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View Full Version : Kruk calls out Narron



flyer85
04-12-2007, 11:42 PM
... for benching EE but doing nothing to Jr. Agreed with Narron on EE but said if your do it one you had better be ready to do it everybody regardless of who it is. ESPN showed the highlight of Jr trotting down to 1st on his single

BTW, Dusty said he waited until the next game to bench a player for lack of hustle.

Blitz Dorsey
04-12-2007, 11:52 PM
No doubt that EE is Narron's whipping boy, and last year proved it as well. But with this latest example, for whatever reason, I liked it. I know EE at first thought he fouled it off, but he still just stood there even when he knew the 2B was about to catch a pop up.

As for Griffey, yeah, I agree, but that ship has sailed. Narron knows he can't do anything about Griffey's loafing which was established long ago, but he wants to set an example with the young players. Is it fair? No. But neither is baseball.

flyer85
04-12-2007, 11:55 PM
but he wants to set an example with the young players. Is it fair? No. But neither is baseball.If applied selectively it really sets no example at all, it creates confusion and hostility.

AtomicDumpling
04-12-2007, 11:56 PM
... for benching EE but doing nothing to Jr. Agreed with Narron on EE but said if your do it one you had better be ready to do it everybody regardless of who it is. ESPN showed the highlight of Jr trotting down to 1st on his single

BTW, Dusty said he waited until the next game to bench a player for lack of hustle.

I agree with both of them. I have no problem with punishing EE for laziness, but do it in a way that doesn't harm the team's chances of winning the game for goodness sake. We ended up with Juan freakin' Castro hitting cleanup for 90% of the game.

Since we only have a small number of late-inning replacements for pinch hitting, pinch running, defensive replacements, double-switches, etc, it is not smart to waste one in the second inning just to make a point. He should have just pulled EE aside at that moment to tell him that laziness is not acceptable and that he would be benched for the following game. That is just as effective and wouldn't harm the team.

Falls City Beer
04-12-2007, 11:57 PM
Aren't we begging the question to call what Edwin did "laziness?"

Has that been proven?

Tom Servo
04-12-2007, 11:58 PM
I totally agreed with what Kruk or Young (I forget who said it really) said, that it would have sent a much bigger message to have benched Griffey for his lack of hustle than Edwin for his.

flyer85
04-13-2007, 12:01 AM
it would have sent a much bigger message to have benched Griffey All Narron did was enforce the fact that there are two sets of rules. It's a really good way to lose the control and respect of a group a people.

Caveat Emperor
04-13-2007, 12:09 AM
Agreed with Narron on EE but said if your do it one you had better be ready to do it everybody regardless of who it is.

You'd think spending 10 seasons in the bigs would give you a clue about the wide disparity in the treatment veteran players receive vs. young kids. It exists in baseball, the same way it exists in all sports.

Most superstars in the majors would probably have to murder a foriegn dignitary to get benched. Is it fair? Nope. Welcome to life.

lo ryder
04-13-2007, 12:14 AM
Kruk on a sprint might = most trotting

MaineRed
04-13-2007, 12:17 AM
I'm sure after a HOF career and various surgeries, including some on the hamstring that Narron would be more than happy to give Edwin a break.

Griffey has earned the right, because of the injuries he has had to take it easy when he grounds out to second or when he perhaps has the chance for an extra base. He hasn't earned the right to "loaf". He has earned the right to pick his spots. Edwin has not. Is it fair? Fair to who? Is it fair that Griffey has had his dignified career derailed by injuries while roidboy is set to break Aaron's record? We should be talking about how it doesn't matter what Bonds does because Griff is going to sail right by him anyway. But instead we are talking about how one of the most admired players ever, who has a hamstring held together with JB Weld is a loafer. Is that fair? I bet Junior would trade places with Edwin right now. Does Edwin want to be the guy who has to "loaf'? I doubt it.

It has been said this season by someone on the Reds announce team that Junior is usually at the park for early BP at 2:30 almost every day which they said was not normal for the typical player. Junior also is happy to turn it on when the situation call for it. He picks his spots. Like scoring from second or getting in on a shallow sac fly.

George Anderson
04-13-2007, 12:18 AM
All Narron did was enforce the fact that there are two sets of rules. It's a really good way to lose the control and respect of a group a people.


Sparky was notorious for having two sets of rules for the BRM. One for the stars and one for the subs. I agree its not always wise to have two sets of rules but history shows its not always a bad thing.

Marge'sMullet
04-13-2007, 12:26 AM
I don't think it's smart for Griffey to bust out of the batters box ever time. If you know anything about hamstring injuries you know that it's best to wait until your legs are warmed up. Griffey has earned the right and he does hustle when he should.

EE on the other hand has proven nothing, he's young and healthy and needs to run out everything.

IMO, case closed.

MaineRed
04-13-2007, 12:27 AM
If applied selectively it really sets no example at all, it creates confusion and hostility.

It does if done on a regular basis with a typical player. But Junior is not a typical player. His career has nothing to do with it even. It is the surgeries he has had to endure. It is a better investment for the Reds for Junior to cease the Pete Rose routine on weak grounders to second and Edwin should realize this.

Adam Dunn is a different story. Like Edwin, Narron should be pushing him to be the best player he can be. But Junior? Please.

WVPacman
04-13-2007, 12:27 AM
Guys I think Kruk is dead on by his comments!! Narrion done the right think by benching EE last night and I think he benched Ross last night also.Ross had two or three opertunitys to knock in runs in the last two games.Well he took him out in the 7th after he poped up or something with a runner on third.Anyways back to Narrion if he is going to bench one player for loafing then you have to bench the others even if they are Hofers.

That would make a statment and show the reds team that he expects to everybody to play hard and if they don't then they will sit.

Degenerate39
04-13-2007, 12:29 AM
I hate Kruk.

MaineRed
04-13-2007, 12:32 AM
Sparky was notorious for having two sets of rules for the BRM. One for the stars and one for the subs. I agree its not always wise to have two sets of rules but history shows its not always a bad thing.

Not when you are talking about a Pete Rose, a Johnny Bench or a Ken Griffey Junior.

Red Auerbach was said to have two different rules on his teams. One for Bill Russell. One for the rest of the team. When question by any players Red had his out, do what he has done and you'll get days off too.

And I wouldn't call this a one set of rules kind of deal. This might of just been Jerry's boiling point with Edwin over numerous issues. EE has had some pretty lazy ABs this season (not that others haven't).

WVPacman
04-13-2007, 12:35 AM
I don't think it's smart for Griffey to bust out of the batters box ever time. If you know anything about hamstring injuries you know that it's best to wait until your legs are warmed up. Griffey has earned the right and he does hustle when he should.


Hamstrings have nothing to do with this b/c he has been posing in the box ever since he came in the league.I don't know what players get from posing if they hit a homer?? I know if I was in their shoes posing would be the last thing on my mind.I would be running my butt off to get to second or third.

MaineRed
04-13-2007, 12:39 AM
I don't think it's smart for Griffey to bust out of the batters box ever time. If you know anything about hamstring injuries you know that it's best to wait until your legs are warmed up. Griffey has earned the right and he does hustle when he should.

EE on the other hand has proven nothing, he's young and healthy and needs to run out everything.

IMO, case closed.

Well said. If Griff was perfectly healthy and had no past injuries then I could see the issue. But does anyone here even know anyone who has had hamstring surgery? And have those criticizing Narron and/or Junior stopped and thought about what exactly hamstring surgery entails?

flyer85
04-13-2007, 12:43 AM
Red Auerbach was said to have two different rules on his teams. One for Bill Russell. One for the rest of the team. that had to do with Russell frequently not having to practice. No one would ever have accused Russell of dogging it during a real game.

Some players do earn the right to prepare for the game differently. Nobody earns the right to loaf during a game.

BTW, Jr wasn't protecting his hammies, he was cadillacing in his HR trot. It doesn't mean that JR has to run full speed all the time. Jr needs to be smart about how and when he uses his legs. However, his trot to first was not one of those cases where he was going 80-90 percent, he was going half speed at best

Team Clark
04-13-2007, 12:44 AM
If applied selectively it really sets no example at all, it creates confusion and hostility.

Worked for Sparky! :laugh:

George Anderson
04-13-2007, 12:46 AM
Well said. If Griff was perfectly healthy and had no past injuries then I could see the issue. But does anyone here even know anyone who has had hamstring surgery? And have those criticizing Narron and/or Junior stopped and thought about what exactly hamstring surgery entails?


Some people would rather see Griffey sprint 100% of the time on the field rather then be smart and use his legs wisely. If the game has a lopsided score I sure do not want to see Griffey sprinting to first base for an infield hit. I think alot of Reds fans are of the Pete Rose mindset that all players regardless of past health issues need to give 110% at all times.

If Griffey tears another hamstring then I can see him retiring and who can blame him. Griffey and his 8 million dollar contract do us more good on the field than sitting at home retired.

RedEye
04-13-2007, 12:47 AM
If applied selectively it really sets no example at all, it creates confusion and hostility.

When my parents used that "life's not fair" argument with we kids, they almost had a mutiny on her hands. If you aren't even-handed with your authority, you lose it real quick. Just sayin'...

fearofpopvol1
04-13-2007, 12:47 AM
Who cares?? It's a non-issue now. The Reds won the game. If similar situations arise, see how Narron handles it then.

Way too much has been made of this...

MaineRed
04-13-2007, 12:50 AM
Well last I checked Russell never went under the knife to have his hamstring worked on. I'm sure if he did that Red would have extended the rules to the court.

The players on this team and every team are individuals and they should be treated as such. They get treated differently by the front office during contract talks, no reason Narron can't treat them differently when it comes to his managing.

Ron Madden
04-13-2007, 12:52 AM
Sparky may have had two sets of rules but he demanded 100% effort and hustle from everyone. Stars and Subs alike.

forfreelin04
04-13-2007, 12:52 AM
I'm sure after a HOF career and various surgeries, including some on the hamstring that Narron would be more than happy to give Edwin a break.

Griffey has earned the right, because of the injuries he has had to take it easy when he grounds out to second or when he perhaps has the chance for an extra base. He hasn't earned the right to "loaf". He has earned the right to pick his spots. Edwin has not. Is it fair? Fair to who? Is it fair that Griffey has had his dignified career derailed by injuries while roidboy is set to break Aaron's record? We should be talking about how it doesn't matter what Bonds does because Griff is going to sail right by him anyway. But instead we are talking about how one of the most admired players ever, who has a hamstring held together with JB Weld is a loafer. Is that fair? I bet Junior would trade places with Edwin right now. Does Edwin want to be the guy who has to "loaf'? I doubt it.

It has been said this season by someone on the Reds announce team that Junior is usually at the park for early BP at 2:30 almost every day which they said was not normal for the typical player. Junior also is happy to turn it on when the situation call for it. He picks his spots. Like scoring from second or getting in on a shallow sac fly.

Griffey may have a hamstring tied together with string, but he is also the same person who broke his hand "rough-housing" with his kids. I think the injury that is merely only "waiting" to happen this year will come regardless if Junior milks it out of the box or not. Right now, I think the Reds feasibly could trade Junior for someone with more speed, better OBP, and less of an ego. Personally, I think Junior hinders this team more then aids it.

George Anderson
04-13-2007, 12:55 AM
Sparky may have had two sets of rules but he demanded 100% effort and hustle from everyone. Stars and Subs alike.

I think Sparky would have done the same thing to EE that Narron did. In regards to Griffey, I would think Sparky was smart enough to know that Griffey was a different situation and with his past leg history it would be wise to treat his legs with care.

MaineRed
04-13-2007, 12:56 AM
When my parents used that "life's not fair" argument with we kids, they almost had a mutiny on her hands. If you aren't even-handed with your authority, you lose it real quick. Just sayin'...

If you want to compare the Reds clubhouse to your childhood home, fine but here is the comparison.

Edwin is the ten year old kid. Junior is the college kid. Jerry is the parent. When Junior moves to college and gets a car and his own pad, the ten year old doesn't get the same thing. Life isn't fair. Just sayin ............

WVPacman
04-13-2007, 12:57 AM
lol I would have loved to seen how Lou Pinnella would have handled thease players loafing in a game.;)

MaineRed
04-13-2007, 12:58 AM
Griffey may have a hamstring tied together with string, but he is also the same person who broke his hand "rough-housing" with his kids. I think the injury that is merely only "waiting" to happen this year will come regardless if Junior milks it out of the box or not. Right now, I think the Reds feasibly could trade Junior for someone with more speed, better OBP, and less of an ego. Personally, I think Junior hinders this team more then aids it.

This has next to nothing to do with this discussion. I'm not sure what an off the field injury that clearly didn't happen on a drunken spree thru Reno has to do with anything. I know the thread title would lead many to believe it, but this isn't the Bash Junior thread. Thanks.

flyer85
04-13-2007, 12:59 AM
If you aren't even-handed with your authority, you lose it real quick. Just sayin'...which is the partially the point, it was a public humiliation of EE that should have been done more privately and tactfully while still getting the point across.

Did EE deserve the treatment? Not mid-game unless it was a frequent occurrence but I have never seen him not run out a ball before. It should have been handled more privately. Narron could have made the same point by sitting EE the next game and it would have been done without it being so public and being plastered all over ESPN and talked about for two nights. If Narron had sat him Friday it would not have hurt the team last night and it would have been a complete non-story. Instead what was done was a public humiliation of EE. My guess is that EE is upset and has lost a like of respect for Narron.

MaineRed
04-13-2007, 01:00 AM
lol I would have loved to seen how Lou Pinnella would have handled thease players loafing in a game.;)

You wouldn't see him treating Junior any differently than Narron does, I can tell you that. Brace yourself redszone but Lou probably has even more respect for Junior than Jerry does.

Ron Madden
04-13-2007, 01:00 AM
I think Sparky would have done the same thing to EE that Narron did. In regards to Griffey, I would think Sparky was smart enough to know that Griffey was a different situation and with his past leg history it would be wise to treat his legs with care.

I'm not hammering on KGJ in any way here.

Just giving my honest opinion of Sparkys rules.

flyer85
04-13-2007, 01:03 AM
You wouldn't see him treating Junior any differently than Narron does, I can tell you that. Brace yourself redszone but Lou probably has even more respect for Junior than Jerry does.Lou would never show up a player publicly like that unless they were a continual problem.

WVPacman
04-13-2007, 01:03 AM
You wouldn't see him treating Junior any differently than Narron does, I can tell you that. Brace yourself redszone but Lou probably has even more respect for Junior than Jerry does.


Yep true about him with JR,but all the other players would be punished.Thats exactly what brung us a title in 90 and I wish Narron would do the same.

flyer85
04-13-2007, 01:05 AM
Sparky wouldn't have done anything to EE, nor would he have had to. A veteran (most likely Rose or Perez) would have taken him aside and made their point during the game.

jmac
04-13-2007, 01:06 AM
BTW, Jr wasn't protecting his hammies, he was cadillacing in his HR trot. It doesn't mean that JR has to run full speed all the time. Jr needs to be smart about how and when he uses his legs. However, his trot to first was not one of those cases where he was going 80-90 percent, he was going half speed at best

As Reds fans...all we talk about is JR and his "pose" or "trot" but in all actuality , if we watch highlights, every player when they think they have hit a hr pose to a certain extent.
No , maybe they dont drop the bat like Jr does but they sure dont take off in a full sprint out of the batter's box. From A-Rod to Rollins to Adam Everett, a player doesnt sprint to first on a supposed (key word =supposed) hr like he would a slow roller to third.
That being said it seems like Jr misjudges his flyballs frequently.

flyer85
04-13-2007, 01:08 AM
That being said it seems like Jr misjudges his flyballs frequently.getting old is hell. Those used to go 10 rows back. :help:

WVPacman
04-13-2007, 01:15 AM
That being said it seems like Jr misjudges his flyballs frequently.

lol I get a big kick out of watching players do that exspecially Bonds.

Jpup
04-13-2007, 02:30 AM
Lou would never show up a player publicly like that unless they were a continual problem.

Ryan Dempster last week.

Razor Shines
04-13-2007, 02:34 AM
which is the partially the point, it was a public humiliation of EE that should have been done more privately and tactfully while still getting the point across.

Did EE deserve the treatment? Not mid-game unless it was a frequent occurrence but I have never seen him not run out a ball before. It should have been handled more privately. Narron could have made the same point by sitting EE the next game and it would have been done without it being so public and being plastered all over ESPN and talked about for two nights. If Narron had sat him Friday it would not have hurt the team last night and it would have been a complete non-story. Instead what was done was a public humiliation of EE. My guess is that EE is upset and has lost a like of respect for Narron.

So Narron is supposed to manage based on what ESPN might talk about on Baseball Tonight? I doubt Narron thought ESPN would even think of discussing this, they rarely talk about anything else the Reds do.

And Narron came out today and said that EE will be in there on Friday and that it's over with. And came out and supported him today. Edwin didn't seem like he lost any respect toward Narron because of this from his comments anyway.

WVRedsFan
04-13-2007, 03:13 AM
Lou would never show up a player publicly like that unless they were a continual problem.

Word.
My whole problem with this whole minor event was he chose to embarrass Edwin. Why, I do not know. Had Edwin shown that this was a problem with him?

As I said in another thread, it reminded me of Miley and the infamous hiding of the easy chairs near his end times.

AS a human being, and if that public of a butt-spanking happens in public, I never forget or forgive that. Edwin said little, but I'd bet that the Narron family doesn't get anymore Christmas cards from the Encarcinon ( or however you spell it) family.

Bad move. Do it in private.

dsmith421
04-13-2007, 03:18 AM
I think Sparky would have done the same thing to EE that Narron did. In regards to Griffey, I would think Sparky was smart enough to know that Griffey was a different situation and with his past leg history it would be wise to treat his legs with care.

Jesus Christ. The kid thought he fouled the ball off. He didn't know it was fair until he saw the second baseman under it. It was a mistake. To characterize it as "loafing" is ludicrous, utterly ludicrous. Unless, of course, you think ballplayers ought to leg out every foul ball.

He made a mistake. That doesn't make it loafing. There was no intent to show laziness.

Narron was just doing his typical impotent disciplinary BS, where he takes the lowest-hanging fruit and demonstrates how hard he is while ignoring similar indiscretions by more established players. He's a company man and is well aware where his bread is buttered.

jmac
04-13-2007, 03:37 AM
Word.
My whole problem with this whole minor event was he chose to embarrass Edwin. Why, I do not know. Had Edwin shown that this was a problem with him?

As I said in another thread, it reminded me of Miley and the infamous hiding of the easy chairs near his end times.

AS a human being, and if that public of a butt-spanking happens in public, I never forget or forgive that. Edwin said little, but I'd bet that the Narron family doesn't get anymore Christmas cards from the Encarcinon ( or however you spell it) family.

Bad move. Do it in private.

People handle these situations differently. Personally I agree with you on not embarrassing someone like that. As a UK fan also , one thing Tubby Smith did that I didnt like(others do this as well) is , the minute a player would make a mistake , you could see a replacement getting ready to come in the game.
Not saying which one is better , just depends on the coach/manager I guess.

Razor Shines
04-13-2007, 03:40 AM
Word.
My whole problem with this whole minor event was he chose to embarrass Edwin. Why, I do not know. Had Edwin shown that this was a problem with him?

As I said in another thread, it reminded me of Miley and the infamous hiding of the easy chairs near his end times.

AS a human being, and if that public of a butt-spanking happens in public, I never forget or forgive that. Edwin said little, but I'd bet that the Narron family doesn't get anymore Christmas cards from the Encarcinon ( or however you spell it) family.

Bad move. Do it in private.

Oh come on. He was taken out of a game, in April no less. You're acting like Narron got on the PA and announced that Edwin was being sent to AAA. Stuff like this happens. People say Lou wouldn't do something like this to a player in public, please. He did it Ryan Dempster a week ago, and everybody was sayin' how great it was and how they wanted Lou to be our manager.

Edwin is in his second season, if Jr. had done that in his second season I'm sure he'd have been taken out of the game too. If Edwin holds a grudge over something as small as this then he has some growing up to do, but I give him more credit than that and I don't really think it's even an issue with either Narron or him anymore. But honestly we don't know one way or the other.

remdog
04-13-2007, 04:05 AM
As Reds fans...all we talk about is JR and his "pose" or "trot" but in all actuality , if we watch highlights, every player when they think they have hit a hr pose to a certain extent.
No , maybe they dont drop the bat like Jr does but they sure dont take off in a full sprint out of the batter's box. From A-Rod to Rollins to Adam Everett, a player doesnt sprint to first on a supposed (key word =supposed) hr like he would a slow roller to third.
That being said it seems like Jr misjudges his flyballs frequently.

Well, here's one player that doesn't pose:

Josh Hamilton, talking about his homer the other night: "“I hit off the end of the bat,” Hamilton said. “I thought it was going to be a routine fly to right field. Then I saw the guy turn his back.

“It was pretty cool.”

And pretty surreal.

“I didn’t realize that I was trotting for a home run until I touched second base,” he said. “It happened so fast. I didn’t take my time. But that’s the way I always do.”

Rem

sonny
04-13-2007, 04:11 AM
Well, here's one player that doesn't pose:

Josh Hamilton, talking about his homer the other night: "“I hit off the end of the bat,” Hamilton said. “I thought it was going to be a routine fly to right field. Then I saw the guy turn his back.

“It was pretty cool.”

And pretty surreal.

“I didn’t realize that I was trotting for a home run until I touched second base,” he said. “It happened so fast. I didn’t take my time. But that’s the way I always do.”

Rem

Thats the way its done!:thumbup:

SunDeck
04-13-2007, 07:55 AM
Vets get treated differently than the youngsters.
Everywhere.
Get over it, Kruk.

Besides, Narron already moved Griffey to right field. If he was afraid to confront him, then the guy would still be in Center.

SunDeck
04-13-2007, 08:03 AM
Yep true about him with JR,but all the other players would be punished.Thats exactly what brung us a title in 90 and I wish Narron would do the same.

I beg to differ.

SP *Tom Browning 3.80
SP Jose Rijo 2.70
SP Jack Armstrong 3.42
SP *Danny Jackson 3.61

CL *Randy Myers 2.08
RP Rob Dibble 1.74
RP Tim Layana 3.49
RP *Norm Charlton 2.74
RP *Tim Birtsas 3.86

MaineRed
04-13-2007, 08:50 AM
Yep true about him with JR,but all the other players would be punished.Thats exactly what brung us a title in 90 and I wish Narron would do the same.

And it has brought Lou how many since?

As was pointed out, ole Lou went to the mound in front of everyone and tore into Ryan Dempster. If Jerry Narron did that after an Edwin Encarnacion errror people would call for him to be fired. Heck they did over this incident.

Caveat Emperor
04-13-2007, 08:56 AM
Jesus Christ. The kid thought he fouled the ball off. He didn't know it was fair until he saw the second baseman under it.

The best thing you can say about Edwin in that particular AB was that he didn't have his head completely in the game. If he did, he'd have noticed A.) Where the foul ball had gone off the bat, B.) The second basemen moving to make a play, C.) Said second baseman recording the put out. This is evidenced by the fact that he didn't move a step from the box the entire AB. Nobody expects someone to hustle out foul balls, but I think its absolutely fair to expect a player to notice that someone is making a play on your baseball out in the field.

I think its uniformly agreed that he's not a player that loafs or even that he loafed on this particular play. What he didn't do was pay attention. For a team thats been sleepwalking on offense for the better part of a week, I'd smack around any player not paying attention too.

hebroncougar
04-13-2007, 09:28 AM
You wouldn't see him treating Junior any differently than Narron does, I can tell you that. Brace yourself redszone but Lou probably has even more respect for Junior than Jerry does.

So by respecting someone, you excuse them from hustling??? That's a new one on me. :confused: I would think if the respect was mutual, the hustle wouldn't come into question. And I'm not foolish enough to think Jr. should be busting it on every single groundball to the right side, or every single popup to the SS, but his lack of hustle is pretty apparent at times IMO.

Always Red
04-13-2007, 10:15 AM
I think John Kruk is being a little disingenuous here, most probably because it creates some controversy and gives the talking heads something to prattle about.

He understands well, as do most others who follow professional sports closely, that there is not one standard which is applied to every player across the board. Younger players are generally held to whatever the "company standard" is, and older players who have proven themselves on the field are treated a little differently, cut a little slack, given a break.

Narron himself said as much during ST when questioned about moving Junior to RF when he said he "respected enormously" what Junior has done on the field during his entire career.

I think that anyone who expects an MLB manager to treat his players like a high school team, with one standard, is maybe a little naive. It's been stated above by many posters, that major league teams are not run that way, there are different standards.

We've been hearing Narron carry on for two years about "playing the game the right way" and then we've watched his team do many of the little things the wrong way! That's why this move was a breath of fresh air for me- not because he punished EE, who I think is a great young player, and will ultimately benefit from this. But because it seems like he means what he says, now.

To me, the bigger issue than Narron taking action is where were the vets? The veteran leadership of this team should have been talking with EE in the dugout, both right after he didn't run, and then afterwards, when Narron removed him from the game. I don't know, maybe they did, in the clubhouse, out of sight. We can only hope so. We have to remember that a lot of things get done and said behind closed doors, that we never hear about. Just maybe Narron has talked with EE in his office before about this very issue? We don't know.

The stories, some of them recounted above, about the BRM vets and how they would guide the younger players themselves on the right way to play the game, are legion. I think Barry Larkin was also this way, both on the field and in the clubhouse. Greg Vaughn, during his short time here, demanded much of the younger players. This team, it seems could use some of that!

This team needs some veteran leadership; it needs the older players to physically show the younger guys how to play the game, how to respect the game, in short, how to be the "professional player" that JN is talking about. Younger players are just like our kids- you can tell them how to do something until you're blue in the face, but kids will always emulate what you actually do. If the vets are walking the walk, the young guys will, too.

Who are the veteran leaders on this team? I can think of two, who are looked up to, are enormously respected, and set the tone for the rest of the team- Adam Dunn, and Ken Griffey, Jr. I have no idea if these two guys are clubhouse leaders or not, or how they relate to the younger players. In terms of age, Dunn really is still a younger player, but in terms of MLB experience he is not.

Conine, Hatte, Gonzalez are all proven vets. Conine and Gonzo have been on world championship teams. I'd like to see these guys step up with Jr and Dunn, and help set an example for the younger guys on the team. I don't mean they need to be rah rah and in their face all of the time, but showing leadership by example, by hard play, and by an occasional word or two at the right time. For all I know, maybe they're already doing that?

jmac
04-13-2007, 11:38 AM
Well, here's one player that doesn't pose:

Josh Hamilton, talking about his homer the other night: "“I hit off the end of the bat,” Hamilton said. “I thought it was going to be a routine fly to right field. Then I saw the guy turn his back.

“It was pretty cool.”

And pretty surreal.

“I didn’t realize that I was trotting for a home run until I touched second base,” he said. “It happened so fast. I didn’t take my time. But that’s the way I always do.”

Rem

You highlighted my word "every".
Notice my keyword..."supposed" hr.(in other words, a player thinks it gone)
Josh said he didnt think it was out but rather a routine fly. Now maybe Josh will do his no-doubters this way(full sprint). Hopefully we will have alot of chances to see.

2001MUgrad
04-13-2007, 12:30 PM
Only time will tell. And, I doubt many on the 70's reds team dogged it like Griffey does pretty much every inning he plays.

What Narron did was a good way to lose respect of your players. I'm sure more players than not will side with EE.

Has anyone here ever felt like they got treated unfairly at work? Or, does anyone feel like a certain co-worker(s) get special treatment over others? How does that make you feel? I doubt baseball players while getting paid much more have any less human emotion when dealing with every day politics of having a job.

PuffyPig
04-13-2007, 12:40 PM
Aren't we begging the question to call what Edwin did "laziness?"

Has that been proven?

I don't think that EE did not run out of laziness, it was more a mental error.

jmac
04-13-2007, 12:41 PM
Only time will tell. And, I doubt many on the 70's reds team dogged it like Griffey does pretty much every inning he plays.

What Narron did was a good way to lose respect of your players. I'm sure more players than not will side with EE.

Has anyone here ever felt like they got treated unfairly at work? Or, does anyone feel like a certain co-worker(s) get special treatment over others? How does that make you feel? I doubt baseball players while getting paid much more have any less human emotion when dealing with every day politics of having a job.

I actually think if Dunn, Jr or whoever hit a fly to RF and just stood in batters box and watched it , JN would do same thing (whether right or wrong is open to debate)
We are talking about sprinting vs jogging vs not running at all.

SunDeck
04-13-2007, 12:55 PM
I don't think that EE did not run out of laziness, it was more a mental error.

I think that should be what Narron said. When I first heard about it I thought exactly the same thing, that in baseball mental errors can cost you a game and because of this Narron was perfectly justified. However, he kept saying that it was about hustle, which to me is somewhat different. Perhaps I'm picking nits, but if Narron had used the phrase "mental error" or said something about being alert and the importance of keeping one's head in the game, then this all would make much more sense.

What Eddie did was the same thing that kids do sometimes- they get mentally lazy. Say the ball had been a soft liner over the 2b's head and EdE would have been thrown out at 1b? That's what Jerry should be talking about.

membengal
04-13-2007, 12:58 PM
Spot on, SunDeck.

kaldaniels
04-13-2007, 01:05 PM
I hate Kruk.

Hey, but you gotta admit, he's not nearly as disgusting as he used to look!

remdog
04-13-2007, 01:16 PM
You highlighted my word "every".
Notice my keyword..."supposed" hr.(in other words, a player thinks it gone)
Josh said he didnt think it was out but rather a routine fly. Now maybe Josh will do his no-doubters this way(full sprint). Hopefully we will have alot of chances to see.

Jr. said that he didn't think his ball was out.

Rem

BigJohn
04-13-2007, 01:31 PM
"It is a wise man who said that there is no greater inequality than the equal treatment of unequals." --Felix Frankfurter


What a hot dog!

Chip R
04-13-2007, 01:45 PM
I don't think that EE did not run out of laziness, it was more a mental error.


True. But the impression that casual fans and some of the media will have of him now is of a lazy player. They see that he has problems with accurate throws to 1st so they assume that he doesn't work on that when it's a fact that he does. Plus he's Hispanic so a lot of people automatically assume he's lazy anyway.

I've seen people compare this to when Reggie Jackson was pulled by Billy Martin and Andruw Jones pulled by Bobby Cox. The difference in this situation is those two players were notorious for loafing while EE is just the opposite. If EE had loafed before, I'd be able to support Narron pulling him. But doing this to someone who can't fight back - so to speak - is just Narron trying to make himself look good. You know darn well he's not going to pull Jr. if he doesn't run hard the next time. And it doesn't matter if there are seperate rules for vets and young players. Narron didn't say that and if Jr. or someone else doesn't hustle like Narron wants, and Narron does nothing, he's opening up a huge can of worms.

redsfanmia
04-13-2007, 06:04 PM
I like what Narron did to EE and I think it further illustrates who is in charge of team. As far as there being two or more sets of rules I think every manager has different sets of rules for each player and or employee. Does your boss treat everyone the same? I know all of my bosses had different rules for nearly every employee thats just a fact of life.

Chip R
04-13-2007, 07:24 PM
As far as there being two or more sets of rules I think every manager has different sets of rules for each player and or employee. Does your boss treat everyone the same? I know all of my bosses had different rules for nearly every employee thats just a fact of life.


And that's great if the players/employees are aware of that fact. But this is Narron's quote, "I don't care if we lose every game, we're not going to play guys who don't hustle. It's as simple as that."

I didn't see any qualifiers in there. I didn't see him say, "except for Jr" or "except for scrappy veterans" or except for players over 30." Whether it was wrong or right to pull EE from the game isn't the issue. The issue is what happens next time Jr. or Dunn or Phillips or Ross or anyone else doesn't hustle. Is he going to lie and say, "So and so was hurt and that's why he didn't run hard"?

If he has 2 sets of rules, he has to make clear what the dividing line is. Is it Jr. and everyone else, or Jr. and Dunn and everyone else or are only Jerry's pets allowed to loaf?

redsfanmia
04-13-2007, 09:16 PM
I thought the club told Jr at one time to take it easy to try to keep him healthy.

Redlegs
04-13-2007, 09:27 PM
I really liked Kruk as a player and a character in the game, however, I can care less what he thinks.

He lost my respect when he read the riot act to this team for designating Danny Graves for assignment. He went on for 2 or 3 minutes talking about how the Reds had no class for giving up on a proven veteran like Graves, yadda, yadda, yadda.

BTW, how'd that work out for Danny anyway? Kruk should just shut up!

Falls City Beer
04-13-2007, 09:32 PM
I thought the club told Jr at one time to take it easy to try to keep him healthy.

Maybe so. But when Jr. literally WALKS to first on a ground out, well, I think you and I both know that's not "keeping himself healthy," that's dogging it.

Chip R
04-13-2007, 10:43 PM
I thought the club told Jr at one time to take it easy to try to keep him healthy.


I'm not trying to be obnoxious here and perhaps I'm taking it too literally but when Narron says, "we're not going to play guys who don't hustle" I don't know how much clearer he can make it. Let's take Jr. out of the equation. Let's use Dunn as an example. I love Dunn but he's not going to make anyone forget Pete Rose. He's making around $10M a year and has been around 5-6 years. Not a veteran but not exactly a callow youth either. It's not exactly out of the realm of possibility that Dunn might hit one to the wall and think it's going out but it falls in and he's only able to make it to 1st since he didn't start running right away. That doesn't seem like hustle to me. Is Narron going to stick to his guns and bench Dunn? Or is he going to ignore it since Dunn is such a prodigious hitter? Time will tell.

UGADaddy
04-13-2007, 10:45 PM
I love the fact that SOME people on here are now saying what I said the other day: EdE did on that play what Griffey does on EVERY play. But be careful, some people on here get pretty touchy when you start talking about The Kid...

Anyway, I agree with Kruk. I hate the double standard. I'd love to see Griffey get benched for lack of hustle (thought I don't see that ever happening). I think Griffey's still decent, but I'd love to see him at least start jogging to first when he hits one to the OF instead of busting into the classic HR trot. It's cost the Reds some bases already this year and will continue to do so until something is done about it.

Team Clark
04-13-2007, 11:18 PM
I thought the club told Jr at one time to take it easy to try to keep him healthy.

Simply because JR. was PLAYING HURT at the time. Not an excuse but that's what was happening. He's not "hurt" now (Subject to change) so all bets are off.

4256 Hits
04-13-2007, 11:26 PM
Worked for Sparky! :laugh:

Sparky's two sets of rules were before and after they game (gave vets more freedoms) but he treated them all the same during the game. But Sparky wouldn't have had to deal w/ Griffey "styling" doubles into singles because Rose would have kick his ass into not costing his team potential runs/wins.

Razor Shines
04-14-2007, 12:01 AM
Maybe so. But when Jr. literally WALKS to first on a ground out, well, I think you and I both know that's not "keeping himself healthy," that's dogging it.

That's flat out not true.

Falls City Beer
04-14-2007, 12:20 AM
That's flat out not true.

Not every time, but if you've not seen him do it, you just aren't looking.

Razor Shines
04-14-2007, 12:33 AM
Not every time, but if you've not seen him do it, you just aren't looking.

He's never walked on a ground out. Never. He may only jog, but there is a huge difference between walking and jogging. If he ever actually walked, "literally walked" on a ground out, then I'd be calling for him to be benched.

Falls City Beer
04-14-2007, 12:36 AM
He's never walked on a ground out. Never. He may only jog, but there is a huge difference between walking and jogging. If he ever actually walked, "literally walked" on a ground out, then I'd be calling for him to be benched.

With my very own eyes I've seen the guy flip his bat and saunter down the baseline (not jogging) on the third out. He shouldn't be killed for it, and I genuinely don't care all that much, I'm just stating a fact.

jmac
04-14-2007, 01:00 AM
Simply because JR. was PLAYING HURT at the time. Not an excuse but that's what was happening. He's not "hurt" now (Subject to change) so all bets are off.

Here is the way I see Jr. Marty was bashing him with Hal today when Hal said it is more than Jr.
First , I have not seen Jr on every AB but I have never seen him literally "walk" to first on a grounder(maybe FCB has, just sayin I havent).
Jr 's leg or hammy is being held together with screws.Some have said what he is doing to even play on it is remarkable. Basically he will not or it is highly unlikely he will be traded.
So would people rather see him play and maybe get 30/80 out of him and at least get a little on the 9-12 million he is making or bust it on a groundout, go back to the DL and let people rip him for what he is making setting on the bench.
Sometimes it is aggravating watching what appears to be halfheartedness but as I said he is put together with screws and we aint talking Bionic Man stlye: not better , stronger, faster but rather older , slower, more brittle .
I am not speaking of "walking" or "gawking" down to first but rather him busting it down to first on a routine grounder as Marty seemed to be implying today. As Hal said...others do it besides Jr and they arent 38 and barely pieced together. In other words ...no excuses.
Jr hits a sharp grounder and runs Ryan Freel style....possibly done for year.....and 9-12 sets on bench again.

Razor Shines
04-14-2007, 01:12 AM
With my very own eyes I've seen the guy flip his bat and saunter down the baseline (not jogging) on the third out. He shouldn't be killed for it, and I genuinely don't care all that much, I'm just stating a fact.

Alright, I have no reason or desire to accuse you of lying, so if you've seen it, you've seen it. I haven't. I've been to my share of games and I've watched pretty much every game possible over the last few years I just haven't every seen him walk. Oh well.

Falls City Beer
04-14-2007, 01:20 AM
Alright, I have no reason or desire to accuse you of lying, so if you've seen it, you've seen it. I haven't. I've been to my share of games and I've watched pretty much every game possible over the last few years I just haven't every seen him walk. Oh well.

Griffey probably does it more out of frustration than dogging it, but let's face it, the stupidity of benching EdE for something as nebulous as confusion over the location of a ball just points up the craziness of the discussion in the first place.
I don't think benching does a 25 year old man any good. Nor do I think getting in Griffey's face is going to do a damn bit of good.

It's a tempest in a teapot, IMO.

WVRedsFan
04-14-2007, 02:51 AM
For crying out loud.

We have a hall of famer playing for us and all we can talk about, even though he's not the subject of this debate, is whether or not you should pull Griffey froma game because some stupid ( and I should have bolded the word stupid) manager who thought he was going to make an example out of Edwin E.

I've said it before (and probably in this thread) that Narron doesn't have a clue. He makes a statement for a young player and all of a sudden it all starts to focus on Ken Griffey Junior mainly because he makes lots of money. Which is the stupidity of Narron's move. For months now, we will be looking for someone to "dog" it and see if Jerry makes the same move, which he won't. And if he did, it would please some folks because Griffey makes lots of money and hasn't played up to people's expectations because he makes all that money. It was a stupid move that might have cost the team a win, but people, some people, like it because he showing "who's boss". Which is stupid. The day he does this to Ken Griffey Junior is the day he ceases to be the manager of the Reds. And he knows it.

Just one more reason why Jerry Narron is not a championship manager nor will he ever be. And like I've said before, Edwin will not forget this and come negotiation time, he and his agent will be very hard to deal with. Intelligent managers would have handled this differently. Like it or not it was a mistake.

kaldaniels
04-14-2007, 02:52 AM
Here is the way I see Jr. Marty was bashing him with Hal today when Hal said it is more than Jr.
First , I have not seen Jr on every AB but I have never seen him literally "walk" to first on a grounder(maybe FCB has, just sayin I havent).
Jr 's leg or hammy is being held together with screws.Some have said what he is doing to even play on it is remarkable. Basically he will not or it is highly unlikely he will be traded.
So would people rather see him play and maybe get 30/80 out of him and at least get a little on the 9-12 million he is making or bust it on a groundout, go back to the DL and let people rip him for what he is making setting on the bench.
Sometimes it is aggravating watching what appears to be halfheartedness but as I said he is put together with screws and we aint talking Bionic Man stlye: not better , stronger, faster but rather older , slower, more brittle .
I am not speaking of "walking" or "gawking" down to first but rather him busting it down to first on a routine grounder as Marty seemed to be implying today. As Hal said...others do it besides Jr and they arent 38 and barely pieced together. In other words ...no excuses.
Jr hits a sharp grounder and runs Ryan Freel style....possibly done for year.....and 9-12 sets on bench again.

Nothing against you Jmac but I am tired of these "held together by screws" remarks that run rampant across these boards regarding Griffey. There are pitchers around the league whose arms are held together by screws but they are able to fire it up to home plate. Granted, his injury history dictates that he may have to pull up on plays that other players could make/attempt, but Jr. does not have a doctors excuse that gives him permission to lolly-gag down to first base. I look the other way on Jr.'s behavior on routine ground balls, but to act as him his leg will shatter if he exerts himself 25 percent is prepoustorous. This post is not directed negatively at Jr., but face it, asking him to run half-speed to first base is just a drop in the bucket in terms of exertition placed on his hammy over the course of a game and his daily life.

WVRedsFan
04-14-2007, 02:54 AM
Oh come on. He was taken out of a game, in April no less. You're acting like Narron got on the PA and announced that Edwin was being sent to AAA. Stuff like this happens. People say Lou wouldn't do something like this to a player in public, please. He did it Ryan Dempster a week ago, and everybody was sayin' how great it was and how they wanted Lou to be our manager.

Edwin is in his second season, if Jr. had done that in his second season I'm sure he'd have been taken out of the game too. If Edwin holds a grudge over something as small as this then he has some growing up to do, but I give him more credit than that and I don't really think it's even an issue with either Narron or him anymore. But honestly we don't know one way or the other.

Hide and watch.

Razor Shines
04-14-2007, 03:01 AM
Hide and watch.

Would you care to expound on that?

WVRedsFan
04-14-2007, 03:42 AM
Would you care to expound on that?

See Edwin's reaction if and when he becomes the superstar I think he will become at negotiation time. And it will happen if Narron is still around, which I hope he will not be. The losing attitude of the team and fans will continue if he is.

Razor Shines
04-14-2007, 03:47 AM
See Edwin's reaction if and when he becomes the superstar I think he will become at negotiation time. And it will happen if Narron is still around, which I hope he will not be. The losing attitude of the team and fans will continue if he is.

Oh ok, I didn't know what you were getting at.

Well like I said if Edwin is going to hold a grudge because of being pulled out of a game then he has some growing up to do, but if he can use it to get a better contract then more power to him, I guess. I hope he starts hitting soon so we get to see what happens when he becomes a superstar.

Always Red
04-14-2007, 07:46 AM
Nothing against you Jmac but I am tired of these "held together by screws" remarks that run rampant across these boards regarding Griffey. There are pitchers around the league whose arms are held together by screws but they are able to fire it up to home plate. Granted, his injury history dictates that he may have to pull up on plays that other players could make/attempt, but Jr. does not have a doctors excuse that gives him permission to lolly-gag down to first base. I look the other way on Jr.'s behavior on routine ground balls, but to act as him his leg will shatter if he exerts himself 25 percent is prepoustorous. This post is not directed negatively at Jr., but face it, asking him to run half-speed to first base is just a drop in the bucket in terms of exertition placed on his hammy over the course of a game and his daily life.

I'm with you 100% on this, kal. Every defense I read of Jr begins with "well, look his leg is held together by screws..."

This is not a Jr attack, nor a Jr defense, but just some basic medical facts...

I'm a medical type, and I'm here to tell you, with 100% certainty, that his leg and hamstring is definitely NOT held together by screws. It's not like if a screw breaks or backs out, Jr will fall to the ground in a crumpled heap. :rolleyes: The screws could actually be removed now, and Jr would be fine, same as he is right now. For all we know, maybe those screws have been removed- sometimes orthopedic hardware is removed after the healing process, sometimes it is not.:fineprint

The screws are placed during the surgery in order to hold things (bones, tendon, ligaments, grafts) in place. Generally they are made of titanium, which is very bio-inert. The body then heals itself (or it doesn't, as the case may be). All the doc can do is put things in the proper place, and provide the right environment for healing.

Jr did have very unusual surgery on his leg/hamstring, and Doc Kremcheck is to be commended for what he did for Junior. Personally, I think it's amazing that Jr is still able to run at all. I certainly can't blame Jr for not sprinting all out all of the time; it's just not necessary or healthy for him to do so.

OK, back to our regularly scheduled argument...;)

Chip R
04-14-2007, 09:41 AM
Oh ok, I didn't know what you were getting at.

Well like I said if Edwin is going to hold a grudge because of being pulled out of a game then he has some growing up to do, but if he can use it to get a better contract then more power to him, I guess. I hope he starts hitting soon so we get to see what happens when he becomes a superstar.


If it were an isolated incident, I'd agree. But, as I've said either in another thread or in this thread, it seems Edwin and Narron have a bit of history. From the time he came up for a cup of coffee and didn't play to his extended rehab stint to his being replaced defensively to this. Even if it's all just a coincidence, you can't but wonder if Edwin feels that he's Narron's whipping boy.

RANDY IN INDY
04-14-2007, 09:48 AM
Makes me wonder what he is doing to be "Narron's whipping boy." That would probably answer a lot of questions.

Razor Shines
04-14-2007, 11:28 AM
If it were an isolated incident, I'd agree. But, as I've said either in another thread or in this thread, it seems Edwin and Narron have a bit of history. From the time he came up for a cup of coffee and didn't play to his extended rehab stint to his being replaced defensively to this. Even if it's all just a coincidence, you can't but wonder if Edwin feels that he's Narron's whipping boy.

He had 211 ABs from his debut at the end of June in his cup of coffee. Not many guys play every day in their debut season, you may have wanted him to, but I don't think that means that Narron "had it in" for him.

Last year he was making a lot of errors, Dunn gets pulled late in games too, is he Narron's whipping boy also? You may think it's stupid to pull offense for defense late and games and I may say you have a point but I don't think it's anything against either of those guys.

EE did come back alot better on D after that extended rehab. From what I understand he worked very hard on his defensive mechanics. I've been told by people on this board that you can't make that much of an improvement without playing in games everyday, I happen to disagree. I think you can make a great improvement from just practice when you're talking about a flaw in technique, I think you can make it become automatic from practice.

I just don't think that those other things were punishments, I think Narron was just trying to do what he thought was best for the team. Obviously pretty much everyone else on this board sees them differently, so I could be wrong.

jmac
04-14-2007, 11:43 AM
I'm with you 100% on this, kal. Every defense I read of Jr begins with "well, look his leg is held together by screws..."



Jr did have very unusual surgery on his leg/hamstring, and Doc Kremcheck is to be commended for what he did for Junior. Personally, I think it's amazing that Jr is still able to run at all. I certainly can't blame Jr for not sprinting all out all of the time; it's just not necessary or healthy for him to do so.



I think some people that make this statement dont mean literally looking at his leg and seeing screws sticking out.
As I said he is more brittle, older, and untradeable. My post on this was in regards to Marty's bashing with Hal in regards to running out every routine grounder "ryan freel style". I would rather see him on the field contribute something whether it's 30/80 or 20/70 rather than see the 12 million(or whatever it is) on the DL again.

kaldaniels
04-14-2007, 01:04 PM
I think some people that make this statement dont mean literally looking at his leg and seeing screws sticking out.
As I said he is more brittle, older, and untradeable. My post on this was in regards to Marty's bashing with Hal in regards to running out every routine grounder "ryan freel style". I would rather see him on the field contribute something whether it's 30/80 or 20/70 rather than see the 12 million(or whatever it is) on the DL again.

My post really wasn't debating what holds Jr's legs together although Alwaysred did a nice job explaining that. My problem is the people who act like it is a medical neccesity that Jr. strolls down to first base. Never ever ever do I expect Ryan Freel style, nor do I demand 100 percent hustle from Jr. given his injury history. But, he is very capable of a jog/light run to first base that would at least pressure the defense or put him on first in case of an error.

jmac
04-14-2007, 01:10 PM
My post really wasn't debating what holds Jr's legs together although Alwaysred did a nice job explaining that. My problem is the people who act like it is a medical neccesity that Jr. strolls down to first base. Never ever ever do I expect Ryan Freel style, nor do I demand 100 percent hustle from Jr. given his injury history. But, he is very capable of a jog/light run to first base that would at least pressure the defense or put him on first in case of an error.

gotcha :thumbup: