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View Full Version : Josh Hamilton comparable to Grady Sizemore?



Homer Bailey
04-11-2007, 01:00 PM
Granted we've only seen him start one game, but does Hamilton remind anyone else of Sizemore? A good leadoff hitter that has all the tools, and can certainly hit for power. They're both young and "crowd favorites" if you will, especially with the ladies. I might even go as far as saying that Hamilton shows a little more plate discipline and sees more pitches. I have no numbers to back that up, just observation.

Any chance Hamilton is in the lineup tonight? Just picked him up in fantasy and I want to play him! Maybe in place of Jr.?

Degenerate39
04-11-2007, 01:26 PM
No one really reminds me of Hamilton. To me he's Josh Hamilton when I look at him.

And I'm not sure if he's going to play tonight or not. I hope he does.

BuckeyeRedleg
04-11-2007, 01:35 PM
Just for the heck of it, I pulled up Sizemore in the Cube. I was surprised how bad he was up until 2002 (before he was dealt to the Tribe).

Ages 18, 19, and 20 = Rookie, Low A and Hi A.......

912 AB's
3 HR
101 RBI
57 of 79 SB
.271 AVG
.371 OBP
.718 OPS

In 2002 , he goes in the trade to Cleveland's high A (Kinston) and tears it up for the rest of the summer.

Then proceeds to be fairly average in 2003 and 2004 at AA (Akron) and AAA (Buffalo). Look at the numbers. Nothing, not even SB's stands out in those two years.

How this guy all of a sudden became a star is amazing. As for the comparison to Hamilton. Sizemore is a year younger and already has a pretty good head start, but Hamilton and him do have similar games from an athletic standpoint. Don't get me wrong, Josh still has some work to do, but If and that's a big IF he ever can became a Sizemore type, I would say he's 2-3 years away at minimum.....

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/S/Grady-Sizemore.shtml

dunner13
04-11-2007, 01:52 PM
I think larry walker might be a decent comparison. Hamilton has the potential to hit for above average and above power. With good defence and good speed. He is truly a 5 tool player.

Homer Bailey
04-11-2007, 02:29 PM
By no means did I mean that Hamilton is at Sizemore's level yet. I should have made that more clear.

BuckeyeRedleg
04-11-2007, 02:36 PM
By no means did I mean that Hamilton is at Sizemore's level yet. I should have made that more clear.

I think your post was pretty clear. Hamilton has a similar game to Sizemore and can he reach that level? I agree that there is a valid comparison there.

Personally, I think "The Natural" can and will get to that level in a couple years. Just a gut feeling.

bucksfan2
04-11-2007, 02:51 PM
One of the differences that I see between the two is that Cleveland is an organizatoin who has given their younger players a chance to succeed. A younger player with talent is put in the lineup everyday and left in their to play. This leads to the development of players. They accept that young players are going to have some bumps in the road but realize that in the end it will be beneficial to not only the player but also the ball club. The reds on the other hand are content with status quo. They have shown to be unwilling to play a rookie over a veteran. They are unwilling to take a few lumps in order to improve in the long run. Sure Aurilla had a decent season last year but in retrospect wouldn't you have rather had EE get as many ab's last year as possible?

Chip R
04-11-2007, 02:58 PM
One of the differences that I see between the two is that Cleveland is an organizatoin who has given their younger players a chance to succeed. A younger player with talent is put in the lineup everyday and left in their to play. This leads to the development of players. They accept that young players are going to have some bumps in the road but realize that in the end it will be beneficial to not only the player but also the ball club. The reds on the other hand are content with status quo. They have shown to be unwilling to play a rookie over a veteran. They are unwilling to take a few lumps in order to improve in the long run. Sure Aurilla had a decent season last year but in retrospect wouldn't you have rather had EE get as many ab's last year as possible?


That's just crazy talk. ;)

Joseph
04-11-2007, 03:30 PM
That's just crazy talk. ;)

Chip, stop pointing out the flaws of other organizations. We all know Cleveland has had no success since 1954 or whatever. Their methodology for completing a roster and starting line up is ludicrous [and I don't mean the rapper]. We will no doubt reach the play offs a dozen times before their next appearance!

REDREAD
04-11-2007, 03:32 PM
Sure Aurilla had a decent season last year but in retrospect wouldn't you have rather had EE get as many ab's last year as possible?


Great point. The problem with the Cast regime seems to be that they would rather play about 500 ball every year, instead of trying to get better for the longterm.

Just look at this past offseason. Wayne did well in the rule V draft, but other than that, Sarloos is really the only acquision that could be considered young.

paulrichjr
04-11-2007, 04:19 PM
Just for the heck of it, I pulled up Sizemore in the Cube. I was surprised how bad he was up until 2002 (before he was dealt to the Tribe).

Ages 18, 19, and 20 = Rookie, Low A and Hi A.......

912 AB's
3 HR
101 RBI
57 of 79 SB
.271 AVG
.371 OBP
.718 OPS

In 2002 , he goes in the trade to Cleveland's high A (Kinston) and tears it up for the rest of the summer.

Then proceeds to be fairly average in 2003 and 2004 at AA (Akron) and AAA (Buffalo). Look at the numbers. Nothing, not even SB's stands out in those two years.

How this guy all of a sudden became a star is amazing. As for the comparison to Hamilton. Sizemore is a year younger and already has a pretty good head start, but Hamilton and him do have similar games from an athletic standpoint. Don't get me wrong, Josh still has some work to do, but If and that's a big IF he ever can became a Sizemore type, I would say he's 2-3 years away at minimum.....

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/S/Grady-Sizemore.shtml

It was my understanding that Sizemore was projected to be very good (not as good as he is but very good) even though the numbers didn't back it up. I think he is an example of how scouting can work over just looking at numbers. I remember when the deal went down that the talk was Sizemore could be the best player in the deal long-term even though Phillips was considered to be a future star.

lollipopcurve
04-11-2007, 04:33 PM
It was my understanding that Sizemore was projected to be very good (not as good as he is but very good) even though the numbers didn't back it up. I think he is an example of how scouting can work over just looking at numbers. I remember when the deal went down that the talk was Sizemore could be the best player in the deal long-term even though Phillips was considered to be a future star.

Exactly. Sizemore has been considered a possible star throughout his professional career, despite his having less than dominant minor league numbers. Minor league numbers can be deceiving.

Hamilton and Sizemore have several similarities, but time on task is not one of them. Hamilton will need many hundreds of ABs and games to have a chance of catching up to where Sizemore is. I doubt he can get there. Sizemore is really, really good.

Always Red
04-11-2007, 04:36 PM
Great point. The problem with the Cast regime seems to be that they would rather play about 500 ball every year, instead of trying to get better for the longterm.

Just look at this past offseason. Wayne did well in the rule V draft, but other than that, Sarloos is really the only acquision that could be considered young.

I respectfully disagree, RED. Cast has only owned the team for a little over a year, and has had one offseason. In retrospect, the decision to stay out of the market was a good one, given the astronomical salaries; everyone is hanging onto their youngsters because they're cheaper and have more upside than most vets do.

You say he did well with Rule V this year, and I agree- in fact he did great, with acquiring both Hamilton and Burton. I can see Hammy in CF for the next 10 years, batting third, and Burton becoming the closer, in time. Not bad for getting two young guys from outside the organization, nearly major league ready, in the offseason. We'll see what the next draft brings,and how the guys drafted last year do.

O'B gets a lot of flack here, sometimes from me too, but the guy did draft well.
There is some help down below, in Bailey, Votto, Bruce.

Catching is a glaring need in this organization. I'd love to see him address that very soon.

Spring~Fields
04-11-2007, 04:42 PM
One of the differences that I see between the two is that Cleveland is an organizatoin who has given their younger players a chance to succeed. A younger player with talent is put in the lineup everyday and left in their to play. This leads to the development of players. They accept that young players are going to have some bumps in the road but realize that in the end it will be beneficial to not only the player but also the ball club. The reds on the other hand are content with status quo. They have shown to be unwilling to play a rookie over a veteran. They are unwilling to take a few lumps in order to improve in the long run. Sure Aurilla had a decent season last year but in retrospect wouldn't you have rather had EE get as many ab's last year as possible?

I don’t have any problems with what you’re trying to communicate to us.

It seems to me that if what I read is true from many of you daily in Redszone, that each of the current Reds players all have “bumps” or holes in their games, regardless of their last name or experience. If that is true then I struggle with not giving Hamilton ample playing time regardless of what “bumps” he might bring. Hamilton potentially has all the “tools”.

Which current Reds player with their “bumps” and holes in their game can we really say that about today? I can’t see any valid reason for Hamilton sitting on the bench most days while it really would not hurt to give some of the other bumps a day off.

