PDA

View Full Version : Edwin..



Ahhhorsepoo
04-11-2007, 11:18 PM
I just turned the game on and I am hearing how edwin deserves to be sat.. blah blah blah.. what in the boof did he do?

alexad
04-11-2007, 11:21 PM
I just turned the game on and I am hearing how edwin deserves to be sat.. blah blah blah.. what in the boof did he do?


He did not run out a pop up so according to Jim Day, Narron sat him down. He is sitting on the step at the end of the dugout pouting like my 7 year old after I spanked him and told him to sit down. THe rest of the team is up on the fence and he is over on the end looking pretty babyish right now.

BoCcc2832
04-11-2007, 11:23 PM
Good for Jerry. Edwin deserves to be sat down for the rest of the game. EE apparently forgot what a major leaguer is supposed to play like. Hopefully, the real EE will be back on Friday.

ed the red
04-11-2007, 11:23 PM
send him to the minors. He has options, and let him pout down there.

OnBaseMachine
04-11-2007, 11:23 PM
Jerry Narron is a hypocrite.

reds44
04-11-2007, 11:23 PM
He didn't know where the ball was, and he thought he fouled it back. He even turned around and looked behind the plate.

For some reason, just like last year, Narron feels the need to treat Edwin like the redheaded stepchild, and pulls him.

It was a joke of a move by Narron.

reds44
04-11-2007, 11:24 PM
Jerry Narron is a hypocrite.
And a bad manager.

jimbo
04-11-2007, 11:43 PM
Boy, EE could get away with murder on this board.

Matt700wlw
04-11-2007, 11:43 PM
Marty and Jeff recieved an email from Butcher confirming that Edwin was not benched due to injury (which confirms the run out thing).

Marty says - "so what about when Griffey jogs to first base all the time? Is he going to sit, or are there two different sets of rules on this team?"

reds44
04-11-2007, 11:44 PM
Marty and Jeff recieved an email from Butcher confirming that Edwin was not benched due to injury (which confirms the run out thing).

Marty says - "so what about when Griffey jogs to first base all the time? Is he going to sit, or are there two different sets of rules on this team?"
Mart is dead on

AND

Edwin didn't know where the ball was. He thought he fouled it back. It's completely different then what Junior does.

2001MUgrad
04-11-2007, 11:44 PM
So next time Griffey doesn't run out a pop up does he get benched?? I think not. Thats a BS double standard. I'm all for hustle and benching those who don't. But you cannot pick and chose who to enforce it on.

buckshotrod
04-11-2007, 11:45 PM
But Griffey gets a pass, huh? He hits one off the wall the other day and gets a single...AGAIN.. but does he pull Ken..NO! I love this team but it will not go anywhere when there is 2 sets of rules in regards to hustling.

:confused:

KronoRed
04-11-2007, 11:45 PM
Marty and Jeff recieved an email from Butcher confirming that Edwin was not benched due to injury (which confirms the run out thing).

Marty says - "so what about when Griffey jogs to first base all the time? Is he going to sit, or are there two different sets of rules on this team?"

Holy Spaghetti I agree with Marty:eek:

buckshotrod
04-11-2007, 11:48 PM
Can you email Marty when he is on the road???

WMR
04-11-2007, 11:48 PM
Holy Spaghetti I agree with Marty:eek:

I had to read it 2x to make sure!! :laugh:

Matt700wlw
04-11-2007, 11:50 PM
Mart is dead on

AND

Edwin didn't know where the ball was. He thought he fouled it back. It's completely different then what Junior does.

If you don't know where it is, shouldn't you worry about getting to first base instead of finding it. What if it drops in fair ground? If it's foul...you come back, if it's caught, you're out anyway.

I can see his point....(Jerry's)

dougdirt
04-11-2007, 11:51 PM
What happened with Griffey and Edwin were 2 completely different things.

1. Griffey trotted to first base on a hit that he thought was a HR but wasnt.

2. Edwin did not leave the box on a pop up to the second baseman. Edwin clearly had no clue where the ball was though, as he turned around and looked out of play for the ball behind the 1B dugout.

Always Red
04-11-2007, 11:51 PM
Jerry Narron is a hypocrite.

JN won't punish some of the guys who don't "hustle", so he does it to a guy that he's used to benching.

1. I think EE deserved this; you gotta run it out. No excuse for it.

2. I think you're right about JN being a hypocrite. BUT

3. One caveat of professional sports is that it is definitely NOT like high school sports in that you do not treat everyone the same way. Like kids (and I have 3 of them) they all have different buttons that you can push. JN absolutely will not bench Dunn or Griffey (not specifically, mind you, but just for example ;) ) for any hint of "non-hustle" but it pisses him off enough that he will do it to a 3rd year player. Too bad for EE that he sees what happens to others and thinks he can do it himself.

4. This really is the best lesson for EE. I hope he takes it to heart, learns from it, and moves on. He's gonna be a excellent ballplayer, very soon. I've been really impressed with the work he's done on defense since last year; he looks like a different 3B to me down there.

dougdirt
04-11-2007, 11:53 PM
With all of this though, I am real confident having Castro as my clean up hitter.....

Always Red
04-11-2007, 11:53 PM
Marty says - "so what about when Griffey jogs to first base all the time? Is he going to sit, or are there two different sets of rules on this team?"

Yes, there are two different sets of rules on this team.

And most teams, for that matter. That's just real life. Maybe it's not right, but that's how it works.

JohnnyBench
04-11-2007, 11:55 PM
Edwin clearly had no clue where the ball was
Can't that be said for all of his at bats this series?;)

guttle11
04-11-2007, 11:56 PM
I'm fine with disciplining Edwin, but not if it means your cleanup hitter for 8 innings is Juan Castro.

Heck, sit him for the entire series against Chicago if you have to, I don't care. This is an important game. Sometimes that takes precedent.

Matt700wlw
04-11-2007, 11:58 PM
Yes, there are two different sets of rules on this team.

And most teams, for that matter. That's just real life. Maybe it's not right, but that's how it works.

It is true...it isn't fair.

Northern Red
04-12-2007, 12:03 AM
I'm watching it on mlb.tv, and the Diamondbacks commentators where speculating this is what happened. Initially on the popup, Edwin did not know where it was. Then clearly he picked the ball up in the air, glance a look at the infield and back to the ball until it was caught. He didn't even move. Mark Grace even questioned if it was the right replay, thinking perhaps it was a flyball, but they were assured it was the out. Not only that, but EE clearly was looking to the middle of the infield. He absolutely knew what was going on and didn't make an attempt to even move toward 1st. In fact, he was back peddling away from the plate.

I love EE, but he was certifiably wrong on this one.

I just wish that kind of stance was taken more often with all of the players. The only difference I see is Jr.'s proclivity to get injured might be the only argument for his not running balls out. I'm of the mindset, however, if you're going to enforce a rule, it needs to be consistent with everyone.

But that's a fantasy world in sports today...

redsfan30
04-12-2007, 12:05 AM
They have Edwin on camera finding the ball, and watching Hudson catch it from the batters box.

Yes, initially he did not find the ball. But he is on camera watching the ball be caught from the box.

If it were one of the veterans on this team there would be 9 pages threads calling for thier release, but since it's the almighty Edwin, Narron's a moron who should be fired.

Go figure.

Krusty
04-12-2007, 12:07 AM
Even Sparky Anderson didn't have the same rules apply to everyone on the Big Red Machine.

Anyways, sitting Edwin down might be beneficial in the longhaul even it means losing this game. Teach a young player the right way to play the game. Isn't that what Narron supposedly preaches?

Always Red
04-12-2007, 12:09 AM
Even Sparky Anderson didn't have the same rules apply to everyone on the Big Red Machine.

Anyways, sitting Edwin down might be beneficial in the longhaul even it means losing this game. Teach a young player the right way to play the game. Isn't that what Narron supposedly preaches?

excellent points. And I do give Narron credit for practicing what he preaches. Narron's probably seen some things over the last week that he doesn't care for, and he has chosen Eddie's poor decision to make a point to the entire team.

REDblooded
04-12-2007, 12:10 AM
So when does Narron get benched for not having a clue 3/4s of the time?

Always Red
04-12-2007, 12:11 AM
So when does Narron get benched for not having a clue 3/4s of the time?

most probably mid- August, when this team is 10 games out of the lead.

BlfdVaFan
04-12-2007, 12:15 AM
Jr has always gotten a pass for much worse things than EE did. Most of you Junior lovers will defend him to the death and say he has a right because he will pull a muscle.........tell it to the rain

jimbo
04-12-2007, 12:18 AM
EE isn't a proven 37-year old veteran who has his hamstrings attached by screws. It makes total sense to give Griffey the benefit of the doubt on when he needs to run and not, just as any other veteran in baseball would get the same allowance. Two totally different situations.

CTA513
04-12-2007, 12:20 AM
They have Edwin on camera finding the ball, and watching Hudson catch it from the batters box.

Yes, initially he did not find the ball. But he is on camera watching the ball be caught from the box.

If it were one of the veterans on this team there would be 9 pages threads calling for thier release, but since it's the almighty Edwin, Narron's a moron who should be fired.

Go figure.

:devil:

;)

CTA513
04-12-2007, 12:21 AM
EE isn't a proven 37-year old veteran who has his hamstrings attached by screws. It makes total sense to give Griffey the benefit of the doubt on when he needs to run and not, just as any other veteran in baseball would get the same allowance. Two totally different situations.

Let veterans get away with stuff and the younger guys will also try to get away with it.

Blue
04-12-2007, 12:27 AM
Edwin up and greeting Phillips and Seabass when they got back to the dugout. Good to see.

jimbo
04-12-2007, 12:28 AM
Let veterans get away with stuff and the younger guys will also try to get away with it.

It isn't about getting away with anything, it's about common sense.

Tony Cloninger
04-12-2007, 12:29 AM
Like people have said......even Sparky had 2 sets of rules for the "stars" and the "others".....was it right/wrong? He gave more latitude to those who had produced over and over in the past. And rarely did those guys ever not hustle.

EE has looked lethargic at the plate these last 2 nights. He made a half-A effort on the bunt try and then again tried to pull an outside pitch.
Him and Phillips and Gonzo seem to forget that RF is part of the ballpark and you can hit it there...if they pitch you there.

jimbo
04-12-2007, 12:33 AM
Him and Phillips and Gonzo seem to forget that RF is part of the ballpark and you can hit it there...if they pitch you there.

I was thinking the same thing just watching Phillips bat. It made me remember how good Larkin was at advancing runners by hitting it to the right side.

MikeS21
04-12-2007, 12:36 AM
Let veterans get away with stuff and the younger guys will also try to get away with it.
And when the younger guys try to get away with it, you bench them just like Narron did.

The reason Junior is allowed to get away with giving 80%-90% at age 37 is because he gave 110% from ages 19-35. The sooner EE learns that, the better it will be for him.

Degenerate39
04-12-2007, 12:37 AM
I just turned the game on and I am hearing how edwin deserves to be sat.. blah blah blah.. what in the boof did he do?

No Hustle

dougdirt
04-12-2007, 12:42 AM
No Hustle

I disagree with that to an extent. He had no clue where the ball was until it was already on its way down. At that point he probably said something in his head that I cant type on this board and realized he messed up. That isn't 'no hustle' its 'oh crap I cant believe I just did that'.

RBA
04-12-2007, 12:42 AM
The FSN AZ replay was in SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW MO. That means the play was slow down so you can see what happened. Some here are acting like Ede stared at the play for several seconds rather than less than the half second it was.

Matt700wlw
04-12-2007, 12:45 AM
The FSN AZ replay was in SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW MO. That means the play was slow down so you can see what happened. Some here are acting like Ede stared at the play for several seconds rather than less than the half second it was.

So he stood in the box slower than he did in real time, what's your point?

RBA
04-12-2007, 12:51 AM
So he stood in the box slower than he did in real time, what's your point?

My point is that Edwin thought the ball was popped back out of play, by the time he got his bearings the play was over. That's all it is to it.

2001MUgrad
04-12-2007, 12:51 AM
Let veterans get away with stuff and the younger guys will also try to get away with it.


Exactly. The past 7 years on the Reds team who has been the Red that everyone would want to be like, Griffey. Despite the injuries, he is still Griffey. Now, when those youngsters coming up see Griffey and/or others half ass or walk around, what do they do?? They immulate the Superstars.

And if Griffey can't play 100% without getting hurt then quite simply he needs to really consider retirment.

dougdirt
04-12-2007, 12:53 AM
Exactly. The past 7 years on the Reds team who has been the Red that everyone would want to be like, Griffey. Despite the injuries, he is still Griffey. Now, when those youngsters coming up see Griffey and/or others half ass or walk around, what do they do?? They immulate the Superstars.

And if Griffey can't play 100% without getting hurt then quite simply he needs to really consider retirment.

Except Griffey can play at 70% and still hit better than a lot of guys in the league... and that is exactly why Griffey is still playing, because he can hit the ball. If Griffey carried the stick of Jaun Castro, he surely would not have a job anymore... but he doesn;t.

Dunner44
04-12-2007, 01:00 AM
Exactly. The past 7 years on the Reds team who has been the Red that everyone would want to be like, Griffey. Despite the injuries, he is still Griffey. Now, when those youngsters coming up see Griffey and/or others half ass or walk around, what do they do?? They immulate the Superstars.

And if Griffey can't play 100% without getting hurt then quite simply he needs to really consider retirment.

Griffey is still a great example to follow. He still takes extra BP, he puts in tons of work in practice. That is an example to follow. If he doesn't run out a grounder to the first baseman because he risks his hamstring flying off the bone, I'm alright with that. I'm relitively certian the whole team understands he has leg issues. A vet like Conine, however, who has no serious health issues, and is not a first ballot hall of famer, will be held to a lot of the same standards as EE. And he is a great example, hustling out that triple a couple of nights ago in Great American, where triples go to die.

BlfdVaFan
04-12-2007, 01:02 AM
Except Griffey can play at 70% and still hit better than a lot of guys in the league... and that is exactly why Griffey is still playing, because he can hit the ball. If Griffey carried the stick of Jaun Castro, he surely would not have a job anymore... but he doesn;t.

You must see a JR that I don't. He can't hit and he absolutely can not play center field any longer. The jury is still out on right field. I would be thoroughly happy with a 75% Griffey. The minute the Reds got him they got 50% of the player he had been in Seattle. Any player should give 110% effort at all times so Jr should never get a pass for lack of hustle......yet he does.

UC_Ken
04-12-2007, 01:05 AM
If you're a Hall of Famer who has battled constant leg injuries you get a pass on running out soft ground balls. No one else has earned that right.

jimbo
04-12-2007, 01:05 AM
You must see a JR that I don't. He can't hit and he absolutely can not play center field any longer. The jury is still out on right field. I would be thoroughly happy with a 75% Griffey. The minute the Reds got him they got 50% of the player he had been in Seattle. Any player should give 110% effort at all times so Jr should never get a pass for lack of hustle......yet he does.

I can only shake my head at posts like this. :rolleyes:

Degenerate39
04-12-2007, 01:05 AM
I disagree with that to an extent. He had no clue where the ball was until it was already on its way down. At that point he probably said something in his head that I cant type on this board and realized he messed up. That isn't 'no hustle' its 'oh crap I cant believe I just did that'.

I was being sarcastic.

gilpdawg
04-12-2007, 01:10 AM
You must see a JR that I don't. He can't hit and he absolutely can not play center field any longer. The jury is still out on right field. I would be thoroughly happy with a 75% Griffey. The minute the Reds got him they got 50% of the player he had been in Seattle. Any player should give 110% effort at all times so Jr should never get a pass for lack of hustle......yet he does.
Wait, the minute they got him? So that means that 2000 season of .271/.387/.983 should have been 50% better according to your logic? Sure. Makes total sense.

dougdirt
04-12-2007, 01:25 AM
You must see a JR that I don't. He can't hit and he absolutely can not play center field any longer. The jury is still out on right field. I would be thoroughly happy with a 75% Griffey. The minute the Reds got him they got 50% of the player he had been in Seattle. Any player should give 110% effort at all times so Jr should never get a pass for lack of hustle......yet he does.

You are nuts. First off, Griffey hasnt played CF all year, so what the heck are you talking about? Nowhere in my post that you quoted did I say 1 word about his defense. Griffey in 2000 and 2005 were 50% of what he did in Seattle? I have followed Griffey my entire life and I dont remember him ever hitting 70 or 80 HR with 180 or 230 RBI in my lifetime, but heck, you must have seen a JR I didnt in Seattle....
As for hustle, for crying out loud that is the most overrated crap ever. You know who hustles every play of every game? Guys who arent good enough to start otherwise... and those guys can never stay healthy because it tears your body up. Speaking of that, so does playing all out on concrete for 11 years in Seattle.... but heck, what do I know?

RedsMan3203
04-12-2007, 01:38 AM
Edwin simply lost the ball off the bat then found out it was in play... not out of play...

He should of attempted to run... not just stand there... If you don't know where the ball is.. RUN!

I'd give EdE a day off on Friday also... Play Freel at 3rd and Hamilton in CF.

haylo2403
04-12-2007, 01:48 AM
Does anyone else in this forum think if they had their hamstring held together by screws (and if im not mistaken he is the first player to have this procedure done to them and play with it) they might be a little hesitant about running out a ground ball at full speed when 9/10 it isnt needed and then try to slam on the brakes? Especially when you could be helping your club out by hitting 30 homeruns a season instead of pulling somethin for running out a ground ball. If it were me Id rather lose a game because he didnt run out a ground ball they to lose the 25-30 homeruns. And he has showed that when the time calls for it he will run out a ball. Case in point when he beat out the throw to first the other night.

roby
04-12-2007, 01:59 AM
EE isn't a proven 37-year old veteran who has his hamstrings attached by screws. It makes total sense to give Griffey the benefit of the doubt on when he needs to run and not, just as any other veteran in baseball would get the same allowance. Two totally different situations.

Agreed. Besides, Junior has been showing a lot of hustle when it matters. Last week against Pittsburgh, he hustled out an infield hit...and last night in Arizona, he tagged up and scored on a close play at the plate. I don't see where anyone can legitimately complain!

Will M
04-12-2007, 02:02 AM
I was watching the game and my reaction was - Narron should bench EE for the rest of this game. He needs to be taught a lesson. This behavior cannot be tolerated.
Then EE apoligizes and plays friday and never does this again.

Narron may not make all the right Xs and Os decisions but he does know how to manage people which is why he is the Reds manager.

Way to go Jerry :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

roby
04-12-2007, 02:04 AM
Edwin up and greeting Phillips and Seabass when they got back to the dugout. Good to see.

Edwin is a great guy and a good player. He will be alright. A little message was probably a good thing, though.

NDRed
04-12-2007, 02:09 AM
Good call by Narron, there has to be an expectation that you will play hard.

That being said, I have no doubt that EE will play on Friday. Narron doesn't want to bury Edwin, he wants to teach him a lesson- and he did.

The only wild card is how EE reacts. Hopefully, EE takes it as intended and moves on. If not, things could get ugly.

RedEye
04-12-2007, 02:24 AM
Good for Jerry. Edwin deserves to be sat down for the rest of the game. EE apparently forgot what a major leaguer is supposed to play like. Hopefully, the real EE will be back on Friday.

I wonder... could he be getting mixed messages about running out pop ups from Uncle Jerry and Brother Junior?

Razor Shines
04-12-2007, 02:25 AM
Well none of us were in the dugout, so we're all pretty much guessing. And if I had to guess, I'd say something else happened. Why would Narron have let EE play a whole inning after the incident then decide to pull him. JMO.

Razor Shines
04-12-2007, 02:26 AM
I wonder... could he be getting mixed messages about running out pop ups from Uncle Jerry and Brother Junior?

This is different than JR. sometimes jogging out grounders to first or jogging out pop ups. Because if all Edwin did was jog to first then this is a non-issue. When first base is occupied there is no reason to do any more than jog to first, because even if it's dropped you're not going any further than first. You jog down there to make sure they don't let the ball drop and turn an easy double play while you're standing in the batter's box. Now obviously at first Edwin thought it was out of play, but he did pick the ball up before it was caught, that's where he's got to make some attempt to jog down to first. Maybe Edwin thought this was an infield fly situation, I don't know. But I've read posts that says things like "not even Ryan Freel runs pop up out hard", that's true but they do make sure they're close enough to the base in case the ball is dropped.

I don't think Edwin was making a decision to not hustle I think he didn't know where it was at first and then when he did find it, he probably felt really dumb for not running and for whatever reason figured it was too late to do anything. I really don't mind a second year player being pulled for this in April. And if that is all that happened then he should defintely be back in there on Friday.

TeamBoone
04-12-2007, 03:05 AM
send him to the minors. He has options, and let him pout down there.

Oh please. If that isn't a harsh over-reaction, I don't know what is.

It's one mistake; he's already received his punishment... and it was appropriate. Anything more would be overkill.

Razor Shines
04-12-2007, 03:08 AM
Oh please. If that isn't a harsh over-reaction, I don't know what is.

It's one mistake; he's already received his punishment... and it was appropriate. Anything more would be overkill.

I completely agree, and it's just as harsh of an over-reaction as those who think that Narron should be fired because of this.

Scrap Irony
04-12-2007, 03:14 AM
Two boneheads in two days, neither of which looked like he cared about. The bunt "attempt" last night was horrid. His body language clearly stated he didn't want to bunt, so he didn't try.

Tonight, same old, same old. Replays show he saw the pop up and decided not to run. You bench players for that. Simple, really. (BTW, both Junior and Dunn jog to first, but at least they get there. EdE never got out of the box.)

If Cincinnati had Arizona's pipeline, I'd send him to 3B in Tuscon for a couple weeks. As it is, with no one even half as good, a two or three game sit-down (with Freel playing the hot corner and Hamilton in CF) should allow him to clear his head from out of his... doldrums.

The Baumer
04-12-2007, 03:31 AM
No offense dudes but sometimes we forget we are watching this game on a tiny box that sits in our living rooms. I'm willing to bet Jerry Narron and the Reds coaching staff, who interact with Edwin in real life for several hours a day, have a better ability to read Edwin's attitude/body language/mind than we do, and in this situation they felt they needed to give him a "wake up call" and snap him out of lazy/bad mental habits.

dougdirt
04-12-2007, 03:47 AM
Two boneheads in two days, neither of which looked like he cared about. The bunt "attempt" last night was horrid. His body language clearly stated he didn't want to bunt, so he didn't try.

Tonight, same old, same old. Replays show he saw the pop up and decided not to run. You bench players for that. Simple, really. (BTW, both Junior and Dunn jog to first, but at least they get there. EdE never got out of the box.)

If Cincinnati had Arizona's pipeline, I'd send him to 3B in Tuscon for a couple weeks. As it is, with no one even half as good, a two or three game sit-down (with Freel playing the hot corner and Hamilton in CF) should allow him to clear his head from out of his... doldrums.

If you sent a guy who is a middle of the order hitter to AAA for a couple of weeks to 'make a point to follow your foul balls' you would and should be immediately fired.

Replays show in slow motion that he saw the ball about half a second before the second baseman caught the thing... at that point Edwin probably thought to himself how dumb he just looked but it was to late to do anything.

jhiller21
04-12-2007, 04:16 AM
Who's to say the 2B/CF doesn't let that ball drop? He could throw onto second, then to first for a DP. Edwin finally saw the ball when he noticed the 2B drifting back, he should've at least jogged to first.

Jpup
04-12-2007, 05:00 AM
I actually haven't watched the replay as I was out of the room when it happened. I have not like Jerry Narron much at all in the past, but I don't think this is a big deal. Narron has a pretty good feel for his players, if nothing else. He is not the best game manager, but he is very good with people. I think they all respect him or, at least, they should. He seems to be a great guy. Even though I don't like his style, he's solid.

Edwin has a tract record of this pouting nonsense and he really needs to grow up. I realize he is a young guy, but the only way to learn is to be taught. I did see him mouth to Javy (I believe), "Why did he take me out?"

Also, all of those folks that keep calling for Freel to go play 3rd, well I doubt that is going to happen since he is the everyday center fielder. I could see the Reds going out and getting a guy like David Bell to backup 3rd if the problem persists. I have confidence in Edwin and I think that Alex and Javy will probably have a little chat with him. I think Javy already did, or so it looked from my POV. Edwin is going to be a great player and if he is surrounded by the same types of solid people his is now, he will be fine. I'm sure he's also feeling a lot of pressure hitting between Dunn and Jr. too.

Hey, the Reds won, let's be happy. :D

redsrule2500
04-12-2007, 05:10 AM
Marty says - "so what about when Griffey jogs to first base all the time? Is he going to sit, or are there two different sets of rules on this team?"


Marty speaks the truth :beerme:

Ron Madden
04-12-2007, 05:25 AM
Oh please. If that isn't a harsh over-reaction, I don't know what is.

It's one mistake; he's already received his punishment... and it was appropriate. Anything more would be overkill.

I'm in full agreement with TB here.

Edwin has a history of working hard and playing hard.

He is not a slacker. He should start Friday.

SunDeck
04-12-2007, 07:47 AM
When you hit the ball and you don't know where it went, you don't stand there looking at the stands. You run. Edwin got benched not for "not hustling", but for making a fundamental mistake that most 13 year old kids don't make.

Highlifeman21
04-12-2007, 08:12 AM
I completely agree, and it's just as harsh of an over-reaction as those who think that Narron should be fired because of this.

This is just one more item on the reasons to fire Jerry Narron.

I only saw the replay, didn't see the game, but come on Jerry.... Talk with the kid inbetween innings, don't take him out and have Juan freakin Castro in the game for what looked to be 8 innings in the box score. How in the world does THAT move help the team?

Flexing your muscle in a power struggle with your players isn't the way to build chemistry, Jerry.

Always Red
04-12-2007, 08:33 AM
This is just one more item on the reasons to fire Jerry Narron.

I only saw the replay, didn't see the game, but come on Jerry.... Talk with the kid inbetween innings, don't take him out and have Juan freakin Castro in the game for what looked to be 8 innings in the box score. How in the world does THAT move help the team?

Flexing your muscle in a power struggle with your players isn't the way to build chemistry, Jerry.

On the contrary, I see this as a sign of hope for Narron. I absolutely think he did the right thing. For all we know maybe he has already talked to Edwin in his office in the past, behind closed doors, about giving effort all of the time.

Edwin does not have a history of dogging it or not hustling on the field; Narron acknowledged in the paper today that he is a very hard worker, that he likes Edwin at 3B and that Edwin will probably be in there again on Friday.

BUT, last night was a poor decision by Edwin, as was the half-hearted bunt attempt the night before. A bad bunt is one thing, but it was clear to me that Edwin did not want to bunt by his attitude. So, two games in a row, Narron is seeing some sign of poor attitude from EE.

A young player needs more guidance and a firmer hand than established vets do. Yes, there are clearly different standards on this team, as there are on most professional teams.

As a manager, you have to nip this kind of attitude in the bud, before it becomes bad habit for a young player. The very best way to that type of problem is to deny the player time on the field.

Narron actually did not see it happen, was told what happened by the coaches, and then went and looked at replays in the clubhouse before making his decision. It was not a rash decision, or muscle flexing, in my opinion. I couldn't believe he did it, because I've never seen Narron take the reins like that before- I like what I saw, and I was happy to see that the inmates are not always running the asylum.

Plus, Castro hit 2 screaming line drives last night, both were caught, but he nailed them both. There really are worse things than Juan Castro playing 8 innings in relief, and one of them would be our best young player being allowed to develope a lackadaisical attitude, which may wind up costing a game down the road.

I am of the firm belief that a greater good will come out of this; by all accounts Edwin had the right approach to it after the game, during interviews.

Edwin will be fine; he has a bright future in this game. I'm pretty sure he will approach the game with a different attitude on Friday.

RedFanAlways1966
04-12-2007, 09:00 AM
No offense dudes but sometimes we forget we are watching this game on a tiny box that sits in our living rooms. I'm willing to bet Jerry Narron and the Reds coaching staff, who interact with Edwin in real life for several hours a day, have a better ability to read Edwin's attitude/body language/mind than we do, and in this situation they felt they needed to give him a "wake up call" and snap him out of lazy/bad mental habits.

Well said. Narron does not seem like a mean and nasty (Earl Weaver) type of manager. The above-paragraph makes sense to me. The comparisons to Griffey, the calls for Narron's head, etc... do not make sense.

Thanks for the post.

RANDY IN INDY
04-12-2007, 09:04 AM
On the contrary, I see this as a sign of hope for Narron. I absolutely think he did the right thing. For all we know maybe he has already talked to Edwin in his office in the past, behind closed doors, about giving effort all of the time.

Edwin does not have a history of dogging it or not hustling on the field; Narron acknowledged in the paper today that he is a very hard worker, that he likes Edwin at 3B and that Edwin will probably be in there again on Friday.

BUT, last night was a poor decision by Edwin, as was the half-hearted bunt attempt the night before. A bad bunt is one thing, but it was clear to me that Edwin did not want to bunt by his attitude. So, two games in a row, Narron is seeing some sign of poor attitude from EE.

A young player needs more guidance and a firmer hand than established vets do. Yes, there are clearly different standards on this team, as there are on most professional teams.

As a manager, you have to nip this kind of attitude in the bud, before it becomes bad habit for a young player. The very best way to that type of problem is to deny the player time on the field.

Narron actually did not see it happen, was told what happened by the coaches, and then went and looked at replays in the clubhouse before making his decision. It was not a rash decision, or muscle flexing, in my opinion. I couldn't believe he did it, because I've never seen Narron take the reins like that before- I like what I saw, and I was happy to see that the inmates are not always running the asylum.

Plus, Castro hit 2 screaming line drives last night, both were caught, but he nailed them both. There really are worse things than Juan Castro playing 8 innings in relief, and one of them would be our best young player being allowed to develope a lackadaisical attitude, which may wind up costing a game down the road.

I am of the firm belief that a greater good will come out of this; by all accounts Edwin had the right approach to it after the game, during interviews.

Edwin will be fine; he has a bright future in this game. I'm pretty sure he will approach the game with a different attitude on Friday.

:beerme:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Baumer
No offense dudes but sometimes we forget we are watching this game on a tiny box that sits in our living rooms. I'm willing to bet Jerry Narron and the Reds coaching staff, who interact with Edwin in real life for several hours a day, have a better ability to read Edwin's attitude/body language/mind than we do, and in this situation they felt they needed to give him a "wake up call" and snap him out of lazy/bad mental habits.
Well said. Narron does not seem like a mean and nasty (Earl Weaver) type of manager. The above-paragraph makes sense to me. The comparisons to Griffey, the calls for Narron's head, etc... do not make sense.

Thanks for the post.

:beerme:

Always Red
04-12-2007, 09:14 AM
From C Trent's blog:
http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/spring/


Jerry Narron on taking EE out of the game:


I was not watching the play, I wasn’t watching Eddie, I was watching the ball, but I saw Eddie come in with his bat, so I came in here (to the clubhouse) and looked at it and Eddie did not run and he told me he didn’t see where the ball was, but you’ve still got to run> I don’t care if we lose every game, we’re not going to play guys who don’t hustle. It’s as simple as that. We’ll pinch-hit pitchers, we’ll play pitchers if we have to. If you cannot hustle, you cannot play. It’s as simple as that. Eddie will probably be back in there Friday, but I tell you want, if they don’t run balls out, they’re not going to play. I don’t care if we lose every game, we’re going to hustle while they do it.

I was watching the ball, I was watching the baserunners. I wasn’t watching Eddie, that’s why he went back out on the field. If I’d have been watching him, he never would have takent he field. I love him, I think he’s going to be a great player. He messed up, but doggone it, you can’t be messing up in this game by not hustling. If you don’t know where the ball is, you find out where it is. One thing Eddie’s never done here is he’s never dogged it. It was an honest mistake, but it was a mistake.

Don't think I don't like Edwin Encarnacion, I love him.

Donder
04-12-2007, 09:14 AM
They were talking about this on Mike and Mike in the Morning on ESPN Radio today and Greeny said Narron is his new favorite manager. Tim Kurkjian agreed that it was a good move as long as Narron is backed by the GM and owner.

If nothing else this was a gutsy move by Narron. He certainly knew there'd be criticism. But I for one like Narron more today than I did yesterday.

lollipopcurve
04-12-2007, 09:19 AM
All you need to do is read the quotes from Narron and Edwin. It seems to me it has been handled perfectly by both manager and player. Two victories for the club last night -- one on the field, one in the clubhouse.

MartyFan
04-12-2007, 09:21 AM
And then we have this excerpt from YAHOO sports talking about Josh Hamilton and his 2nd HR.


Hamilton's solo home run off Arizona reliever Brandon Medders gave Cincinnati a 3-1 lead in the eighth inning. Hamilton wasn't sure the line drive would clear the fence, so he didn't stop sprinting until he saw the umpire's signal.

"I got around the bases pretty quick," Hamilton said. "That's the way I do. I don't take it for granted."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070412/ap_on_sp_ba_ga_su/bbn_nl_rdp

Chip R
04-12-2007, 09:24 AM
Who's to say the 2B/CF doesn't let that ball drop? He could throw onto second, then to first for a DP. Edwin finally saw the ball when he noticed the 2B drifting back, he should've at least jogged to first.


I would think that a 2B/CF would be too busy watching the ball and catching it to intentionally drop it. How many times you ever see someone camp under a fly ball and then look at home plate while the ball is coming down to check on the batter to see if he's running?

Caseyfan21
04-12-2007, 09:29 AM
Seems like a solid move by Narron although I didn't get a chance to see the play. Seems like EdE has had a rough couple of days and maybe Narron doing this will light a little bit of fire under him. As for the Griffey vs. EdE debate I think it was inexcusable that Griffey wasn't at second on that ball off the wall a few nights ago. I give Griff a pass on an infield pop out or a grounder to the second basemen but it was pretty clear his hit was either a homer or a double, not an out. I don't think Narron can really pull out Griff though because honestly if he alienates Griffey that's probably the quickest way to start tearing apart the team. If Griff is upset his influence can spread to the younger players and Narron could quickly lose the team's support which is the fastest track to getting canned in the majors. Narron seems to be a pretty good people person and I trust his judgement on this situation.

There is a double standard but if Narron didn't at least say something to Griff behind closed doors I'd be dissapointed. Using EdE as an example will probably be good for all the younger players in the long run. No matter what any of you say, in this day and age, no manager would ever use a first ballot hall of famer and team leader as an example for something as petty as not running out a long fly ball.

dabvu2498
04-12-2007, 09:29 AM
I would think that a 2B/CF would be too busy watching the ball and catching it to intentionally drop it. How many times you ever see someone camp under a fly ball and then look at home plate while the ball is coming down to check on the batter to see if he's running?

One of his teammates would've had to communicate with him, but I've seen it happen.

hebroncougar
04-12-2007, 09:46 AM
From C Trent's blog:
http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/spring/

IF that's true, it should send a message to everyone. And IMO, everyone can hustle everything out on this team, if you aren't healthy enough to hustle, you aren't healthy enough to play. Just my opinion.

Chip R
04-12-2007, 10:09 AM
To borrow a line from Cool Hand Luke, I wish Narron would stop being so good to Edwin.

as_v_1
04-12-2007, 10:13 AM
Marty and Jeff recieved an email from Butcher confirming that Edwin was not benched due to injury (which confirms the run out thing).

Marty says - "so what about when Griffey jogs to first base all the time? Is he going to sit, or are there two different sets of rules on this team?"

Look at the key word in there he “jogs” to first. EE didn’t MOVE AT ALL that’s why he is not treating them different. If Griffey just stood in the batters box with his bat on his shoulder he would be benched also

osuceltic
04-12-2007, 10:15 AM
I love what Narron did. Love it. This is a young player. You absolutely have to teach him how to play the game the right way. Now is the time. Which leads me to the "two sets of rules" argument with Junior ...

Unfortunately, this is what happens when no one corrects a player on that kind of play. Now, they can't say anything to Junior. Hell, they had to tiptoe around to move him from a position that he had become a liability at. But that's where they are. He can loaf, and not run out ground balls, and not run when he hits a deep fly ball and everything else, and no one has the stones to stand up to him.

So if it takes a little tough love now to teach Edwin the way thing should be done, I'm all for it.


Look at the key word in there he “jogs” to first. EE didn’t MOVE AT ALL that’s why he is not treating them different. If Griffey just stood in the batters box with his bat on his shoulder he would be benched also

No way. Not happening. I wish they could take that kind of stand with Junior, but that ship has sailed.

durl
04-12-2007, 10:22 AM
I agree with Narron on pulling EE. When in doubt, RUN it out. (Nice catch phrase, huh?) Edwin is going to have a good year; I'm not worried about him. Narron showed he was frustrated with the team not scoring runs in the series and he did something about it. Good for him.

I'll echo others on here and say that the complaints about Jr not hustling are nonsense to me. You'd be hard pressed to find a lefty who sprints to 1B on a little dribbler hit to 2nd. Especially one with as many leg injuries as Jr. It's a non-issue to me.

And, BOY, Narron made a GREAT call by using Valentin to PH last night, huh? The manager yanks a young player for not leaving the batters box and people call for him to be fired while completely ignoring his decision that ended up WINNING the game for the Reds.

Chip R
04-12-2007, 10:27 AM
And, BOY, Narron made a GREAT call by using Valentin to PH last night, huh? The manager yanks a young player for not leaving the batters box and people call for him to be fired while completely ignoring his decision that ended up WINNING the game for the Reds.


I saw Ross heding straight for the clubhouse after he was pulled. Few people commented on that but everyone was quick to excoriate EE for "pouting". I remember last year when Ross hit a big HR and Jason LaRue wasn't exactly jumping for joy. People had a field day with that.

edabbs44
04-12-2007, 10:35 AM
After hearing Narron, I feel a little better about the situation and Jerry had the right to do what he did. Could it have been handled differently? Maybe. Maybe he could have talked to Edwin and said next time your getting benched. Maybe he could have put Griffey in and moved Freel. But I just hope this isn't the beginning of the same situation last year, where Edwin boots a ball and doesn't see the field for a week. I don't think we're ready for that yet, and so far this looks like an isolated instance. I just get worried.

Always Red
04-12-2007, 10:39 AM
^good point, Chip, I saw that too.

Dave Ross isn't quite John Bench yet. He had a good half year, and not much since then. I think it's ok to be upset about being PH for, but be a pro and hang around to watch your team, especially during the most pivotal moment of the game, rather than sulking away to the clubhouse.

Just as an aside, hi def TV, and all the different angles and cameras everywhere are changing the watching of the game. These guys need to realize they are on camera all of the time, and handle themselves accordingly, if they don't want the negative feedback.

bucksfan2
04-12-2007, 10:43 AM
I dont mind what Narron did. I just hope he treats everyone else the same way. Maybe with the exception of Jr and Dunn. The next time Freel does something stupid do you bench him? It looked like EE lost the ball and due to his reaction and the type of swing it looked like it was a foul ball.

Red Leader
04-12-2007, 10:44 AM
I saw Ross heding straight for the clubhouse after he was pulled. Few people commented on that but everyone was quick to excoriate EE for "pouting". I remember last year when Ross hit a big HR and Jason LaRue wasn't exactly jumping for joy. People had a field day with that.

I still contend that David Ross should have been the one pulled from a game the other night when he gave his half-assed effort on that bunt. If Narron was going to send a message, that's where it should have been sent. If he had done it, EE's mishap last night probably wouldn't have happened. I'm guessing that play stuck in Narron's head and when last night's event did happen, it pushed him over the edge to do something about it.

I say good for Narron. This team has fallen into some bad and lazy habits as of late. It was time to send a message that this "attitude" won't be accepted.

BuckeyeRedleg
04-12-2007, 10:47 AM
I still contend that David Ross should have been the one pulled from a game the other night when he gave his half-assed effort on that bunt. If Narron was going to send a message, that's where it should have been sent. If he had done it, EE's mishap last night probably wouldn't have happened. I'm guessing that play stuck in Narron's head and when last night's event did happen, it pushed him over the edge to do something about it.

I say good for Narron. This team has fallen into some bad and lazy habits as of late. It was time to send a message that this "attitude" won't be accepted.

Agree. I'm fine with this move. It actually gives me a little faith in Narron.

2001MUgrad
04-12-2007, 11:30 AM
I saw Ross heding straight for the clubhouse after he was pulled. Few people commented on that but everyone was quick to excoriate EE for "pouting". I remember last year when Ross hit a big HR and Jason LaRue wasn't exactly jumping for joy. People had a field day with that.

I saw that to and that was my first reaction as well. But with the bullpen being in RF, I sort of just figured that he was getting his stuff to go to the Bullpen and be the BP catch for the rest of the night. Do we know if ended up in the BP or not??

smith288
04-12-2007, 11:57 AM
He didn't know where the ball was, and he thought he fouled it back. He even turned around and looked behind the plate.

For some reason, just like last year, Narron feels the need to treat Edwin like the redheaded stepchild, and pulls him.

It was a joke of a move by Narron.
Dude. We all know you have an undying love for Edwin but if you have no clue where the ball is, you best be running.

westofyou
04-12-2007, 12:01 PM
Bobby Cox did the same thing to Andruw (for a fielding lack of hustle) back in 1998.

IslandRed
04-12-2007, 12:22 PM
Bobby Cox did the same thing to Andruw (for a fielding lack of hustle) back in 1998.

Pulled him out of center field in the middle of an inning, didn't he?

Yachtzee
04-12-2007, 12:24 PM
I still contend that David Ross should have been the one pulled from a game the other night when he gave his half-assed effort on that bunt. If Narron was going to send a message, that's where it should have been sent. If he had done it, EE's mishap last night probably wouldn't have happened. I'm guessing that play stuck in Narron's head and when last night's event did happen, it pushed him over the edge to do something about it.

I say good for Narron. This team has fallen into some bad and lazy habits as of late. It was time to send a message that this "attitude" won't be accepted.

Lollygaggers. He should throw some bats in the shower. ;)

Seriously, I don't know if I would have pulled him from the game. The more I think about it, the more I think it really depends on the situation. If I'm Narron, I would talk to him about it in the dugout. If seems like he's listening and I feel it won't happen again, he stays in the game. If he's not taking it seriously, he's on the bench. The key is, what do I need to do to make sure I'm getting through to the player.

I'll say that asking EE to bunt is a dumb idea, both strategically and tactically, and don't see the usefulness in it (I don't want anyone above the 7-8-9 spots bunting as a rule, except maybe 1, if it's for a hit). Removing your starting 3B after 1 inning is a bad move from a strategic and tactical perspective, but may be necessary on a personal level. A manager isn't just a manager of players, he's a manager of people. He deals with 25 individuals on a nightly basis and so sometimes you have to make what looks like a bad decision from a strategic or tactical perspective if it helps that person become a better player long-term.

I also don't agree with treating every player the same. Some guys are self-motivated and just need to be plugged into the lineup every day to succeed. Some guys need a fire lit under their behinds.

Red Leader
04-12-2007, 12:40 PM
Lollygaggers. He should throw some bats in the shower. ;)

Seriously, I don't know if I would have pulled him from the game. The more I think about it, the more I think it really depends on the situation. If I'm Narron, I would talk to him about it in the dugout. If seems like he's listening and I feel it won't happen again, he stays in the game. If he's not taking it seriously, he's on the bench. The key is, what do I need to do to make sure I'm getting through to the player.

I'll say that asking EE to bunt is a dumb idea, both strategically and tactically, and don't see the usefulness in it (I don't want anyone above the 7-8-9 spots bunting as a rule, except maybe 1, if it's for a hit). Removing your starting 3B after 1 inning is a bad move from a strategic and tactical perspective, but may be necessary on a personal level. A manager isn't just a manager of players, he's a manager of people. He deals with 25 individuals on a nightly basis and so sometimes you have to make what looks like a bad decision from a strategic or tactical perspective if it helps that person become a better player long-term.

I also don't agree with treating every player the same. Some guys are self-motivated and just need to be plugged into the lineup every day to succeed. Some guys need a fire lit under their behinds.


I liked that first line. :thumbup: :laugh:

Seriously though, I agree with your whole post. Each player is different and should be treated as such. I don't know Edwin personally, but maybe he's the type of player that does need disciplined like this to get him focused and motivated. Sure seems like he's been managed that way to this point in his career, so I hope so.

Chip R
04-12-2007, 12:48 PM
Seems like EE is always involved in some kind of controversy when it comes to Narron. When they initially brought him up for a cup of coffee, I think it was against CLE, he played him like once and no more. Then last year he made about 3 errors in a game at CHI and he was benched for several days. Then he got hurt and spent a little more time rehabbing in AAA than he should have. And, of course, all the late inning defensive replacements last year. Then Narron had EE sacrificing on Tuesday night even though he was the cleanup hitter and has only sacrificed 6 times since he started playing pro ball. Then the incident on Wednesday. If Jerry loves EE, I'd hate to see what would happen if he hated him.

George Anderson
04-12-2007, 12:48 PM
Billy Martin replaced Reggie Jackson in RF in 1978 after Jackson didnt hustle after a ground ball. That led to the infamous Jackson/Martin dugout conflict.

Cedric
04-12-2007, 12:50 PM
Seems like EE is always involved in some kind of controversy when it comes to Narron. When they initially brought him up for a cup of coffee, I think it was against CLE, he played him like once and no more. Then last year he made about 3 errors in a game at CHI and he was benched for several days. Then he got hurt and spent a little more time rehabbing in AAA than he should have. And, of course, all the late inning defensive replacements last year. Then Narron had EE sacrificing on Tuesday night even though he was the cleanup hitter and has only sacrificed 6 times since he started playing pro ball. Then the incident on Wednesday. If Jerry loves EE, I'd hate to see what would happen if he hated him.

EE did not play in the game after the Chicago debacle because Jerry wanted him to clear his head. He made it 100% clear that it wasn't punishment.
I don't know if EE came off the DL late because of Jerry. Last I checked he wasn't the gm. And god forbid the manager ask anyone to bunt. Absolute proof he hates you.

dabvu2498
04-12-2007, 12:59 PM
Seems like EE is always involved in some kind of controversy when it comes to Narron. When they initially brought him up for a cup of coffee, I think it was against CLE, he played him like once and no more.

EE played in 69 games in 2005.

Called up June 24, 2005.
8 ABs in June
37 in July
84 in August
77 in September/October

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?statsId=7278&year=2005

Chip R
04-12-2007, 01:01 PM
EE did not play in the game after the Chicago debacle because Jerry wanted him to clear his head. He made it 100% clear that it wasn't punishment.
I don't know if EE came off the DL late because of Jerry. Last I checked he wasn't the gm. And god forbid the manager ask anyone to bunt. Absolute proof he hates you.


He may have said it was to clear his head but was that how it was taken by EE? Dunn made some errors and misplays on Opening Day and he didn't need to be benched to "clear his head". It was punishment plain and simple.

I know Narron isn't the GM but you can bet he had some influence in how long he stayed down there.

How many times is Jr. asked to sacrifice? What about Dunn?

Hey Meat
04-12-2007, 01:18 PM
I like Edwin Encarnacion. In fact when he gets up to bat I sing the Encarnacion song off of Nacho Libre. The one thing that gets me about him is he looks like he is pouting from time to time. Don't get me wrong, we need him, he looks like he has improved his fielding and his bat is much needed. Jerry is just trying to send a message early. Hopefully he sends one to Edwin on the pouting on the stairs issue also.

Roy Tucker
04-12-2007, 01:20 PM
Seems like EE is always involved in some kind of controversy when it comes to Narron. When they initially brought him up for a cup of coffee, I think it was against CLE, he played him like once and no more. Then last year he made about 3 errors in a game at CHI and he was benched for several days. Then he got hurt and spent a little more time rehabbing in AAA than he should have. And, of course, all the late inning defensive replacements last year. Then Narron had EE sacrificing on Tuesday night even though he was the cleanup hitter and has only sacrificed 6 times since he started playing pro ball. Then the incident on Wednesday. If Jerry loves EE, I'd hate to see what would happen if he hated him.

Word.

EE sure seems a lightning rod for Narron's wrath.

Hoosier Red
04-12-2007, 01:24 PM
Jayson Stark said on ESPN this morning that Narron is one of two or three managers who could pull this off. He said the clubhouse respects him, and the players trust him.
That's pretty high praise.

He brought up the Cox pulling Andruw Jones incident as being exactly like this;
gifted young player who makes a boneheaded move, lights up manager, and the manager yanks him. Then plays him the next day and you never hear another word from Jones about a lack of hustle.

Hopefully we'll have similar results.

Hoosier Red
04-12-2007, 01:25 PM
IIRC Sparky always had different rules for star players. When one of the young guys complained the standard response was "how about you go to 5 all star games then we'll talk."

NJReds
04-12-2007, 01:26 PM
Pulled him out of center field in the middle of an inning, didn't he?

Billy Martin pulled Reggie Jackson in the middle of an inning of a game at Fenway.

MaineRed
04-12-2007, 01:37 PM
^good point, Chip, I saw that too.

Dave Ross isn't quite John Bench yet. He had a good half year, and not much since then. I think it's ok to be upset about being PH for, but be a pro and hang around to watch your team, especially during the most pivotal moment of the game, rather than sulking away to the clubhouse.

Just as an aside, hi def TV, and all the different angles and cameras everywhere are changing the watching of the game. These guys need to realize they are on camera all of the time, and handle themselves accordingly, if they don't want the negative feedback.

Did Ross exit the dugout and then not return? Maybe he just ducked into the clubhouse to remove his cup?

Chip R
04-12-2007, 01:43 PM
Did Ross exit the dugout and then not return? Maybe he just ducked into the clubhouse to remove his cup?


I only saw him leave. He may have come back, I don't know. If Ross wanted to remove his cup, he could have done it after the half-inning though. Frankly I don't care but a lot of people seemed to be upset that Jason wasn't Mr. Cheerful last year after Ross' HR. There also seemed to be a few folks upset over what they felt was EE sulking/pouting when he was pulled from the game. I do think much of the outrage last year was because Jason had lost his job to Ross and wasn't happy about it. So is there a double standard?

VR
04-12-2007, 02:12 PM
Any word from Edwin on this?

gonelong
04-12-2007, 02:22 PM
I don't have the replay in front of me, but my mind tells me that the catcher broke back after the "foul ball" and the pitcher was pointing up.

IMO EE "knew" it was a foul ball ... he didn't need to see the ball to confirm it. He "knew" he fouled the ball off, the catcher "knew" he fouled the ball off, and the pitcher "knew" he fouled the ball off.

Therefore he didn't run. How people are terming that lack of hustle I have no idea. How many players foul a ball straight back, never get a visual on the ball being foul, and don't run? Happens at least once a game. It turns out that EE was wrong and he didn't know, but IIRC, he was in good company with the C and P. (unless I am wrong about that!)

Once he saw it, it was too late, the 2nd Basemen caught the ball. What's he supposed to do at that point? Walk to the dugout.

I can see why Narron is a bit upset and I can't blame him too much for his reaction, but it doesn't seem like the punishment fits the crime. Either way I am glad that both of them seem to be ready to move on with it.

GL

jimbo
04-12-2007, 02:27 PM
I only saw him leave. He may have come back, I don't know. If Ross wanted to remove his cup, he could have done it after the half-inning though. Frankly I don't care but a lot of people seemed to be upset that Jason wasn't Mr. Cheerful last year after Ross' HR. There also seemed to be a few folks upset over what they felt was EE sulking/pouting when he was pulled from the game. I do think much of the outrage last year was because Jason had lost his job to Ross and wasn't happy about it. So is there a double standard?

It wasn't an isolated incident with LaRue last season, he pouted all year. I don't see how you can equate it to Ross walking into the clubhouse after being taken out of one game. He was taking his equipment with him, maybe he was just taking it into the clubhouse. My problems with LaRue was based on a entire season when compared to the great team attitude that he had always had when he was a starter.

Roy Tucker
04-12-2007, 02:42 PM
Any word from Edwin on this?

From http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2834516



Encarnacion offered no argument, although he said he didn't run because he thought he had fouled the ball out of play.

"I understand," Encarnacion said. "He likes everybody to play hard, run the bases and hustle in the game."

After speaking to reporters, Narron called Encarnacion into his office for a brief chat.

"He told me to keep playing hard," Encarnacion said.

Chip R
04-12-2007, 02:45 PM
It wasn't an isolated incident with LaRue last season, he pouted all year. I don't see how you can equate it to Ross walking into the clubhouse after being taken out of one game. He was taking his equipment with him, maybe he was just taking it into the clubhouse. My problems with LaRue was based on a entire season when compared to the great team attitude that he had always had when he was a starter.


So he couldn't have stayed till the end of the half inning to watch his teammate(s) hit? If Jr. or Dunn had done that people would have been up in arms.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
04-12-2007, 02:50 PM
I only saw him leave. He may have come back, I don't know. If Ross wanted to remove his cup, he could have done it after the half-inning though. Frankly I don't care but a lot of people seemed to be upset that Jason wasn't Mr. Cheerful last year after Ross' HR. There also seemed to be a few folks upset over what they felt was EE sulking/pouting when he was pulled from the game. I do think much of the outrage last year was because Jason had lost his job to Ross and wasn't happy about it. So is there a double standard?
First of all EE looked like a little boy pouting when he was pulled, sitting away from the team with his hat cocked sideways trying to justify himself to anyone who would listen. We as fans know little about the relationships between Jerry and his players, but I would say that if a coach can't bench a player for making a mistake, why have a manager. JN is making a statement and I believe that after a player gets over something like this they actually gain more respect for the manager. As for Ross He went to the Dugout, took his gear to the locker room and came right back. Please let us be responsible and not make something out of nothing till atleast the All Star break:laugh:

reds44
04-12-2007, 06:17 PM
Any word from Edwin on this?

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20070412/SPT04/304120010/



PHOENIX – Reds manager Jerry Narron did not see Edwin Encarnacion stand in the batter’s box while his popup sailed to shallow right field Wednesday night.

“You know something I was not watching Eddie,” Narron said. “I was watching the ball. I saw Eddie come in here with his bat. I came down here and looked it (on video). He did not run.”

So Narron did something you rarely see in the big leagues: He sent Juan Castro out to replace Encarnacion in the bottom of the second.


The Reds won the game 3-2, but Narron made a strong point with his club. Narron said Encarnacion only took the field in the bottom of the first because Narron wanted to be sure.

“If I had been watching him, he would have never taken the field,” Narron said.

Narron talked to Encarnacion before pulling him.

“Eddie told me he did not see the ball,” Narron said. “You’ve still got to run. I don’t care if we lose every game. We’re not going to play guys who don’t hustle. Simple as that. I told them from Day 1. We’ll pinch-hit pitchers. We’ll play pitchers. If you cannot hustle, you cannot play. Simple as that.”

Encarnacion said he thought the ball was going foul, but he was
Ok with what Narron did.

“I understand,” he said. “You got to play hard all the time. That’s how we play the game. That can’t happen. You have to run all the time.”

Encarnacion’s punishment was seven innings on the bench. Narron said he will start Friday when the Reds open a three-game series with the Chicago Cubs in Wrigley Field.

“Eddie will be back in there on Friday,” Narron said. “(But) if they don’t run balls out, they’re not going to play. I don’t care if we lose every game we’re going to hustle while we’re doing it.”

Again, Encarnacion has not fallen out of favor over one transgression.

“I love him,” Narron said. “I think he’s going to a great player. He messed up. But doggone it, you can’t be messing up in this game. If you don’t know where the ball is, you run until you know where it is.

“The one thing he’s never done here is dog it. It was probably an honest mistake. But it was a mistake.”

Narron took Encarnacion into his office to re-enforce that after the game.

“He told me to keep playing,” Encarnacion said, “and don’t worry about it.”


I'll give Narron credit. I think he overreacted to it, but he talked to Edwin, told him what he did wrong, punished him, then he praised him, and now we'll move on.

I'll give Narron his props on this one.

reds44
04-12-2007, 06:24 PM
First of all EE looked like a little boy pouting when he was pulled, sitting away from the team with his hat cocked sideways trying to justify himself to anyone who would listen. We as fans know little about the relationships between Jerry and his players, but I would say that if a coach can't bench a player for making a mistake, why have a manager. JN is making a statement and I believe that after a player gets over something like this they actually gain more respect for the manager. As for Ross He went to the Dugout, took his gear to the locker room and came right back. Please let us be responsible and not make something out of nothing till atleast the All Star break:laugh:
Edwin was just sitting there.........

You're reading way too much into that.

SeeinRed
04-12-2007, 06:56 PM
Edwin was just sitting there.........

You're reading way too much into that.

Edwin wasn't just sitting there. He was understandably upset with Narron, but thats no excuse. I don't understand how it is could be seen in any other way. He was pouting, plain and simple. I don't have a problem with it. He is suppose to care that he isn't in the game.

EE has looked lost so far this year. His body language at times shows that he is frustrated. He made an honest mistake, but it is one he probably shouldn't have made. He was disciplined as he should have been if you asked me. He just looked like he didn't care about it, just as he did on that bunt attempt the other night.

For those who say EE and Griffey should be treated the same, I ask what EE has done to warrant being treated by his peers and managers the same as Griffey has. Roger Clemens was allowed to stay home on Road trips he didn't pitch on. Should Matt Belisle be allowed to do the same? No. Of course not. What star player would want to play for a manager that treats him like a second year player who hasn't seen near the success he has? It just isn't smart business. Just because some don't like Narron, they attack him for it. If Narron didn't bench EE, there would be an uproar.

reds44
04-12-2007, 06:58 PM
How can you tell he was pouting? He was just sitting there.

Did you expect him to run around the dugout with a smile on his face?

OnBaseMachine
04-12-2007, 07:01 PM
Narron said. I don’t care if we lose every game.

Obviously.

SeeinRed
04-12-2007, 07:09 PM
How can you tell he was pouting? He was just sitting there.

Did you expect him to run around the dugout with a smile on his face?


How can you tell he just thought that particular spot looked comfortable. I expect him to be part of the team. I don't have any question that EE was unhappy about the decision of Narron, and I don't have any question that he was sitting where he was with his arms crossed, hat crooked and isolated from the team because he was unhappy with the decision... Which constitutes pouting. I don't think that it is as terrible as some would like you to think, but I do think it was quite obvious that he wasn't just sitting there because it's where he thought looked comfortable.

Razor Shines
04-12-2007, 07:10 PM
Narron said. I don’t care if we lose every game.



Obviously.


Oh cool let's cut up people's quotes and take them out of context so it looks like they're saying something they're not. I'll go next.


Narron said. I love him. That's messed up, but doggone it I don't care and you don't understand.

reds44
04-12-2007, 07:14 PM
How can you tell he just thought that particular spot looked comfortable. I expect him to be part of the team. I don't have any question that EE was unhappy about the decision of Narron, and I don't have any question that he was sitting where he was with his arms crossed, hat crooked and isolated from the team because he was unhappy with the decision... Which constitutes pouting. I don't think that it is as terrible as some would like you to think, but I do think it was quite obvious that he wasn't just sitting there because it's where he thought looked comfortable.
Who would be happy with that situation? Sorry for him not being robo man.

It's not like he pitched a fit about it. He just went and sat down.

SeeinRed
04-12-2007, 07:20 PM
Who would be happy with that situation? Sorry for him not being robo man.

It's not like he pitched a fit about it. He just went and sat down.


Couldn't agree more, but he was showing up the manager IMO. It was very childish and unprofessional. Why do you have to sit alone at the end of the dugout with your hat on sideways? There was no question as to why he was pulled from the game, but if you act like he did, you just put the spotlight on yourself that much more. After a while the game becomes second to the player. Luckily that didn't happen, but the story of the game was definately more about EE than the win or Hamilton's HR. There would be better ways to handle the situation. He handled it very well after the game as far as I can tell though. I don't argue that he could have done worse, but he could also have done better.

jimbo
04-12-2007, 07:35 PM
I can't be critical of EE for not being happy about the situation and I have no problem with him sitting at the end of the bench collecting his thoughts. Actually, I think he handled it quite well. He could have went back to the clubhouse and not supported his team, but he stuck around which shows how good of a teammate his is. I thought the right decision was made but I commend EE for coming out of his meeting with Narron with his head up and a good attitude.

I agree with others who have said, it's done and over with and time to move. I'm glad EE will be back at 3B come Friday because we all know how much this team needs him.

6-4-3
04-12-2007, 08:25 PM
IMO things that needed to be taken into consideration before benching a player in the middle of a game. (What Narron should've asked himself about EE)

1) Has EE been a player that has always hustled day in and day out.
2) Has EE kept his mouth shut about playing time, when it was obvious to some that he should've been playing.
3) How will this move affect the players mental make up.

After taking the approach if the manager still thinks something needs to be said, then take the player aside and discuss the play with him. Tell him that if a similar situation happens, then he'll be removed from the game.

Like it or not in the MLB more times than not the managers not going to "send a message". Players will tune that type of thing out. It will turn both vets and young players off to the manager and sometimes the mental approach they bring to the park daily.

TeamBoone
04-12-2007, 08:41 PM
First of all EE looked like a little boy pouting when he was pulled, sitting away from the team with his hat cocked sideways trying to justify himself to anyone who would listen.

:confused: Tough to do when he wasn't talking with anyone.

I think it would have looked worse if he came back to the dugout and acted like nothing had happened. I wouldn't have wanted to talk to anyone about it either, at least not while the game was going on.

Pitchers often head to a corner of the dugout when they're pulled; they just want to be alone.

I'm sure Edwin felt the same way.

Degenerate39
04-12-2007, 08:47 PM
Obviously.

:laugh:

griffeyfreak4
04-12-2007, 09:00 PM
I don't know why this is such a big deal.

EdE made a mistake, and was punished. Simple as that. You can't deny that this was a mistake, whether or not it was innocent or just a plain lack of hustle.

Now this doesn't make EdE a terrible player, it didn't ruin him mentally, and it didn't have a major effect on the rest of the team. It's over, it's done, and now he's going to go out tomorrow and play hard, as usual.

I really don't think Narron was trying to send a message, and I don't think this is going to be a continuing problem. It was a one time thing, and now it is over. It has become a bigger deal than it actually is.

And, btw, we won! And Belisle and Hamilton are awesome! Let's not use this minor incedence to bring the whole team down. :beerme:

Jpup
04-13-2007, 02:06 AM
:confused: Tough to do when he wasn't talking with anyone.

I think it would have looked worse if he came back to the dugout and acted like nothing had happened. I wouldn't have wanted to talk to anyone about it either, at least not while the game was going on.

Pitchers often head to a corner of the dugout when they're pulled; they just want to be alone.

I'm sure Edwin felt the same way.

He wasn't alone. Javy was sitting in a chair right behind him. He was pouting like a 3 year old. I still do the same thing sometimes and I'm 27. :) We all feel sorry for ourselves sometimes, no big deal.

WVRedsFan
04-13-2007, 02:46 AM
I don't know why this is such a big deal.

EdE made a mistake, and was punished. Simple as that. You can't deny that this was a mistake, whether or not it was innocent or just a plain lack of hustle.

Now this doesn't make EdE a terrible player, it didn't ruin him mentally, and it didn't have a major effect on the rest of the team. It's over, it's done, and now he's going to go out tomorrow and play hard, as usual.

I really don't think Narron was trying to send a message, and I don't think this is going to be a continuing problem. It was a one time thing, and now it is over. It has become a bigger deal than it actually is.

And, btw, we won! And Belisle and Hamilton are awesome! Let's not use this minor incedence to bring the whole team down. :beerme:
Hmmm. I guess I feel a little different about this than some of you. This whole incident reminds me of Miley when he hid the chairs from Dunn and Griffey. Man has very little discipline so he makes a big move becasue he's hacked off. It may be the beginning of Narron's undoing unless he repeats this, which he won't.

IN watching Edwin, I've never seen him dogging it to the point where I said, "look at him dogging it". Never. So, he makes a mistake, one I could understand, and then Narron embarrasses him in front of a big crowd and a TV audience. Edwin will not forget this. He has too much class to say anything other than what he did, but he will not forget.

It was an overreaction and nothing more. Let one of the veterans Narron adores do it and it's nothing, but let Edwin Encarnacion do it and it's a felony. And Edwin wasn't even trying to be a dogger.

For a guy who preaches fundamentals and playing baseball the right way, he's totally clueless when it comes on how to handle people. As one of the most successful coaches in history once said, punish but do it in private so as not to embarras the person being punished. Narron broke this rule and it will come back to haunt him, as much as we all like for the guy in charge to "put it to" the guy who makes a mistake.

RANDY IN INDY
04-13-2007, 09:53 AM
I don't think Encarnacion has a problem with hustle. I have never noticed that at all. I do think he has a problem keeping his head in the ballgame and knowing situations at times. I think that is the battle that Narron is dealing with, but that is just my opinion.

bucksfan2
04-13-2007, 10:08 AM
First of all I dont know what some people expected Edwin to do. The guy just got yanked, and stayed in the dougout to watch the game. He didn't go into the clubhouse to shower and get cleaned up like some pitchers do after they get yanked. He didn't yell and scream and beat up the water cooler when he got pulled. All he did was sit in the dougout and watch the game. I have no problem with the way he acted. If you say he pouted what do you want him to do, have a smile on his face?

I dont see how people correlate this move to fundamentals. Fundamentals has more to do with making the right play. Throwing to the right base, hitting the cutoff man, hitting behind a runner, bunting, etc. This has more to do with Narron trying to show whose boss almost 2 years after he had gotten the managerial job. Why the sudden change now? Why not on day one?

RANDY IN INDY
04-13-2007, 11:30 AM
This has more to do with Narron trying to show whose boss almost 2 years after he had gotten the managerial job. Why the sudden change now? Why not on day one?

I don't see it.

westofyou
04-13-2007, 11:41 AM
I don't see it.

Me either, he's not the first guy to get yanked, nor will he be the last. Much ado about nothing. As for 2 set of rules, welcome to baseball. Sparky had two sets of rules and openly talked about it, acknowledged it and defended it.

You can bet your butt that Casey Stengel despite his years in the game treated Mantle one way and DiMaggio another way and then 8 years later he treated Mantle one way and Bill Skowron another.

For Narron to pull EE for not hustling is the headline, the subtext of the story is what led to the actual event. And no one really knows what that is or was.