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View Full Version : Narron lets pitchers hit too often, then pulls them



Blitz Dorsey
04-16-2007, 09:45 PM
Let me preface by saying I like Jerry Narron overall. You are not reading the words of some Narron basher.

But too often I've noticed he allows the pitcher to bat in let's say the 5th or 6th or 7th inning, and then pulls them as soon as they allow a baserunner the following inning. You have to have some foresight here. If you know your pitcher is already on a short leash, then you have to put in a pinch hitter for them when they come to bat. Narron is trying to have it both ways and it could be costing us runs. And I'm not just talking about the Eric Milton example on 4/16 against the Brewers (Milton hits in the bottom of the 5th, then is lifted after Fielder doubles to lead off the sixth) but that is one very good example. Why let Milton hit there if you know you are going to take him out as soon as he gives up a hit the following inning? I have noticed this quite often with Narron over the last couple years. This is one of the key differences of managing in the NL and AL and Narron is still lacking in this area.

IMO, if a manager lets the pitcher bat, that means you are confident he will last at least another full inning or two. If you are going to pull him as soon as he gives up a hit or walk, you might as well take him out the previous inning, send up a pinch hitter and hope for some runs.

James B.
04-16-2007, 10:52 PM
Great points. I was thinking the same thing. The reds were down 2-0 and in need of runs badly. I can't believe he let him hit and then pulled him after one batter.

REDblooded
04-16-2007, 10:58 PM
What? Narron > god.

jimbo
04-16-2007, 11:00 PM
He wanted to bring in Santos, but the lefty Fielder was first up next inning. The bases were empty with 2 outs when Milton's turn came up. Milton was probably done whether Fielder gets on or not. Makes perfect sense to me. He was just playing the percentages.

UGADaddy
04-16-2007, 11:04 PM
He wanted to bring in Santos, but the lefty Fielder was first up next inning. The bases were empty with 2 outs when Milton's turn came up. Milton was probably done whether Fielder gets on or not. Makes perfect sense to me. He was just playing the percentages.

Agreed.


What? Narron > god.

What exactly does this mean??

REDblooded
04-16-2007, 11:11 PM
Agreed.



What exactly does this mean??

It means Narron is greater than God, and I don't care what religion you observe.

Blitz Dorsey
04-16-2007, 11:48 PM
He wanted to bring in Santos, but the lefty Fielder was first up next inning. The bases were empty with 2 outs when Milton's turn came up. Milton was probably done whether Fielder gets on or not. Makes perfect sense to me. He was just playing the percentages.

I know it's always a long-shot, but Narron should have been thinking about starting a two-out rally with no one on. Even with two outs and the pitcher coming up, I would rather see a pinch hitter there who could possibly get a hit or HR and all of a sudden it's a 2-1 game. It's a totally different story if you are planning on leaving the pitcher in for a few innings. But to let him bat and then pull him after one batter is absolutely absurd and doesn't play to any percentages. Narron basically gave Capuano and the Brewers a free out in the bottom of the fifth in what was a 2 run game at the time. Very dumb IMO, and overall I like Narron.

thatcoolguy_22
04-16-2007, 11:50 PM
It means Narron is greater than God, and I don't care what religion you observe.

:laugh: :laugh:


:help:

jimbo
04-17-2007, 12:00 AM
I know it's always a long-shot, but Narron should have been thinking about starting a two-out rally with no one on. Even with two outs and the pitcher coming up, I would rather see a pinch hitter there who could possibly get a hit or HR and all of a sudden it's a 2-1 game. It's a totally different story if you are planning on leaving the pitcher in for a few innings. But to let him bat and then pull him after one batter is absolutely absurd and doesn't play to any percentages. Narron basically gave Capuano and the Brewers a free out in the bottom of the fifth in what was a 2 run game at the time. Very dumb IMO, and overall I like Narron.

It's a matter of philosophy. To call it a dumb move is just unwarranted because it was a sound managerial decision whether you agree or not. Maybe not every manager would have done the same, but many would have. If it was later in the game or if there were runners on base or if Milton was leading the inning off, it wouldn't have been a sound decision. But given the inning and the situation, it made plenty of sense.

Dunner44
04-17-2007, 12:01 AM
I know it's always a long-shot, but Narron should have been thinking about starting a two-out rally with no one on. Even with two outs and the pitcher coming up, I would rather see a pinch hitter there who could possibly get a hit or HR and all of a sudden it's a 2-1 game. It's a totally different story if you are planning on leaving the pitcher in for a few innings. But to let him bat and then pull him after one batter is absolutely absurd and doesn't play to any percentages. Narron basically gave Capuano and the Brewers a free out in the bottom of the fifth in what was a 2 run game at the time. Very dumb IMO, and overall I like Narron.

I don't have a huge problem with it. It clears the pitcher's spot so your 1-2-3 lead off the next inning any way. Thats where the offense should be comming from.

Dunner44
04-17-2007, 12:01 AM
btw... did you have another example from this year? Or another memorable one? I think he does this often as well, but I don't know specifically when he does it.

Blitz Dorsey
04-17-2007, 02:58 AM
Not off the top of my head, but it has happened quite often during his tenure. It's definitely my No. 1 complaint about Narron. I think sometimes he feels that he is disrespecting the pitcher by pitch hitting for them, but that's just life in the National League. Narron needs to get over it and if he knows he is about to pull a pitcher anyway, pinch hit for him and try and produce every hit and run possible. You never give up on an inning just because you have two outs and none on. Like I said, it's a completely different story if you think your pitcher can give you another full inning or two. But if you think he's only good for one or two more batters at best, my all means send a pinch hitter up there and try and get something going. Narron sometimes manages like runs are going to magically appear. Especially when you are losing, you better be aggressive and go after some runs. I don't have as big of a problem with it when we're winning say 2-0. But down 2-0 like last night, he should have pinch hit. And you know the Brewers were loving that move. Just another free out in what was at that time a close ballgame. Well, Milty is a decent hitter for a pitcher and "if you swing the bat you're dangerous" I've been told, but I would have much rather seen a real hitter up there.

coachw513
04-17-2007, 08:48 AM
He wanted to bring in Santos, but the lefty Fielder was first up next inning. The bases were empty with 2 outs when Milton's turn came up. Milton was probably done whether Fielder gets on or not. Makes perfect sense to me. He was just playing the percentages.

Excellent analysis and dead-on :thumbup:

Didn't work the best, but the reasoning was sound...

Otherwise you waste a PH, waste one of your LH bullpeners pitching to Fielder, both shortening your already short bench and overworking your bullpen too much for an early season game IMHO...

bucksfan2
04-17-2007, 10:35 AM
This is one of Narron's flaws and I agree that he doesn't have the "feel" when handling pitchers. Let me ask you about last nights game. There is a lefty on the mound so your ph options are Valentine, Moeller, and Cruz. Is there really an advantage with those 3 over Milton?

Johnny Footstool
04-17-2007, 11:01 AM
Who would have been the PH? Moeller?

As thin as Narron and Krivsky have left the bench, the Reds can't afford to use a PH in marginal situations.

Blitz Dorsey
04-17-2007, 02:28 PM
Yeah, I know we have a thin bench, but it still doesn't excuse throwing in the towel on an inning when you are about to take the pitcher out anyway. Milton might be a decent hitter for a pitcher, but I would still rather see Valentin up there, or even Moeller.

Again, if the Reds were winning it would have been a different story. But when you're losing, you have to go for it in that situation, even with two outs, unless you think your pitcher can give you another inning or two. JMHO.

zombie-a-go-go
04-17-2007, 03:25 PM
Again, if the Reds were winning it would have been a different story. But when you're losing, you have to go for it in that situation, even with two outs, unless you think your pitcher can give you another inning or two. JMHO.

Gotta agree with this. Initially I was leaning the other way - "what if they need Valentin to PH in a leverage situation later in the game?" - but then you're sacrificing current opportunity for a potential future opportunity that may never come.

'S like having a quarter in your pocket when the ice cream truck comes bumbling 'round the corner, and wanting ice cream, but not buying any because the truck might come round later and you could be even more covetous of ice cream then.

...and yes, I know that was a ham-tongued analogy. Blah.

Johnny Footstool
04-17-2007, 04:37 PM
Gotta agree with this. Initially I was leaning the other way - "what if they need Valentin to PH in a leverage situation later in the game?" - but then you're sacrificing current opportunity for a potential future opportunity that may never come.

'S like having a quarter in your pocket when the ice cream truck comes bumbling 'round the corner, and wanting ice cream, but not buying any because the truck might come round later and you could be even more covetous of ice cream then.

...and yes, I know that was a ham-tongued analogy. Blah.

Mmm...ham tongue ice cream for a quarter...

Matt700wlw
04-17-2007, 05:00 PM
He wanted to bring in Santos, but the lefty Fielder was first up next inning. The bases were empty with 2 outs when Milton's turn came up. Milton was probably done whether Fielder gets on or not. Makes perfect sense to me. He was just playing the percentages.

What's the percentage that Milton actually has an inning without allowing someone on base or worse, someone to score?

:D

MississippiRed
04-17-2007, 05:17 PM
Who would have been the PH? Moeller?

As thin as Narron and Krivsky have left the bench, the Reds can't afford to use a PH in marginal situations.

Hear! Hear! Hamilton/Valentin are the only hitters on the bench with a better chance of getting a 2-out hit than Milton, and they need to be saved for a higher-leverage situation. Regardless of what you think of him as a pitcher, Milton can hit the ball.

hammer
04-17-2007, 05:22 PM
Hear! Hear! Hamilton/Valentin are the only hitters on the bench with a better chance of getting a 2-out hit than Milton, and they need to be saved for a higher-leverage situation. Regardless of what you think of him as a pitcher, Milton can hit the ball.



MAybe we should try to convert him into a position player since he is not getting it done.;)

hammer
04-17-2007, 05:34 PM
oops double post