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savafan
04-13-2007, 10:41 PM
Unreal, kid acts like a kid and gets arrested.

http://www.slate.com/id/2164004/entry/0/

Avon Park, Fla., is a zero-tolerance kind of place.

On March 28, Desre'e Watson, a 6-year-old kindergarten student at Avon Elementary School, had a bad morning. She cried. She wailed. She kicked. She scratched. She hit a teacher. That's what the police say, anyway.

The police? That's right. To subdue the unruly kindergartner, school officials phoned Avon Park's police department ("committed to enhancing the 'Quality of Life' of the community"). When the cops arrived, young Desre'e attempted to resist arrest by crawling under a table. But Avon Park's finest pulled her out, cuffed her, put her in a police cruiser, drove her to the county jail, and charged this 50-pound menace with a felony and two misdemeanors. The police report is below.

"When there is an outburst of violence," Police Chief Frank Mercurio told a local news station, "we have a duty to protect and make that school a safe environment for the students, staff and faculty. That's why, at this point, the person was arrested regardless what the age." Let's hope his message gets across to those brats in the neonatal wards.

http://img.slate.com/media/1/123125/2137821/2156517/2161916/2164003/juvenile-delinquent.jpg

justincredible
04-13-2007, 11:34 PM
Wow. That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. Next time I see a little kid having a tantrum I will be sure and call the cops.:rolleyes:

reds1869
04-14-2007, 12:00 AM
My goodness, at my school they would just pick her up, call her parents and wait for her to calm down. Calling in the police on a kid that young is ludicrous.

Ravenlord
04-14-2007, 12:37 AM
this is what happens when you can't discipline children without worrying about getting a felony of your own.

TeamBoone
04-14-2007, 01:01 AM
You can bet your life that if her PARENTS hand handcuffed her until she calmed down, their butts would be sitting in jail.

macro
04-14-2007, 02:57 AM
sava, today is April 14. You're thirteen days late with the April Fool's joke.




What?!...This is for real?!

GAC
04-14-2007, 04:57 AM
This is not the first instance of this happening to a elementary level child being handcuffed and arrested by the police. This is what happens, IMHO, when they have taken discipline out of the public schools. Yes, it is also a problem that could very well have it's roots in the home and with parents. But when your child is in school they are in someone else's domain, not the home.

And when the children KNOW that the school cannot do anything, or at least very little, when it comes to disciplining them for being unruly or violating school policy, then you have created a serious problem. I have three kids, ranging from 18 down to 11. I am a pretty involved parent with the school and my kid's teachers, and always have been. And I have some close friends who are teachers also. And in conversations with them they have expressed frustration over this very position, and having their hands tied when it comes to exercising control and discipline. And it's not the kids as much as it's the parents.

TeamBoone
04-14-2007, 11:08 AM
This is what happens, IMHO, when they have taken discipline out of the public schools. Yes, it is also a problem that could very well have it's roots in the home and with parents. But when your child is in school they are in someone else's domain, not the home.


Personally, a lot of this is what has happened as a result of discipline being taken out of the hands of parents.

About the only thing you can now do LEGALLY to punish a child is to give them a talking to, a time out, or to take a fun activity away. You can not reason with a toddler, which is when the seeds of good behavior are sown.

redsfan30
04-14-2007, 01:46 PM
this is what happens when you can't discipline children without worrying about getting a felony of your own.

This is the real issue.

Redsfaithful
04-14-2007, 11:56 PM
This is what happens when you live in a police state. This isn't because parents aren't allowed to beat their children.

Ravenlord
04-15-2007, 03:35 AM
This isn't because parents aren't allowed to beat their children.

my parents had social services called on them for yelling at me in a Kroger when i was 4. there's a whole lot more to the 'lack of discipline' angle than beatings. things of this nature have also been going on longer than the "police state" era.

GAC
04-15-2007, 07:49 AM
This is what happens when you live in a police state. This isn't because parents aren't allowed to beat their children.

We don't live in a "police state". That's ridiculous. But when the teachers/school basically have their hands tied behind their backs when it comes to unruly children, and that they could get sued or in trouble for trying to control/discipline the child - and I'm not necessarily referring to spanking either - then that is why they call the police. What are they suppose to do? Call the parents in and have a talk with them. What if the parents are part of the problem?

Beat children? So you relegate spanking a child to beating, and possibly abusive? I'm not saying their aren't or haven't been instances of it; but you don't "throw out the baby with the bath water" so to speak.

There are obviously some rules one must follow when it comes to spanking a child. Dr James Dobson gave some excellent advice that I always followed...

#1 - you never spank a child under two.

#2 - set reasonable boundaries within the house and insure the child understands them.

#3 - you don't spank a child for instances of childish immaturity (not putting away toys, picking up clothes, etc). As a parent, know the difference between that, and a child who willfully and purposely steps across that "line" in order to test a parent's authority. And yes, kids do that. They are not stupid. I, and my brothers, did it quite frequently. As well as a couple of my kids. It was situations where the kid was saying "I know what you said, but I'm calling your bluff, and lets see if you really mean it?" I did. So did my parents. And "time outs" or taking away privileges don't always work. I know from experience. A majority of kids will say
it was well worth the trade off, and a "piece of cake" to have to sit in the corner, for what they got away with. It isn't always enough to dissuade them from continually doing it. With some it will, but not a lot of kids.

#4 - never use the hand. The child will then always "associate" the parent's hand to something bad. Use a paddle.

#5 - never spank in anger.

#6 - and the most important step.... afterwards, use positive re-inforcement to talk with your child, emphasis your care and love for them, and the reason as to why you had to discipline them. To respect not only YOUR authority, but authority in general. That is what life is about, and they need to realize that, and understand it early.

My Mom and Dad were loving, involved parents. But they spanked all three of us boys when we crossed that line and knew better. I also got cracked a few times in school. And as I sit here know, and reflect back on everyone of those instances, I can say without reservation that I deserved it because I was purposely trying to usurp either that parent, or that teacher's, authority, and exercise my own control. I don't hate my parents or teachers for it. And once any authority "figure" loses that control, then they are in trouble.

I, and my brothers, were not emotionally scarred for life, nor traumitized, because we got spanked.

My sister (and husband) were foster parents for many years. They had some good kids, and also some downright monsters. Yes, they all came from broken homes and various situations. But that is no reasn/excuse to allow them to get away with basically "murder" in your household, ad take away control. And "timeouts" or sitting in a corner didn't always work. Yet these kids knew, because Child Services always told them, that their foster parents could never lay a hand on them (spank). And they played that angle up to the hlt to get away with a lot.... "You can't lay a hand on me!"

She still maintains contact with a few of them, and they have turned out OK. But several others have been in and out of trouble, and a couple are now in prison because no one tells them what to do. The never learned respect for authority or laws.

And I'm not saying that as a parent you don;t atempt to teach and instill those values int your child, and that it can't be done without discipline (spanking). Yes it can; but not in every instance. All kids are not the same - different temperment/dispositions. But when it was required, we used it. And our kids aren't scarred either. Pretty well adjusted teenagers.

StillFunkyB
04-15-2007, 07:52 AM
Bring back the wooden spoon.

My momma could do some damage with that thing. I couldn't sit for at least an hour.

GAC
04-15-2007, 08:02 AM
Bring back the wooden spoon.

My momma could do some damage with that thing. I couldn't sit for at least an hour.

Do you see yourself as emotionally traumitized and scarred because of it?

Hot Wheel strips. Man did those sting! :eek:

We'd get a Hot Wheels set for Christmas, and my brothers and I would just look at each other with mixed signals as to who the "gift" was for. :mooner:

Those thin plastic yellow wiffle ball bats hurt to. My Dad probably OPS'd over 1.000 on our butts.

You know what the biggest worry was for us? When my Mom would say "Wait till your Dad gets home!" It shot your whole day because of the wait. It was an emotional hell that hurt far worse then the spanking! :lol:

RedFanAlways1966
04-15-2007, 09:14 AM
Those thin plastic yellow wiffle ball bats hurt to. My Dad probably OPS'd over 1.000 on our butts.

:laugh: :laugh:

guttle11
04-15-2007, 09:59 AM
Those thin plastic yellow wiffle ball bats hurt to. My Dad probably OPS'd over 1.000 on our butts.

:laugh:

I'd want my dad to be Juan Castro in that case.

Redsfaithful
04-15-2007, 10:20 AM
my parents had social services called on them for yelling at me in a Kroger when i was 4. there's a whole lot more to the 'lack of discipline' angle than beatings. things of this nature have also been going on longer than the "police state" era.

You can call social services on someone for anything. It doesn't mean they'll do anything.

If anything I'd say that social services doesn't remove children from homes often enough, and that parents are allowed to get away with far too much.

Sorry for the tangent, I guess this doesn't really have anything to do with a 6 year old kid having to go downtown for throwing a fit. Which is so incredibly ridiculous that I can't believe anyone would even try to find a sufficient reason for it (i.e. this is what happens when parents aren't allowed to discipline).

GAC
04-15-2007, 11:36 AM
Sorry for the tangent, I guess this doesn't really have anything to do with a 6 year old kid having to go downtown for throwing a fit. Which is so incredibly ridiculous that I can't believe anyone would even try to find a sufficient reason for it (i.e. this is what happens when parents aren't allowed to discipline).

I agree with you that it is absolutely ridiculous. But who has created these types of situations when it comes to unruly children (even teenagers) in our schools, and the schools/teachers are very limited in scope to what they can do to control such a kid?

Calling the police is about all one can do in those situations.

westofyou
04-15-2007, 11:42 AM
Bring back the wooden spoon.

My momma could do some damage with that thing. I couldn't sit for at least an hour.

Mine too, she also would slam her 100 pounds down on my foot with her little 1 inch heels to make a point... this of course was when I passed her in height

Chip R
04-15-2007, 11:48 AM
Calling the police is about all one can do in those situations.


Uh, no. Calling the police is a cop-out - no pun intended. This is a school. There are supposed to be people there with knowledge. Surely having the police come down and arrest a 6 year old little girl and charge her with felonies isn't a way to handle things. Surely they could have taken her to an empty room where she couldn't hurt anyone except herself. They could have sent her home, they could have done other things. But having her arrested? I can't believe the police actually arrested her and charged her. Bet that'll be a feather in the DA's cap. What are they going to do if they find her guilty, give her the chair? That'll teach those kids not to have temper tantrums. :rolleyes:

westofyou
04-15-2007, 11:56 AM
Uh, no. Calling the police is a cop-out - no pun intended.

If you can't control a six year old then you have no business being in an elementary school.

If you have to handcuff a child then you need to take a good look at a career change.

MaineRed
04-15-2007, 01:02 PM
If you can't control a six year old then you have no business being in an elementary school.

If you have to handcuff a child then you need to take a good look at a career change.

This is the point. There are people there who could EASILY "control" that kid. But they'd be the ones in jail.

Knowing what i know about schools, this is probably what happened. This kid has been a problem long before this, even though she is only six. The parents have been spoken too or a previous incident took place where the parent did not like how the kid was handled. The parent, who probably is on well fare and spends all the money on scratch tickets and vodka probably had a profanity laced tirade where he or she told the principal how the kid was smarter than all of the teachers and that it was the teachers who were the problem, etc, etc.

I don't know if it was true when I was in school but kids are CRAZY these days, CRAZY. They don't just throw tantrums they throw fits of rage that would get most adults arrested. At what point is a kid too young? Can you arrest a 13 year old for something?

What about a 12 year old? How about 11? Where do you draw the line?

I don't think a classroom full of six year olds is where any of you want to be right now. And at the end of the day you'd be pulling your hair out over the moronic parents, not the raged up kids.

Redsfaithful
04-15-2007, 07:23 PM
I don't know if it was true when I was in school but kids are CRAZY these days, CRAZY. They don't just throw tantrums they throw fits of rage that would get most adults arrested.


Kids these days with their music and their clothes and the hair, and get off my damn lawn.

I don't care if it was the 75th fit the kid threw this year, you still don't need to call the police. It's a six year old. This is common sense.

westofyou
04-15-2007, 07:33 PM
The parent, who probably is on well fare and spends all the money on scratch tickets and vodka probably had a profanity laced tirade where he or she told the principal how the kid was smarter than all of the teachers and that it was the teachers who were the problem, etc, etc.

Or you're probably introducing a red herring that stinks to high heaven.


"I was very upset and felt like they violated my baby's rights. I am very upset about it," said Wilson, adding that she wants to find out "what really went on."


http://media.www.mclabeacon.com/media/storage/paper802/news/2007/04/05/WebExclusives/Kindergarten.Student.Arrested-2820739.shtml


According to the authorities, there were no other options.

“The student became violent,” said Frank Mercurio, the no-nonsense chief of the Avon Park police. “She was yelling, screaming — just being uncontrollable. Defiant.”

“But she was 6,” I said.

The chief’s reply came faster than a speeding bullet: “Do you think this is the first 6-year-old we’ve arrested?”

The child’s tantrum occurred on the morning of March 28 at the Avon Elementary School. According to the police report, “Watson was upset and crying and wailing and would not leave the classroom to let them study, causing a disruption of the normal class activities.”

After a few minutes, Desre’e was, in fact, taken to another room. She was “isolated,” the chief said. But she would not calm down. She flailed away at the teachers who tried to control her. She pulled one woman’s hair. She was kicking.

I asked the chief if anyone had been hurt. “Yes,” he said. At least one woman reported “some redness.”

After 20 minutes of this “uncontrollable” behavior, the police were called in. At the sight of the two officers, Chief Mercurio said, Desre’e “tried to take flight.”

She went under a table. One of the police officers went after her. Each time the officer tried to grab her to drag her out, Desre’e would pull her legs away, the chief said.

Ultimately the child was no match for Avon Park’s finest. The cops pulled her from under the table and handcuffed her. The officers were not fooling around. In the eyes of the cops the 6-year-old was a criminal, and in Avon Park she would be treated like any other felon.

There was a problem, though. The handcuffs were not manufactured with kindergarten kids in mind. The chief explained: “You can’t handcuff them on their wrists because their wrists are too small, so you have to handcuff them up by their biceps.”

http://www.mercurynews.com/opinion/ci_5639946

GAC
04-15-2007, 10:07 PM
Uh, no. Calling the police is a cop-out - no pun intended. This is a school. There are supposed to be people there with knowledge. Surely having the police come down and arrest a 6 year old little girl and charge her with felonies isn't a way to handle things. Surely they could have taken her to an empty room where she couldn't hurt anyone except herself. They could have sent her home, they could have done other things. But having her arrested? I can't believe the police actually arrested her and charged her. Bet that'll be a feather in the DA's cap. What are they going to do if they find her guilty, give her the chair? That'll teach those kids not to have temper tantrums. :rolleyes:

I am not agreeing with, nor condoning, calling the police. Of course it was ridiculous. Just simply stating that because schools have had their hands tied when it comes to discipline, they are left with few alternatives.

Send her home? Geez! I'd be having temper tantrums every day then if it got me out of school. :mooner:

We really don't have many particulars on this child. Is she simply a spoiled little brat who has learned that throwing these tantrums at home has helped her get her way and exercise control? So if it works at home, then why not at school? If that is the case, then there is very little the school can do if the parents are condoning/promoting this behavior.

All I can say is she is gonna have lots of problems in life if that is the case.

MaineRed
04-15-2007, 10:18 PM
I agree GAC. It always seems in these cases the public is quick to jump to conclusions that the educators are at fault or the crazy ones.

There are six year olds who are very violent. A lot more than most of you would realize.

vaticanplum
04-15-2007, 10:23 PM
:bang:

Falls City Beer
04-15-2007, 10:35 PM
I was never struck by parents. Not once.

I have two advanced degrees, a career I love, a beautiful wife, and two beautiful daughters.

Wha happuhn?

Larkin Fan
04-15-2007, 10:42 PM
I agree GAC. It always seems in these cases the public is quick to jump to conclusions that the educators are at fault or the crazy ones.

That perception certainly didn't stop you from jumping to the following conclusions:


The parent, who probably is on well fare and spends all the money on scratch tickets and vodka probably had a profanity laced tirade where he or she told the principal how the kid was smarter than all of the teachers and that it was the teachers who were the problem, etc, etc.

Can you say: Pot meet kettle?

vaticanplum
04-15-2007, 10:44 PM
I was never struck by parents. Not once.

I have two advanced degrees, a career I love, a beautiful wife, and two beautiful daughters.

Wha happuhn?

Small sample size. Obvs.

Larkin Fan
04-15-2007, 10:47 PM
We really don't have many particulars on this child. Is she simply a spoiled little brat who has learned that throwing these tantrums at home has helped her get her way and exercise control? So if it works at home, then why not at school? If that is the case, then there is very little the school can do if the parents are condoning/promoting this behavior.

Or perhaps she has a close loved one that is deathly ill? Or her parents are going through a divorce? Kids act out for a variety of reasons and in a variety of different ways. The fact of the matter is that she is a six year old child. Society can't apply the same standards to a child that they apply to an adult or even a teenager in this case. Calling the police and making this a criminal matter is far beyond excessive and an abuse of power. There's just no way to defend it.

vaticanplum
04-15-2007, 11:08 PM
This is really a glorification of Larkin Fan's post, but I don't really care what this kid has been through, or how her parents have raised her; whether they're on welfare or the Forbes 500 or whether they hit her or not. The fact of the matter is that arresting a six-year-old is a completely inappropriate way to deal with a situation. To those of you who think it's a truly beneficial move: how does she stand to benefit from this? True discipline comes from consistency; she's had no precedent set leading her to believe that any misbehavior would lead to an arrest with handcuffs on her arms. The (justifiable) public outcry over this makes it more of a circus than a matter of discipline and it's unlikely to happen again. And if it were to happen again -- do you condone that? Should we ask the police to come in and take care of all screaming children in public places, taking their time and resources away from, you know, actual crime? It's not going to happen. She does not stand to learn to control her behavior from this arrest.

And to those of you who condone this behavior because of its effect on some kind of greater scale -- a "message" being sent, if you will -- how do you think that will really work? Again, do you want the police to be devoting much time to this to take care of parents who don't discipline their children at home? Who sets the standard of discipline? Do we quiz parents at hospitals, and if they state intentions never to spank their children, do we hire out a policeman to check on the house once a week and handcuff the children if they're misbehaving?

It's quite possible that children are acting up more in school than they used to. That's an entirely separate discussion. It has nothing to do with the police force. There's no reason to arrest a six-year-old for a temper tantrum, period. It serves no purpose.

Slyder
04-15-2007, 11:15 PM
I wish this was from some site like The Onion but its not... It actually happened. Thats just screwed up.

guttle11
04-15-2007, 11:41 PM
This is really a glorification of Larkin Fan's post, but I don't really care what this kid has been through, or how her parents have raised her; whether they're on welfare or the Forbes 500 or whether they hit her or not. The fact of the matter is that arresting a six-year-old is a completely inappropriate way to deal with a situation. To those of you who think it's a truly beneficial move: how does she stand to benefit from this? True discipline comes from consistency; she's had no precedent set leading her to believe that any misbehavior would lead to an arrest with handcuffs on her arms. The (justifiable) public outcry over this makes it more of a circus than a matter of discipline and it's unlikely to happen again. And if it were to happen again -- do you condone that? Should we ask the police to come in and take care of all screaming children in public places, taking their time and resources away from, you know, actual crime? It's not going to happen. She does not stand to learn to control her behavior from this arrest.

And to those of you who condone this behavior because of its effect on some kind of greater scale -- a "message" being sent, if you will -- how do you think that will really work? Again, do you want the police to be devoting much time to this to take care of parents who don't discipline their children at home? Who sets the standard of discipline? Do we quiz parents at hospitals, and if they state intentions never to spank their children, do we hire out a policeman to check on the house once a week and handcuff the children if they're misbehaving?

It's quite possible that children are acting up more in school than they used to. That's an entirely separate discussion. It has nothing to do with the police force. There's no reason to arrest a six-year-old for a temper tantrum, period. It serves no purpose.

Great post. I'm not a parent, teacher, or even someone that has taken care of a child more than a few times, but arresting a 6 year old is ludicrous. There is no way she understands that what she was doing is truly wrong.

It just sets a terrifying precedent.

Chip R
04-15-2007, 11:45 PM
I'm just glad the cops didn't have to call in the National Guard to take care of this child.

Larkin Fan
04-15-2007, 11:46 PM
I'm just glad the cops didn't have to call in the National Guard to take care of this child.

I heard SWAT was on standby. Especially when the officer had to crawl after her.

guttle11
04-15-2007, 11:49 PM
I heard SWAT was on standby. Especially when the officer had to crawl after her.

They were about to throw the animal phone in to try and moo her out.



I'm sorry.

westofyou
04-15-2007, 11:50 PM
I'm just glad the cops didn't have to call in the National Guard to take care of this child.

http://www.smithbowen.net/linfame/chuckie.jpg

Yachtzee
04-16-2007, 12:12 AM
In my current job, I receive the daily call sheets for the local police department in my email every morning. You would be surprised by the number of times police are called to handle problems with unruly children. The crazy thing about it is that it's not schools who are calling the police on these kids, it their own parents. It's sad really to see parents call the police to handle their 8 year old kid because they can't or won't deal with it themselves.

Charging a 6 year old with a felony is pretty extreme. Apparently Florida found it necessary to make Battery of a School Employee a 3rd Degree Felony. I wouldn't think it was intended to cover temper tantrums by 6 year olds.

919191
04-16-2007, 01:09 AM
Last school year, in my son'e second grade class, he had a classmate who had previously attended another school. My wife was volunteering to assist the teacher every Tuesday and saw alot of this firsthand. The boy's mom wasn;t in the picture at all. Why I don't know- indifference, jail, dead, I don't know. He lived with his dad. I saw him sometimes. I know you can't tell by looking, but the meth problem here is bad enough to have reported in the regional press alot, and I would bet his dad knew alot about it--but I could be wrong. I don't judge folks by their looks- at least I try not too, but I bet I am right in this case. The boy never ever brought home completed homework. My wife thought it never even left his backpack. My wife said he seemed smart enough, and was usually nice, but occaisionally he would lose it. By lose it I mean throw books across the room and overturn his desk and tables. HJe would toss his chair. He was truly a danger to the other kids. The teacher, who I regard as a true assett, stood maybe 4'11'' and couldn't have weighed more than 90. He had an outburst so bad the school called the police and the boy was removed. I am sure he wasn't arrested- juveniles aren't really arrrested anyway, but "processed" , but he was removed from the school. What became of him I don't know, but I think here the right call was made. Sometimes the police may be needed.

paintmered
04-16-2007, 01:34 AM
Aren't there other adults in the school besides the teacher that can respond to these kinds of incidents? What kind of situation would it take for multiple adults to be unable to physically control a child? If other children are in potential danger, can't a teacher/principal use minimal force (i.e. lay hands) to restrain the child?

Unless there's a deadly weapon involved, don't call the police. I mean, what is the teacher/principal going to do while waiting for the cops to arrive? Sit back and watch it all happen? "No, no Timmy. Don't throw that pair of scissors at Sarah or you will get your name written on the board." That sure wasn't the way things happened at my school. And before I tell you to get off my lawn, I graduated in this decade.

It appears a few people failed to do their job in this incident. At least the cops did their job right.

creek14
04-16-2007, 03:35 AM
You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I tend to think there is a lot more to this story than what is in print.

Any more if you lay a finger on a child in school you'll find yourself (at least with the threat of being) in court.

My brother-in-law called the cops when a kid brought a gun to school. Parents sued him and the school district. "Why did you involve the police, the gun wasn't loaded."

Redsfaithful
04-16-2007, 07:18 AM
My brother-in-law called the cops when a kid brought a gun to school. Parents sued him and the school district. "Why did you involve the police, the gun wasn't loaded."

This is just like the calling social services comment. You can call social services on anyone, it doesn't mean social services will do anything about it.

And you can sue anyone for any reason, it doesn't mean you'll win. I seriously doubt the case above went anywhere.

zombie-a-go-go
04-16-2007, 09:05 AM
I don't know if it was true when I was in school but kids are CRAZY these days, CRAZY.

Kids aren't much different these days then they were "in the good old days." The primary difference is the magnification of every community's dirty laundry via the intarweb tubes. 20 years ago this would have happened and you would have never heard about it because it didn't happen in your community.

There were lousy parents when I was growing up, when my parents were growing up, and so on and so forth.

Roy Tucker
04-16-2007, 09:31 AM
My wife does subbing in the local elementary school. I asked her about this. She said they have a whole escalation policy with handling problem children.

She said 99% of the time, the teacher can handle the situation. Step 2 is sending the kid down to the dreaded office which usually puts the fear of God into their heart and that's the end of it. If they don't go, the principal comes to the classroom to deal with it which is deep yogurt time for the child.

She said there are also a couple men teachers that are called in as backups. Not that they physically abuse the kids, it's just a different ballgame when a 6 yr. old is confronted by a 6'4" 220 lb. man with a big voice instead a 4'11" 100 lb. teacher.

And if anything goes to that degree, the school psychologist gets involved and all those mechanisms are engaged. Parents are called in, earnest discussions are held, i.e. intervention time.

She said at this elementary school in the past 6-7 years, they had to call the police in once, but that was because some 4th grader was brandishing a pistol (which turned out to be a pellet gun).

Cops are more routinely called into the middle and high schools, but that's a bit more expected.

GAC
04-16-2007, 09:55 AM
Kids aren't much different these days then they were "in the good old days." The primary difference is the magnification of every community's dirty laundry via the intarweb tubes. 20 years ago this would have happened and you would have never heard about it because it didn't happen in your community

I beg to differ with you on that aspect.... and I bet that a majority of those on this thread who grew up in what you call "the good old days" would also disagree with you. You're relatively a young man. I'd guess mid-late 20's? So from an experiential perspective, you really have no common frame of reference to compare it to. Except the last 20 years. But those of us who are in our late 40's-mid 50's, who grew up in the 50s/60s, will tell you that while it obviously wasn't Ozzie & Harriet or Leave It To Beaver, comparing then to now is the difference between night and day. There wasn't alot of the stuff we see with kids today, going on with kids then.

GAC
04-16-2007, 10:24 AM
I was never struck by parents. Not once.

I have two advanced degrees, a career I love, a beautiful wife, and two beautiful daughters.

Wha happuhn?

And no one said there aren't/weren't exceptions. Or that if EVERYONE isn't out there spanking their kids they aren't very good parents, or that these kids are going to grow up int a life of crime. Just like its not true that people who spank a child are uninformed or abusive parents. My older sister never got spanked either. But then, she was always a goodie two-shoes too. :p:

We can spend all day sighting examples, while also extremes, in both cases.

What stood out to me in this situation, and IMHO, really revealed a lot about this Mother, was when she started screaming about her child's "rights" being violated? What rights would that be Mom? The right to throw a violent temper tantrum, disrupt class, and physically attack others?

I have yet to hear any explanation as to WHY she was having this violent tantrum??

They did right in isolating her. They then should have called the parent(s) and told them that they have a serious situation and one (or both) of you need to come to school. They then need to privately inform any parent. Whatever the "root" problem may be, parents need to be held accountable, and schools should not tolerate such behavior. And parents need to be told this.

But if the parents shirk that responsibility, then what is the school then suppose to do when a child behaves this way, and that behavior is repetitive while at school? Keep sending the kid home? Does the school have the right to then involve outside agencies/insitutions (not necessarily police) in order to help this child/family?

How far are school allowed to go without it being an invasion of privacy?

Chip R
04-16-2007, 11:14 AM
What stood out to me in this situation, and IMHO, really revealed a lot about this Mother, was when she started screaming about her child's "rights" being violated? What rights would that be Mom? The right to throw a violent temper tantrum, disrupt class, and physically attack others?



And I'm fairly sure if your 6 year old daughter was arrested for throwing a tantrum at school you'd be screaming bloody murder.

It's irrelevant why the kid was throwing a tantrum and it's irrelevant what the situation of the kid was. What is relevant is that this school was so ill-equipped to handle a little girl throwing a fit that they decided that the kid had to be arrested. A school full of adults couldn't figure out how to defuse this kid without resorting to corporal punishment? What's next, the death penalty for running in the halls?

There are many, many kids who are from a bad environment. Maybe that's a reason why she threw the tantrum. But why should that make any difference? You're looking into reasons why the kid threw the tantrum. But the point is that the kid threw a tantrum and was arrested. It doesn't matter if the kid is from the meanest ghetto or the richest subdivision, they are going to throw tantrums. But it doesn't mean they need to be arrested and charged with felonies.

MaineRed
04-16-2007, 11:33 AM
And I'm fairly sure if your 6 year old daughter was arrested for throwing a tantrum at school you'd be screaming bloody murder.

It's irrelevant why the kid was throwing a tantrum and it's irrelevant what the situation of the kid was. What is relevant is that this school was so ill-equipped to handle a little girl throwing a fit that they decided that the kid had to be arrested. A school full of adults couldn't figure out how to defuse this kid without resorting to corporal punishment? What's next, the death penalty for running in the halls?




And I'm sure if your kid got injured by some other kid who had repeated issues that you'd be screaming bloody murder that harsher steps should have been taken to deal with this child during previous incidents.

Where do you get the idea that the death penalty is going to be used for culprits caught running the halls based on this? Are you so sure of your stance that you have to resort to as bad as it gets exaggerations?

Perhaps you should criticize the police who could have handled this differently. Schools call the cops a lot more often that you think. Cuffing her and taking her downtown IS excessive. But all I see here is complaints about how incompetent the school and the teachers are. They called public safety officers because they had a public safety issue.

I don't see what the school did wrong.

minus5
04-16-2007, 11:50 AM
And I'm fairly sure if your 6 year old daughter was arrested for throwing a tantrum at school you'd be screaming bloody murder.


I'm dead certain that I would have said to my kid after the fact "Well, I bet you don't do that again, will you?" Then they would have to go to school and apologize.

Puffy
04-16-2007, 12:16 PM
I was never struck by parents. Not once.

I have two advanced degrees, a career I love, a beautiful wife, and two beautiful daughters.

Wha happuhn?

Yeah, and it all made you a Cardinals fan.

:mooner:

zombie-a-go-go
04-16-2007, 02:19 PM
I beg to differ with you on that aspect.... and I bet that a majority of those on this thread who grew up in what you call "the good old days" would also disagree with you. You're relatively a young man. I'd guess mid-late 20's? So from an experiential perspective, you really have no common frame of reference to compare it to. Except the last 20 years. But those of us who are in our late 40's-mid 50's, who grew up in the 50s/60s, will tell you that while it obviously wasn't Ozzie & Harriet or Leave It To Beaver, comparing then to now is the difference between night and day. There wasn't alot of the stuff we see with kids today, going on with kids then.

Your thoughts on this matter, while interesting, are ultimately irrelevant. The testimonial of those who grew up in the 50s/60s can only be anecdotal, as they did not have easy means of access to local news stories from across the world as we do today. Anecdotes =/= fact, and so your opinion here can not in any real way be accepted as an authority.

vaticanplum
04-16-2007, 08:47 PM
What stood out to me in this situation, and IMHO, really revealed a lot about this Mother, was when she started screaming about her child's "rights" being violated? What rights would that be Mom? The right to throw a violent temper tantrum, disrupt class, and physically attack others?

How about her right not to be arrested when she hasn't committed a crime?


I have yet to hear any explanation as to WHY she was having this violent tantrum??

Once again, why does it make a difference? Unless she's throwing a tantrum because she's just killed, maimed or stolen, then the reason for her tantrum doesn't have any bearing on the fact that she was arrested.


They did right in isolating her. They then should have called the parent(s) and told them that they have a serious situation and one (or both) of you need to come to school. They then need to privately inform any parent. Whatever the "root" problem may be, parents need to be held accountable, and schools should not tolerate such behavior. And parents need to be told this.

I agree with all this 100%. Still don't see why this warrants her arrest, or why any of this needs to involve law enforcement.


But if the parents shirk that responsibility, then what is the school then suppose to do when a child behaves this way, and that behavior is repetitive while at school? Keep sending the kid home? Does the school have the right to then involve outside agencies/insitutions (not necessarily police) in order to help this child/family?

That's the school's call, and possibly social services. I'll tell you whose call it isn't: the police's. Everything you suggest there suggests addressing the child's situation, which is the prudent thing to do. The police didn't address the child's situation. They addressed the child.

The police are there to stop people who break laws. No law was being broken here. That's pretty much the end of the story for me...oh, except for the part where the kid was six and involving the police in this served no purpose to her, to her parents, to her school or her community.

Beyond just the absolute absurdity of the situation, GAC, if things in your community are so rosy that the police can really afford to take the time to deal with temper tantrums -- or, conversely, if the temper tantrums in your community are becoming such a public nuisance that they must involve the police to deal with them -- then I don't know whether to be jealous of your community or pity it. Suffice it to say that the police in my neighborhood have slightly more pressing matters to address.

Yachtzee
04-16-2007, 09:13 PM
How about her right not to be arrested when she hasn't committed a crime?



Once again, why does it make a difference? Unless she's throwing a tantrum because she's just killed, maimed or stolen, then the reason for her tantrum doesn't have any bearing on the fact that she was arrested.



I agree with all this 100%. Still don't see why this warrants her arrest, or why any of this needs to involve law enforcement.



That's the school's call, and possibly social services. I'll tell you whose call it isn't: the police's.

The police are there to stop people who break laws. No law was being broken here. That's pretty much the end of the story for me...oh, except for the part where the kid was six and involving the police in this served no purpose to her, to her parents, to her school or her community.

Beyond just the absolute absurdity of the situation, GAC, if things in your community are so rosy that the police can really afford to take the time to deal with temper tantrums -- or, conversely, if the temper tantrums in your community are becoming such a public nuisance that they must involve the police to deal with them -- then I don't know whether to be jealous of your community or pity it. Suffice it to say that the police in my neighborhood have slightly more pressing matters to address.

Actually, it depends on how the "Battery of a School Employee" statute is written as to whether a crime has been committed. Battery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_%28crime%29) usually occurs when someone engages in unwanted physical contact of another person. Criminal battery usually requires some kind of intent to do harm. If she struck or kicked a teacher, that may well be a crime, even if she is only six years old. The question is really whether the a six year old can have the required mental state to commit a felony-level battery.

I suspect the law was enacted and made a felony-level offense to deal with the high school situation where many students are large enough to cause serious injury. However, unless there is some age requirement, the police officer's hands may well be tied. Even if they don't want to charge the kid, they may have to, especially if the teacher or the school is adamant about pressing charges.

Personally, I think that once they put the girl in the school office, they should have just kept her there and kept an eye on her while trying to contact her parents without getting the police involved. The school made the choice to involve the police. It's not like the police are staking out the local elementary schools looking for vicious six-year-olds.

Once the police get the call, it is not always in their discretion whether to charge or not to charge. Even if they do have discretion, they may err on the side of safety. Put yourself in the shoes of the officer. You're called to the scene where a school employee claims to have been battered by a student. The student is throwing what you see to be just a temper tantrum, but the school officials who deal with her on a daily basis say she's a danger to herself and others. You've heard the stories of kids as young as kindergartners using weapons on teachers and playmates. In that situation, do you brush off the school employees, or do you err on the side of safety, charge the kid, take her in to the station until her parents can pick her up, and then hand things over to the prosecutor to determine whether to go forward or drop the charges?

oneupper
04-16-2007, 09:16 PM
Here's a blog entry with a little more info:

http://welcome-to-pottersville.blogspot.com/2007/04/bob-herbert-6-year-olds-under-arrest.html

I like the quote by the officer: "Do You think this is first 6-Year-Old we've arrested?"

Unfortunately a society where a six year old blows a classmate's brains out with a 9 mm, is going to err on the side of caution.

Kid hit a teacher. Teacher can't hit back. I'm guessing these people just followed procedure.

It may seem extreme, but welcome to America in the 21st century.

GAC
04-16-2007, 10:24 PM
And I'm fairly sure if your 6 year old daughter was arrested for throwing a tantrum at school you'd be screaming bloody murder.

I'm not saying I wouldn't be upset Chip. I'm just saying I'm getting tired of people, in instances like this, screaming about rights being violated. What rights were violated? Was it wrong for the school to call the police? We all agree it was. Give the school hell for a rash act. But don't scream about rights being violated.

But I'd also be dealing with my child AT HOME too for such a dreadful, and embarassing, peformance at school. Believe me. I wonder if these parents did?


It's irrelevant why the kid was throwing a tantrum and it's irrelevant what the situation of the kid was.

My asking the question was not in reference to, or justification for, calling police. Simply - why was the little girl throwing the temper tantrum in the first place? Yes, I think it is a relevant question that the school has a right to ask. It happened AT SCHOOL. Their domain.


There are many, many kids who are from a bad environment. Maybe that's a reason why she threw the tantrum. But why should that make any difference? You're looking into reasons why the kid threw the tantrum. But the point is that the kid threw a tantrum and was arrested. It doesn't matter if the kid is from the meanest ghetto or the richest subdivision, they are going to throw tantrums. But it doesn't mean they need to be arrested and charged with felonies.

Again - you're addressing my question from the standpoint that I agreed with the school calling the police and being arrested. I have already stated previously that it was a dumb move by the school.

I am simply trying to move past that, go somewhat deeper, and say the school should have called the parents in, had a serious private talk with them as to why this child had the violent tantrum, offered any assistance they could to help (without stepping over boundaries obviously); but still let the parents know that this type of behavior will not be tolerated.

If they don't make efforts to address it, even make offers to help, then what is to stop this little girl from continuing such behavior in the future?

GAC
04-17-2007, 01:27 PM
Your thoughts on this matter, while interesting, are ultimately irrelevant. The testimonial of those who grew up in the 50s/60s can only be anecdotal, as they did not have easy means of access to local news stories from across the world as we do today. Anecdotes =/= fact, and so your opinion here can not in any real way be accepted as an authority.

Hardly irrelevant because we didn't have internet then. We didn't live in caves, and there was plenty of access to world news on a daily basis via the TV, newspapers, radio, and other forms of mass media.

Don't take just my word on it. Ask anyone from my age group and they'll tell you that experientially (being there/growing up). And I am not saying that it didn't exist.... just not as prolific, widespread, and tolerated/condoned as we are seeing it today.

GAC
04-17-2007, 02:00 PM
How about her right not to be arrested when she hasn't committed a crime?.....The police are there to stop people who break laws. No law was being broken here.

It's not the police's fault they were called. They have a responsibility to answer/respond - whether its a domestic disturbance at home, a public disturbance, or even a disturbance at an elementary school involving a student.

And technically speaking, there were probably some misdemeanor laws violated. How about creating a public disturbance, assault (on the teachers and administrators), and possibly a few other very minor charges. Again - I didn't agree with, nor advocate, this little girl being arrested. Read my previous posts. But shouldn't she, or even her parents, be somehow held accountable for her actions?

Everyone is all upset at the police and these school administrators, while completely overlooking the reason why they were called to begin with... a child throwing a very violent tantrum in school in which she attacked teachers.

What if this had been a somewhat older child? What is the protocol then?



Once again, why does it make a difference? Unless she's throwing a tantrum because she's just killed, maimed or stolen, then the reason for her tantrum doesn't have any bearing on the fact that she was arrested.

No, the reason for the tanturm doesn't have any bearing on why she was arrested, and I never said it did or should. It was just a "side" question on my part, wondering if the teachers, in trying to calm her down, tried to find that out. Usually, when a child is throwing such a violent temper tantrum, doesn't an adult try to find out why, and if possible rectify it?



Beyond just the absolute absurdity of the situation, GAC, if things in your community are so rosy that the police can really afford to take the time to deal with temper tantrums -- or, conversely, if the temper tantrums in your community are becoming such a public nuisance that they must involve the police to deal with them -- then I don't know whether to be jealous of your community or pity it. Suffice it to say that the police in my neighborhood have slightly more pressing matters to address.

If this had happened in a home, or maybe in a department store or other public place - where a child went amok and people were trying to control them, and having a hard time doing so - would a store manager, or someone in that home, be stupid for calling the police?

The police don't always respond to make an arrest; but to take control of a situation and bring order/calm. That is part of their job too. ;)

I don't hear the police in this situation being upset, or chastising the school, for being called. Or saying it was a waste of their time. And I doubt very much that any charges at all will be brought on this little girl.

But to be honest with you..... if one of my kids did something like that in school, the police would be the least of their problems - and they know it. :lol:

Chip R
04-17-2007, 03:02 PM
I'm not saying I wouldn't be upset Chip. I'm just saying I'm getting tired of people, in instances like this, screaming about rights being violated. What rights were violated? Was it wrong for the school to call the police? We all agree it was. Give the school hell for a rash act. But don't scream about rights being violated.


I don't know if any rights were violated. If the parents believe they were, that's their business, not ours. Back when I was in high school, my older sister went to a party in a private house with other kids in her class where alcohol was served with the knowledge and presence of the parents who owned that house. The cops found out and broke the party up and the school punished my sister and her classmates for it. My parents - and other parents - raised holy hell with the school. Contacted lawyers, even a reporter from the Des Moines Register was in our house once - and we lived a good hour away from Des Moines in a town of about 1,000. My point is that it doesn't matter if the parents think that their kids' rights were violated. They are defending their kids just like you or any other parent would.




But I'd also be dealing with my child AT HOME too for such a dreadful, and embarassing, peformance at school. Believe me. I wonder if these parents did?



I'm not sure if my parents punished my sister but they would have been within their rights to do so as would any parent for what happened. The kid threw a fit. She was wrong to do so and the school handled it poorly. Even if one were to concede that the cops should have been called, the kid didn't need to have been booked for 2 felonies. Perhaps keeping her at the station till her folks arrived would have been sufficient to throw a scare into her so she wouldn't do it again. I wonder if they put her in a cell with other prisoners? That certainly would have been a good influence on her.



My asking the question was not in reference to, or justification for, calling police. Simply - why was the little girl throwing the temper tantrum in the first place? Yes, I think it is a relevant question that the school has a right to ask. It happened AT SCHOOL. Their domain.

Why does it matter why the kid threw a fit? Maybe she didn't get a toy she wanted at recess. Maybe she's a spoiled brat. Maybe someone called her a name. It doesn't matter why she threw the fit. That is something for her parents to handle. Good kids - as well as bad kids - throw fits. I have 2 nephews and a niece and I have seen them all throw fits before. Doesn't mean their parents are bad parents or they are bad kids. They threw fits because they were kids and were mad at something or someone. To my knowledge, no one has had them arrested for doing so.



Again - you're addressing my question from the standpoint that I agreed with the school calling the police and being arrested. I have already stated previously that it was a dumb move by the school.


You also said, "What else could they do?" You may not have agreed with it but you certainly condoned it.



I am simply trying to move past that, go somewhat deeper, and say the school should have called the parents in, had a serious private talk with them as to why this child had the violent tantrum, offered any assistance they could to help (without stepping over boundaries obviously); but still let the parents know that this type of behavior will not be tolerated.


Hopefully they will do this but the behavior of the child is not the issue here. It is what the school did when the child misbehaved. As a parent, I'm sure you have different levels of discipline for your kids when they misbehave just like society has. If I get nailed for speeding, I know I'm not going to be put to death. If I rob a bank, I'm probably going to do some time but I'm not going to be put to death. If I kill someone, there's a good chance I'll be put to death. I'd like to know what this school considers a more heinous crime than throwing a fit and what their punishment is for it.


If they don't make efforts to address it, even make offers to help, then what is to stop this little girl from continuing such behavior in the future?


I agree, but since this school doesn't seem to care if a little girl is arrested for just throwing a fit, I wouldn't think they care about the kid's behavior a whole lot. But to answer your question, I would hope her parents would address the kid's behavior and act accordingly. Maybe they will ground her or give her a spanking. I just hope they don't send her to jail.

GAC
04-17-2007, 08:54 PM
They should have tasered the little brat, called the parents, and when they showed up.... "We don't know why she is twitching like that. That's why we called. Is she having a seizure?" :lol:

zombielady
04-18-2007, 09:22 AM
people only THINK they can't discipline their children... of course when do they have time? The problem is people are paying strangers to raise their kids so they can have a "Career"... and those strangers aren't allowed to discipline them... the parents are, they just don't because they aren't around **Puts away soap box**

I do have to say that if this becomes the norm, then my 3 y/o is gonna be a fugitive from the law before 1st grade....

zombielady
04-18-2007, 09:36 AM
This is the point. There are people there who could EASILY "control" that kid. But they'd be the ones in jail.

Knowing what i know about schools, this is probably what happened. This kid has been a problem long before this, even though she is only six. The parents have been spoken too or a previous incident took place where the parent did not like how the kid was handled. The parent, who probably is on well fare and spends all the money on scratch tickets and vodka probably had a profanity laced tirade where he or she told the principal how the kid was smarter than all of the teachers and that it was the teachers who were the problem, etc, etc.

Wow... that's a harsh generalization! Poor kids are the only ones who act like that?? You need to seriously get out more.... We live in the ghetto... and I smile and wave to the poor ghetto kids... it's the rich latin school kids who skip school and throw rocks at our windows and slash our tires... "if they misbehave, their parent must be crackheads on welfare..." My three year old is a MONSTER and we are not on welfare... and I don't think I've ever even seen crack!


I don't think a classroom full of six year olds is where any of you want to be right now. And at the end of the day you'd be pulling your hair out over the moronic parents, not the raged up kids.

As a former teacher... I agree... I quit teaching, not because of even the worst behaved kids... but the parents...
Even if the school jumped the gun bringing in the police... the police went WAY too far in handcuffing and charging her with a felony.

MaineRed
04-18-2007, 10:12 AM
My wife is a teacher and I can't do anything about the fact that almost all the kids who act like they are on crack are the kids who have parents who are lowlifes. RARELY does a kid from a good family act in a manner that is so bad it comes up at the dinner table. The kids who punch teachers, give death threats and are flat out crazy pretty much come from parents who are deadbeats.

I live in Maine, I'm not talking about no freaking ghetto. We don't have a ghetto anywhere in this state. I'm talking about white trash.

zombielady
04-18-2007, 11:46 AM
My wife is a teacher and I can't do anything about the fact that almost all the kids who act like they are on crack are the kids who have parents who are lowlifes. RARELY does a kid from a good family act in a manner that is so bad it comes up at the dinner table.


Wow... that's... I mean.. wow... :bang: is that really how most people feel? Wow.

I mean... wow... :(

westofyou
04-18-2007, 11:48 AM
Classism alive and well in Maine.

zombielady
04-18-2007, 11:50 AM
Classism alive and well in Maine.

Thank you... I couldn't find a "mod friendly" way to say that... ;)

TeamCasey
04-18-2007, 12:24 PM
people only THINK they can't discipline their children... of course when do they have time? The problem is people are paying strangers to raise their kids so they can have a "Career"... and those strangers aren't allowed to discipline them... the parents are, they just don't because they aren't around **Puts away soap box**


Are you slighting working mothers? :eek:

Please expand what your saying here before I make a wrong assumption and throw a complete temper tantrum.

TeamCasey
04-18-2007, 12:45 PM
If I do throw a tantrum .... don't call the cops. ;)

Doro
04-18-2007, 12:48 PM
I'm gunna use this with my kids at school......."Hey....stop that.....do you want a felony????"

zombielady
04-18-2007, 01:38 PM
Are you slighting working mothers? :eek:

Please expand what your saying here before I make a wrong assumption and throw a complete temper tantrum.

No! Not the moms. Well, not all of them. A lot of us HAVE to work... I mean we have no choice. And the issue of career vs home should be my choice... I believe I should be at home, and I should have that right... right now I am at home, until my youngest starts school, but we are struggling to do that. And up until the Husband got a promotion, I didn't have that choice... I had to work, so we could make it...

Maybe I shouldn'a open this can of worms... :( That's just my opinion...But I, also, think that's only a fraction of the problem... I mean you have people who believe you will destroy a child's self esteem if you don't give in to every whim... and the fathers who don't care enough to be around... divorce is too easy... the moral fiber is deteriorating... the problem has many sources...

I guess the REAL problem is that people are more concerned with money than with each other...

919191
04-18-2007, 02:52 PM
I'm talking about white trash.

As someone whose family tree has roots partially planted in "white trash", I can tell you this term isn't a whole lot different than other racial and ethnic slurs.

zombielady
04-18-2007, 02:53 PM
As someone whose family tree has roots partially planted in "white trash", I can tell you this term isn't a whole lot different than other racial and ethnic slurs.

:thumbup:

Ltlabner
04-18-2007, 05:14 PM
I mean you have people who believe you will destroy a child's self esteem if you don't give in to every whim...

Anymore the mention of the world "self esteem" is enough to make me want to :barf:

Self esteem is not, nor should be the holy grail of raising children. And while you want your kids to have a good self image, it certinally doesn't come from carering to their every whim or bowing before the alter of self esteme.

Good self esteme is an outcome, or happy by-product. Not the goal.

WMR
04-18-2007, 06:09 PM
Why haven't we created a kiddie-sized tazer gun yet?

Problem solved!

MaineRed
04-18-2007, 06:11 PM
Classism alive and well in Maine.

Sorry but it is fact, at least here. The majority of the kids who are nut jobs have parental issues and in most of those cases, serious parental issues. Nobody is putting people in classes, it is simply an obvious observation through experience. It isn't how I feel. It is what I have seen and heard. When I was in school is was much the same. The kids who had serious issues had serious issues at home. In almost every case.

I'm not sure what makes it classism? I'm not making blanket statements. If you feel things are different where you are, I'd love to hear about it.


As someone whose family tree has roots partially planted in "white trash", I can tell you this term isn't a whole lot different than other racial and ethnic slurs.

Oh well. I'm as white as it gets and this is the first I've heard of this. Just what is the politically correct term for these lowlifes?

paintmered
04-18-2007, 06:14 PM
Alright, I this thread has veered off-topic and become racially charged.

Time to take it elsewhere.