ago when Paul Wilson went through this for half a season. Hopefully the tide will turn soon. Until then, Bronson gets a big ole' "Hang with 'em".

It wasn't just two games this year...Bronson pitched well with little run support last year as well. He and Harang both could have pushed the twenty win mark with a little support. Hopefully things will turn around for him soon.

smith288
04-10-2007, 03:14 PM
The Reds: "We make your #3 look like Clemens"

Tom Servo
04-10-2007, 04:05 PM
Ted Lilly and Doug Davis, both crafty lefthanders, did us in even when Bronson was "on" in his starts. Hopefully is next start isn't against a lefty we can't touch.

Redlegs
04-10-2007, 04:51 PM
Ted Lilly and Doug Davis, both crafty lefthanders, did us in even when Bronson was "on" in his starts. Hopefully is next start isn't against a lefty we can't touch.

If I'm not mistaken, that would be one Ted Lilly at Wrigley.

Redlegs
04-14-2007, 08:19 PM
Another quality start today. More non-support and another loss.:(

jojo
04-14-2007, 09:54 PM
Another quality start today. More non-support and another loss.:(

why care so much about his record?

Redlegs
04-14-2007, 10:00 PM
why care so much about his record?
It's not so much Arroyo's record in particular. I just hate it when a pitcher goes out and gives good effort after good effort with nothing to show for it. He's pitching in some tough luck right now and is tagged with an 0-2 start despite giving quality outings every time. It's frustrating.

jojo
04-14-2007, 10:16 PM
It's not so much Arroyo's record in particular. I just hate it when a pitcher goes out and gives good effort after good effort with nothing to show for it. He's pitching in some tough luck right now and is tagged with an 0-2 start despite giving quality outings every time. It's frustrating.

he's done his job....thats alot to show for it.

RedFanAlways1966
04-14-2007, 10:34 PM
Obviously we have talked about the cold weather and the effect on games this season. We hear that it makes it harder for a pitcher to grip the ball. Has this been a problem for Bronson Arroyo? He has been good and deserved better, but he has already walked as many batters (7) in 3 starts as he walked in the entire month of April last season (yes, he had an IBB today, but still). Last year he did not walk a batter until his 3rd start of the season.

REDS Starters, % of strikes thrown
(1) Milton, 72.6%
(2) Belisle, 68.6%
(3) Lohse, 67.8%
(4) Harang, 67.2%
(5) Arroyo, 63.8%

% of strikes is not a tell-tale sign for success (see Milton). But the number of walks by Arroyo has been high for him thus far.

Falls City Beer
04-14-2007, 10:41 PM
Bronson didn't do himself any favors today. He was okay, but again, if you can't keep this Cubs' outfit in check, maybe the problem lies in the pitching. The Cubs' offense (particularly without Ramirez) is not at all good.

I've said it once, I'll say it again: wait until this pitching faces a real offense; up to this point, they've only faced the dregs of the NL (Pitt, Chicago, Arizona).

reds1869
04-14-2007, 10:46 PM
This is why I don't put much stock in won/loss record. It is a team stat, not an individual achievement. Think about it: a few more batters yesterday and Harang would have picked up a win, despite pitching a fairly poor game. Quality starts, WHIP, ERA, etc are much better indicators of pitching prowess.

jojo
04-14-2007, 11:04 PM
This is why I don't put much stock in won/loss record. It is a team stat, not an individual achievement. Think about it: a few more batters yesterday and Harang would have picked up a win, despite pitching a fairly poor game. Quality starts, WHIP, ERA, etc are much better indicators of pitching prowess.

Quality starts, WHIP, and ERA are severely flawed for similar reasons....

reds1869
04-14-2007, 11:43 PM
Quality starts, WHIP, and ERA are severely flawed for similar reasons....

While I acknowledge they have weaknesses (all stats do), they are in no way reliant on the team's offense. You will never have a pitching stat that 100% eliminates team contribution; even ball-strike ratio depends largely on the catcher's call.

jojo
04-15-2007, 12:33 AM
While I acknowledge they have weaknesses (all stats do), they are in no way reliant on the team's offense. You will never have a pitching stat that 100% eliminates team contribution; even ball-strike ratio depends largely on the catcher's call.

No but they are very reliant on the team's defense and their weaknesses basically render them useless-especailly sine there are much better ways. I'd also suggest that the catcher's call is the least of a pitcher's worries...

As pointed out here (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1296318&postcount=21), there are actually very good ways to evaluate pitching that completely ignore run- and hit-based metrics and thus avoid dilution/masking of the pitcher's true contribution.

captainmorgan07
04-15-2007, 12:45 PM
seems everytime bronson pitches he always faces a starting pitcher who stifles are offense and doesn't give him any run support which would allow him to make a mistake or 2