PDA

View Full Version : Catching Problem



runfreelrun
04-10-2007, 03:25 PM
Anyone more then a bit concerned about David Ross. I think that he has proven that he was a one year wonder (1/2 a year really) and with our reduced offensive production we cant afford to have him hit .210. Anyone else notice last night with the bases loaded and a 3-1 count he got an 83 mph fastball and was late on it. He has such a long swing, he struggles to catch up to most fastballs. I know we lack outfield depth at the major league level, but does anyone else think we should ship some surplus pitching and add a quality bat behind the plate? At the very least Javy should play more, heck even give Moeller a shot because Ross cant hit major league pitching. At least get him out of the 7 hole and put Gonzo there.

EddieMilner
04-10-2007, 03:28 PM
holy small sample sizes batman. I'll start to worry after we are 3 or 4 weeks into the season.

George Anderson
04-10-2007, 03:28 PM
The season is a week old, not quite enough time to describe Ross and his 06' season as a fluke.

Redsland
04-10-2007, 03:34 PM
See me in 100 PA.

But, yeah, it bears watching.

runfreelrun
04-10-2007, 03:49 PM
He is no rookie. 2003 124 abs .258 avg. 2004 165 abs .170 avg (that is no mistake) 2005 230 abs .240 avg. Last year pre all star break .311 avg. and post all star break .203 avg. If you look at all his career numbers he is a weak second half contributor. If this was week one of his career in the bigs I would not be concerned, but this guy is who he is, a poor offensive player with average to above average power. I just think he is no long term answer and he is possiably a short term problem and we must address this as we have no real depth in our system at catcher (yes, that includes Perez, who will never be a hitter).

HumnHilghtFreel
04-10-2007, 03:51 PM
Any good catching prospects in the draft this year?

Red Leader
04-10-2007, 03:53 PM
Any good catching prospects in the draft this year?

There are a few. Hard to predict that ones that can stay behind the plate, though.

Dracodave
04-10-2007, 03:53 PM
Honestly, it's not his bat that is scaring me. It's his very shakey defense. I don't expect my catcher to be a McCann, Piazza, etc. but I do expect them to be able to call games, block balls and make catches.

edabbs44
04-10-2007, 03:53 PM
I remember when LaRue's 2006 season was viewed as just a small sample size. Before you know it...you're 8 games out and those small sample sizes are now gaping holes in your lineup.

HumnHilghtFreel
04-10-2007, 03:54 PM
Honestly, it's not his bat that is scaring me. It's his very shakey defense. I don't expect my catcher to be a McCann, Pizza, etc. but I do expect them to be able to call games, block balls and make catches.

Agreed, if he was playing solid D to date, it wouldn't be as bad. The dropped bunt/failed double play, not appealing the check swing ball last night. It just seems like his head isn't in the game too often.

justincredible
04-10-2007, 03:58 PM
At least get him out of the 7 hole and put Gonzo there.

In the games I've been watching Gonzo has been hitting 7th and Ross 8th.

flyer85
04-10-2007, 03:58 PM
the catching problem is that there are three of 'em.

Dracodave
04-10-2007, 03:59 PM
Thanks for quoting me, I had a typo and caught it!

Anyway, I think so much is missed when offense comes into play. Honestly, you're first-base offensive is the worst right now. You shouldn't have to platoon, get a solid stop gap..His name was Craig Wilson. That also means he comes off the bench as well as a power bat which right now, we lack.

BRM
04-10-2007, 03:59 PM
the catching problem is that there are three of 'em.

Three is a must for all contenders, isn't it? Especially when you have three quality ones.

Dracodave
04-10-2007, 04:01 PM
I remember when LaRue's 2006 season was viewed as just a small sample size. Before you know it...you're 8 games out and those small sample sizes are now gaping holes in your lineup.

LaRue was still injured, but like a trooper he played. I can't take his heart away from him, Larue may never bat over .250, but his defense right now..pales Ross period..

flyer85
04-10-2007, 04:01 PM
Three is a must for all contenders, isn't it? I'm just pissed Corky isn't one of 'em. :bang:

Dracodave
04-10-2007, 04:02 PM
I'm just pissed Corky isn't one of 'em. :bang:

Two words..

Dane Sardinha.

UK Reds Fan
04-10-2007, 04:02 PM
the catching problem is that there are three of 'em.

Totally agreed...to have Ross and Moeller makes little to no sense.

Like having Milli and Vanilli. Both were frauds, but if you going to keep one, you surely don't need the other.:laugh:

Tom Servo
04-10-2007, 04:03 PM
See me in 100 PA.

But, yeah, it bears watching.
Agreed on both points.

BRM
04-10-2007, 04:04 PM
Dane or Corky? Tough choice there.

OesterPoster
04-10-2007, 04:05 PM
If he keeps playing poorly, maybe he'll suddenly "develop" an injury and be placed on the DL the same day someone else is supposed to come off the DL?

;)

Dracodave
04-10-2007, 04:05 PM
Dane or Corky? Tough choice there.

Add in a third name..

Kelley Stinnet.. ;)

flyer85
04-10-2007, 04:08 PM
Dane or Corky? Tough choice there.has to be Corky. I did get some perverse pleasure out of watching a MLB player who I might have actually been able to beat in a footrace. Corky was even slower than Bo Diaz.

BRM
04-10-2007, 04:10 PM
has to be Corky. I did get some perverse pleasure out of watching a MLB player who I might have actually been able to beat in a footrace. Corky was even slower than Bo Diaz.

Plus his name is Corky. That's 10 bonus points just for the name.

edabbs44
04-10-2007, 04:13 PM
LaRue was still injured, but like a trooper he played. I can't take his heart away from him, Larue may never bat over .250, but his defense right now..pales Ross period..

Injued or not injured...he still wasn't helping a whole lot during 2006.

This is the problem with small sample sizes. I could go out there and be 0-25 and everyone can say "small sample size." Then I'll be 0-50 (or maybe 1-50, if I faced Cormier) and then everyone will say "this guy stinks." The problem is that there were 50 ABs now wasted on me.

After the 2006 ASB, Ross went .203/.325/.484 in 128 ABs. In Sept/Oct, he went .185/.281/.389. Sample sizes aren't that small any more.

The guy has absolutely zero track record to say "small sample size." If he was Vlad and had a bad first week or 2, then it is a small sample size. But for Ross, there is no reason to think that this is because of a small sample size.

I am now officially sick of writing "small sample size." I will now refer to them as "SSS". Thank you.

Dracodave
04-10-2007, 04:17 PM
The guy has absolutely zero track record to say "small sample size." If he was Vlad and had a bad first week or 2, then it is a small sample size. But for Ross, there is no reason to think that this is because of a small sample size.


Edabbs, you are actually very close to what I am aiming at. I am getting past his offense myself, but I was attacking his defense. His defense to me is the reason why he should be batting .340 right now.

Triple S for anyone right now is a overstatement, Ross has no triple S. He was decent for half a year, you are right. We are kinda on the same agruement with just different points. But Heeey, I'm glad we agree. :p:

flyer85
04-10-2007, 04:24 PM
The really amusing part of the catching situation is this.

I think we all thought the trade of Larue, for which the Reds got nothing and sent along $3M, signaled the end of the three headed catching monster.

Who today would say the Reds are better off for sending away Larue and replacing him with Moeller?

I liked Larue who was a good performer for the Reds if you toss out the season that wasn't(2006). To give him away and then replace him with Moeller is the height of absurdity.

BRM
04-10-2007, 04:27 PM
Supposedly, Larue was a malcontent who wouldn't accept a backup role. Plus, the Reds saved $2M. That $2M was critical in landing Jeff Conine.

Highlifeman21
04-10-2007, 04:29 PM
The Reds need to go out and trade for either a legitimate catcher, or a legitimate catching prospect.

We have surplus in OF in the minors to trade, once Hopper is 100% healthy. That'll give us Hopper, Crosby, Dickerson and Stubbs as viable trading chips. I'm not advocating trading Stubbs for a C, as I think he's the best of those 4, but we do have some organizational OF depth, and we should do something with it.

We also have some organizational SP depth, aka Wood and Cueto who may or may not develop, and we should do something about it while they are still "prospects". Again, I'm not advocating trading Wood or Cueto for just a C, but I think if we can get a good return on one or both of them, and one of those players is a legitimate C, or a legitimate C prospect, then that's a trade that should be explored.

flyer85
04-10-2007, 04:30 PM
That'll give us Hopper, Crosby, Dickerson and Stubbs as viable trading chips. I think you're seriously overestimating the talent level of that group and Stuubs is not yet able to be traded.

BRM
04-10-2007, 04:31 PM
I don't think Hopper, Crosby, or Dickerson will bring anything of value in trade.

flyer85
04-10-2007, 04:35 PM
I don't think Hopper, Crosby, or Dickerson will bring anything of value in trade.that a mortal lock.

Dracodave
04-10-2007, 04:35 PM
We also have some organizational SP depth, aka Wood and Cueto who may or may not develop, and we should do something about it while they are still "prospects". Again, I'm not advocating trading Wood or Cueto for just a C, but I think if we can get a good return on one or both of them, and one of those players is a legitimate C, or a legitimate C prospect, then that's a trade that should be explored.

Clement, Jeff.
Saltalamachia, Jarrod.
Walker, Neil.
Iannetta, Chris.
Montero, Miguel.


We can take three of those names off with Montero, Walker and Iannetta. Clement might be a long-shot, but Seatle..is well...seatle?

Highlifeman21
04-10-2007, 04:38 PM
I think you're seriously overestimating the talent level of that group and Stuubs is not yet able to be traded.

I didn't say that group would bring much in a trade. Just that we have OF depth.

I don't want to see us trade Stubbs just for a C, but clearly he's the best of that group.

flyer85
04-10-2007, 04:43 PM
I didn't say that group would bring much in a trade. Just that we have OF depth.Crosby, Hopper and Dickerson are closer to flotsam than "depth". They profile to be fringe major leaguers at best, 25th roster spot types.

I am all for trading Stubbs for anything of real value.

BRM
04-10-2007, 04:44 PM
Crosby, Hopper and Dickerson are closer to flotsam than "depth". They profile to be fringe major leaguers at best, 25th roster spot types.

I am all for trading Stubbs for anything of real value.

Is it better to be flotsam or jetsam?

Dracodave
04-10-2007, 04:44 PM
Then swing a trade with people like Dumatrait for a catcher. Pitchers we aren't going to use. Does it make sense to hold them on for depth is they aren't going to some playing time?

flyer85
04-10-2007, 04:45 PM
Is it better to be flotsam or jetsam?jetsam

BRM
04-10-2007, 04:47 PM
You guys are panicking too early. Krivsky said Moeller was a better hitter than his career numbers indicate. We should give him 250-300 plate appearances and let him ignite the offense. ;)

flyer85
04-10-2007, 04:50 PM
You guys are panicking too early. Krivsky said Moeller was a better hitter than his career numbers indicate. We should give him 250-300 plate appearances and let him ignite the offense. ;)"always look on the bright side of life"

Dracodave
04-10-2007, 04:50 PM
You guys are panicking too early. Krivsky said Moeller was a better hitter than his career numbers indicate. We should give him 250-300 plate appearances and let him ignite the offense. ;)

Moeller is a better defender per say than Ross..

How about Robby Hammok from Arizona? He caught Randy Johnsons perfect game..

Maybe he has a few in him for Arroyo, Harrang and if we're lucky Milton?? :laugh:

BRM
04-10-2007, 04:53 PM
"always look on the bright side of life"

"bet on below replacement level"

Dracodave
04-10-2007, 04:54 PM
"bet on below replacement level"

"People love the underdog"

bthomasiscool
04-10-2007, 04:58 PM
My opinion? While he has been looking pretty bad in some plate appearances, he also has had many at-bats in which he has hit the ball pretty hard, seems like he has just missed it many times. Defense wise, he's very adequate in terms of keeping the baserunners in check. He's not the type that will allow too many passed balls in the season; the biggest problem he had last year it seemed like was keeping hold of the ball during plays at the plate. He's going to come around. He's probably not the future, but he's solid, and will come around.

Red Leader
04-10-2007, 04:59 PM
"always look on the bright side of life"

Just keep swimming, just keep swimming....

http://www.aboutgerman.net/AGNimages/nemodory.jpg

flyer85
04-10-2007, 05:08 PM
He's going to come around. That's what the Reds are betting on, that 2006 wasn't just a fluke.

DannyB
04-10-2007, 05:46 PM
Supposedly, Larue was a malcontent who wouldn't accept a backup role. Plus, the Reds saved $2M. That $2M was critical in landing Jeff Conine.

Saved $2 mil?Whats Ross and Moeller costing these days?

BRM
04-10-2007, 05:49 PM
Saved $2 mil?Whats Ross and Moeller costing these days?

For 2007:

Ross - $1.6M
Moeller - $700K

Cicero
04-10-2007, 08:01 PM
Steps to trade for a pitching prospect:

1. Look at the Nationals best catching prospect.

2. Identify a fast but worthless guy in your own organization. (think Pokey Reese without the glove)

3. Call Bowden and that not only does the guy have five tools, but he wears leather pants and listens to Rod Stewart.

4. Tell Bowden you can only do the deal if he throws in a starting pitcherbe cause five tool players do not grow on trees, and five tool players that wear leather pants and listen to Rod Stewart are even rarer. (Bonus points if you play "If you think I'm sexy" in the back ground while on the phone.

Dracodave
04-10-2007, 08:03 PM
Steps to trade for a pitching prospect:

1. Look at the Nationals best catching prospect.

2. Identify a fast but worthless guy in your own organization. (think Pokey Reese without the glove)

3. Call Bowden and that not only does the guy have five tools, but he wears leather pants and listens to Rod Stewart.

4. Tell Bowden you can only do the deal if he throws in a starting pitcherbe cause five tool players do not grow on trees, and five tool players that wear leather pants and listen to Rod Stewart are even rarer. (Bonus points if you play "If you think I'm sexy" in the back ground while on the phone.

