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View Full Version : Bullpen - Give Credit or Too Early?



RedFanAlways1966
04-13-2007, 11:18 PM
10 games is 1/16 of the season. Long way to go. The REDS bullpen has changed a lot from last year's Opening day crew. Coffey and Weathers remain. Am I missing anyone? Comparing the first 10 games of each season... unreal. Luck? Better schedule? Good managing (oh-oh!)? Good GM'ing (lots of new faces)? The Dick Pole effect?

Lots of ball to be played. But you have to notice the bullpen (and RZ has). They are a big part of the reason for the 6-4 record as this is written. They have taken two losses (both in AZ): (1) Saarloos gives up an 8th inning solo HR to Hudson, (2) Weathers gives a walkoff 2-out double in the 11th. But "not so good" offense didn't put the REDS in a position to win those games. Anyone in MLB have a bullpen with better numbers then we see below? If they do, then their bullpen is amazing.

10 Games - 2006
* 27 IP, 34H, 19ER, 24K, 14BB.
>> 6.33 ERA, 1.78 WHIP.
>> 5 saves, 1 blown save.

10 Games - 2007 :)
* 29 IP, 20H, 5ER, 26K, 9BB.
>> 1.55 ERA, 1.00 WHIP.
>> 4 saves, 0 blown save.

Falls City Beer
04-13-2007, 11:29 PM
10 games is 1/16 of the season. Long way to go. The REDS bullpen has changed a lot from last year's Opening day crew. Coffey and Weathers remain. Am I missing anyone? Comparing the first 10 games of each season... unreal. Luck? Better schedule? Good managing (oh-oh!)? Good GM'ing (lots of new faces)? The Dick Pole effect?

Lots of ball to be played. But you have to notice the bullpen (and RZ has). They are a big part of the reason for the 6-4 record as this is written. They have taken two losses (both in AZ): (1) Saarloos gives up an 8th inning solo HR to Hudson, (2) Weathers gives a walkoff 2-out double in the 11th. But "not so good" offense didn't put the REDS in a position to win those games. Anyone in MLB have a bullpen with better numbers then we see below? If they do, then their bullpen is amazing.

10 Games - 2006
* 27 IP, 34H, 19ER, 24K, 14BB.
>> 6.33 ERA, 1.78 WHIP.
>> 5 saves, 1 blown save.

10 Games - 2007 :)
* 29 IP, 20H, 5ER, 26K, 9BB.
>> 1.55 ERA, 1.00 WHIP.
>> 4 saves, 0 blown save.

Cold weather. Weak opponents.

Technically, the only REAL new faces are Saarloos, Coutlangus, and Santos.

It's too early, but these guys truly don't project as a plus bullpen. Bailey might change that equation.

redsupport
04-13-2007, 11:55 PM
Santos is the ne plus ultra the sine que non of exemplary bullpen theatrics. He is the rara avis of the flock

membengal
04-14-2007, 04:34 AM
FCB, you are consistently grumpy on this point, I will give you that. Stanton is a new face too. And he, along with Cout and Saarloos, have changed the whole complexion of how I feel about the team's ability to get outs late in the game. Add in a real maturation from Coffey, and I think the bullpen is legitimately heads and shoulders above where it was last year. I like that they have enough lefties down there now that Narron is only using Cormier to get one lefty out at a time, so far, for instance.

I think there is a lot more to be excited about in the pen than I could have imagined in the middle of March. But WK happily proved me wrong by cutting loose Hermansen and not wasting innings on him while giving a guy like Cout a shot to do something up with the big club. It's better than it was.

Add in Belisle pitching like he means to do something significant with his career, and the Reds' pitching has a chance to be markedly better than I would have expected...

coachw513
04-14-2007, 05:40 AM
10 games is 1/16 of the season. Long way to go. The REDS bullpen has changed a lot from last year's Opening day crew. Coffey and Weathers remain. Am I missing anyone? Comparing the first 10 games of each season... unreal. Luck? Better schedule? Good managing (oh-oh!)? Good GM'ing (lots of new faces)? The Dick Pole effect?

Lots of ball to be played. But you have to notice the bullpen (and RZ has). They are a big part of the reason for the 6-4 record as this is written. They have taken two losses (both in AZ): (1) Saarloos gives up an 8th inning solo HR to Hudson, (2) Weathers gives a walkoff 2-out double in the 11th. But "not so good" offense didn't put the REDS in a position to win those games. Anyone in MLB have a bullpen with better numbers then we see below? If they do, then their bullpen is amazing.

10 Games - 2006
* 27 IP, 34H, 19ER, 24K, 14BB.
>> 6.33 ERA, 1.78 WHIP.
>> 5 saves, 1 blown save.

10 Games - 2007 :)
* 29 IP, 20H, 5ER, 26K, 9BB.
>> 1.55 ERA, 1.00 WHIP.
>> 4 saves, 0 blown save.

Well of course the San Diego bullpen has had that incredible stretch of innings without any runs given up at all...but I agree it's a very positive beginning...

If Lohse/Belisle hold up, the bullpen will be solid...those 2 are the key, for better or for worse...

Always Red
04-14-2007, 06:29 AM
Give them credit for what they've done thus far, but it's too early yet to make any proclamations.

So far, so good!

Falls City Beer
04-14-2007, 09:57 AM
FCB, you are consistently grumpy on this point, I will give you that. Stanton is a new face too. And he, along with Cout and Saarloos, have changed the whole complexion of how I feel about the team's ability to get outs late in the game. Add in a real maturation from Coffey, and I think the bullpen is legitimately heads and shoulders above where it was last year. I like that they have enough lefties down there now that Narron is only using Cormier to get one lefty out at a time, so far, for instance.

I think there is a lot more to be excited about in the pen than I could have imagined in the middle of March. But WK happily proved me wrong by cutting loose Hermansen and not wasting innings on him while giving a guy like Cout a shot to do something up with the big club. It's better than it was.

Add in Belisle pitching like he means to do something significant with his career, and the Reds' pitching has a chance to be markedly better than I would have expected...

As with a lot of so-so bullpens, the secret is not to overexpose them. And so far, they've not logged an inordinate number of innings. And while I'm delighted that Belisle has really stepped it up in the early going, I'm just not sure I can trust the guy to stay healthy; and he's the linchpin right now--take him out of the equation and you have the unbroken string of Lohse, AAA callup, and Milton. That's a veritable pitching desert; which means that the bullpen will be leaned on with much greater frequency. I just don't see many Scott Sullivans, early-version Danny Graveses, and Scott Williamsons around to truly slam the door.

jmac
04-14-2007, 11:19 AM
I just don't see many Scott Sullivans, early-version Danny Graveses, and Scott Williamsons around to truly slam the door.

If you cant have the "Nasty Boys"...that right there would be okay with me.
Course key word was "early-version":D
BTW whatever happened to Sully ?
Is he still with royals or retire ?

WVRedsFan
04-14-2007, 11:43 AM
Give them credit for what they've done thus far, but it's too early yet to make any proclamations.

So far, so good!

Agreed, but they've been shaky at times. The bullpen seems pretty hittable and once the weather settles down and hitters are in their groove, this could all change. Like AR said, so far, so good.

I'm more worried about our starting pitching. Harang is continuing what he was doing in spring training--giving up lots of hits and runs. Outside of his opening day masterpiece (where Narron pitched him too long) he's had nothing and looked stiff and tentative yesterday. I think he's injured in some way. He sure isn't the Aaron Harang we're used to. Same with Lohse. Something's amiss with him too. I don't like it.

Razor Shines
04-14-2007, 11:47 AM
Agreed, but they've been shaky at times. The bullpen seems pretty hittable and once the weather settles down and hitters are in their groove, this could all change. Like AR said, so far, so good.

I'm more worried about our starting pitching. Harang is continuing what he was doing in spring training--giving up lots of hits and runs. Outside of his opening day masterpiece (where Narron pitched him too long) he's had nothing and looked stiff and tentative yesterday. I think he's injured in some way. He sure isn't the Aaron Harang we're used to. Same with Lohse. Something's amiss with him too. I don't like it.

Well Harang said he's been sick and hasn't slept the last couple of days, that could have been why he wasn't as technically sound as he should have been on his breaking balls. But his velocity was there and his fastball seemed to have the same movement, he was just hanging his curve ball. I hope that's all it was.

redsgabp
04-14-2007, 11:51 AM
the pen has looked good but i think it will only get better.

*the trade* that nobody will let down
gary majewski and bill bray.

look at bray as another guy like coffey.

KronoRed
04-14-2007, 11:53 AM
I don't think we should pay any attention to pitching stats until May

redsgabp
04-14-2007, 11:59 AM
I don't think we should pay any attention to pitching stats until May

we have about 1/16 of the season over now.

i think it's early to be talking about anybodys stats.

but with maj and bray back SOON I HOPE, i think we will be ok in the pen.
(the question will be who to send down or let go???)

we will see where the reds are going in a true direction in another 15 games or so as far as the stats go.

WVRedsFan
04-14-2007, 12:00 PM
I don't think we should pay any attention to pitching stats until May

Good point and well taken. Pitchers always have an upper hand in April.

WVRedsFan
04-14-2007, 12:04 PM
we have about 1/16 of the season over now.

i think it's early to be talking about anybodys stats.

but with maj and bray back SOON I HOPE, i think we will be ok in the pen.
(the question will be who to send down or let go???)

we will see where the reds are going in a true direction in another 15 games or so as far as the stats go.

If Magic and Bray ever contribute much to this team, I'll be surprised. With the performance by some of the guys we have here now and Magic's career stats, how do you subsitute him for a Cont? With Bray being so young and his so-so record last year, who do you let go for him?

redsgabp
04-14-2007, 12:10 PM
If Magic and Bray ever contribute much to this team, I'll be surprised. With the performance by some of the guys we have here now and Magic's career stats, how do you subsitute him for a Cont? With Bray being so young and his so-so record last year, who do you let go for him?

for bray pick one of these 2
R. Cormier
M. Stanton

or better yet for bray
C. Moeller

Majewski is the question mark...

i think he can help us if HEALTHY.

i also wouldn't mind the reds to cut milton and bring up Phil Dumatrait

Phil Dumatrait
2w 0L 0.71ERA

like i said it's early for stats but miltons are always going to be HIGH!

T7-niner
04-14-2007, 12:23 PM
for bray pick one of these 2
R. Cormier
M. Stanton

or better yet for bray
C. Moeller

As bad as I hate Moeller on the team, you have to make a move on the pitching side to bring someone up or off the DL. (I'd love for someone to take Frenchie off our hands)

IMO, you send Bray to Louisville until he proves he's healthy.

Highlifeman21
04-14-2007, 12:43 PM
Two Words: Too early.

T7-niner
04-14-2007, 12:47 PM
Two Words: Too early.

Yeah I guess I missed the point, it is way too early. Let the weather warm up and see how they do against better competition.

Dunner44
04-14-2007, 12:51 PM
As bad as I hate Moeller on the team, you have to make a move on the pitching side to bring someone up or off the DL. (I'd love for someone to take Frenchie off our hands)

IMO, you send Bray to Louisville until he proves he's healthy.

Yeah, no way Moeller goes down for a pitcher. The Reds already have a short bench as it is. Keeping 12 pitchers is fine, but 13 is rediculous.

Frenchy needs to go for younger arms. I don't know about Stanton yet. He hasn't showed me anything bad yet.

James B.
04-14-2007, 12:55 PM
I agree it is too early, but I have a feeling that it the bullpen had blown 3 or saves and had a high ERA that some of the same people saying it is too early would be complaining.

I like this bullpen. They have a good mixture of young and old players. They also have a good mixture of right and left handed pitching. I still wish we had a dominant closer but most teams are lacking this.

VR
04-14-2007, 01:28 PM
Two Words: Too early.

Two words: Tom Hume.

The guy is back in his element, working with these guys on a daily basis. The guy is a quiet, unassuming genius as the bullpen coach, and the pen sufferred for it last year. I expect to continue to see guys pitch above their head thanks to Tom's leadership.

Highlifeman21
04-14-2007, 03:13 PM
Two words: Tom Hume.

The guy is back in his element, working with these guys on a daily basis. The guy is a quiet, unassuming genius as the bullpen coach, and the pen sufferred for it last year. I expect to continue to see guys pitch above their head thanks to Tom's leadership.

That's fine and all, but we've played 10 games....

6.2% of the games....

Call me crazy, but that sounds like small sample size to me.

VR
04-14-2007, 03:39 PM
That's fine and all, but we've played 10 games....

6.2% of the games....

Call me crazy, but that sounds like small sample size to me.

2006 was a pretty good sample size

PuffyPig
04-15-2007, 08:50 PM
If Magic and Bray ever contribute much to this team, I'll be surprised.


Be prepared to be surprised.

Bray is a great prospect. He may be our closer next year.

Majewski should contribute this year as soon as he's healthy.

George Anderson
04-15-2007, 10:14 PM
Be prepared to be surprised.

Bray is a great prospect. He may be our closer next year.

Majewski should contribute this year as soon as he's healthy.

I agree, Bray is still very young and has very good stuff. Patience is the key with him.

Will M
04-15-2007, 10:21 PM
Give Credit:

The bullpen is obviously much better than the 2006 version.

I said in the offseason that we don't have a closer but we do have depth in decent relievers. Last year was Ugly.

Bray is a good pitcher and Majik was good when healthy.
Wow - think about this: we have depth and options both in the rotation and the bullpen.

Caveman Techie
04-16-2007, 08:39 AM
Why is it too early? Do the stats from these games not count? If the bullpen would have gone out and gotten rocked I know of at least a couple of posters who would be spouting off already about how smart they are for having predicted doom and gloom.

Yes it's early still. Yes batters may adjust. Yes it's been cold (which is why I think Harang has been bad, he just doesn't perform well in cold). But all of those things could be said for the other teams also and as of yet the Reds pitching staff has outperformed almost all of them. So yes I am encouraged.

dfs
04-16-2007, 10:21 AM
...You have to give the guys credit for what they've actually done. Keep that in mind.

That aside Chris Hammond went through a period where he was unhittable last season. Narron kept getting him up every day, Hammond burned out and earned his release.

At the end of May last year Rick White had a 4.38 era. The more these guys have to get up and down to warm up (and they are up and down all the time) the sooner this pen will implode.

As to Bray and Majewski, they both have options, the reds CAN keep them down in Louisville as long as they like. If there are no injuries or deals or if nobody earns a release, those guys (in particular Bray) wouldn't be killed by spending a season with the bats.