RedsManRick
04-11-2007, 04:54 PM
In terms of skill set, I think he has more power than Sizemore. It's impossible to predict statlines given his lack of history, but in terms of raw skills, the only question in my mind is his contact rate / BA. His approach at the plate is simply amazing given how few ABs he's had.

I'd love to see a:

Freel (2B)
Hamilton
Dunn
EE
Junior
BP (SS)
Hat/Conine
Ross/Valentin

lineup at some point in time. That is by far our best offensive lineup and not bad defensively either. If we get a lead with it come the 6th inning and the pitcher's spot up, we shift Freel to RF, throw AGone at SS, and BP to 2B. Or you start AGone at SS, have Freel off the bench as your PH/PR when the starter is ready to go and go from there. We could really use Hamilton's power and patience in the lineup until he proves it's not for real.

I'm drooling already.

Wheelhouse
04-11-2007, 05:15 PM
Sizemore? I think people underplay what Hamilton can be--everyone seems to forget, he was NOT just the #1 pick in '99. He was considered by many scouts to be the best prospect of his generation. There were scouts who said he was a better prospect than Griffey or A-Rod. And those guys were ML ready in their teens. We're seeing Hamilton's enormous talent in being able to come back after 4-years after only having played A-ball. I'd be happy if he just stays on the roster this year--I don't care if he hits .250. But people should keep in mind he is a 26 year old with franchise changing talent. It may not be manifest this year, but he could be an MVP-type player, not just Grady Sizemore. I understand people are frightened of building up a player too much (why? I couldn't tell you. It's almost as if people speak as if they have the responsibility of a GM rather than a fan. Ha!). But in the case of Hamilton, he was universally thought of by scouts to have the talent of a Big Ticket Item. Not a just a "nice player."

WMR
04-11-2007, 05:21 PM
Way more power than Sizemore.

Spring~Fields
04-11-2007, 05:27 PM
Way more power than Sizemore.

More power than Freel ? ;)

bucksfan2
04-11-2007, 05:31 PM
In terms of skill set, I think he has more power than Sizemore. It's impossible to predict statlines given his lack of history, but in terms of raw skills, the only question in my mind is his contact rate / BA. His approach at the plate is simply amazing given how few ABs he's had.

I'd love to see a:

Freel (2B)
Hamilton
Dunn
EE
Junior
BP (SS)
Hat/Conine
Ross/Valentin

lineup at some point in time. That is by far our best offensive lineup and not bad defensively either. If we get a lead with it come the 6th inning and the pitcher's spot up, we shift Freel to RF, throw AGone at SS, and BP to 2B. Or you start AGone at SS, have Freel off the bench as your PH/PR when the starter is ready to go and go from there. We could really use Hamilton's power and patience in the lineup until he proves it's not for real.

I'm drooling already.

I disagree a little with you. I do not like the idea of moving Freel to 2B late in the game for defensive purposes. I just dont think that he is all that good of an infielder. Defensively AGone and Phillips up the middle is a very good combination. If I were the manager of this club here is the lineup I would run out there every day.

Hamilton CF Has shown great plate awareness and has some speed to lead off
Phillips 2B Has some pop as well as a good baserunner. Want to see what he can do with protection
Dunn LF
EE 3B would hit him 3 but like to break up the left handers
Griffey RF Is hitting the ball to all fields right now. Just imagine when his wrist becomes fully healthy
Votto 1B Let me dream
Gonzo SS Very very good defensively
Ross C hopefully he can bring something together offensively.

Freel - I use as baserunner, double switch player, and spot starter 3-4 times a week.
Hatty/Conine - One of these players needs to be moved before the trading deadline
Valentine - Back up catcher
Hopper - Need some speed other speed on this club besides Freel
Castro - Golden hands has a MLB contract and can be used late games at 3b

WMR
04-11-2007, 05:37 PM
More power than Freel ? ;)

Freel maybe, but not Farney. :laugh:

RedsManRick
04-11-2007, 05:43 PM
I disagree a little with you. I do not like the idea of moving Freel to 2B late in the game for defensive purposes. I just dont think that he is all that good of an infielder. Defensively AGone and Phillips up the middle is a very good combination. If I were the manager of this club here is the lineup I would run out there every day.

Freel would not be at 2B late in the game in my plan. He would either go from 2B at the start to the OF later (AGone to SS, BP to 2B, Freel to LF/RF) or he we come in directly to the OF later in the game as a PH/PR and defensive replacement for Dunn or Junior.

4256 Hits
04-11-2007, 10:34 PM
Heck why not compair him to Willie Mays! These are big expectations for a guy that just hit his first home run in 5 years and has 1 MLB hit in his life.

Doro
04-11-2007, 10:37 PM
Sizemore has a bit more speed than Hamilton but Hamilton definately has more power. I think its a very good comparision though.

REDREAD
04-12-2007, 01:38 PM
I respectfully disagree, RED. Cast has only owned the team for a little over a year, and has had one offseason. In retrospect, the decision to stay out of the market was a good one, given the astronomical salaries; everyone is hanging onto their youngsters because they're cheaper and have more upside than most vets do.

I'd argue that the Reds contributed to the astronomical salaries. They overpaid for Gonzo and Stanton. Weathers was paid highly, but I can accept that easier because he is the closer by default and had a pretty decent year (although I've seen a good argument that his periferals were weak last year).

Look over all our offseason moves. They were primarily designed to patch up the team for this year. No impact players, just expensive stopgaps.
I would've much rather the team blow a chunk of that money on Lily or even Soriano.. get a guy that will actually make a difference, as opposed to spending over 30 million on mediocre, filler guys.. If you have to cut Lohse or forgo signing Stanton/Gonzo to get Lily, so be it.

I'm saying that this past offseason is similiar to DanO's big spending spree in terms of actual talent brought in. They were moves designed to make the team respectable, but not actually contend.







You say he did well with Rule V this year, and I agree- in fact he did great, with acquiring both Hamilton and Burton. I can see Hammy in CF for the next 10 years, batting third, and Burton becoming the closer, in time. Not bad for getting two young guys from outside the organization, nearly major league ready, in the offseason. We'll see what the next draft brings,and how the guys drafted last year do.

They were both good picks, although Burton could easily become the next Joe Valentine as he could be closing.. But that's ok, the Reds need to grab any high upside young talent that they can get. I love the fact that they are giving the 12th pitcher slot to a rule V guy. I've been wanting them to do that for years. They should rule V the best pitcher available every year. I'm not saying they should always keep the guy, but they should at least try.






O'B gets a lot of flack here, sometimes from me too, but the guy did draft well.
There is some help down below, in Bailey, Votto, Bruce.

Catching is a glaring need in this organization. I'd love to see him address that very soon.

I think Wayne mishandled the whole catching thing poorly. It was dumb to give away LaRue to only save 2 million this year.

It's too early to tell if the 2007 team is better than the team that opened the 2006 season, IMO. Wayne has made some good moves, but he's also made some stinkers.

As far as Cast goes, it's too early to judge him. I really dislike that he kept Allen, despite cleaning out most of the other dreck from the Lindner era. Even though Allen was demoted, he should not be in charge of the business side. Allen is incompetent. They need to bring in someone that knows how to negotiate media deals and knows how to market. Any accountant can balance the Reds' checkbook. We need someone with skills beyond that.

So, I've seen some good things from Cast. Enough to give hope, but let's see if he's really commited to building a legit winner, or if he's happy to balance payroll vs ticket sales. That is the way Allen thinks. After one year, attendence had declined, and Allen told the press that it was ok that attendence declined, because ticket price increases offset the declining attendence.. Allen obviously had no concern at all about the eroding fan base or the long term health of the franchise. He made his numbers for the year, so he was happy.

Chip R
04-12-2007, 01:49 PM
Heck why not compair him to Willie Mays! These are big expectations for a guy that just hit his first home run in 5 years and has 1 MLB hit in his life.


Mays went 0-25 before he got a hit - which was a HR off Warren Spahn. So, yeah, the comparisons to Mays are unfair. ;)

Highlifeman21
04-12-2007, 03:10 PM
One of the differences that I see between the two is that Cleveland is an organizatoin who has given their younger players a chance to succeed. A younger player with talent is put in the lineup everyday and left in their to play. This leads to the development of players. They accept that young players are going to have some bumps in the road but realize that in the end it will be beneficial to not only the player but also the ball club. The reds on the other hand are content with status quo. They have shown to be unwilling to play a rookie over a veteran. They are unwilling to take a few lumps in order to improve in the long run. Sure Aurilla had a decent season last year but in retrospect wouldn't you have rather had EE get as many ab's last year as possible?

Unless you're Brandon Phillips.

He wasn't given much of a chance by the Cleveland organization.

Topcat
04-13-2007, 04:47 AM
Josh Hamilton will be "the Josh Hamilton" as yet undefined but shows the ability's:cool: to redefine the position of CF :cool: