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View Full Version : Baseball Prospectus: Freel to play 3rd, EE trade bait?



mbgrayson
04-16-2007, 03:48 PM
From Monday's Baseball Prospectus weekly "injury update" article by Will Carroll:

"Expect the rumors to start about Edwin Encarnacion (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/pecota/encared01.php) (hey, aren't the Twins looking for a third baseman, with pitching to spare?) but the biggest reason is that Ryan Freel (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/pecota/freelry01.php) is working out at third base, while Josh Hamilton could be taking over in center. Freel is likely to be back in his superutility role by May ... Then again, all those plans could be scuttled if Adam Dunn (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/pecota/dunnad01.php) has more back spasms. Dunn insists they're transient ..."

Full article is HERE (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6108) (subscription only).

Red Leader
04-16-2007, 03:50 PM
Oy vey.

Hoosier Red
04-16-2007, 03:56 PM
THAT'S TAKING 2 + 2 AND GETTING 6.

Ryan Freel is taking more ground balls so he can go back to super sub role.
Josh Hamilton is looking to get more at bats.

Some of those at bats will take place while Freel takes at bats away from
in descending order
1. EE
2. Ken Griffey Jr.
3. Brandon Phillips

Nothing to see here, please move on.

KronoRed
04-16-2007, 04:20 PM
Trading EE so that Freel can play 3rd would be a colossally dumb thing to do.

jesusfan
04-16-2007, 04:23 PM
Yeah, I agree... We need another right handed stick, not another pitcher... wow, how times have changed.. lol

BRM
04-16-2007, 04:23 PM
Trading EE so that Freel can play 3rd would be a colossally dumb thing to do.

I'm not exactly Krivsky's biggest fan but I really can't see him doing that.

paintmered
04-16-2007, 04:26 PM
Trading EE so that Freel can play 3rd would be a colossally dumb thing to do.

That's no understatement. EE is one of this team's assets. Foolhardy doesn't begin to describe trading EE.

Freel is unpredictable at the plate and fragile with extended playing time. He's great in the super-sub role, not as an everyday 3rd baseman. We've tried this experiment before with Freel at third. It's not pretty.

KronoRed
04-16-2007, 04:28 PM
Even the great Dan O saw that Freel wasn't an everyday 3rd baseman when he went out and signed Joe Randa

BRM
04-16-2007, 04:30 PM
Did you just refer to him as the "Great" DanO?

KronoRed
04-16-2007, 04:32 PM
Yes, Great, you can decide for yourself what he was "great" at :D

BRM
04-16-2007, 04:37 PM
Yes, Great, you can decide for yourself what he was "great" at :D

He was definitely good at press conferences. He always gave solid, poignant answers.

paintmered
04-16-2007, 04:38 PM
He was definitely good at press conferences. He always gave solid, poignant answers.

Cue Redsland. ;)

Puffy
04-16-2007, 04:40 PM
I respect Baseball Prospectus and Will Carroll but this is nothing but conjecture.

The_jbh
04-16-2007, 04:44 PM
This is making a connection that i feel is unlikely there. Wayne knows the future at 3B is likely EE. Freel is taking groundballs bc the whole organization knows the future in CF is Hamilton.

Freel will get 1 start a week at 3B 2 to 3 in the OF, and a start at 2B once every 2 weeks.

Red Leader
04-16-2007, 04:46 PM
I respect Baseball Prospectus and Will Carroll but this is nothing but conjecture.

Bonus points for the word 'conjecture.'

Well placed. :clap:

Heath
04-16-2007, 04:49 PM
Bonus points for the word 'conjecture.'

Well placed. :clap:

I didn't know Puffy had them Big Words in his arsenal.

I getting welled-up. Our boy is growing up.

Handofdeath
04-16-2007, 05:24 PM
After I did a little googling I found the words "joyless" and "mercurial" were used to describe EE. I have a feeling that behind the scenes he is much more of a problem than we realize.

REDREAD
04-16-2007, 05:44 PM
Trading EE so that Freel can play 3rd would be a colossally dumb thing to do.

I agree. I thought Wayne was a big fan of defense??

Maybe they'll trade EdE and put Castro at 3b. :laugh:

REDREAD
04-16-2007, 05:46 PM
Well, I hope Wayne gets some good middle relievers for EdE :lol: :lol:

Chip R
04-16-2007, 05:57 PM
Well, I hope Wayne gets some old middle relievers for EdE :lol: :lol:


Fixed that for you. ;)

Puffy
04-16-2007, 05:59 PM
Bonus points for the word 'conjecture.'

Well placed. :clap:

It was on my 'word of the day' toiler paper.

KronoRed
04-16-2007, 06:06 PM
Fixed that for you. ;)

You forget "injured" :evil:

Chip R
04-16-2007, 06:09 PM
You forget "injured" :evil:


:doh:

RedEye
04-16-2007, 06:11 PM
I wonder if Wayne could deal EE for someone like Greinke? I know KC already has two 3B (Gordon and Teahen) but EE could probably also play 1B if they needed him to. Seeing how Greinke has bounced back already, that deal could be an absolute steal for the Reds... although obviously risky.

membengal
04-16-2007, 06:13 PM
I would kill to get Grienke, but no way is he available. If anything KC will be trying to add pitching to him and Meche, not take away from that twosome. The time to get Grienke would have been last year when he was having his anxiety issues.

On top of the fact that they are stacked at 3b, Ryan Shealy is settling in for a stay at 1b.

The move that would have been swell for this team to make, oh, say, last summer? Felipe Lopez to KC to fill in their gaping chasm at SS for, say, Greinke.

Ah well.

MartyFan
04-16-2007, 06:34 PM
What does the ML system look like for SS, 3B and 2B for the reds? Couldn't one of those talents move to 3B as a starter?

If EE brings in a stud pitcher isn't it easier to replace POTENTIAL at 3B?

Is this another case of Reds Fans over-valuing a player again?

Not saying it is or isn't the case but I am curious to hear from those of you who may know more or have an opinion.

Puffy
04-16-2007, 06:53 PM
What does the ML system look like for SS, 3B and 2B for the reds? Couldn't one of those talents move to 3B as a starter?

If EE brings in a stud pitcher isn't it easier to replace POTENTIAL at 3B?

Is this another case of Reds Fans over-valuing a player again?

Not saying it is or isn't the case but I am curious to hear from those of you who may know more or have an opinion.

No, not with the Reds minor League system. There is Bruce, Votto and maybe Stubbs, but position wise thats really it. There are guys with potential like Loo and Valieka (or whatever his name is) but really the Reds are devoid of positional talent in the minors outside of the top three

FlyingPig
04-16-2007, 07:47 PM
EdwinE tanks on a popup so...

They bench him, make him trade bait, give his job to Freel and give Freel a 2 year extension...


Bet you they all run out a popup from now on...


:nono:

gm
04-16-2007, 07:53 PM
After I did a little googling I found the words "joyless" and "mercurial" were used to describe EE. I have a feeling that behind the scenes he is much more of a problem than we realize.

Google "Freel at 3rd base" and the most hits are "spastic" and "weasel";)

Shaggy Sanchez
04-16-2007, 07:59 PM
Do I think that Wayne would move EE in favor of Freel, probably not.
Would I be surprised if I was to hear that Wayne had traded EE for pitching and an old once great defensive 3B, not one bit.

TC81190
04-16-2007, 10:32 PM
After I did a little googling I found the words "joyless" and "mercurial" were used to describe EE. I have a feeling that behind the scenes he is much more of a problem than we realize.

I read that. And that article is saying, like A-Gonz, he's a seabass.

Will M
04-16-2007, 10:58 PM
What does the ML system look like for SS, 3B and 2B for the reds? Couldn't one of those talents move to 3B as a starter?

If EE brings in a stud pitcher isn't it easier to replace POTENTIAL at 3B?

Is this another case of Reds Fans over-valuing a player again?

Not saying it is or isn't the case but I am curious to hear from those of you who may know more or have an opinion.

I am of the opinion EE can be an above average defensive 3B and hit .290 with some power. I don't think we need to trade him, especially for pitching.
The Reds actually have more pitching than hitting in the high minors.

Freel is best as a supersub not as an everyday 3B or OF.

REDREAD
04-17-2007, 12:08 AM
Sure, you trade EdE if it's an offer you can't refuse. But I kind of question we will be offered that kind of haul.

Supposedly this team is built to contend this year, right? Isn't that why we signed all those cagey veterans this past winter? If you deal EdE, you absolutely kill the offense. Dunn and an aging Jr can't do it all themselves.

GoReds
04-17-2007, 12:50 PM
I'm surprised that noone has started the "Edwin to first base" chant that seemed to be making it's way through the rumor mill last year.

KronoRed
04-17-2007, 01:05 PM
I'm surprised that noone has started the "Edwin to first base" chant that seemed to be making it's way through the rumor mill last year.

Not this year, everyone loves Conine ;)

Maybe an EE to left chant will start soon.

BRM
04-17-2007, 01:09 PM
Not this year, everyone loves Conine ;)

Maybe an EE to left chant will start soon.

It would be simpler to trade him. Wayne can probably get Joe Randa to come out of retirement to play 3B for the next 4 or 5 years.

RedEye
04-18-2007, 03:44 PM
Any other ideas about teams with young pitchers they are ready to trade for a young 3B with considerable upside? I love Edwin, but I'm starting to get a sort of "Willie Greene-ish" feeling about him these days. Don't jump all over me for this comparison, but if he starts to hit a bit, this is as high as EdE's value is ever going to be...

klw
04-18-2007, 04:03 PM
Any other ideas about teams with young pitchers they are ready to trade for a young 3B with considerable upside? I love Edwin, but I'm starting to get a sort of "Willie Greene-ish" feeling about him these days. Don't jump all over me for this comparison, but if he starts to hit a bit, this is as high as EdE's value is ever going to be...

I wouldn't want to trade him unless the return is high but Boston could be a fit as Lowell's contract ends this year and they have some good arms in the minors- ex Bucholz, Bard
Florida is a stretch but if Cabrerra gets salary dumped it could be a place to eye.

Heath
04-18-2007, 04:05 PM
Any other ideas about teams with young pitchers they are ready to trade for a young 3B with considerable upside? I love Edwin, but I'm starting to get a sort of "Willie Greene-ish" feeling about him these days. Don't jump all over me for this comparison, but if he starts to hit a bit, this is as high as EdE's value is ever going to be...

:wave: Jerry Narron! Welcome to the board.

Did Mike Schmidt ever have 1-22 slumps? Probably every year. Bob Horner was probably the biggest slumper of them all.

Don't belittle EdE by comparing him with Willie Greene. At least EdE can field. Plus, he only has one error this year.

It's April 18th for crying out loud. The Reds are in first place. It's a long season. The kid's gonna hit. And the only way to find out is let him play.

Chip R
04-18-2007, 04:10 PM
Any other ideas about teams with young pitchers they are ready to trade for a young 3B with considerable upside? I love Edwin, but I'm starting to get a sort of "Willie Greene-ish" feeling about him these days. Don't jump all over me for this comparison, but if he starts to hit a bit, this is as high as EdE's value is ever going to be...


I'm not jumping all over you but what exactly has EE done to give you that impression?

Benihana
04-18-2007, 04:15 PM
I think at worst, he will have the offensive capability of Eric Chavez. At best, he could put up Rolen-like numbers. He'll probably fall somewhere in between, similar to a Joe Crede type. I would wait to trade Edwin at least until next year to see if Votto is ready to be an everyday major leaguer. If he is, maybe you can look into moving Edwin for pitching. However, if he isn't, I would start considering moving him to 1B. The sad truth is, he is probably the only good right-handed bat we have in the entire system right now.

Think about it, if you had to rate the 5 best hitters in the entire system right now, (factoring in age), it would probably go like this:

1. Dunn L
2. Hamilton L
3. Encarnacion R
4. Griffey L
5. Bruce/Votto L

Heath
04-18-2007, 04:17 PM
I think at worst, he will have the offensive capability of Eric Chavez. At best, he could put up Rolen-like numbers. He'll probably fall somewhere in between, similar to a Joe Crede type. I would wait to trade Edwin at least until next year to see if Votto is ready to be an everyday major leaguer. If he is, maybe you can look into moving Edwin for pitching. However, if he isn't, I would start considering moving him to 1B. The sad truth is, he is probably the only good right-handed bat we have in the entire system right now.

Think about it, if you had to rate the 5 best hitters in the entire system right now, (factoring in age), it would probably go like this:

1. Dunn L
2. Hamilton L
3. Encarnacion R
4. Griffey L
5. Bruce/Votto L


If he's Eric Chavez/Joe Crede- offensive type with good defensive range/arm - i'd take him.

That's better than 2/3 of the MLB 3B-man out there right now.

jimbo
04-18-2007, 04:40 PM
:wave: Jerry Narron! Welcome to the board.

Did Mike Schmidt ever have 1-22 slumps? Probably every year. Bob Horner was probably the biggest slumper of them all.

Don't belittle EdE by comparing him with Willie Greene. At least EdE can field. Plus, he only has one error this year.

It's April 18th for crying out loud. The Reds are in first place. It's a long season. The kid's gonna hit. And the only way to find out is let him play.

Isn't comparing EE to Mike Schmidt and Bob Horner just as bad as comparing him to Willie Greene?

Why does it seem that every player on the roster is open to criticism here except for EE? What exactly has he done to warrant his God-like status here?

And I don't mean this as a knock on EE, I'm as big a fan of his as anyone else. It just seems that anyone who is remotely critical of him gets blasted......or accused of being Jerry Narron, even though I don't consider that the insult it's meant to be.

membengal
04-18-2007, 05:14 PM
jimbo...I don't see anyone blasting anyone for having an opinion on EE. You have said that across a bunch of threads now, and I don't see that. At all. There is genuine disagreement with Narron and how he has handled EE over the last two years, and, I think, legitimate disagreement. The blasting accusation? I don't get it. Disagreement can be had without "blasting". I think it has, by and large.

Any comparisons of EE to Schmidt, say, are for exemplar purposes only. Too often, in my view, Reds fans have a far too harsh standard for what youngsters should be and accomplish on their way to being established baseball players. A reminder, now and then, that even the greats like Schmidt struggled with the same kinds of things that EE struggles with would, I hope, temper some of that criticism...

KronoRed
04-18-2007, 05:22 PM
Any comparisons of EE to Schmidt, say, are for exemplar purposes only. Too often, in my view, Reds fans have a far too harsh standard for what youngsters should be and accomplish on their way to being established baseball players. A reminder, now and then, that even the greats like Schmidt struggled with the same kinds of things that EE struggles with would, I hope, temper some of that criticism...

:clap:

Well said.

Young players who show up and don't have struggles are an extreme rarity

He's only 24.

jimbo
04-18-2007, 05:27 PM
membengal.....maybe that word was a little too over the top. But it's hard to not see the many posts where if anyone even remotely criticizes EE, there is always a strong negative reaction.

As far as the comparison of EE to Schmidt, I agree, but the original poster who used the Willie Greene comparison was doing the same thing and he didn't deserve the Welcome Jerry Narron comment, which I interpret as an attempted insult. And I admit, I may have misinterpreted and if I did I apologize.

membengal
04-18-2007, 05:31 PM
My last word on this...if someone disagrees with me (as occasionally happens on here --- insert that dumb winking icon as necessary), is that a "strong negative reaction"? Perhaps. Perhaps any disagreement with something I feel strongly about is such. But, if I can articulate my thoughts clearly, and the poor wayward poster disagreeing with me can do the same, perhaps in that moment of two "strong negative reactions", the magic that makes this a valuable forum can occur.

membengal
04-18-2007, 05:33 PM
By the way, the Twins have a giant gaping hole at 3b. If the Reds can turn EE into Matt Garza, they have my immediate blessing...

Chip R
04-18-2007, 05:46 PM
membengal.....maybe that word was a little too over the top. But it's hard to not see the many posts where if anyone even remotely criticizes EE, there is always a strong negative reaction.



Post something critical of Aaron Harang and see what kind of a reaction you get. What are you going to expect when someone posts something negative about a good young player, hearts and flowers? You have seen what happens when someone posts something negative about Dunn. He's slumping now and he screwed up last week. So now people can criticize him without a negative reaction?

This is a good, young player who is slumping and people are treating him like Brandon Larson. I have my suspicions why but I'll keep them to myself.

Ltlabner
04-18-2007, 05:50 PM
This is a good, young player who is slumping and people are treating him like Brandon Larson. I have my suspicions why but I'll keep them to myself.

You can't throw something out like that, and then say, "I'll keep them to myself".

What do you think those reasons are?

jimbo
04-18-2007, 06:12 PM
Post something critical of Aaron Harang and see what kind of a reaction you get. What are you going to expect when someone posts something negative about a good young player, hearts and flowers? You have seen what happens when someone posts something negative about Dunn. He's slumping now and he screwed up last week. So now people can criticize him without a negative reaction?

This is a good, young player who is slumping and people are treating him like Brandon Larson. I have my suspicions why but I'll keep them to myself.

Well I think that Narron is a good manager and people here treat him like dirt for the most part. I think EE is a good, young player also, but he hasn't reached Mike Schmidt status also. It goes both ways.

I obviously am not finding the right words so maybe I should just move on, but I just thought the original response to the poster who mentioned the Willie Greene comparison was disrespectful and those types of responses are the ones I was targeting. Reacting strongly to an opinion is one thing, being insultive to the person with that opinion is entirely different. If I misinterpreted it, then I sincerely apologize.

My last word. :beerme:

Wheelhouse
04-18-2007, 06:19 PM
Post something critical of Aaron Harang and see what kind of a reaction you get. What are you going to expect when someone posts something negative about a good young player, hearts and flowers? You have seen what happens when someone posts something negative about Dunn. He's slumping now and he screwed up last week. So now people can criticize him without a negative reaction?

This is a good, young player who is slumping and people are treating him like Brandon Larson. I have my suspicions why but I'll keep them to myself.

I don't think you can realistically say people are being critical. Edwin is 24. He may need a little more seasoning to be able to make adjustments to slumps. He may just be burnt out from winter ball. I think what people object to is this sense that Encarnacion MUST start at all times. The Reds have multiple options now. Edwin is no longer the best hitting prospect on the team. Hamilton is. The Reds have no legit leadoff man other than Freel. Edwin has a huge place in the Reds future and he will be the starting third baseman. But let Narron negotiate his way through this bottleneck right now, even if it means benching EE a few games. Don't worry, someone will get hurt soon enough and this won't be an issue.

paintmered
04-18-2007, 06:25 PM
He may just be burnt out from winter ball.

That might be it. He was raking during winter ball.

membengal
05-10-2007, 05:58 PM
By the way, the Twins have a giant gaping hole at 3b. If the Reds can turn EE into Matt Garza, they have my immediate blessing...



Bumping back up, as this seems topical again. And I would still be glad to take Garza off of Minny's hands for EE, all things considered.

schroomytunes
05-10-2007, 06:43 PM
Well if the Twins want to fill the 3rd base hole bad enough then I would offer them this package:

Reds trade: EE and a PTBNL

Twins trade: Jesse Crain and Scott Baker(AAA)

Thoughts?

membengal
05-10-2007, 06:47 PM
You rate Baker ahead of Garza? Because I would rather have Garza. But, yeah, something along those lines would make sense...