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View Full Version : Mass Shooting at Va Tech. 33 Dead, 15 Injured [reportedly]



Joseph
04-16-2007, 12:39 PM
Just now coming in, but 22 are believed dead in a shooting at Viginia Tech.

Terrible story.

Joseph
04-16-2007, 12:40 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18134671/?GT1=9246

BLACKSBURG, Va. - At least 22 people were killed Monday in a shooting rampage on the Virginia Tech campus, police said. They said the gunman was among the dead.

In addition to those killed, officials said at least 28 people were wounded.

Virginia Tech Police Chief Wendell Flinchum said the gunman was dead, but that he didn't know how he died.

"Today the university was struck with a tragedy that we consider of monumental proportions," said university President Charles Steger.

The university reported shootings at opposite sides of the 2,600-acre campus, beginning at about 7:15 a.m. local time at West Ambler Johnston, a co-ed residence hall that houses 895 people, and continuing about two hours later at Norris Hall, an engineering building.

Joseph
04-16-2007, 12:45 PM
Yahoo says 21 dead.

The spree supposedly covered multiple buildings on the campus from class rooms to dorm rooms.

CrackerJack
04-16-2007, 12:54 PM
Sick society we live in, and way too many guns.

MaineRed
04-16-2007, 12:54 PM
Trust me, not making light of this in ANY way, but I had been wondering what it would take to get people on the news to move away from the Imus story.

Joseph
04-16-2007, 12:56 PM
Sick society we live in, and way too many guns.

You ain't lying. I'm not saying I condone it, but if someone was mad enough to shoot a person they were angry with...at least there are answers in that action. What could possibly motivate someone to basically just start shooting upwards of 50 people?

The only thing I shot off in college was my mouth when I drank. I don't get this at all.

RedFanAlways1966
04-16-2007, 01:20 PM
Sick society we live in, and way too many guns.

Hand guns are made for killin
Aint no good for nothin else
And if you like your whiskey
You might even shoot yourself
So why dont we dump em people
To the bottom of the sea
Before some fool come around here
Wanna shoot either you or me

Sad, sad day. :(

Sean_CaseyRules
04-16-2007, 01:25 PM
Just saw this on the news...Extremely sad, especially since I was thinking about this as a college...

guttle11
04-16-2007, 01:33 PM
People are like canned sardines in classrooms like that. I can't imagine the terror those people were going through. There was nowhere for them to go.

Just awful.

redsfan30
04-16-2007, 01:44 PM
Horrible, horrible, horrible.

God help all those families.

redsfan30
04-16-2007, 01:47 PM
Fox News is reporting now at least 32 people dead.

michst
04-16-2007, 01:51 PM
Crazy, scared the heck out of me when I heard this. My nephew goes to VATech. Lived in the dorm that got hit, two floors up. He said they were all just locked in their rooms on the internet trying to find out what was happenned.

shredda2000
04-16-2007, 02:06 PM
Terrible news from my Alma Mater...my thoughts and prayers are with all the families of the victims.

CrackerJack
04-16-2007, 02:13 PM
Details still very sketchy - up to 32 dead now? (possible considering already 20 were confirmed.

Largest mass/campus killing in US history already. Some of the cell phone videos are just insane - it was like a guerilla war on their campus, like something out of Iraq.

Just a highly disturbing story. This apparently happened over a couple of hours time.

halcyon
04-16-2007, 02:17 PM
Horrifying. My best friend is a Chemical Engineering major there. Someone called me and told me that at least 20 something people were slaughtered in an engineering building on campus, I freaked out. Luckily, he stayed home an extra day and wasn't on campus today. He's reasonably numb however. He hangs out in a building 75 feet away from Norris (where the masacre occured). Awful.

rotnoid
04-16-2007, 02:23 PM
it was like a guerilla war on their campus,

That sounds like a pretty good description. The guerilla doesn't have to win to be successful. He only has to not lose.

LoganBuck
04-16-2007, 02:25 PM
Sick, just sick.

Joseph
04-16-2007, 02:27 PM
Some stations I've heard claim it was a guy looking for his girlfriend. Went to the dorm room first, then to the class room. Don't know who he was, nor who the girlfriend was [as in I haven't seen any names yet] nor do I know if this is a true description of events or merely speculation on the part of the radio stations.

I was in college during Columbine, and attended a class with a pair of girls who were witnesses to the shooting in Paducah Kentucky around that same time period and I saw how paralyzed these girls became during class when news of another school shooting broke out. I still think of those girls every time I read of a school or office shooting, and frankly it affects me and I wasn't even there. It's something the students at Va Tech will be affected by most likely for the rest of their lives.

rotnoid
04-16-2007, 02:31 PM
That's absolutely true. I was in a classroom across the hall from a hostage situation while in high school. Fortunately in our case, no shots were fired, but I can still remember the fear we felt even without having heard gun fire. It's not something you can easily let go of.

WVSteveVT
04-16-2007, 02:53 PM
As an alum of VT, this is one of the saddest days of my life.

TeamDunn
04-16-2007, 03:05 PM
One of the girls at work is just beside herself. Her niece is a student there and an engineering major. No one has heard from her yet today.

I am hoping it is just the chaos and phone lines being jammed. :(

Just horrible.

Joseph
04-16-2007, 03:13 PM
I'll be hoping they do hear from her soon Team Dunn.

Caseyfan21
04-16-2007, 03:17 PM
Man, this is terrible. I have a friend from high school that is a grad student in engineering there. I also am friends with 3 other VT engineering students from work last summer. Really a terrible situation and I am just praying the four people I know made it out ok.

Matt700wlw
04-16-2007, 03:43 PM
This is awful.


The death toll keeps rising, too. :(

harangatang
04-16-2007, 03:47 PM
I just hope this doesn't spur more campus shootings in the future. It's just unbelieveable.

DTCromer
04-16-2007, 05:01 PM
One of the girls at work is just beside herself. Her niece is a student there and an engineering major. No one has heard from her yet today.

I am hoping it is just the chaos and phone lines being jammed. :(

Just horrible.


Any word?

TeamDunn
04-16-2007, 05:06 PM
:( Nothing yet. She left work early to be with her family and is supposed to call me as soon as she hears anything.

If anyone happens to hear anything about Sarah Groh please let me know.

Several students were calling various media outlets and we were listening to them for awhile and some of the articles online have quotes from students. We just keep hoping something will turn up. I just can't believe she would not have contacted her parents ASAP.

TeamCasey
04-16-2007, 05:06 PM
32 dead now, according to ABC.

durl
04-16-2007, 05:23 PM
My prayers are out for the families and everyone affected. Such a sad story.

I can't help but wonder what made a guy fly off like that. No concern for human life. It's just sad that someone could be that far gone.

CrackerJack
04-16-2007, 05:49 PM
A "lone Asian male" is being described as the shooter, or at least one of them.

Reds Fanatic
04-16-2007, 05:51 PM
According to AP the count is up to 33 now.

oneupper
04-16-2007, 05:52 PM
My prayers are out for the families and everyone affected. Such a sad story.

I can't help but wonder what made a guy fly off like that. No concern for human life. It's just sad that someone could be that far gone.

With the cruel social stuff that goes on in HS, you can maybe relate to the pysche of the Columbine shooters (who reportedly were bullied relentlessly)...but this is College.

It doesn't add up.

TeamDunn
04-16-2007, 06:12 PM
She is fine! She was finally able to get in touch with her parents. She had been in the cafeteria and it was locked down. I guess she either did not have her cell phone or it was not working. They heard from her a couple hours ago and then had to start calling everyone to let them know.

My friend is relieved obviously, but is so upset and sad for the rest of the families that will not get the good news they did. :(

HumnHilghtFreel
04-16-2007, 06:19 PM
From what I've gathered, the initial shootings happened at 7:15 and the school sent out EMAILS almost 2 hours later before the second rounds of shootings happened?

I smell a lawsuit or something coming at VT. There's no reason more students shouldn't have known what was going on.

And I'm glad to hear she's okay, TeamDunn

jnickols
04-16-2007, 06:30 PM
How horrific, we send our most cherished treasures, our children off to college and never in our wildest dreams could we imagine something like this. This is their home away from home. I pray for each and every family affected. I only hope there are no copycats out there. Our thought and prayers are with you.

TeamDunn
04-16-2007, 06:31 PM
I guess it would not be a bad idea for parents to have a copy of their kids schedules so they know what building they should be in at any given time.

This is just so sad and senseless. :(

Joseph
04-16-2007, 06:35 PM
I'm relieved to hear the news for your friend TD. Even though we're all just people on a message board, but at times it feels like family and to know 'family' is concerned can only leave me feeling the same way.

WVRed
04-16-2007, 06:38 PM
I guess it would not be a bad idea for parents to have a copy of their kids schedules so they know what building they should be in at any given time.

This is just so sad and senseless. :(

I forget what it is called, but there is something here where I go to college that prohibits them from divulging information about students to outside sources, including parents. Not sure if that exists at every college.

The only way around it is if the student waives the right so the school cannot be sued, but I don't see a lot of college age students (18-21) releasing their supposed whereabouts to their parents.

My thoughts and prayers are with the families affected.

MrCinatit
04-16-2007, 06:48 PM
How does an idiot like that get a gun and so much ammo?

Chip R
04-16-2007, 06:48 PM
I forget what it is called, but there is something here where I go to college that prohibits them from divulging information about students to outside sources, including parents. Not sure if that exists at every college.

The only way around it is if the student waives the right so the school cannot be sued, but I don't see a lot of college age students (18-21) releasing their supposed whereabouts to their parents.

My thoughts and prayers are with the families affected.


It's called the FERPA act of 1974. It's a federal law. Basically a college can give out a student's name, their program, participation in officially recognized activities and sports, weight and height of the athletes, dates of attendance, degrees and awards received, most recent previous educational institution attended and enrollment status.

If a student doesn't want their parents to know their schedule, the school can't help them. The only way around this is if a student gives their written consent to release any othe information. I deal with this every day. You never know when some one is going to be looking for someone for whatever reason. You tell them the student is in such and such a room and you have something like this happen.

It was probably pretty difficult to communicate with the outside there today as everyone was probably calling and e-mailing people to let them know they were OK. So sad to see these kids get killed so young.

kaldaniels
04-16-2007, 06:54 PM
Trust me, not making light of this in ANY way, but I had been wondering what it would take to get people on the news to move away from the Imus story.

Here in Atlanta I believe it was Neil Boortz said had this happened last Monday Don Imus would still have a job.

TeamDunn
04-16-2007, 07:04 PM
I don't see why students would not give their parents their schedules?? I was not talking about a university doing it...I meant for the parents to get it from the kids before they head off to school. I never realized it was taboo to share that info with your parents??? :confused: (Especially if they are paying for your education)

griffeyfreak4
04-16-2007, 07:09 PM
I just heard an interview of a boy who was in a class where many of his classmates were shot.....gave me the shivers. Just horrible, horrible......

There was a first shooting where only one or two were killed, and then two hours later many more were killed. VT didn't feel the need to alert all the students because they thought they apprehended all the suspects.

My mom's brother (my uncle) was killed when I was just a child, and she is now remembering what it was like to receive a phone call, and getting told that your brother/sister/daughter/son/ect has been killed. Just plain disbelief.....

So sad :(

WVRed
04-16-2007, 08:20 PM
I don't see why students would not give their parents their schedules?? I was not talking about a university doing it...I meant for the parents to get it from the kids before they head off to school. I never realized it was taboo to share that info with your parents??? :confused: (Especially if they are paying for your education)

A lot of students attend by scholarship and other means of financial aid, so payment really isnt an issue.

Of course, kids probably do share their schedules with their parents, but the kids are either pulling the covers over the parents eyes, or the parents are turning a blind eye to the kids. I think that will change after this.

Cedric
04-16-2007, 08:55 PM
This is totally new. Nobody has ever done a domestic killing and then waited two hours to mass kill people on the other side of campus.

Blame is the immediate response and it's something CNN and FOXNews are blabbing about. It's a very unique situation and something nobody can plan for.

George Foster
04-16-2007, 11:13 PM
This is totally new. Nobody has ever done a domestic killing and then waited two hours to mass kill people on the other side of campus.

Blame is the immediate response and it's something CNN and FOXNews are blabbing about. It's a very unique situation and something nobody can plan for.

I totally agree. It's no ones fault but the killers. That is a huge campus. If someone in Lexington killed someone real close to campus at 7am...you don't lock down the campus. If someone kills a person or persons just on campus at 7am you don't lock down the campus. On north campus at UK there is a McDonalds 200 feet from a dorm. The dorm is on campus and the McDonalds is not. If someone was shot at the McDonalds no one on campus would even know about it until your watched the evening news. The cops thought, and rightfully so this was a domistic killing. It was over, the killer was on the run, not planning to wait 2 hours and then kill and injure another 50 people.

Everybody was in transit to campus at 7am, including 10,000 employees. I say it was safer to let them get to work or class and then lock it down rather to allow them to park, walk to class or work, then have them walk back to their car or dorm.

It's a horrible situation. It's not the administrations fault.

paintmered
04-16-2007, 11:16 PM
It's a horrible situation. It's not the administrations fault.

Of course it isn't the administration's fault. But I get the sickening feeling that they will be blamed for these events in civil court. And it will happen sooner than we all think.

I'm willing to bet the litigation cases are already being prepared. :(

halcyon
04-17-2007, 12:24 AM
I've talked with my friend on and off today. He is in a graduating senior class of ChemE's with about 28 other students. They all know each other fairly well. One of his classmates happened to be in the German class that has made so many headlines. He found out tonite that she was not one of the four students who escaped with their lives. I can't even begin to take this all in. How awful.

harangatang
04-17-2007, 01:20 AM
I've talked with my friend on and off today. He is in a graduating senior class of ChemE's with about 28 other students. They all know each other fairly well. One of his classmates happened to be in the German class that has made so many headlines. He found out tonite that she was not one of the four students who escaped with their lives. I can't even begin to take this all in. How awful.That's horrible, for all people involved. As a college student to think that could be me or someone I know or love is scary. It really makes you think about life and the uncertainties that surround it. My thoughts and prayers go out to everyone involved directly or indirectly. I'm sure they'll be alot of nervous college students going to class all across the country tomorrow (well today now I guess).

harangatang
04-17-2007, 01:29 AM
Of course it isn't the administration's fault. But I get the sickening feeling that they will be blamed for these events in civil court. And it will happen sooner than we all think.

I'm willing to bet the litigation cases are already being prepared. :(Exactly right. If people really cared about fixing the problem they would try to find a reason that someone would do such a thing. And then not stop there but find a way to predict such possible behavior. Instead people will point fingers at the most convienant excuse they can find and never think beyond it.

Ravenlord
04-17-2007, 01:45 AM
Exactly right. If people really cared about fixing the problem they would try to find a reason that someone would do such a thing. And then not stop there but find a way to predict such possible behavior. Instead people will point fingers at the most convienant excuse they can find and never think beyond it.

like Columbine being heavily blamed on Marylin Manson despite both boys hating his music.

WMR
04-17-2007, 03:25 AM
What makes me most sick about all this is how this killer, this COWARD, took his own life. At least the prosecution of a killer gives families some small measure of closure, no matter how little satisfaction it may be when compared to the inconsolable pain caused by the loss of their loved one.

Will these families ever get their questions answered as to why this happened? Clearly, they'll never get the chance to confront this sick monster and express their grief and rage, and that really pisses me off.

Just so incredibly sad. :( :( :(

RadfordVA
04-17-2007, 04:30 AM
As you might know from my username I live in the neighboring city. It is pretty crazy when the place you live is the news capital of the world all of a sudden. I manage a hotel in blacksburg and every news station has at least one crew here. I personally dont understand this monster that is the 24 hour news phenomenon. How many times can you watch the same stuff over and over. I feel like im giving the people that do these things exactly what they want(attention) so I try to avoid as much of it as possible. Seems like it gives anyone that wants their 15 minutes of fame the incentive to do something like this. To hear these news crews talk is weird because it isnt a tragedy to them its just another assignment. They all know each other because I suppose they just travel from tragedy to tragedy. Oh well people must be watching so I guess it will continue.

LoganBuck
04-17-2007, 07:48 AM
The talking heads that are demanding to know why they didn't shut down the campus after the first shooting, must have gone to a very small school. At massive schools like Virginia Tech or Ohio State. You are dealing with a self contained city. Shutting down a small city is not practical if you believe a domestic tragedy has occurred.

Others wondering how he got so much fire power. Two Glock 9s with magazines + amo, can fit in your coat pockets easily. You don't need an AK-47, to create mass murder.

Such a tragedy....

RFS62
04-17-2007, 08:06 AM
A lot of incredible stories coming out of the VT shootings.

CNN just had a former Israeli Terrorism expert criticizing the police for not rushing into the building as the shots were being fired. He was analyzing the cell phone camera shot that has been playing over and over.

What the hell do we expect of police? Rapid fire automatic weapon fire going off, no knowledge if it's one person or ten, and this guy thinks they should have reacted with the skill and efficiency of Jack Bauer.

And now the lawsuits will probably begin.

Cedric
04-17-2007, 09:22 AM
As you might know from my username I live in the neighboring city. It is pretty crazy when the place you live is the news capital of the world all of a sudden. I manage a hotel in blacksburg and every news station has at least one crew here. I personally dont understand this monster that is the 24 hour news phenomenon. How many times can you watch the same stuff over and over. I feel like im giving the people that do these things exactly what they want(attention) so I try to avoid as much of it as possible. Seems like it gives anyone that wants their 15 minutes of fame the incentive to do something like this. To hear these news crews talk is weird because it isnt a tragedy to them its just another assignment. They all know each other because I suppose they just travel from tragedy to tragedy. Oh well people must be watching so I guess it will continue.

The media blitz on all things is just scary. I'm certainly not getting used to it. It get's absolutely worse every year.

Joseph
04-17-2007, 09:28 AM
like Columbine being heavily blamed on Marylin Manson despite both boys hating his music.

Let's not forget the myth that those boys were outsiders and not like their classmates and were bullied. These two boys were just like most of the other kids in their class, only in their insane act did people try to create a way to be different than them and separate themselves.

On the Virginia Tech situation, they have canceled all classes for the rest of the week.

Unassisted
04-17-2007, 09:39 AM
To hear these news crews talk is weird because it isnt a tragedy to them its just another assignment. They all know each other because I suppose they just travel from tragedy to tragedy. Oh well people must be watching so I guess it will continue.

This is nothing new. I used to work in TV news almost 20 years ago and there was always a lot of gallows humor and focus on the news product rather than the story. "If it bleeds, it leads" (the newscast) was true back then, too. The people behind the camera tend to view things with a great deal of detachment. Considering the number of heartbreaking aftermaths that news people witness from up close, they need to have a fairly hard shell to cope.

TeamMorris
04-17-2007, 09:40 AM
There is a press conference on right now about it. Very sad!!!

Reds Fanatic
04-17-2007, 09:57 AM
The same gun was used in both shootings. They have identified the shooter. It was a 23 year Korean student Cho Seung-Hui who was a senior in the English department.

BRM
04-17-2007, 10:16 AM
Have they released how this guy obtained the guns? Did he steal them or were they his legally? Just curious.

BRM
04-17-2007, 10:36 AM
Nevermind, ABC is reporting he apparently bought a Glock 9mm back in March.


Sources say Cho was carrying a backpack that contained receipts for a March purchase of a Glock 9 mm pistol. Witnesses had told authorities that the shooter was carrying a backpack. Police also said this morning that Cho had a .22 caliber pistol.

WMR
04-17-2007, 10:42 AM
Is it true that he's a Chinese National?

How does someone who isn't a U.S. citizen purchase a firearm?

TeamDunn
04-17-2007, 10:43 AM
I believe they said he was from South Korea and he had a green card??

BRM
04-17-2007, 10:43 AM
Is it true that he's a Chinese National?

How does someone who isn't a U.S. citizen purchase a firearm?

He was a South Korean national. This ABC article says he is a resident alien. What does that mean exactly?



He is Cho Seung-Hui, a 23-year-old resident alien of the United States, as first reported by ABC News.

Cho is a South Korean national, a Virginia Tech senior majoring in English and the man who killed 33 people — inlcuding himself — on the Virginia Tech campus Monday.

TeamDunn
04-17-2007, 10:45 AM
Per an AP article...


Cho was a permanent legal resident of the United States, according to a Homeland Security Department official who spoke on condition of anonymity because the information had not been announced.

TeamDunn
04-17-2007, 10:49 AM
Ch 12's website has his picture posted..

http://www.local12.com/Default.aspx

http://content.clearchannel.com/Photos/crime/Virginia_Tech/cho_seung-hui.jpg

Joseph
04-17-2007, 10:53 AM
The face of the butcher of Blacksburg.

Doesn't look much like a killer does he? Such a senseless situation all around.

rdiersin
04-17-2007, 10:55 AM
The face of the butcher of Blacksburg.

Doesn't look much like a killer does he? Such a senseless situation all around.


It doesn't quite seem to add up to me. An English senior in a German class in an engineering building. The German class in an engineering building is somewhat normal, but the rest just doesn't seem to add up. Do we know if they are still thinking it was an ex-girlfriend thing now that they connected the two shootings?

TeamDunn
04-17-2007, 11:00 AM
If he was such a loner I wonder if he had just fixated himself on someone and then flipped out yesterday?

You would think her dorm mates would know a little about who she was dating, they would have seen him around or something (and shared that info with the police).

Not too bright to file off serial #'s but leave the receipt for the purchase in your backpack. :confused:

Of course we are not talking about someone with any scruples whatsoever.

Joseph
04-17-2007, 11:03 AM
This is my theory and nothing more, so take it for what its worth.

Guy gets dumped for another guy. Let's it stew for a few days/weeks whatever it was and plots and plans his revenge, buys a gun. Yesterday goes to dorm room to see if guy and or girl are there. Finds the girl, kills her. Kills the floor RA who comes to help the victim. Then goes to the building where the new boyfriend has classes and isn't sure who/where he is even so he starts going room by room shooting anyone and everyone he can.

Probably just my brain trying to wrap an answer up for the event, but I can't think of much of a reason.

rdiersin
04-17-2007, 11:07 AM
If he was such a loner I wonder if he had just fixated himself on someone and then flipped out yesterday?

You would think her dorm mates would know a little about who she was dating, they would have seen him around or something (and shared that info with the police).

Not too bright to file off serial #'s but leave the receipt for the purchase in your backpack. :confused:

Of course we are not talking about someone with any scruples whatsoever.


Well, I guess this is my confusion, IIRC, they said they had a "person of interest" in custody after the first shooting and, I guess, before the second. I assumed this was the boyfriend. Maybe not. I did see this:


The Virginia Tech police chief, Wendell Flinchum, said today that an acquaintance of a female victim killed at the dormitory had been stopped in his vehicle off campus for questioning when the shootings at Norris Hall were reported.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/17/us/17virginia.html?hp

So maybe he went to the German class for his ex-girlfriend? It does seem that someone in the dorm might have seen the guy if he was an ex-boyfriend.

paintmered
04-17-2007, 11:26 AM
He was a South Korean national. This ABC article says he is a resident alien. What does that mean exactly?

That means he was here legally.

dabvu2498
04-17-2007, 11:29 AM
He'd have to be here legally to be enrolled in classes at VPI.

Student visa maybe?

Joseph
04-17-2007, 11:31 AM
Not to diverge from the tragedy at hand, but in events like these, why are the first words said about the killers that they were 'loners'?

I do not mean defend this man in any sense of the word, but why is there the sudden rush to set them apart from the rest of society in an event like this?

I'm asking this on the psychoanalytical level in relation to US and the media, and again not in an attempt to defend the killer.

WMR
04-17-2007, 11:33 AM
Do we really want "resident legal aliens" running around with guns?

I'm in the NRA and about as pro-gun ownership as anybody, but that just seems nuts to me. What could a resident legal alien possibly need with a 9 mm handgun?

TeamDunn
04-17-2007, 11:35 AM
Honestly?

I don't think anyone wants to belive that a nut like this had friends, family or loved ones...then he would be "like us".

Just the first thing that popped into my head when I read your post. Love to hear other answers!

BRM
04-17-2007, 11:35 AM
That means he was here legally.

Thanks. I read another article stating he was a permanent legal resident of the U.S.

rdiersin
04-17-2007, 11:36 AM
I'd have to agree TD, people just don't want to think that this could be anyone. If they were "loners", then it sounds like people couldn't have helped him, if that makes sense. Has this guy been described as a loner? I haven't heard that.

TeamDunn
04-17-2007, 11:37 AM
What is the difference? He is a legal resident of the US. We have members of our military that are from other countries...should they not be allowed to carry guns either? I'm just asking...


Do we really want "resident legal aliens" running around with guns?

I'm in the NRA and about as pro-gun ownership as anybody, but that just seems nuts to me. What could a resident legal alien possibly need with a 9 mm handgun?

Chip R
04-17-2007, 11:37 AM
Not making a statement one way or another about gun control but if you want a gun bad enough, you can get it no matter what your residency status is.

WMR
04-17-2007, 11:39 AM
What is the difference? He is a legal resident of the US. We have members of our military that are from other countries...should they not be allowed to carry guns either? I'm just asking...

I think that's a privilege that should be reserved for U.S. citizens.

"Legal residents" aren't allowed to serve in our armed forces, you've got to be a U.S. citizen.

For U.S. citizens, wherever their origin, of course, they should have the same gun ownership rights as anyone else, IMO.

If you're not a U.S. citizen, however, I don't think you should be possessing a gun within this country.

TeamDunn
04-17-2007, 11:40 AM
In one of the news conferences they labeled him a "loner" and that they were having a difficult time finding out things about him because of that.

It could also be no one wants to admit they are friends with him! :eek:

True, anyone can buy a gun on the streets...sadly it will probably be sold by a teenager. :(

WMR
04-17-2007, 11:40 AM
Not making a statement one way or another about gun control but if you want a gun bad enough, you can get it no matter what your residency status is.

That's certainly true, but I think allowing ANYONE to legally purchase a firearm within our borders without possessing U.S. citizenship is horrible policy.

BRM
04-17-2007, 11:43 AM
"Legal residents" aren't allowed to serve in our armed forces, you've got to be a U.S. citizen.


Actually, they are. You do not need to be a U.S. citizen to serve in the military.

WMR
04-17-2007, 11:47 AM
Actually, they are. You do not need to be a U.S. citizen to serve in the military.

Whoops! Oh really?!? Wow, I had no clue. Thanks for the edification.

WMR
04-17-2007, 11:48 AM
Actually, they are. You do not need to be a U.S. citizen to serve in the military.

What sort of classification do you need?

BRM
04-17-2007, 11:50 AM
What sort of classification do you need?

I'm trying to find something definitive but I'm having no luck. I'm thinking you just need to be a legal immigrant, like this guy was.

Chip R
04-17-2007, 11:53 AM
That's certainly true, but I think allowing ANYONE to legally purchase a firearm within our borders without possessing U.S. citizenship is horrible policy.


But stopping non-citizens from purchasing firearms isn't going to stop something like this. This isn't an Asian problem or a immigration problem. It could have been any disgruntled person who was born and raised here just like the Columbine massacre.

Cedric
04-17-2007, 11:53 AM
What sort of classification do you need?

You must have entered the United States on a permanent residence visa or have an Alien Registration Card. You also have to have a permanent residence in the United States.

Can't reenlist either unless you become a US citizen during your first term.

registerthis
04-17-2007, 12:03 PM
Do we really want "resident legal aliens" running around with guns?

I'd prefer not to have anyone running around with guns--immigrants or not.

registerthis
04-17-2007, 12:05 PM
That's certainly true, but I think allowing ANYONE to legally purchase a firearm within our borders without possessing U.S. citizenship is horrible policy.

Why? Are immigrants more prone to abuse firearms than American citizens?

And once an immigrant crosses the line from permanent resident to U.S. citizen, what has happened that suddenly entitles that individual to ownership of a gun that did not exist before?

Cedric
04-17-2007, 12:07 PM
I'm not a moderator, but let's not ruin this thread with gun control questions.

Talk about a highly charged subject.

Joseph
04-17-2007, 12:09 PM
Why? Are immigrants more prone to abuse firearms than American citizens?

And once an immigrant crosses the line from permanent resident to U.S. citizen, what has happened that suddenly entitles that individual to ownership of a gun that did not exist before?

I agree Register....this is simply another version of what I asked...why the quick need to jump to split us from them? Why isn't it about where WE failed as a society, not how did Va Tech screw up and not about how this guy is a loner and recluse and something we are all not in some way. The immigrant argument is just another way to say he's not like us in many ways.

registerthis
04-17-2007, 12:12 PM
I agree Register....this is simply another version of what I asked...why the quick need to jump to split us from them? Why isn't it about where WE failed as a society, not how did Va Tech screw up and not about how this guy is a loner and recluse and something we are all not in some way. The immigrant argument is just another way to say he's not like us in many ways.

There but for the grace of God go I.

Joseph
04-17-2007, 12:31 PM
There but for the grace of God go I.

Precisely my feelings.

paintmered
04-17-2007, 12:36 PM
Whoops! Oh really?!? Wow, I had no clue. Thanks for the edification.

This is correct.

TeamDunn
04-17-2007, 12:42 PM
Somebody was apparently worried:


The gunman suspected of carrying out the Virginia Tech massacre that left 33 people dead was identified Tuesday as a English major whose creative writing was so disturbing that he was referred to the school's counseling service.

News reports also said that he may have been taking medication for depression, that he was becoming increasingly violent and erratic, and that he left a note in his dorm in which he railed against "rich kids," "debauchery" and "deceitful charlatans" on campus.


The Chicago Tribune reported on its Web site that he left a note in his dorm room that included a rambling list of grievances. Citing identified sources, the Tribune said he had recently shown troubling signs, including setting a fire in a dorm room and stalking some women.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070417/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting

RedsBaron
04-17-2007, 01:20 PM
Somebody was apparently worried:





http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070417/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting

Setting a fire in his dorm room and stalking some women? Somebody should have been worried.

WMR
04-17-2007, 02:01 PM
Why? Are immigrants more prone to abuse firearms than American citizens?

And once an immigrant crosses the line from permanent resident to U.S. citizen, what has happened that suddenly entitles that individual to ownership of a gun that did not exist before?

Owning a firearm isn't an absolute right in this country, it's a privilege. And one that I feel should be reserved for those possessing citizenship within this country.

Immigrants, generally, have a much shorter "track record" in regards to how much is known about their background and what they have been involved with in the past.

Many foreign police forces operate with little national centralization. Once an immigrant becomes a U.S. citizen, the "carrot" of gun ownership has been earned and should be made available to them if they so desire.

Somebody born in the U.S. can be a killer just as easily as a foreign immigrant, but I'd feel safer if those people permitted to purchase and own firearms are 'tied' to the utmost to our country and hopefully have established a lengthy track record of functioning as a law abiding citizen in American society.

Joseph
04-17-2007, 02:34 PM
Owning a firearm isn't an absolute right in this country, it's a privilege. And one that I feel should be reserved for those possessing citizenship within this country.

Immigrants, generally, have a much shorter "track record" in regards to how much is known about their background and what they have been involved with in the past.

Many foreign police forces operate with little national centralization. Once an immigrant becomes a U.S. citizen, the "carrot" of gun ownership has been earned and should be made available to them if they so desire.

Somebody born in the U.S. can be a killer just as easily as a foreign immigrant, but I'd feel safer if those people permitted to purchase and own firearms are 'tied' to the utmost to our country and hopefully have established a lengthy track record of functioning as a law abiding citizen in American society.

So you'd be an advocate of a test to prove someone capable of owning and using a fire arm in the same manner we test people for the right to drive?

WMR
04-17-2007, 02:48 PM
So you'd be an advocate of a test to prove someone capable of owning and using a fire arm in the same manner we test people for the right to drive?

I'd be cool with that, but that's not really the point of my post that you quoted. Testing whether or not someone is capable of operating a firearm doesn't really tell us much about whether or not they should.

Joseph
04-17-2007, 02:50 PM
Obviously not, but it would be one more protective measure. Naturally it wouldn't end things like this, but it might stop the occasional one here and there.

WMR
04-17-2007, 02:55 PM
Oh yeah especially when it comes to accidents around the house/self-inflicted wounds ... To go one step further: I think every gun owner should be required to demonstrate their ability to lock up their gun via either a trigger lock or safe.

It doesn't ensure that they'll use it, but at least the odds are better that they will if you know that they at least own something similar. Too many legally purchased guns ending up in the hands of those who they don't belong. It'd be a way to hopefully increase safety while not directly infringing on gun ownership rights.

Reds Fanatic
04-17-2007, 03:36 PM
Unfortunately like in a lot of these cases the copycats are out making threats trying to get attention.



Campus threats forced lock-downs and evacuations at universities in Texas, Oklahoma and Tennessee and two public schools in Louisiana on Tuesday, a day after a Virginia Tech student's shooting rampage killed 33 people.
In Louisiana, parents picked up hundreds of students from Bogalusa's high school and middle school amid reports that a man had been arrested Tuesday morning for threatening a mass killing in a note that alluded to the murders at Virginia Tech.

Schools Superintendent Jerry Payne said both schools were locked down and police arrested a 53-year-old man who allegedly made the threat in a note he gave to a student headed to the private Bowling Green School in Franklinton. Both towns are in southeastern Louisiana.

"The note referred to what happened at Virginia Tech," Payne said. "It said something like, 'If you think that was bad, then you haven't seen anything yet."

In Austin, authorities evacuated buildings at St. Edward's University after a threatening note was found, a school official said.

Police secured the campus perimeter and were searching the buildings, St. Edward's University spokeswoman Mischelle Amador said. She declined to say where the note was found and said its contents were "nonspecific."

The two other scares were determined to be unfounded.

At the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga, officials ordered three campus administration buildings evacuated for almost two hours Tuesday morning in response to a telephone bomb threat. The city's bomb squad searched the buildings but found nothing, campus spokesman Chuck Cantrell said.

Cantrell said there was no reason to believe the bogus threat was related to the shootings at Virginia Tech, but "we just chose to err on the side of caution today."

The other, at the University of Oklahoma, had started with a report of a man spotted on campus carrying a suspicious object, officials said.

The man was carrying an umbrella, not a weapon, and he later identified himself to authorities, University of Oklahoma President David Boren said in a statement. Boren initially had said the person was believed to carrying a yoga mat.

"We now consider the matter closed," Boren said. "We always want to err on the side of caution in a situation like this."

At St. Edward's in Austin, students who live on campus were being allowed to return to their dormitories as police finished searching each building, Amador said. Faculty, staff and all other students were asked to stay away from the campus, and morning and afternoon classes were canceled. About 5,200 students are enrolled at the Catholic university south of downtown Austin.

Amador said the university's reaction was not influenced by Monday's attack at Virginia Tech.

"No matter what day or when this would have happened, we will always take the necessary precautions to protect our students, our faculty, our staff, the entire university community," she said.

oneupper
04-17-2007, 03:39 PM
As a permanent resident alien of the US, I'm not too thrilled about where this thread is going.

To clear up a few things...

As part of the immigration process...applicants are screened. Police and health records must be provided. Heck, if you can't come up with your childhood innoculation records...they will give you a horse needle with vaccinations to everything...again.

In the case of family petitions, the person claiming you must vouch for your financial welfare, since you are not allowed any federal (not sure if state) assistance.

Once you are approved and come to the US, you are bound by all the laws of the land and the obligations that come with it (important since it iS April 17th). And with very small limitations (ability to hold some offices, vote and participate in juries)...you enjoy the same rights.

Unless your screw up...and get yourself deported, you can be a permanent legal alien for as long as you like. After 5 years of being a green card holder you can opt to become a US Citizen (after passing a simple citizenship test).

It's not easy to become a permanent legal alien in the US. I had to wait 14 years for my petition's number to come up. But this is a very good country in which to live in so many people choose to do so (as did I). Others do so out of necessity (not so much my case).

In any case, I appreciate the fact that we are allowed to live in this great country enjoying the same rights as those who were born here. It would really be nice if it stayed that way.

RedsBaron
04-17-2007, 04:58 PM
Has anyone read about the 76 year old professor who sacrificed his life to save his students? As reported in the Jerusalem post, Professor Liviu Librescu threw himself in front of the shooter when the murderer attempted to enter his classroom. He was shot to death as he blocked the doorway and asked students to flee. Students jumped out through windows. Professor Librescu was a Holocaust survivor who escaped communist Romania for Israel in 1978 and moved to Virginia in 1986. He was murdered on Holocaust Remembrance Day.

NorrisHopper30
04-17-2007, 05:12 PM
Has anyone read about the 76 year old professor who sacrificed his life to save his students? As reported in the Jerusalem post, Professor Liviu Librescu threw himself in front of the shooter when the murderer attempted to enter his classroom. He was shot to death as he blocked the doorway and asked students to flee. Students jumped out through windows. Professor Librescu was a Holocaust survivor who escaped communist Romania for Israel in 1978 and moved to Virginia in 1986. He was murdered on Holocaust Remembrance Day.

Yeah, I heard about this. What a great man. I'm sure he saved countless lives and his family and students should be very proud of him. He's certainly in my prayers.

westofyou
04-17-2007, 05:23 PM
http://detroittigertales.blogspot.com/2007/04/sad-day-for-our-community.html


Sad Day for Our Community

Brian Bluhm, a popular member of the Detroit Tigers internet community, was one of the students killed in the horrible shooting at Virginia Tech yesterday. I never met Brian in person but he was an important part of my life over the past several years. The same sentiment is being expressed by hundreds of friends on the blogs and messageboards which make up our community. Our thoughts are with his family today.

Brian, who was 25 years old, was weeks away from completing a Masters degree in Civil Engineering and starting a promising career in water resources. I had known him throughout most of his undergraduate and graduate years at Virginia Tech. Anybody who has participated on Detroit Tigers messageboards or blogs over the past 6 or 7 years has surely come in contact with Brian. He was usually known on the internet as "estrepe1" and sometimes as VTTigers or BrianB.

Everybody who knew Brian liked him as a person and appreciated his knowledge of the game and of the Tigers. Whenever we saw his name, we knew it would be followed by an insightful and rational comment about the Tigers. When you talked to Brian, you did not talk to an anonymous fan on a messageboard. You talked to a very intelligent, cordial and thoughtful gentleman. He was straightforward and honest and always interested in what you had to say. He was a real person and a real friend to all of us and our community will not be the same without him.

oneupper
04-17-2007, 05:41 PM
More info on the shooter:


Cho came to the United States in 1992, through Detroit, Michigan, a department of Homeland Security official said. He had lawful permanent residence, via his parents, and renewed his green card in October 2003, the official said.


This person has been in the US since he was about 8. I figured as much, seeing he was an English Major.

I hope no-one starts proposing all us resident aliens and our kids get psych checks as a condition of renewing our green cards.

redsfanva
04-17-2007, 06:19 PM
Has anyone read about the 76 year old professor who sacrificed his life to save his students? As reported in the Jerusalem post, Professor Liviu Librescu threw himself in front of the shooter when the murderer attempted to enter his classroom. He was shot to death as he blocked the doorway and asked students to flee. Students jumped out through windows. Professor Librescu was a Holocaust survivor who escaped communist Romania for Israel in 1978 and moved to Virginia in 1986. He was murdered on Holocaust Remembrance Day.

I hardly ever post, but read the Reds forum everyday as I am a huge fan of the Reds. I am a student at VT currently. Luckily for me, I was not on campus when these events occured on Monday and did not know any of the people who lost their lives. However, there are many people like Professor Librescu who were heros. This post is correct as he blocked the doors so his students could jump out of the second story in Norris. One of my roommates had him as a teacher and said he was one of the best teachers he ever had.

Our campus came together today with a convocation with President Bush, Governor Kaine and university officials. Although many may not agree with some of the actions that occured with the notifications that were sent out to the students after the first shootings by VT and the police, VT President Steger recieved the largest ovation and should be supported during this time. Please keep the entire VT/Blacksburg community and families in your prayers.

If anyone has any questions about anything, please let me know.

Chip R
04-17-2007, 06:44 PM
More info on the shooter:



This person has been in the US since he was about 8. I figured as much, seeing he was an English Major.

I hope no-one starts proposing all us resident aliens and our kids get psych checks as a condition of renewing our green cards.


That would be extremely short-sighted.

GAC
04-17-2007, 08:37 PM
This is not an immigration problem, nor a gun control issue. This is an "emotionally disturbed, whacked out, crazed individual who was too much of a coward to leave this world on his own, but feels he has to take as many as he can with him" issue.

But I am really having a hard time comprehending how this nut could carry out two separate attacks two hours apart?

Forgive me because my work schedule has been very hectic these last couple of days, so I haven't really been able to stay up on this tragedy at all; but I just can't see how he could have carried out two attacks two hours apart???

BoydsOfSummer
04-17-2007, 08:38 PM
http://detroittigertales.blogspot.com/2007/04/sad-day-for-our-community.html



Brian was a regular over at Sickels's site, which many of us participate in. I was reading some of his posts last night made just a few hours before the murders.Eerie is the word, i guess. I shed a few tears for he and all involved.:(

vaticanplum
04-17-2007, 08:55 PM
like Columbine being heavily blamed on Marylin Manson despite both boys hating his music.

Ok, this is in no way a valid comparison. It would be absurd to haul the VT security authorities into court right now, but there certainly seem to have been enough questions regarding their judgment of the situation to warrant an investigation -- if for no other reason than it may cause schools to re-examine their security policies in hopes of preventing anything like this in the future. Are they responsible for what happened? No. Could they have prevented part of what happened? That isn't the same question, and there's no definitive answer to that question yet. The police could have investigated Marily Manson for all eternity and never would have found any any ability on his part to prevent Columbine. This is not the same thing.

TeamDunn
04-17-2007, 09:42 PM
This is not an immigration problem, nor a gun control issue. This is an "emotionally disturbed, whacked out, crazed individual who was too much of a coward to leave this world on his own, but feels he has to take as many as he can with him" issue.

But I am really having a hard time comprehending how this nut could carry out two separate attacks two hours apart?

Forgive me because my work schedule has been very hectic these last couple of days, so I haven't really been able to stay up on this tragedy at all; but I just can't see how he could have carried out two attacks two hours apart???

GAC,

There has been speculation that those 2 hours were spent typing his 8 page hate letter. I guess the computer forensics people can tell what time he typed that letter to be sure??? Not sure where that "rumor" started...if it was officially released or just someone's thoughts.

I made a comment today that he could have even gone to a hardware store to get the chains and locks he put on the doors.

redsfanva
04-17-2007, 10:40 PM
GAC,

There has been speculation that those 2 hours were spent typing his 8 page hate letter. I guess the computer forensics people can tell what time he typed that letter to be sure??? Not sure where that "rumor" started...if it was officially released or just someone's thoughts.

I made a comment today that he could have even gone to a hardware store to get the chains and locks he put on the doors.

It has been speculated and said on the news that Cho Seung-Hui went back to his dorm room in Harper Hall after the first shootings in AJ Hall. This is no more than a two minute walk or less from one to another (I lived in the dorm building (Cochrane Hall)in between the two). It is unlikely that he went to get chains during this time based on where hardware stores are in location to the campus (although possible). Supposedly the eight page paper was one that he wrote for his English class (he was an English major). We all here wonder what happened during this time frame. It is roughly a 15 minute walk from AJ or Harper Hall to Norris Hall where the 2nd killings occurred.

oneupper
04-18-2007, 07:11 AM
This is not an immigration problem, nor a gun control issue. This is an "emotionally disturbed, whacked out, crazed individual who was too much of a coward to leave this world on his own, but feels he has to take as many as he can with him" issue.



Yes. Exactly. But the search for a "common thread" that unites all these whack jobs is understandable. Like any disease, we yearn for a cure or at the very least...a reliable diagnosis.

Why these things happen and why these things happen in AMERICA (almost exclusively) haunts us all. And I after this latest incident, I don't see us any closer to knowing.

That scares me...

GAC
04-18-2007, 08:15 AM
They feel pain/suffer. So they somehow, in there twisted psyches, feel they must make as many as possibly likewise feel pain and suffer also.

My only question is that when the school discovered the first two shootings, which were around 7:15 AM or so, why they didn't take better precautions based on what they did know, not what they didn't.... two people were shot, the shooter was still loose somewhere. It doesn't matter what they were being told or assumed. They have a responsibility to that campus and those students/faculty present. Not second guess. Not in these situations.

I'm not saying they "lock down" the campus. That is almost an impossibility. But they could have had the police/SWAT teams in there as soon as possible, providing surveillance, setting up checkpoints, or at least guarding/monitoring entrances to several of the main buildings/classrooms on campus. For crying out loud, make an effort to provide some sort of security/safeguards until you know more.

If this guy had walked back to his dorm to do whatever, do you think he would have, some two hours later, been able to walk into that other building if there were trained (and armed) police patrolling the campus and/or set up at some of the entrances?

The more I delve into this situation I realize it would have been almost impossible to stop the initial shooting. But that should have been enough of a warning to these administrators to act more decisively. Even if they went somewhat overboard in their actions to secure the campus, it would have been justified and at least understood by the masses (and parents) due to what just transpired. I'd rather be condemned for doing too much then too little in these types of situations.

paintmered
04-18-2007, 08:27 AM
They feel pain/suffer. So they somehow, in there twisted psyches, feel they must make as many as possibly likewise feel pain and suffer also.

My only question is that when the school discovered the first two shootings, which were around 7:15 AM or so, why they didn't take better precautions based on what they did know, not what they didn't.... two people were shot, the shooter was still loose somewhere. It doesn't matter what they were being told or assumed. They have a responsibility to that campus and those students/faculty present. Not second guess. Not in these situations.

I'm not saying they "lock down" the campus. That is almost an impossibility. But they could have had the police/SWAT teams in there as soon as possible, providing surveillance, setting up checkpoints, or at least guarding/monitoring entrances to several of the main buildings/classrooms on campus. For crying out loud, make an effort to provide some sort of security/safeguards until you know more.

If this guy had walked back to his dorm to do whatever, do you think he would have, some two hours later, been able to walk into that other building if there were trained (and armed) police patrolling the campus and/or set up at some of the entrances?

The more I delve into this situation I realize it would have been almost impossible to stop the initial shooting. But that should have been enough of a warning to these administrators to act more decisively. Even if they went somewhat overboard in their actions to secure the campus, it would have been justified and at least understood by the masses (and parents) due to what just transpired. I'd rather be condemned for doing too much then too little in these types of situations.

GAC, the campus is 2600 acres. The authorities thought they had the first incident handled. It's very easy to see why the gunmen snuck through. It doesn't make it anyone's fault.

Blacksburg is a small town. Heavy police teams like SWAT probably aren't based there. In a few minutes of searching, I couldn't find evidence of the existence of a Blacksburg SWAT. I'm guessing the closest team is based out of Roanoke, which is a solid hour drive away.

GAC
04-18-2007, 08:44 AM
GAC, the campus is 2600 acres.

I understand it's a huge campus paint. That's why I said it would be impossible to lock it down.


The authorities thought they had the first incident handled.

Based on what though? It seems a lot of assumptions, and not facts.


It's very easy to see why the gunmen snuck through. It doesn't make it anyone's fault.

I'm really not trying to give the VA Tech administrators hell (or grief) over an obviously unusual and difficult scenario. It's not like they have had to face this before. But with all that has gone on in this day and age, especially involving crazed, unhinged individuals every so often, I think they kind of let their guard down, based on assumptions, after those initial shootings. Some students were contacting the school and being told it was a bomb scare.

When were the local police first called and arrived on the scene? Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it seems they tried to handle/investigate this with campus police.

I guess until more facts come out on this, we're all going to be second-guessing. But it sure seems to me that I'd have had what police I had, even campus ones, stationed at the entrances of a few of those buildings (classrooms) just as a precaution until more could be known.

Red Leader
04-18-2007, 08:47 AM
Looks like things aren't over yet.

Per CNN.com:

Breaking News >> Virginia Tech School Building Evacuated, Police Swarm Area With Guns Drawn

BLACKSBURG, Virginia (CNN) -- Police officers carrying rifles and wearing flak jackets surrounded a building Wednesday next to the engineering building in which 31 people died Monday in the nation's deadliest shooting spree.

Virginia Tech police said "we had reason to believe there was a need to secure the president's office" but would not elaborate.

paintmered
04-18-2007, 08:49 AM
When were the local police first called and arrived on the scene? Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it seems they tried to handle/investigate this with campus police.

Of course the campus police responded. It's their jurisdiction.

Red Leader
04-18-2007, 09:18 AM
It looks like today's events at VT were just a scare:


BLACKSBURG, Virginia (CNN) -- Police officers carrying rifles and wearing flak jackets responded to what turned out to be an unfounded threat Wednesday near the engineering building in which 31 people died Monday in the nation's deadliest shooting spree.

A state police officer told CNN "there was an unusual event at Burruss Hall, we responded, it was unfounded, and that's all we're going to say."

Another state police officer said the event involved a threat against university president Charles Steger.

Virginia Tech police said "we had reason to believe there was a need to secure the president's office" but would not elaborate. "It's over."

State police and an armored truck also responded to Burruss Hall, next to Norris Hall

TeamDunn
04-18-2007, 09:34 AM
GAC,

On the first incident the police were told that the shooter (male white with long hair wearing a black jacket) had left in a black pick up truck.

I'm sorry, but no one could have seen this coming. How many killers stay in the area after they have just killed two people in a semi-public place???

With your way of thinking then each time there is a shooting in Over the Rhine, Newport, Covington and so on...Downtown Cincinnati should be warned and locked down. It just does not happen that way.

Everything at the initial shooting told them it was a domestic situation, not a mass murderer just getting started.

Does anyone know if the local media ran with the story of the first shooting? Around here the media has police scanners and in some cases have arrived at shooting sites before the police or paramedics. Were the radio stations and news stations not talking about the first shooting that morning?

I can honestly say that if I were a student that lived on or off campus and heard the details that were initially released I would have still gone on to class not thinking it was anything else.

Has that changed for future events on a campus? SURE! Now people will react as if it could be a larger threat. It is just like 9/11. Prior to that passengers would have never tried to take down a hijacker. The odds were better if you did not fight back. Get on a plane today and someone starts acting weird and they will be taken down quickly by several passengers.

I think they said there are 100 buildings on campus?? With the info they had they were looking for someone that fled the area...they are not going to place 100 police officers (that would have to come from every town in 20-30 miles probably) around campus.

People can second guess the campus police and administration on they want. I just do not see how they could have done it differently at that moment. I bet every single person in authority had their hearts sink when they heard there was shooting on the other side of the campus.

rdiersin
04-18-2007, 09:35 AM
Based on what though? It seems a lot of assumptions, and not facts.


This might expain it for you.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/18/us/18cnd-virginia.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin


After two people, Emily Jane Hilscher, a freshman, and Ryan Clark, the resident adviser whose room was nearby in the dormitory, were shot dead, the campus police began searching for Karl D. Thornhill, who was described in Internet memorials as Ms. Hilscher’s boyfriend.

According to a search warrant filed by the police, Ms. Hilscher’s roommate had told the police that Mr. Thornhill, a student at nearby Radford University, had guns at his town house. The roommate told the police that she had recently been at a shooting range with Mr. Thornhill, the affidavit said, leading the police to believe he may have been the gunman.

But as they were questioning Mr. Thornhill, reports of widespread shooting at Norris Hall came in, making it clear that they had not contained the threat on campus. Mr. Thornhill was not arrested, although he continues to be an important witness in the case, the police said.

RFS62
04-18-2007, 10:12 AM
GAC,

On the first incident the police were told that the shooter (male white with long hair wearing a black jacket) had left in a black pick up truck.

I'm sorry, but no one could have seen this coming. How many killers stay in the area after they have just killed two people in a semi-public place???

With your way of thinking then each time there is a shooting in Over the Rhine, Newport, Covington and so on...Downtown Cincinnati should be warned and locked down. It just does not happen that way.

Everything at the initial shooting told them it was a domestic situation, not a mass murderer just getting started.

Does anyone know if the local media ran with the story of the first shooting? Around here the media has police scanners and in some cases have arrived at shooting sites before the police or paramedics. Were the radio stations and news stations not talking about the first shooting that morning?

I can honestly say that if I were a student that lived on or off campus and heard the details that were initially released I would have still gone on to class not thinking it was anything else.

Has that changed for future events on a campus? SURE! Now people will react as if it could be a larger threat. It is just like 9/11. Prior to that passengers would have never tried to take down a hijacker. The odds were better if you did not fight back. Get on a plane today and someone starts acting weird and they will be taken down quickly by several passengers.

I think they said there are 100 buildings on campus?? With the info they had they were looking for someone that fled the area...they are not going to place 100 police officers (that would have to come from every town in 20-30 miles probably) around campus.

People can second guess the campus police and administration on they want. I just do not see how they could have done it differently at that moment. I bet every single person in authority had their hearts sink when they heard there was shooting on the other side of the campus.



I have to agree with this take on the situation.

Red Leader
04-18-2007, 10:39 AM
I have to agree with this take on the situation.

Me too. Well said, Team Dunn.

TeamDunn
04-18-2007, 01:19 PM
Here is a link to a page the NY Times has set up showing the victims and a little about them.

http://www.nytimes.com/ref/us/20070418_VICTIMS_GRAPHIC.html

macro
04-18-2007, 01:31 PM
The Washington Nationals wore Virginia Tech caps in last night's game...

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20070418/i/r2877489024.jpg

registerthis
04-18-2007, 01:34 PM
Owning a firearm isn't an absolute right in this country, it's a privilege. And one that I feel should be reserved for those possessing citizenship within this country.

Like I said earlier, I'd be perfectly OK with *nobody* owning any guns. But unless you can show me that immigrants have a higher propensity for gun violence than U.S. citizens, your policy seems nothing if not discriminatory.

TeamDunn
04-18-2007, 01:37 PM
I heard that on the radio this morning but had not seen any pictures yet. Thanks for posting!

:)

Very nice tribute.


The Washington Nationals wore Virginia Tech caps in last night's game...

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20070418/i/r2877489024.jpg

Ltlabner
04-18-2007, 03:52 PM
People can second guess the campus police and administration on they want. I just do not see how they could have done it differently at that moment. I bet every single person in authority had their hearts sink when they heard there was shooting on the other side of the campus.

And it's not like there's been a string of slaughters at collages around the country so the police had standing protocols and procedures so they instantly spring into action. They handled it according to the facts as the facts became clear.

And the "lockdown" idea is a farce. The vast size of the campus combined with the number of buildings and amount of people involved makes it impossible for a police force of the VTPD size to lock down anything other than maybe a few buildings are a very small area.

WMR
04-18-2007, 04:11 PM
Like I said earlier, I'd be perfectly OK with *nobody* owning any guns. But unless you can show me that immigrants have a higher propensity for gun violence than U.S. citizens, your policy seems nothing if not discriminatory.

I'm fine with immigrants owning guns.

Non-citizens on the other hand, I've got a problem with that.

For the reasons stated in my previous posts.

You can't prove a negative absolutely. You can, however, know what you can't reasonably know.

redsfanva
04-18-2007, 04:24 PM
Does anyone know if the local media ran with the story of the first shooting? Around here the media has police scanners and in some cases have arrived at shooting sites before the police or paramedics. Were the radio stations and news stations not talking about the first shooting that morning?



The local tv news media, WDBJ7 and WSLS10, did not begin any type of coverage or break into programing until right before 10am on Monday morning, after the 2nd shooting. I became aware that there was the first shooting around 945 after one of my friends who lives on campus, started going over there and found out that part of campus was closed because of the first shooting at AJ Hall.

TeamDunn
04-18-2007, 04:56 PM
Thanks, Redsfanva...

Looks like "this" is what he did in the two hours before the second shooting....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776/from/ET/


Gunman contacted NBC News during massacre

Sometime after he killed two people in a dormitory but before he slaughtered 30 more in a classroom building Monday morning, Cho Seung-Hui sent NBC News a rambling communication and videos about his grievances, the network said Wednesday.

Network officials turned the material over to the FBI and said they would not immediately disclose its contents pending the agency’s review beyond characterizing the material as “disturbing.” It included a written communication, photographs and video.

The network said it would release a statement shortly.

Cho, 23, a senior English major at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University, killed 32 people in two separate attacks Monday before taking his own life.

TeamCasey
04-18-2007, 04:56 PM
This is not an immigration problem, nor a gun control issue.


I absolutely disagree with you that this isn't a gun control issue! It sure is a case for gun control but that will never change in this country.

paintmered
04-18-2007, 04:58 PM
I absolutely disagree with you that this isn't a gun control issue! It sure is a case for gun control but that will never change in this country.

That's a discussion for another board.

TeamCasey
04-18-2007, 05:01 PM
That's a discussion for another board.

I didn't bring it up .... but you're right. I imagine this thread will head there soon.

To ignore it is to not see the elephant in the room.

paintmered
04-18-2007, 05:03 PM
I didn't bring it up .... but you're right. I imagine this will head there soon.

As long as discussion revolves around the events that occurred, (i.e. news) and doesn't morph into debates about pseudo-related issues (like gun-control), this thread will remain open.

In other words, keep the thread on topic and there's no worries.

registerthis
04-18-2007, 05:15 PM
I'm fine with immigrants owning guns.

Non-citizens on the other hand, I've got a problem with that.

You do realize those two frequently overlap, right? I'm failing to make a distinction between a non-U.S. citizen immigrant and a U.S. citizen who immigrated here. I find your argument about background checks unconvincing, particularly considering the number of handgun crimes committed by U.S. citizens who supposedly passed their background checks without issue. I'm also unaware of any studies which point to non-U.S. citizens having a higher proclivity to using a handgun in a crime.

Therefore, as I previously mentioned, any ban on handguns aimed specifically at non-U.S. citizens seems discriminatory to me. So long as we're going to remain a country armed to the teeth, we might as well be fair about it.


You can, however, know what you can't reasonably know.

You'll have to explain this to me, I'm afraid. What is it I should know that I can't know? Put another way, what should we have known we couldn't have known about the South Korean shooter that would have ostensibly led to preventing him from obtaining a gun?

WMR
04-18-2007, 05:21 PM
You do realize those two frequently overlap, right? I'm failing to make a distinction between a non-U.S. citizen immigrant and a U.S. citizen who immigrated here. I find your argument about background checks unconvincing, particularly considering the number of handgun crimes committed by U.S. citizens who supposedly passed their background checks without issue. I'm also unaware of any studies which point to non-U.S. citizens having a higher proclivity to using a handgun in a crime.

Therefore, as I previously mentioned, any ban on handguns aimed specifically at non-U.S. citizens seems discriminatory to me. So long as we're going to remain a country armed to the teeth, we might as well be fair about it.


You'll have to explain this to me, I'm afraid. What is it I should know that I can't know? Put another way, what should we have known we couldn't have known about the South Korean shooter that would have ostensibly led to preventing him from obtaining a gun?



Immigrants, generally, have a much shorter "track record" in regards to how much is known about their background and what they have been involved with in the past.

Many foreign police forces operate with little national centralization. Once an immigrant becomes a U.S. citizen, the "carrot" of gun ownership has been earned and should be made available to them if they so desire.

Somebody born in the U.S. can be a killer just as easily as a foreign immigrant, but I'd feel safer if those people permitted to purchase and own firearms are 'tied' to the utmost to our country and hopefully have established a lengthy track record of functioning as a law abiding citizen in American society.

At least with the groups you mention we can perform a background check. South Korea might have excellent record-keeping and reporting policies, but what about an immigrant from an emerging 3rd world country where widespread computerization of national public records is seriously lacking or non-existent?

registerthis
04-18-2007, 05:56 PM
At least with the groups you mention we can perform a background check. South Korea might have excellent record-keeping and reporting policies, but what about an immigrant from an emerging 3rd world country where widespread computerization of national public records is seriously lacking or non-existent?

What, exactly, do you think is examined during these background checks?

Whatever it is, they're evidently failing at their job considering the number of handgun crimes committed by citizens who are "tied" to this country, as you put it, who have passed their background checks.

Aside from your own fears and suspicions, I haven't seen any tangible evidence that points to the fact that depriving non-citizens of guns make sthis country any safer or better.

BRM
04-18-2007, 05:58 PM
What, exactly, do you think is examined during these background checks?

Whatever it is, they're evidently failing at their job considering the number of handgun crimes committed by citizens who are "tied" to this country, as you put it, who have passed their background checks.

Aside from your own fears and suspicions, I haven't seen any tangible evidence that points to the fact that depriving non-citizens of guns make sthis country any safer or better.

I'm pretty sure all that is checked is if the prospective buyer has a criminal record. Is there more to it than that?

vaticanplum
04-18-2007, 08:23 PM
My only question is that when the school discovered the first two shootings, which were around 7:15 AM or so, why they didn't take better precautions based on what they did know, not what they didn't.... two people were shot, the shooter was still loose somewhere. It doesn't matter what they were being told or assumed. They have a responsibility to that campus and those students/faculty present. Not second guess. Not in these situations.

I'm not saying they "lock down" the campus. That is almost an impossibility. But they could have had the police/SWAT teams in there as soon as possible, providing surveillance, setting up checkpoints, or at least guarding/monitoring entrances to several of the main buildings/classrooms on campus. For crying out loud, make an effort to provide some sort of security/safeguards until you know more.

If this guy had walked back to his dorm to do whatever, do you think he would have, some two hours later, been able to walk into that other building if there were trained (and armed) police patrolling the campus and/or set up at some of the entrances?

The more I delve into this situation I realize it would have been almost impossible to stop the initial shooting. But that should have been enough of a warning to these administrators to act more decisively. Even if they went somewhat overboard in their actions to secure the campus, it would have been justified and at least understood by the masses (and parents) due to what just transpired. I'd rather be condemned for doing too much then too little in these types of situations.

I cannot believe what I'm about to say, but I agree with GAC here :help:

Let me be clear that I do not in any way blame campus authorities for what happened, and I'm also a firm believer in not second-guessing life too much (what's done is done, revenge is futile, this situation happened the way it was meant to, etc.) I also know that we do not have details on the entire situation yet -- probably not even close.

However, I will say that from what we know at this point, I do believe it was very questionable judgment to wait two hours to send an e-mail out to campus. It is a huge campus, yes; but it would perhaps have been pertinent to send an e-mail to that dorm alone at the very least. Such an e-mail might have sparked something in someone nearby, caused people to notice and report things that they wouldn't in the absence of alarm...any number of little details that might have saved lives. I also find it unfathomable that campus police would attempt to handle a double murder on their own without immediately calling local police. From what I understand, this dorm was close to the edge of campus; for all they knew it could have been a non-VT person who committed the murder, and the VT security forces were, in my opinion, obligated to call the police not only for the safety of the campus but for the potential safety of the community.

They did not think they had the murderer in custody. They could not even have known for certain after two hours if it was a murder-suicide. Thus, a murderer was at large, and people should have known about it. I know that there is a fine line between informing and inciting panic sometimes, but trained professionals should know of ways to do this as best they can, for the most basic purpose of putting people on alert.

Again, I do NOT say this to chastise VT for their handling of the situation in the sense that this person was crazy, this person is responsible for the deaths, and there's nothing we can do about the past. But things WILL be handled differently in the future, at colleges everywhere, because of the way they chose to handle the situation. And that's as it should be in my opinion.

GAC
04-18-2007, 08:28 PM
I cannot believe what I'm about to say, but I agree with GAC here :help:

What? You're saying you can't ever agree with me? I agree with you on issues. :mooner:

GAC
04-18-2007, 08:28 PM
They don't need to outlaw guns. Just charge $5,000 per bullet. :mooner:

GAC
04-18-2007, 08:32 PM
Of course the campus police responded. It's their jurisdiction.

I agree. But when a murder and/or shooting is committed are they really properly trained for that? Shouldn't outside law enforcement, who are far better equipped, then be called in?

We have secuirty here at the plant. But these security officers are only trained to handle situations to a degree. We've had far serious incodents here where local law enforcement had to be called in and assist.

vaticanplum
04-18-2007, 08:34 PM
I'm a little confused as to why this nut job keeps being referred to as Korean, actually. The kid had been here since he was eight years old. While not a US citizen (and seriously, I'm not even going to get into that...registerthis is speaking for me anyway), he was, for all intents and purposes, American. He spent most of his life here, he was educated in American schools, and no information that has come out so far related to his life betrays any overt "Korean influence", if you will...no references in his writing, no evidence of his belonging to any Korean-based groups. He was an English major, for crying out loud. No one has called him a Virginian, even though in terms of time and probably influence he was more Virginian than Korean. If a white person had committed the same crime and it turned out that he had emigrated from Vienna at the age of 8, I don't think the media would be referring to him as an Austrian.

Mental illness is one thing that doesn't discriminate, I guess.

GAC
04-18-2007, 08:43 PM
I absolutely disagree with you that this isn't a gun control issue! It sure is a case for gun control but that will never change in this country.

Taking away guns from law abiding citizens is not gonna stop criminals or deranged people from getting them. Many years ago, and I know it's just as true today, I knew several "acquaintences" that made their living solely from dealing in selling guns and armament illegally. I've been in some houses where it would amaze you what was there and readily available. If they didn't have what you want, then they could get it.

If a person, like this nutcase, wanted a gun, then he could easily get one without having to walk down to the local gun shop and do so legally.

Gun control does not make it any harder to acquire guns if one is really intent on doing something like this.

And I say that as one who has never owned a gun, and never will.

We already have gun control legislation now. Is it working?

Chip R
04-18-2007, 09:58 PM
I cannot believe what I'm about to say, but I agree with GAC here :help:



Cats and dogs, living together!

paintmered
04-18-2007, 10:06 PM
I agree. But when a murder and/or shooting is committed are they really properly trained for that? Shouldn't outside law enforcement, who are far better equipped, then be called in?

Blacksburg isn't much bigger than Bellfontaine. The closest city is Roanoke, nearly an hour drive away through the mountains. How well would your town be able to respond to such a situation?

I assume the campus police was trained to deal with murder cases. That's what they thought they had on their hands. By the time they knew what was really going on, their remote location probably delayed those specially equipped forces from arriving.

vaticanplum
04-18-2007, 10:10 PM
Blacksburg isn't much bigger than Bellfontaine. The closest city is Roanoke, nearly an hour drive away through the mountains.

How well would your town be able to respond to such a situation?

They probably could not have stopped him. But it serves no purpose for them NOT to be informed.

When there's a gunman at large, you tell people so they can be alert. That's all there is to it. The Blacksburg police may not be the A-Team, but surely they are trained in the proper procedures of alerting the community to the fact that an armed murderer may be running around. College campuses are not oasises, and again, my understanding is that this particular dorm is on the edge of campus (not that it would make a difference if it weren't).

paintmered
04-18-2007, 10:12 PM
They probably could not have stopped him. But it serves no purpose for them NOT to be informed.

When there's a gunman at large, you tell people so they can be alert. That's all there is to it. The Blacksburg police may not be the A-Team, but surely they are trained in the proper procedures of alerting the community to the fact that an armed murderer may be running around.

But that's the problem. They didn't know the gunman was still on the loose because they pursued a bad tip and apprehended the wrong suspect. In their mind, there was nothing to alert to the surrounding community because the thread was neutralized. Only when the second round of attacks happened did they realize they had the wrong guy.

It's very easy to view this in hindsight.

vaticanplum
04-18-2007, 10:18 PM
But that's the problem. They didn't know the gunman was still on the loose because they pursued a bad tip.

It's very easy to view this in hindsight.

I agree, and again, in the heat of the moment, they made the decisions that they thought were right, and so in a sense they were the right decisions at the time. I certainly doubt that the VT police had anything but the best intentions in mind.

I still think that their decisions, in full hindsight, will be made differently in the future, and I certainly think it's the correct decision to notify the local police as soon as a murder occurs (among other things such as making the community more alert). Even if you think you have the situation "under control", even if you think the gunman is in custody or dead. You say that the campus police were probably trained to deal with murders; well, so are the local police, and small town though Blacksburg may be, I'm guessing they also have more experience with it.

In a true emergency like this, I just believe that alerting as many people as you can even just to the fact that it's going on is crucial. Secrecy in this case didn't seem to serve much purpose.

paintmered
04-18-2007, 10:21 PM
In a true emergency like this, I just believe that alerting as many people as you can even just to the fact that it's going on is crucial. Secrecy in this case didn't seem to serve much purpose.

I doubt their motivation was to keep it secret. I just think they didn't see it as a priority at the time to alert the community.

I would be shocked if Blacksburg police weren't asked to respond. Campus police departments usually work closely with the local police.

George Foster
04-18-2007, 10:22 PM
They probably could not have stopped him. But it serves no purpose for them NOT to be informed.

When there's a gunman at large, you tell people so they can be alert. That's all there is to it. The Blacksburg police may not be the A-Team, but surely they are trained in the proper procedures of alerting the community to the fact that an armed murderer may be running around. College campuses are not oasises, and again, my understanding is that this particular dorm is on the edge of campus (not that it would make a difference if it weren't).

I mentioned this on another thread. What is the difference between a murder on campus and a murder at the Waffle House in Blacksburg? I'm sure people are killed on a regular basis in Blacksburg, like most towns. The campus is not locked down and the students are not notified. The Waffle House is closer to some parts of campus than the dorm room where the first murders occured. A armed murderer is "at large" in both circumstances.

The campus is so large and is the University is meshed in the middle of Blacksburg, it's just a no win situation. What happened on Monday, does not happen. Someone that commits murder, usually is on the run. They don't wait 2 hours and then go and kill 31 other people. How do you notify 10,000 employees coming to campus and 14,000 off campus students 30 minutes before classes start? No win situation.

vaticanplum
04-18-2007, 10:22 PM
I doubt their motivation was to keep it secret. I just think they didn't see it as a priority at the time to alert the community.

I would be shocked if Blacksburg police weren't asked to respond immediately. Campus police departments usually work closely with the local police.

Well, maybe my facts are wrong, because that's one of the points that's been sticking out to me...I thought they didn't call the police until 9:30?

vaticanplum
04-18-2007, 10:25 PM
The campus is so large and is the University is meshed in the middle of Blacksburg, it's just a no win situation. What happened on Monday, does not happen. Someone that commits murder, usually is on the run. They don't wait 2 hours and then go and kill 31 other people. How do you notify 10,000 employees coming to campus and 14,000 of campus students 30 minutes before classes start? No win situation.

Dude, if someone on my campus took the walk of shame at 7 am and was seen by one person, the news was all over campus in five minutes flat. And this was pre-cell phones, blackberries and TVs in every student building.

paintmered
04-18-2007, 10:28 PM
Well, maybe my facts are wrong, because that's one of the points that's been sticking out to me...I thought they didn't call the police until 9:30?

If they didn't call outside agencies until 9:30, they obviously felt there was no longer a threat until the second round of shootings occurred.

In hindsight, they made tragically wrong assumptions. But it's only because this was such a unique and unparalleled situation that their assumptions were wrong. And it's unfortunate because the local authorities will face plenty of blame (and lawsuits).

pedro
04-18-2007, 10:28 PM
People like to say that gun control won't help but unless you are already a connected criminal, which this kid was not, where are you going to go to get a black market gun? Honestly, I wouldn't have the first clue as to where to obtain black market guns & ammo. I'm sure it isn't hard for people who are already criminals and know other criminals but I just have a hard time believing it's that easy to get a gun if you don't already know someone. It's not like scoring beer in high school where you'd just stand outside the 7-11.

pedro
04-18-2007, 10:29 PM
Dude, if someone on my campus took the walk of shame at 7 am and was seen by one person, the news was all over campus in five minutes flat. And this was pre-cell phones, blackberries and TVs in every student building.

how big of a school did you go too?

George Foster
04-18-2007, 10:33 PM
Hey, I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but how do you feel about NBC/MSNBC airing the ramblings of a mad man? I thought it was one of the most irresponsible things ever aired on TV.

There is a reason why you never see someone run out on the playing field of a baseball game or football game. The networks have made a decision not to show them running around because they (the networks) know that is what the idiot wants....to get on TV and they won't give him the satisfaction. This has lead to very few cases of this happening a year.

What is stoping another mad man from doing the same thing as what happened on Monday at Virgina Tech? He knows now he will get his taped aired on the nightly news, and played on youtube. Irresponsible does not even describe it. Just my opinion.

vaticanplum
04-18-2007, 10:36 PM
how big of a school did you go too?

Much smaller than VT. I was really just making a point that of all reasons that they did not let people know in a more timely fashion, the excuse that they couldn't due to communication factors is a flimsy one in this day and age.


In hindsight, they made tragically wrong assumptions. But it's only because this was such a unique and unparalleled situation that their assumptions were wrong. And it's unfortunate because the local authorities will face plenty of blame (and lawsuits).

I agree with everything you say in this paragraph, until you get to the last sentence. I hope that people do not let this possibility get in the way of a fair look at the way they handled things because of the fear of lawsuits. If there were lapses in judgment, it's not unfortunate because they may get blamed or sued, it's unfortunate because people died. And it's important to thoroughly examine the decisions they made, again, not for the purpose of blaming them, but for the purpose of schools making better decisions in the future. Because tragically we all know now that it CAN happen, and could happen again. What they dealt with was unprecedented. Now there's a precedent. We have to use it well.

George Foster
04-18-2007, 10:38 PM
Much smaller than VT. I was really just making a point that of all reasons that they did not let people know in a more timely fashion, the excuse that they couldn't due to communication factors is a flimsy one in this day and age.



I agree with everything you say in this paragraph, until you get to the last sentence. I hope that people do not let this possibility get in the way of a fair look at the way they handled things because of the fear of lawsuits. If there were lapses in judgment, it's not unfortunate because they may get blamed or sued, it's unfortunate because people died. And it's important to thoroughly examine the decisions they made, again, not for the purpose of blaming them, but for the purpose of schools making better decisions in the future. Because tragically we all know now that it CAN happen, and could happen again. What they dealt with was unprecedented. Now there's a precedent. We have to use it well.

Very good post!

paintmered
04-18-2007, 10:48 PM
Very good post!

Agreed.

I just meant that it is unfortunate because since the shooter is dead, the questions we ask towards the authorities are now different since we can't seek answers from him.

So instead of "How can this be prevented in the future?", the question has become, "What did local authorities fail to do that allowed this to happen?" Regardless, both need to be answered. But in everyone's heightened emotional state, we want the answer to the second question to lead us to the answer of the first. I think that's the incorrect order, and one that deflects blame from the shooter to Virginia Tech.

Honestly, if the shooter were still alive, I don't think we have this discussion.

TeamDunn
04-18-2007, 11:44 PM
I am still disturbed by what I watched this evening. I wanted to see it, I wanted to find a reason why he did this. I have no sympathy for what he did and am not defending him in the least...but it is sad that his mental illness slipped through so many cracks.

I don't know what airing it will do...I hope it does not cause any copycats. It is just scary.

His words, his looks, they turned my blood cold on the spot. :(


Hey, I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but how do you feel about NBC/MSNBC airing the ramblings of a mad man? I thought it was one of the most irresponsible things ever aired on TV.

There is a reason why you never see someone run out on the playing field of a baseball game or football game. The networks have made a decision not to show them running around because they (the networks) know that is what the idiot wants....to get on TV and they won't give him the satisfaction. This has lead to very few cases of this happening a year.

What is stoping another mad man from doing the same thing as what happened on Monday at Virgina Tech? He knows now he will get his taped aired on the nightly news, and played on youtube. Irresponsible does not even describe it. Just my opinion.

FoReel
04-19-2007, 12:23 AM
Hey, I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but how do you feel about NBC/MSNBC airing the ramblings of a mad man? I thought it was one of the most irresponsible things ever aired on TV.

There is a reason why you never see someone run out on the playing field of a baseball game or football game. The networks have made a decision not to show them running around because they (the networks) know that is what the idiot wants....to get on TV and they won't give him the satisfaction. This has lead to very few cases of this happening a year.

What is stoping another mad man from doing the same thing as what happened on Monday at Virgina Tech? He knows now he will get his taped aired on the nightly news, and played on youtube. Irresponsible does not even describe it. Just my opinion.

Is it irresponsible or just plain out greed?

RFS62
04-19-2007, 06:50 AM
Is it irresponsible or just plain out greed?


Greed. The same thing that got us 24/7 coverage of the search for Anna Nichole's babys father.

TeamCasey
04-19-2007, 07:34 AM
nm

TeamCasey
04-19-2007, 07:36 AM
Taking away guns from law abiding citizens is not gonna stop criminals or deranged people from getting them. Many years ago, and I know it's just as true today, I knew several "acquaintences" that made their living solely from dealing in selling guns and armament illegally. I've been in some houses where it would amaze you what was there and readily available. If they didn't have what you want, then they could get it.

If a person, like this nutcase, wanted a gun, then he could easily get one without having to walk down to the local gun shop and do so legally.

Gun control does not make it any harder to acquire guns if one is really intent on doing something like this.

And I say that as one who has never owned a gun, and never will.

We already have gun control legislation now. Is it working?

I'm not permitted to respond to this "pseudo-related" elephant in the room.

We'll have to duke it out over a cold beverage this weekend.

TeamCasey
04-19-2007, 07:43 AM
Hey, I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but how do you feel about NBC/MSNBC airing the ramblings of a mad man? I thought it was one of the most irresponsible things ever aired on TV.

There is a reason why you never see someone run out on the playing field of a baseball game or football game. The networks have made a decision not to show them running around because they (the networks) know that is what the idiot wants....to get on TV and they won't give him the satisfaction. This has lead to very few cases of this happening a year.

What is stoping another mad man from doing the same thing as what happened on Monday at Virgina Tech? He knows now he will get his taped aired on the nightly news, and played on youtube. Irresponsible does not even describe it. Just my opinion.


I understand what you're saying but I also want to try to make sense of it all. I do want to read/see it. It's not because of some perverse voyeurism. These things happen and you sit back and ask why a thousand times.

GAC
04-19-2007, 09:17 AM
People like to say that gun control won't help but unless you are already a connected criminal, which this kid was not, where are you going to go to get a black market gun? Honestly, I wouldn't have the first clue as to where to obtain black market guns & ammo. I'm sure it isn't hard for people who are already criminals and know other criminals but I just have a hard time believing it's that easy to get a gun if you don't already know someone. It's not like scoring beer in high school where you'd just stand outside the 7-11.

It's not hard for those who are not criminals either pedro. Believe me. If you really want to buy a gun "under the table" or via the black market, you can do it very easily. You might (unknowingly) have a friend of a friend who could help you get a gun because he might know someone or a contact. They are just not gonna advertise it until someone possibly inquires. One can go to a nightclub, bar, or various other public venues, and discreetly put the word out in a casual conversation that you're looking to obtain a gun, and sooner or later you will score.

It is no different if someone wanted to score some pot or other types of drugs. You don't necessarily have to hang out with or associate with those that sell it. You discreetly get the word out and you will be approached to make that one time buy.

I don't associate or hang around with any of the above types. But I know guys at work that do and/or are involved in such activities. If I wanted it bad enough I could approach them, no questions asked, and get what I needed.

Prohibition didn't work with alcohol, and it won't work with guns either. Just make those within the black market, who are already making handsome profits, even more profitable. And they are not making it simply off of other criminals.

What we need in this country is a better centralized (computerized) background checking system, and possibly some tougher regulations as to who can/can't buy a gun.

GAC
04-19-2007, 09:30 AM
Blacksburg isn't much bigger than Bellfontaine.

Hey! We have a pretty nice size city police force here in Bellefontaine. As well as the local county Sheriff and State Highway Patrol branch. ;)

I understand where you're coming from paint. All I am saying is that this college administration should have erred on the side of caution knowing very little that they did, and the fact that two people were shot dead. Did they even think of taking what campus police they had, regardless of what the numbers were - they just had a double murder - and do the best they could to set up a guard/surveillance of a few of the widely used buildings/classrooms entrances, just as a precaution? No they didn't. When did they even contact any outside enforcement agencies? Just having a few extra armed police walking a beat around the place, whether it was Sheriff Deputies and/or State Troopers, may have prevented this. until they had more facts on this? If they could have only gotten 10 law enforcement The closest city is Roanoke, nearly an hour drive away through the mountains.


How well would your town be able to respond to such a situation?

Knowing Bellefontaine, as well as numerous city police officers and sheriff deputies, there would have been a coordinated/joint effort by both, as well as some state troopers there, if something like this had happened at a school around here. The three agencies work/communicate very well together.

rdiersin
04-19-2007, 10:14 AM
Agreed.

I just meant that it is unfortunate because since the shooter is dead, the questions we ask towards the authorities are now different since we can't seek answers from him.

So instead of "How can this be prevented in the future?", the question has become, "What did local authorities fail to do that allowed this to happen?" Regardless, both need to be answered. But in everyone's heightened emotional state, we want the answer to the second question to lead us to the answer of the first. I think that's the incorrect order, and one that deflects blame from the shooter to Virginia Tech.

Honestly, if the shooter were still alive, I don't think we have this discussion.

The other part of it is, even if the university locks the buildings on the campus, there's still a possibility this would have been a tragic event, maybe less so, but still possible. How many students check their email before going to class? I don't remember checking mine that often before my first morning classes. The students I see to this day don't seem as if they do either. They get up, sometimes shower, go to class. Virginia Tech could have done phone messages to dorm students I guess, but it being a large school, one can reasonably guess that they have a large section of students living off campus. This message probably wouldn't reach them. All in all, I would guess that there would still be plenty of people around campus, giving Cho targets. Just in a different way.

Razor Shines
04-19-2007, 10:32 AM
I'm not real excited about them showing this kid's tapes. I think they should be talking more about Librescu, who saved the lives of all the students in his class room. I know he's been mentioned in this thread, I just think that he should get more air time than this murderer.

I was listening to a radio program this morning and a woman said that she told her sons that she would be very disapointed in them if they had jumped out the window, while Librescu blocked the door. She said that she told her sons that if they had been there she would have wanted them to help the him block the door or save him. And surprisingly a lot of the callers agreed with her, saying that the men in the class room should not have run, while Librescu died. I was just wondering what the thought on the board was on this issue.

Personally I don't fault any one of those kids for getting out. Librescu ordered them to get out. Most likely any of them that stayed would have also died, when they didn't have to. It's not heroic to needlessly die. What Librescu did was heroic, he probably knew that he was going to die. To me those kids that got out are not cowards, but they have been charged to lead a good life and earn his sacrafice.

Some people believe that if 4 or 5 guys had rushed the killer, they could have stopped him. But it's hard to say what you would do in that situation. The kid had semi-auto weapons, charging him unarmed may not have done anything but give him easier shots. The host of the show said that in a situation like that you really can't fault anyone's actions except the killer's. And I agree.

MrCinatit
04-19-2007, 11:08 AM
Some people believe that if 4 or 5 guys had rushed the killer, they could have stopped him. But it's hard to say what you would do in that situation. The kid had semi-auto weapons, charging him unarmed may not have done anything but give him easier shots. The host of the show said that in a situation like that you really can't fault anyone's actions except the killer's. And I agree.

I've heard that argument, as well, and I agree that it would not have been that easy.
From the sounds of it, he was popping in and out of the classrooms rather quickly, aiming with precision - cold and calculating. Unfortunately, they would not have had the chance.
I've also heard the argument that those in the rooms next to where the shootings were being done, students in there should have banded together and rushed him. Only problem is, how did the students in the other rooms know there was only one person?
It is easy for us many miles away to look back on a series of events as they are slowly laid out in front of us - but few of us know exactly how we would react if faced with the same situation.

pedro
04-19-2007, 11:09 AM
It's not hard for those who are not criminals either pedro. Believe me. If you really want to buy a gun "under the table" or via the black market, you can do it very easily. You might (unknowingly) have a friend of a friend who could help you get a gun because he might know someone or a contact. They are just not gonna advertise it until someone possibly inquires. One can go to a nightclub, bar, or various other public venues, and discreetly put the word out in a casual conversation that you're looking to obtain a gun, and sooner or later you will score.

It is no different if someone wanted to score some pot or other types of drugs. You don't necessarily have to hang out with or associate with those that sell it. You discreetly get the word out and you will be approached to make that one time buy.

I don't associate or hang around with any of the above types. But I know guys at work that do and/or are involved in such activities. If I wanted it bad enough I could approach them, no questions asked, and get what I needed.

Prohibition didn't work with alcohol, and it won't work with guns either. Just make those within the black market, who are already making handsome profits, even more profitable. And they are not making it simply off of other criminals.

What we need in this country is a better centralized (computerized) background checking system, and possibly some tougher regulations as to who can/can't buy a gun.

Perhaps, but I would have preferred that he would have he would have had to go through illegal channels to obtain an automatic weapon. Certainly that would have been more difficult than the manner in which he did obtain the guns and oddly enough, as easily available as guns are, no one on campus Monday seemed to have one with which to protect themselves.

Chip R
04-19-2007, 11:11 AM
Looks like the kids who were killed will receive posthumous degrees from VA Tech.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070419/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting

dabvu2498
04-19-2007, 11:15 AM
oddly enough, as easily available as guns are, no one on campus Monday seemed to have one with which to protect themselves.

That's because VPI is a "gun-free" campus.

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=11306

Yachtzee
04-19-2007, 11:38 AM
I'm not real excited about them showing this kid's tapes. I think they should be talking more about Librescu, who saved the lives of all the students in his class room. I know he's been mentioned in this thread, I just think that he should get more air time than this murderer.

I was listening to a radio program this morning and a woman said that she told her sons that she would be very disapointed in them if they had jumped out the window, while Librescu blocked the door. She said that she told her sons that if they had been there she would have wanted them to help the him block the door or save him. And surprisingly a lot of the callers agreed with her, saying that the men in the class room should not have run, while Librescu died. I was just wondering what the thought on the board was on this issue.

Personally I don't fault any one of those kids for getting out. Librescu ordered them to get out. Most likely any of them that stayed would have also died, when they didn't have to. It's not heroic to needlessly die. What Librescu did was heroic, he probably knew that he was going to die. To me those kids that got out are not cowards, but they have been charged to lead a good life and earn his sacrafice.

Some people believe that if 4 or 5 guys had rushed the killer, they could have stopped him. But it's hard to say what you would do in that situation. The kid had semi-auto weapons, charging him unarmed may not have done anything but give him easier shots. The host of the show said that in a situation like that you really can't fault anyone's actions except the killer's. And I agree.

I think Librescu knew what he was doing and wanted as many kids to get out as possible. I'm around the same age of the German professor who died and once had a notion of becoming a German professor myself. I've taught at a tech school too, so I've actually been thinking of what I would do in that situation ever since the incident occurred. If I were in Librescu's position, my goal would have been to get as many of those students out of harms way as fast as possible. When your a teacher, you can't help but think about the potential of your students to truly accomplish something, to be somebody great. Of course I also wonder if I would have been frozen by shock, unable to do anything. It truly is amazing when someone thinks and acts quickly enough to save the lives of others.

rdiersin
04-19-2007, 11:42 AM
I think Librescu knew what he was doing and wanted as many kids to get out as possible. I'm around the same age of the German professor who died and once had a notion of becoming a German professor myself. I've taught at a tech school too, so I've actually been thinking of what I would do in that situation ever since the incident occurred. If I were in Librescu's position, my goal would have been to get as many of those students out of harms way as fast as possible. When your a teacher, you can't help but think about the potential of your students to truly accomplish something, to be somebody great. Of course I also wonder if I would have been frozen by shock, unable to do anything. It truly is amazing when someone thinks and acts quickly enough to save the lives of others.


I have been the same way, wondering what I would do in a similar situation. You never really know. If I were in the middle of a class and someone walks in I would be kind of disoriented anyway, but with a gun, there is no telling what amount of shock you would have. It makes me remember a professor I had who would lock the doors to the class when he started lecture so that late students wouldn't disrupt the students already there. Me thinks that plan looks better and better in some ways.

pedro
04-19-2007, 11:52 AM
That's because VPI is a "gun-free" campus.

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=11306

as it should be.

flyer85
04-19-2007, 11:56 AM
That's because VPI is a "gun-free" campus.... somebody forgot to tell Cho.

dabvu2498
04-19-2007, 12:17 PM
as it should be.


... somebody forgot to tell Cho.

Thus, my point.

Gun control does not equal crime prevention.

I'd guess this discussion has gotten way too political for the mods' tastes, so I'll let it go.

pedro
04-19-2007, 12:32 PM
Thus, my point.

Gun control does not equal crime prevention.

I'd guess this discussion has gotten way too political for the mods' tastes, so I'll let it go.

Unfortunately we'll never know in this case as Cho bought his automatic weapons legally. It's entirely possible IMO that with his apparent social skills that he would not have been able to acquire them on the black market as easily GAC suggests.

flyer85
04-19-2007, 12:44 PM
Unfortunately we'll never know in this case as Cho bought his automatic weapons legally. It's entirely possible IMO that with his apparent social skills that he would not have been able to acquire them on the black market as easily GAC suggests.Nor will one know that if professors were allowed to carry firearms on campus one might have shot the offender as things were getting started.

Not endorsing anything here, just playing "what if".

pedro
04-19-2007, 12:46 PM
Nor will one know that if professors were allowed to carry firearms on campus one might have shot the offender as things were getting started.

Not endorsing anything here, just playing "what if".

It'd certainly help control those unruly 6 year olds. ;)

registerthis
04-19-2007, 12:53 PM
Thus, my point.

Gun control does not equal crime prevention.

That's your evidence?

What about all of the crimes that occur in places where guns are legal--are people just not properly arming themselves?

flyer85
04-19-2007, 12:56 PM
The real issues would seem to be
1) What to do about the evil that lurks in the hearts of men?
2) What should colleges do about students who display disturbing and threatening behavior?

Interesting op-ed piece in the New York Times about this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/19/opinion/19oakley.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

In the end we will find there are no easy answers for what happened or simple solutions to stop it. This is a human tragedy of incalculable measure, there are costs that come with living in a free society.

savafan
04-19-2007, 01:32 PM
http://detroittigertales.blogspot.com/2007/04/sad-day-for-our-community.html

Wow, I knew him from posting on Tigers message boards. I hadn't made the connection until now. This makes it all that more personal for me suddenly.

Yachtzee
04-19-2007, 01:34 PM
The real issues would seem to be
1) What to do about the evil that lurks in the hearts of men?
2) What should colleges do about students who display disturbing and threatening behavior?

Interesting op-ed piece in the New York Times about this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/19/opinion/19oakley.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

In the end we will find there are no easy answers for what happened or simple solutions to stop it. This is a human tragedy of incalculable measure, there are costs that come with living in a free society.

That's how I see it. This is the crux of the issue, far more than gun control. In these days of homemade bombs and incendiary devices, it seems that evil will find a way to destroy, regardless of the means used. The problem with stopping acts like this is being able to identify those who seek to do evil and prevent them from doing so without infringing on the rights of people who are merely eccentric.

pedro
04-19-2007, 01:41 PM
It is quite obvious from the "package" this young man sent to NBC that he was rather disturbed and very determined which as noted is truly the crux of the problem. Not sure how to address that.

Chip R
04-19-2007, 01:59 PM
That's how I see it. This is the crux of the issue, far more than gun control. In these days of homemade bombs and incendiary devices, it seems that evil will find a way to destroy, regardless of the means used. The problem with stopping acts like this is being able to identify those who seek to do evil and prevent them from doing so without infringing on the rights of people who are merely eccentric.


I think that's right. It seems like this guy wouldn't have let anything stand in the way of doing this. I don't think some law saying you can't own guns was going to stop him. He was going to get them one way or another. He didn't care about breaking some law. He was going to break the ultimate law 32 times over and then kill himself. Not sure how passing a law is going to stop that.

You go back to 9/11. You think those terrorists were concerned that hijacking was a crime? I don't think they were going to say, "Well, gosh, we would sure like to drive a jumbo jet into the WTC, killing not only ourselves but many innocent people, but since there's a law against hijacking, we aren't going to do it."

TeamDunn
04-19-2007, 04:03 PM
This will make things so much better.... :rolleyes:

http://www.centralmediaserver.com/WCPO/news/2007/04/19/noon/chograffitib-1.jpg


Apr 19, 2007 3:41 PM

Second Graffiti Display Found In Green Twp.
Posted By: Bill Price

RELATED IMAGES

Click for larger images


Graffiti in Township
(WCPO/WCPO.com)

Update at 3:07 p.m. Thursday:

A second graffiti display has been found in Green Township, this one just down the street from the first.

The second display has been found at Lucenna Drive and Linneman Road, which is one block from the original display at Linneman and Julmar Drive.

The second display was also believed to be done overnight, but was in green spray paint and therefore harder to read earlier Thursday.

Stay with 9News at wcpo.com for the latest on this story. Updated at 12:05PM
Green Township Police Chief Bart West tells 9 News that one of his officers first noticed the white graffiti on the street around 5am Thursday morning.

Since the intersection is outside of Cincinnati and in a township area, the Hamilton County Engineer's Office has been called to remove or cover over the white graffiti lettering.

There's no word yet on when that will happen or whether our constant rain will hammer efforts to remove the "Kill Cho Family" graffiti at this busy residential intersection.

RedsBaron
04-19-2007, 04:52 PM
I think Librescu knew what he was doing and wanted as many kids to get out as possible. I'm around the same age of the German professor who died and once had a notion of becoming a German professor myself. I've taught at a tech school too, so I've actually been thinking of what I would do in that situation ever since the incident occurred. If I were in Librescu's position, my goal would have been to get as many of those students out of harms way as fast as possible. When your a teacher, you can't help but think about the potential of your students to truly accomplish something, to be somebody great. Of course I also wonder if I would have been frozen by shock, unable to do anything. It truly is amazing when someone thinks and acts quickly enough to save the lives of others.

I would never criticize someone for failing to act heroically, as it is tough to know how I would have acted myself in such a situation. I would just praise and honor someone such as Librescu who died a true hero's death.

GAC
04-19-2007, 04:53 PM
It is quite obvious from the "package" this young man sent to NBC that he was rather disturbed and very determined which as noted is truly the crux of the problem. Not sure how to address that.

I don't see how you can either when dealing with disturbed individuals like this. When you are not only sick, dut determined, you're going to find a way.

I was listening to the news this morning and they said they guy had a harassment and a stalking charge against this guy as late as 2005. He was taken to a psychiatric hospital on a magistrate's orders and was pronounced a danger to himself. But he was released with orders to undergo outpatient treatment.

When someone is deemed mentally ill by a judge, they should be placed in the computerized data base, like a felon, in which they are not able to legally buy a gun. Other then that, I don't have an answer.

But it seems there were plenty of "warning signs", as more comes out on this guy, that he was a disturbed individual, and that maybe someone should have intervened and seen this guy got help. Even if ordered to. His own parents, at some point in the past, notified the school that he was suicidal.

A few students who even went to high school with him said he was picked on and taunted ...""There were just some people who were really mean to him and they would push him down and laugh at him..... "He didn't speak English really well and they would really make fun of him."

He was totally alienated, not part of the "in" crowd, and you couple that with mental illness, it pushed this kid over the edge.

And even at college there was his twisted, violence-filled writings and menacing, uncommunicative demeanor that had disturbed professors and students so much that he was removed from one English class and was repeatedly urged to get counseling.

I don't say any of that to in anyway justify what this psychopath did; but only that they were pretty obvious warning signs that maybe someone should have intervened before he hurt himself and then possibly others....professors who were alarmed at his bizarre behavior, administrators, etc. They knew there was something wrong with this kid.

This guy has kinda gotten "celebrity status" for what he did, meaning all the media coverage. I'm afraid that there are other disturbed individuals who are watching all this transpire and now want to copy it. That is what is currently bothering me.

Ltlabner
04-19-2007, 05:49 PM
Some people believe that if 4 or 5 guys had rushed the killer, they could have stopped him. But it's hard to say what you would do in that situation. The kid had semi-auto weapons, charging him unarmed may not have done anything but give him easier shots. The host of the show said that in a situation like that you really can't fault anyone's actions except the killer's. And I agree.

Last I read, and it's been a day or two, he was armed with several hand guns. If that news has changed, then ignore the rest of this post.

Handguns, shot guns and rifles sold in the US are "semi-auto" weapons. That is, one pull of the trigger, one bullet expended. You can legally purchase fully automatic weapons but it is difficult, expensive and most local sherifs will not allow it in their jursidictions (at least in Ohio). You don't bebop to your local gun store and pick one out. It's a popular misconception that semi-auto = machine gun.

I only point this out because some folks (not necessarly you Razor) read "semi-auto" weapons and think, "oh, dear he's got a machine gun". Again, assuming news has not come out that he was infact armed with fully automatic weapons, that his hand guns were "semi-automatic" does not necessarly render them any more dangerous.

Unfortuntaley, being in the hands of a mentally unstable psycotic killer, does make them far more dangerous.


Unfortunately we'll never know in this case as Cho bought his automatic weapons legally. It's entirely possible IMO that with his apparent social skills that he would not have been able to acquire them on the black market as easily GAC suggests.

At least according to this story (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776/page/3/) on msnbc he had no "automatic" weapons; that is automatic as in being a fully automatic weapon. (ie. pull the trigger once and bullets keep coming out.)


Authorities had already established that Cho bought one of his weapons, a Glock 9mm handgun, at a gun shop near the university. And they knew that he took delivery of the second, a .22-caliber Walther P-22, at a nearby pawnbroker.

This is mearly a technical detail that offers no solice whatsoever to the victims of the horrable tragedy, but in the interests of being accurate, the weapons in the story referenced above are not fully-automatic weapons.

Razor Shines
04-20-2007, 04:12 AM
Last I read, and it's been a day or two, he was armed with several hand guns. If that news has changed, then ignore the rest of this post.

Handguns, shot guns and rifles sold in the US are "semi-auto" weapons. That is, one pull of the trigger, one bullet expended. You can legally purchase fully automatic weapons but it is difficult, expensive and most local sherifs will not allow it in their jursidictions (at least in Ohio). You don't bebop to your local gun store and pick one out. It's a popular misconception that semi-auto = machine gun.

I only point this out because some folks (not necessarly you Razor) read "semi-auto" weapons and think, "oh, dear he's got a machine gun". Again, assuming news has not come out that he was infact armed with fully automatic weapons, that his hand guns were "semi-automatic" does not necessarly render them any more dangerous.
.

Yeah I know exactly what you mean. The only reason I typed "semi-auto" is because many people have used the phrase "automatic weapon" which is incorrect. I understand what you thought I meant, but my thinking is exactly in line with yours on what people perceive "semi-auto" to mean.

savafan
04-22-2007, 06:18 AM
Cho got his ammo clips off of Ebay, oh, and expect the beginning of a backlash toward violent horror films. "Vacancy" is already getting it now, and this news certainly isn't going to help.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070421/D8OL9JRO0.html

By ADAM GELLER and CHRIS KAHN

BLACKSBURG, Va. (AP) - The Virginia Tech killer went to eBay to buy ammunition clips for one of the types of guns he used in the rampage, a spokesman for the auction site confirmed Saturday.

Using the handle Blazers5505, Seung-Hui Cho bought two 10-round magazines for the Walther P22 - one of two handguns used in the massacre of 32 people. The clips were bought March 22 from a gun shop in Idaho.

"It's apparent that he purchased the empty magazine clips," eBay spokesman Hani Durzy said. "They're similar to what could be purchased in any sporting goods store around the country."

On eBay and affiliated sites, Cho also sold several books with violent themes, tickets to Hokies football games, and a graphics calculator that contained several games.

"The calculator was used for less than one semester then I dropped the class," he wrote.

Cho's eBay feeback rating from other users was superb - 98.5 percent. Only one person gave him a negative rating. The site says the person has had an account since January 2004.

On the eBay-affiliated Web site half.com, several books were listed for sale under the screen name "blazers5505."

They include "Men, Women, and Chainsaws" by Carol J. Clover, a book that explores gender in the modern horror film; the publisher's note reads: "Do the pleasures of horror movies really begin and end in sadism?"

Others include "The Best of H.P. Lovecraft: Bloodcurdling Tales of Horror and the Macabre," by H.P. Lovecraft; and "The Female of the Species: Tales of Mystery and Suspense" by Joyce Carol Oates - a book in which the publisher writes: "In these and other gripping and disturbing tales, women are confronted by the evil around them and surprised by the evil they find within themselves."

Books by those three authors were taught in his Contemporary Horror class, meaning he could have been merely selling the used books at the end of the semester.

Computer forensics have played a major role in the investigation into Cho's motives. Authorities are examining the personal computers found in his dorm room.

Experts say that when the subject of an investigation is a loner like Cho, such records can be a rich source of information.

An examination of a computer is "very revealing, particularly for a person like this," said Mark Rasch of FTI Consulting, a computer and electronic investigation firm. "What we find ... particularly with people who are very uncommunicative in person, is that they may be much more communicative and free to express themselves with the anonymity that computers and the Internet give you."

Andy Koch, Cho's suitemate from 2005-06, said he never saw Cho receive or send a package. He said if a student receives a package from FedEx or UPS, it is usually delivered to the dorm, and a note is left on the door if the student is not home.

Cho's computers likely will hold records of any e-mail communications he had. But they could also show the topics he researched, online purchases he made, his essays and diaries and photos.

Investigators also are seeking his cell phone records on the theory that he may have warned someone about what would become the worst mass shooting in modern U.S. history.

"Seung-Hui Cho is known to have communicated by cellular telephone and may have communicated with others concerning his plans to carry out attacks on students and faculty at Virginia Tech," police wrote Friday in an affidavit seeking records from cellular service provider Verizon Wireless.

A spokesman for Verizon Wireless, Jeffrey Nelson, declined to comment Saturday.