And then discover both the pitcher and catcher have shoulder injuries and may never amount to crap in the majors?

I'd call Bavasi and say "Milton for Clement...Okay?". Bavasi would cream himself for Milton..Just saying.

Cicero
04-10-2007, 08:18 PM
And then discover both the pitcher and catcher have shoulder injuries and may never amount to crap in the majors?

I'd call Bavasi and say "Milton for Clement...Okay?". Bavasi would cream himself for Milton..Just saying.

But in the end all you risk is a "five tool" Rod Stewart fan. Low risk, high reward potential.

Dracodave
04-10-2007, 08:25 PM
But in the end all you risk is a "five tool" Rod Stewart fan. Low risk, high reward potential.

I don't really trust Bowden though, haven't for years.

membengal
04-11-2007, 11:54 AM
Altanta is set at C with McCann. What about their former hotshot prospect Saltmacchia? (not sure on spelling) If he's blocked, and I think he now is, maybe there is a deal to be made with the Braves...

gobucks106
04-11-2007, 02:29 PM
I'm not sold on Valentin either, how do you call or allow a 3-1 pitch with an open base to Tracy get hit for a three run Johnson. As a catcher you can't allow that to happen.

Red Leader
04-11-2007, 02:34 PM
I'm not sold on Valentin either, how do you call or allow a 3-1 pitch with an open base to Tracy get hit for a three run Johnson. As a catcher you can't allow that to happen.

While I'm hardly a Valentin supporter, just the opposite in fact, Valentin did not throw the pitch. He also called other pitches in that at-bat only to be shook off by Lohse on several occasions. That whole AB as far as I'm concerned is all on Lohse. And that was one of the worst pitched AB's I can recall in recent history.

I've been in situations where I've called for a pitch, the pitcher would shake me off and throw what he wanted. In fact, I've had it happen so often in one game where I called a pitch, the pitcher shook me off, threw what he wanted, and it got absolutely hammered. Then I'd go up to the pitcher after the inning and tell him bluntly what I thought of his decision. That usually put an end to him shaking me off. If that's what happened to Valentin in that Tracy AB, good for him. I just hope he pulled Lohse aside after the inning to tell him what an ______ he was. I did notice that Lohse didn't shake him off nearly as much after that AB.

jojo
04-11-2007, 02:36 PM
but does anyone else think we should ship some surplus pitching and add a quality bat behind the plate?

That would be a great idea if the Reds had surplus pitching to send...

BuckeyeRedleg
04-11-2007, 02:37 PM
Moeller - $700K

To quote Jim O'Brien:

This is sad.

jojo
04-11-2007, 02:38 PM
And then discover both the pitcher and catcher have shoulder injuries and may never amount to crap in the majors?

I'd call Bavasi and say "Milton for Clement...Okay?". Bavasi would cream himself for Milton..Just saying.

I know you've just been promoted, but you should wait until the celebratory alcohol wears off before ya start posting again...

:beerme:

Dracodave
04-11-2007, 04:20 PM
I know you've just been promoted, but you should wait until the celebratory alcohol wears off before ya start posting again...

:beerme:

It was one of those moments where I thought that out hoping someone would go "YEAH!!! Wait a second...Clement for Milton??"

coachw513
04-11-2007, 04:24 PM
Injued or not injured...he still wasn't helping a whole lot during 2006.

This is the problem with small sample sizes. I could go out there and be 0-25 and everyone can say "small sample size." Then I'll be 0-50 (or maybe 1-50, if I faced Cormier) and then everyone will say "this guy stinks." The problem is that there were 50 ABs now wasted on me.

After the 2006 ASB, Ross went .203/.325/.484 in 128 ABs. In Sept/Oct, he went .185/.281/.389. Sample sizes aren't that small any more.

The guy has absolutely zero track record to say "small sample size." If he was Vlad and had a bad first week or 2, then it is a small sample size. But for Ross, there is no reason to think that this is because of a small sample size.

I am now officially sick of writing "small sample size." I will now refer to them as "SSS". Thank you.

I'm not quite as prepared to throw Ross under the bus, but your point about this season beginning much as last year ended is very valid...especially when combined with the fact he "broke out" last year in the 1st half with numbers way beyond his norm...

I personally always want a catcher who's a catcher first...if Ross is solid behind the plate, calls a good game and handles the staff well, anything he does with the bat is gravy for me...and no, I cannot quantify if he IS indeed doing those things...

coachw513
04-11-2007, 04:25 PM
I know you've just been promoted, but you should wait until the celebratory alcohol wears off before ya start posting again...

:beerme:

:thumbup: