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dfs
04-11-2007, 09:07 PM
Saarloos...8 games...he's been in 6 of them.
Santos has been in half of them.
Coffey and Stanton have been in 5 of 8.

Last Night Coffey threw 5 pitches.
Stanton threw 4.

Mind you the wear of warming up is the same. To the arm an appearance is an appearance.

We're going to get to June and suddenly these guys will start to drop like flies. The media will then talk about how nobody could have seen this coming and what a great job Jerry Narron is doing considering the circumstances and injuries.

For this organizaiton to succeed, they have to get his bullpen usage tendancies under control. Longer outings. More regular roles.

Falls City Beer
04-11-2007, 09:12 PM
For this organizaiton to succeed, they have to get his bullpen usage tendancies under control. Longer outings. More regular roles.

Better starters. Guys who will give you 6 innings guaranteed every outing.

Chip R
04-11-2007, 09:14 PM
I agree. I made the same point last week. Only then we had only lost once so nobody cared. :)


Better starters. Guys who will give you 6 innings guaranteed every outing.


But that doesn't solve the problem. Every starter last week till Saturday went at least 6 innings. But Narron was blowing through that bullpen like it was Game 7 of the World Series. I think even LaRussa called him and said, "Dude, you're overusing your bullpen." ;)

reds44
04-11-2007, 09:15 PM
Better starters. Guys who will give you 6 innings guaranteed every outing.
Uhh, Milton and Harang are the only 2 guys not to go 6 innings so far, and both of them went 5 and 2/3rds.

Falls City Beer
04-11-2007, 09:16 PM
Uhh, Milton and Harang are the only 2 guys not to go 6 innings so far, and both of them went 5 and 2/3rds.

Oh just wait...

When these starters (Lohse and the untested Belisle) start facing tough offenses, Katie bar the door.

reds44
04-11-2007, 09:18 PM
Oh just wait...

When these starters (Lohse and the untested Belisle) start facing tough offenses, Katie bar the door.
That's fine if and when that happens, but it hasn't yet.

Falls City Beer
04-11-2007, 09:20 PM
That's fine if and when that happens, but it hasn't yet.

You mean in the way it hadn't happened in all those other Aprils in this decade?

Three real starters = stability. Two = constantly flirting with entropy.

edabbs44
04-11-2007, 09:23 PM
You mean in the way it hadn't happened in all those other Aprils in this decade?

Three real starters = stability. Two = constantly flirting with entropy.

True.

http://www.duncans.tv/images/budweiser-whassup.jpg

reds44
04-11-2007, 09:24 PM
You mean in the way it hadn't happened in all those other Aprils in this decade?

Three real starters = stability. Two = constantly flirting with entropy.
2 is a helluva lot better then we've had for awhile. How many years was none? Matt Belisle is a guy that could make it 3.

Falls City Beer
04-11-2007, 09:27 PM
Matt Belisle is a guy that could make it 3.

And so could Elizardo....

edabbs44
04-11-2007, 09:31 PM
2 is a helluva lot better then we've had for awhile. How many years was none? Matt Belisle is a guy that could make it 3.

I'm not picking on you, but I'm tired of people saying things like "2 is better than what we've had in the past." Be happy with 2 above decent starters. I'm not satisfied with mediocrity.

RedsMan3203
04-12-2007, 12:51 AM
Come June we'll swap out some players....

Bray, Magic will be good to go....

Call up Livingston and Bailey....

The Lizzard can be used....

dabvu2498
04-12-2007, 08:43 AM
3 off days in April can give the staff more flexibility as well. Only one in May, but 4 in June (that's odd).

PuffyPig
04-12-2007, 09:29 AM
Our bullpen is currently on pace for the following innings:

Stanton 54
Cormier 20
Santos 54
Saarloos 76
Coffey 78
Weathers 102
Coutlangus 30

When your staters are giving you an average of 6.4 innings per start, you can utilize your bullpen much less. At this time, only Weathers has pitched more innings than you would like.

The reason that Narron can go with shorter outings for his bullpen is because he hasn't needed to use them that much. This gets more relief pitvchers some work (to stay sharp), but more importantly, it has allowed Narron to get favourable matchups (especially with our LH relievers) which has made them more effective.

I remember last year when the overworked bullpen forced guys like Shackleford to pitch multiple innings against RH hitters. It was courting disaster. As long as Shackleford faced LH hitters only, he was fine. Force him to face RH hitters and the roof will cave in. Same goes for guys like Cormier and Countlangus.

coachw513
04-12-2007, 09:42 AM
I must confess to not being able to know this answer...are most of these guys capable of more regular, shorter outings or is it indeed more treacherous in the long run???...

I personally haven't felt the bullpen being overused...you can see a bit of role definition going on (Weathers closer, Saarloos and Stanton 8th inning guys, Coutlangus and Santos LH/RH specialists, Cormier and Coffey 6th-7th inning guys)...I think Santos will be the long guy as needed right now...I think the flexibility of 3 LH is good and gives lots of options...

I think using guys 2 innings is more taxing over the long run, but smarter minds than mine will know for sure...

TRF
04-12-2007, 10:00 AM
Belisle with another OUTSTANDING start. He's the guy that has to be the breakout player for the Reds this year. Arroyo and Harang have to at least maintain the production of last year. And while everyone talks about how Milton is killing this team, and the pen, It's Lohse that I really worry about.

Lohse is healthy. He's just a bad pitcher. He's got an arm that'll throw upwards of 94-95 MPH, and teases the Manager with ability he doesn't really possess. He has no idea how to pitch, he just throws. Like M2, I don't listen when Milty pitches, but Lohse is such a crapshoot that I have to listen. Then when he ultimately lets the game get out of hand, usually after 5 innings or so, he ends up turning it over to the pen, revealing their shortcomings. Coutlangus is still an unknown, Cormier blows historically speaking. Stanton and Weathers are, well, OLD. Narron cannot run them out there everyday. He's going to have to rely on younger relievers like Coffey, Santos and Cout.

Narron is overusing the pen early, but for once he has viable alternatives in Louisville in Salmon, and even Bray and Maj if they ever get healthy. Plus there is always the idea of Bailey in the pen.

paulrichjr
04-12-2007, 10:55 AM
I think if the offense improves it would change the bullpen situation dramtically. I might be wrong but I think we have had a lot of close games early on this season. These close games means less willingness to let the starter go out there in the 8th or 9th inning. It would be nice to have one 8 to nothing game so that Harang, Belise or Arroyo could go the distance.

Hollcat
04-12-2007, 11:22 AM
Reds starters are 3rd in the league in IP and Arizona who is 1st with 2.2 more innings than the Reds have played one more game.
Reds relievers have pitched the 12th most innings in the league and have a 1.88era in 24 innings. The amazing Padre bullpen has pitched 28.1 scoreless innings, the Reds are next giving up only 5 earned runs.

Highlifeman21
04-12-2007, 01:40 PM
Better starters. Guys who will give you 6 innings guaranteed every outing.

We have 2 guys who after 6 guaranteed I like our odds to win 60+% of the time.

We have 2 guys who after 6 guaranteed I like our odds to win maybe 35-50% of the time.

And we have 1 guy who after 6 guaranteed I like our odds to win 0% of the time.

buckeyenut
04-12-2007, 08:57 PM
The other thing is the guy that is getting the most starts is the guy with the bigtime sinker. And the sinker is a pitch that gets better if you are a little tired if I understand correctly.

VR
04-12-2007, 09:37 PM
I will continue to give bullpen success to not just better arms, but the return of Tom Hume to the pen.