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NorrisHopper30
04-17-2007, 12:52 AM
After the game tonight I was talking to a few friends of mine and they wouldn't stop talking about how bad Milton did, and I read on a few other message boards and Milton was being picked on again. Does he really deserve this, his first few starts have been DECENT and the majority of us are treating him like he's giving up 10 runs per start.

I have a question, how many decent starts without a bad one until you give Milton your trust or some credit?

He certainly isn't pitching like a 10 million dollar pitcher, but he's not doing that bad..

5 innings 3 hits 2 runs. The only down side is his 98 pitches, in which he threw 30ish in the first inning and I think 15 of those just on Bill Hall.

mroby85
04-17-2007, 01:03 AM
I agree Norris, I understand why it is less tolerable because of his contract, but i think thats where a lot of the hatred comes from. however milton is a very frustrating pitcher to watch as well, he's like a ticking time bomb.

Highlifeman21
04-17-2007, 01:06 AM
After the game tonight I was talking to a few friends of mine and they wouldn't stop talking about how bad Milton did, and I read on a few other message boards and Milton was being picked on again. Does he really deserve this, his first few starts have been DECENT and the majority of us are treating him like he's giving up 10 runs per start.

I have a question, how many decent starts without a bad one until you give Milton your trust or some credit?

He certainly isn't pitching like a 10 million dollar pitcher, but he's not doing that bad..

5 innings 3 hits 2 runs. The only down side is his 98 pitches, in which he threw 30ish in the first inning and I think 15 of those just on Bill Hall.

Yes, Milton deserves all of this.

I can give you 27,000,000 reasons over the past 3 years as to why he deserves all of this.

Milton needs to win at least 12 games this year, and lose no more than 9 this year for me to give him any credit.

jimbo
04-17-2007, 01:07 AM
Well, you can make the excuse that he has had a lot of downtime and probably isn't at full strength. Having said that though, I thought he looked pretty mediocre. Most of his pitches were up in the strike zone and had little movement. To me, it looks like he is still having trouble driving off his left leg and is trying to compensate by overthrowing the ball.

His numbers were decent, but the whole time I was watching I thought he was on the verge of getting blasted the whole game. I was unimpressed.

fearofpopvol1
04-17-2007, 01:46 AM
I thought he was pretty solid tonight actually. He went the 5 innings he usually can and gave up 2 ER. Not bad for a 5th starter (albeit a very overpaid one).

I definitely agree that he is frustrating to watch and he's not really fooling anybody. However, he doesn't deserve to be DFA'ed (yet).

TeamSelig
04-17-2007, 01:47 AM
Anything under 5 ERA and Milton has met my expectations.

4.75 and I would be pretty happy... not that our 5th starter is making 9 something million, but just that we would be getting that out of our 5th starter

HumnHilghtFreel
04-17-2007, 02:01 AM
Milton needs to win at least 12 games this year, and lose no more than 9 this year for me to give him any credit.

Wins and Losses are overrated for a pitcher, IMO. Arroyo should have had about 20 last year had he gotten any offensive support. It's reasonable to think that with any run support, Milty could be 2-0 this year.

His first game was iffy, he gave up a lot of hits, but we were never really out of it. Tonight's game he did his job. He only did 5 innings of his job, but he kept us in the game. When we signed him we might not have signed him to be a 5 inning and gone guy, but that's what he currently is and he's done a decent job of it so far.

Shaggy Sanchez
04-17-2007, 02:08 AM
You can blame Milton for being awful the last two years but you can't blame him for making 9 million a year. Anyone would accept an offer like that, DanO and Linder are to blame for how much he is making and at this point Wayne should be blamed for keeping him on the team. Milton can be blamed for a lot of things but pitching bad or hurting the Reds tonight shouldn't be one of them.

Milton gave his team a chance to win tonight and the offense and bullpen didn't help him out. I won't say that how he did it was pretty but he got into the 6th allowing 3 runs (2 earned) you can't ask for much more from a 5th starter. If the offense does anything early or the BP doesn't blow up on the mound and Milton pitches a good 5 innings and the Reds win that game.

coachw513
04-17-2007, 09:01 AM
After the game tonight I was talking to a few friends of mine and they wouldn't stop talking about how bad Milton did, and I read on a few other message boards and Milton was being picked on again. Does he really deserve this, his first few starts have been DECENT and the majority of us are treating him like he's giving up 10 runs per start.

I have a question, how many decent starts without a bad one until you give Milton your trust or some credit?

He certainly isn't pitching like a 10 million dollar pitcher, but he's not doing that bad..

5 innings 3 hits 2 runs. The only down side is his 98 pitches, in which he threw 30ish in the first inning and I think 15 of those just on Bill Hall.

Take the uniform number and name off Milton's back and we'd be more than pleased with the performance...

Not that having 8 days off between starts didn't impact his lack of sharpness early...let's give Hall some credit for an incredible AB that extended Milton's pitch count...

But Milton's a bum, didn't you know that :rolleyes: :D

Always Red
04-17-2007, 09:29 AM
Take the uniform number and name off Milton's back and we'd be more than pleased with the performance...



That's it, in a nutshell.

It's not just here, but baseball fans in general, that have expectations based upon salary. If a guy signs a big contract, it comes with certain expectations. I've seen that the Reds players whom are disliked by some folks here are the ones they think are overpaid. It's the nature of the game today, to make as much money as you can. If the Reds sign you for 3 years at $27 million, you'd be a fool not to take it.

I'm not the biggest Uncle Milty fan who ever lived. But Eric Milton is not the problem, he is not the reason the Reds lost last night. He is however, the favored whipping boy of the day. When he leaves, someone else will descend to his spot, some other guy who is being paid what he fans perceive as being too much. You could insert just about anybody in here- Weathers, Cormier, Freel (now), Griffey, Stanton, Dunn, Ross, etc, etc. Or even a guy like Majewski, who was traded for popular players, is reviled for being hurt, and not being good enough. The Majewski hate is a mystery to me; the guy was traded, was hurt, tried to suck it up and do his job. And that's it.

I was at opening day, and I was truly embarassed that Milton was booed. Why? If you want to boo someone, boo Lindner, O'Brien and Allen, who signed him to the contract. Boo a player for making a mental error. But booing a guy on opening day, a guy who has never had a bad thing to say during his time here, booing him just for not living up to contract expectations?? I think that shows a total lack of class and dignity from the fans who did the booing. Disappointing? Absolutely, Milty's performance has been disappointing. But there's a difference,, at least in my small mind...

Milton pitched a game last night that you would accept, everyday of the week, from your 5th starter.

PS- I also became a bigger Adam Dunn fan than I've ever been before when he spoke about Eric Milton earlier this month, after the loss to Pittsburgh:

Reds left-fielder Adam Dunn defended his teammate after Sunday's loss.


"He's such a competitor," Dunn said. "He's the hardest worker I've been around my whole life. He's played with a lot of things that probably 99 percent of the people wouldn't even think about stepping on the mound with and that he's pitched through.

"I love the guy. I love having him on my team. He's awesome. He has struggled but I hope he has the best year ever. I really do. He deserves it."

Ltlabner
04-17-2007, 09:32 AM
Well, you can make the excuse that he has had a lot of downtime and probably isn't at full strength. Having said that though, I thought he looked pretty mediocre. Most of his pitches were up in the strike zone and had little movement. To me, it looks like he is still having trouble driving off his left leg and is trying to compensate by overthrowing the ball.

His numbers were decent, but the whole time I was watching I thought he was on the verge of getting blasted the whole game. I was unimpressed.

I'm with you Jimbo. While the final numbers might look decent for a 5th starter, he was walking the highwire all night. Perhaps it was beacause it was the Brewers that he got away with it. Perhaps it was just shear luck. Perhaps it was the generosity of the umpire. Either way, those are factors not likely to repete themselves.

He got away with it last night, but another night or team. Not likely to be a good outcome.

bucksfan2
04-17-2007, 10:21 AM
Milton had a performance that was acceptable for anyone on this team outside of Arroyo and Harang. If this offense wouldn't have been so anemic they should have given Milton more run support early in the game. The money Milton is making is already gone and its not coming back. He is the favorite whipping boy of cincinnati because of the contract he signed but I would take that start he gave the reds last night every time he takes the mound.

TRF
04-17-2007, 10:23 AM
Take the uniform number and name off Milton's back and we'd be more than pleased with the performance...

Not that having 8 days off between starts didn't impact his lack of sharpness early...let's give Hall some credit for an incredible AB that extended Milton's pitch count...

But Milton's a bum, didn't you know that :rolleyes: :D

99 pitches through 5 innings. 5 baserunners. 2 of those hits were a double and a HR. That he left with only two runs on the board is amazing. It's also unlikely to be repeated. Had he started Sunday, the Cubs would have brutalized him.

Now contrast that with Matt Belisle's last start. 6 IP, 86 pitches, 3 hits 1 walk. 1 run allowed. the hardest hit ball was a double. 3 K's

It's amazing how 1 more inning can help a pen. It's amazing how getting guys to ground out harmlessly can help the scoreboard.

But we're picking on Milton. Nevermind the facts.

TOBTTReds
04-17-2007, 10:41 AM
99 pitches through 5 innings. 5 baserunners. 2 of those hits were a double and a HR. That he left with only two runs on the board is amazing. It's also unlikely to be repeated. Had he started Sunday, the Cubs would have brutalized him.

Now contrast that with Matt Belisle's last start. 6 IP, 86 pitches, 3 hits 1 walk. 1 run allowed. the hardest hit ball was a double. 3 K's

It's amazing how 1 more inning can help a pen. It's amazing how getting guys to ground out harmlessly can help the scoreboard.

But we're picking on Milton. Nevermind the facts.

Thank you. I was going to post something similar to this. Pitching 5 innings is not what starters do! They need to pitch 6 or 7 or 8. Everyone says a "quality start" of 6 ip, 3 er is not very good. So how could leaving the game after 5+ with a runner on after 99 pitches be any good?

If our bullpen has to pitch 4 innings every game he pitches, we are going to lose those games. Any team will. It is a solid fact (I'll look it up later, but I have to run to work), the sooner you get to the bullpen, the better chance you have of scoring runs.

I don't get how many of you don't see this. The Reds absolutely crush middle relievers. They relish the moment the starter leaves. Why wouldn't it be the same for the opponents. No matter how bad Milton is doing, him leaving after 5 innings is NEVER good for the team. He was pathetic tonight. He couldn't put away hitters whatsoever. If you avg 20 pitches per inning, you will have a short career/season. Also, this was the struggling Brewers that he took forever to get out. I don't feel like he will go 7 innings more than twice this year. And when he does, I bet he's giving up 4-5 runs.

If Milt was truley a 5th starter with 4 other dependable starters, it wouldn't be such a big deal that he goes 5. But right now, I don't think MB and KL are completely dependable yet. MB is young, and Lohse has proven to be inconsistant in the past. Maybe other teams can afford the consistancy of Milton's performances, but I dont think the Reds are one of those teams.

*Note: I made this whole argument w/o mentioning his contract. Cant blame a guy for signing a good deal when offered. We can cry to DanO for that one, not have expectations for Milt to "pitch to contract."

Always Red
04-17-2007, 10:43 AM
99 pitches through 5 innings. 5 baserunners. 2 of those hits were a double and a HR. That he left with only two runs on the board is amazing. It's also unlikely to be repeated. Had he started Sunday, the Cubs would have brutalized him.

Now contrast that with Matt Belisle's last start. 6 IP, 86 pitches, 3 hits 1 walk. 1 run allowed. the hardest hit ball was a double. 3 K's

It's amazing how 1 more inning can help a pen. It's amazing how getting guys to ground out harmlessly can help the scoreboard.

But we're picking on Milton. Nevermind the facts.

Belisle's pitched great, no question. I hope he can keep it up!

Milty gave up three hits and two walks for 5 innings last night. That's a WHIP of 1.00, which is pretty good. Yes, he threw way too many pitches, especially early on. If Billy Hall could play against the Reds everyday, he'd already be in the HoF.

Uncle Milty's the 5th starter on this team. Was that performance last night about the norm for a 5th starter? I think so. Nope, it certainly wasn't a great performance, but it was average for a 5th starter.

So, if Milton goes one more inning last night, Coffey doesn't implode? I really don't think one thing is related to the other, specifically. Sure, the longer your starters go, the more rest your bullpen gets. Was Coffey too tired last night? Is the bullpen overworked right now? no way.

If we're looking for a pitcher to hang this on last night, it's Todd Coffey. And I'm a big Coffey fan. One night, that's all- he get over it.

Milty's the whippin boy because of his contract, no question. He's, in fact, still on this team because of that same contract, it is the only reason he's still here. With as disappointing as he has been, I'm sure they've tried a million ways to move him. If he was optionable, they'd do it, and if he winds up sucking as badly as he did in 2005, I think they'll DFA him. But last night was not a bad outing for him. Certainly not worthy of a release or a demotion.

Until baseball comes up with a better system of earning money, you're always going to get guys getting paid for either 1. what they've done in the past or 2. their potential.

RedsManRick
04-17-2007, 11:13 AM
Milton has to pitch as well as he can pitch. That might not be great, but frankly he now has a 5.06 ERA -- which while not wonderful, is solid work from a #5 starter. He does not decide his salary and cannot be blamed for it. It's not like he was an ace and is now slacking off. Give Dan O'Brien all the crap you want, because it's his fault that Milton is ridiculously overpaid. Expecting him to be better than he is doesn't accomplish anything. In fact, it hurts us if it means running him out there for 6 or 7 innings when he's only effective for 5.

TRF
04-17-2007, 11:46 AM
Milty gave up three hits and two walks for 5 innings last night. That's a WHIP of 1.00, which is pretty good. Yes, he threw way too many pitches, especially early on.

This is one reason why sabermetrics gets a bad rap. use one stat to make the claim that someone did well. Look deeper. What was his OPSA? Did he go 6 innings? What was his pitch count?

As a number 5 starter, he's not very good. That speaks volumes about his complete inability to help this team. Had any of the following pitchers started in his place, Saarloos, Livingston, Dumatrait, Gosling or Bailey I'd have at least some interest. With Milton, I never bothered checking the score until the game was over. He's both a physical and psychological albatross.

Always Red
04-17-2007, 12:13 PM
He's both a physical and psychological albatross.

TRF, I have no problem at all with Saarloos, Livingston, or Bailey being ahead of Milton on the "depth chart" for SP. I would agree with you, in fact. I think it's a bit of a stretch to mention Gosling.

The Milton negativity on here is just overwhelming, and way too emotional. Many here openly root for him to get pounded (I'm not saying that you do that).

As coachw513 said above- change the name on the back of the uniform last night, and no one would complain very much about the outing.

I was just objectively pointing out that the outing last night was not that bad. Not great, just average. It was considered as bad by some because of Milton's past history. Milton has, in fact, pitched better than Aaron Harang has this year. I know, small sample size. No one here is ready to throw the towel in on Aaron Harang (well, I'm not anyway).

Throw the man a bone- he pitched ok last night. He may well be DFA'd by the end of May, and I'm ok with that if he blows up and gets released. Those other guys you named above may well be ready to do the job, then again they may not. I just don't understand the hate, frankly, that comes from some here when discussing Milton (again, not specifically you, TRF). He's a ballplayer, doing his best, albeit sometimes very badly. He didn't kill anybody, and in fact, has been a model citizen during his time here.

I root for the man to do well.

PuffyPig
04-17-2007, 12:18 PM
Milton has, in fact, pitched better than Aaron Harang has this year. I know, small sample size. No one here is ready to throw the towel in on Aaron Harang (well, I'm not anyway).



On no planet has Milton pitched better than Harang. Harang has a DIPS ERA in the high 3's.

Always Red
04-17-2007, 12:25 PM
On no planet has Milton pitched better than Harang. Harang has a DIPS ERA in the high 3's.

Well, either stats count or they don't.

I give up on defending Mr. Milton.

He did not pitch badly last night.

I love Aaron Harang, but he has not pitched well this year, yet.

TRF
04-17-2007, 12:28 PM
I don't think Gosling would be worse than Milton right now.

I was genuinely saddened when Paul Wilson was finally DFA'd. His work ethic, his trials, his immense talent destroyed by injuries (Mark Prior anyone?). But the fact of the matter is, Paul Wilson wasn't signed to be a #1 starter. Milton was.

I don't root against Milton. I'm apathetic about him. I just don't care. M2 posted as much, but going through yesterday's game thread, I see he posted. He was paying attention to the game. I went to Wal-Mart to buy a few groceries and my little girl a new shirt.

Allow me to emphasize this. I'd rather go to Wal-Mart than listen to a game pitched by Milton.

His result was he gave up 2 runs in 5 IP. but that doesn't mean he pitched well at all. That isn't even a quality start. Never mind the fact that 2 of the three hits were for extra bases including a HR. Or how about the pitch count? how about his GO/FO ratio of 2/9? Not too good for this park. Or how about he was facing a Brewers team that was struggling offensively?

He is physically unable to be the pitcher he was. The knee won't allow it.

Despite what was quoted, I doubt the Reds have confidence that when Eric Milton takes the hill, that they have a chance to win.

jimbo
04-17-2007, 02:09 PM
The Milton negativity on here is just overwhelming, and way too emotional. Many here openly root for him to get pounded (I'm not saying that you do that).


I'm one of the few in this thread who spoke negatively of Milton last night, but I sure as heck always root for him. Actually, I've been a big defender of him for 3 seasons now. I know his numbers last night were respectable, but I still defend my opinion that his stuff was pretty mediocre. When you are overthrowing the ball, as he clearly was last night with his fastball, there is most likely something wrong. Everything was up in the zone and had little movement, both together usually a recipe for disaster.

I know his numbers so far are respectable for a 5th starter and I am not considering his salary at all when forming my opinion because like it has been said, you can't blame him for that. I remember early last season when he had some pretty good games. He was really sharp in those games, driving very well off that left leg. I just feel that so far this season, he is nowhere near that sharp.

Always Red
04-17-2007, 02:17 PM
He was really sharp in those games, driving very well off that left leg. I just feel that so far this season, he is nowhere near that sharp.

You're right, he's not sharp. When he throws the FB, he has a little hop-step at the end, trying to put a little gitty-up mustard on it, not driving through at all. That little hitch at the end is new; he didnt have it in the past. He was hitting 90 at times, but his location is not good. I'm pretty sure there's not much more anyone can do to make his knee any better. My only point, jimbo, is that he hasn't pitched badly for a 5th starter. I agree with TRF that there are better options at AAA. Most probably we'll be seeing a few of those guys later this year.

jimbo
04-17-2007, 02:25 PM
My only point, jimbo, is that he hasn't pitched badly for a 5th starter.

I can't argue with you on that when looking at his numbers. I just feel that by judging his stuff for his first two starts that eventually it will get ugly if it does not get better. Having said that though, I hope I am dead wrong. This team needs a healthy Milton who can give them reliable and consistant numbers in the 5th spot and there is nobody rooting more for that than me.

And I also do not like how he is getting booed, of course I don't like the idea of booing any Reds player.

Redskinalum02
04-17-2007, 02:26 PM
Just one man's opinion, but I have seen enough Eric Milton pitched games in the last 3 years to come to the conclusion that I don't want to see him start another game for the Reds. I root for the guy. Apparently, he's a good guy who works hard, but there are simply better options. Milton will never give the Reds a consistent chance to win a game he starts. For the last two years it was always get pounded a couple games in a row, then come back with a brilliant game, etc.

Risk vs. Reward people. I'm willing to risk putting Saarloos or a young guy in the rotation. That said, Milton out of the pen might be worth trying for a short sample size.

Ltlabner
04-17-2007, 02:27 PM
I am really streching here, I admit that upfront.

But they had a shot of Milton on the bench on FSN last night. It was after he was pulled. He looked so dejected and joyless. It almost seemed like he knows his time has come and with each outing he's that many more innings closer to his carear being over. That has to be tough.

Again, I know I'm REALLY reading into a 3 second camera shot.

HumnHilghtFreel
04-17-2007, 03:21 PM
I am really streching here, I admit that upfront.

But they had a shot of Milton on the bench on FSN last night. It was after he was pulled. He looked so dejected and joyless. It almost seemed like he knows his time has come and with each outing he's that many more innings closer to his carear being over. That has to be tough.

Again, I know I'm REALLY reading into a 3 second camera shot.

I know what you mean. I said something about how bad I actually felt for him in the game thread when I saw the shot you're speaking of.

Doro
04-17-2007, 03:49 PM
I'm not a big Milton fan but you cant rip him for his performance last night. He failed to get through 6 innings but still pitched well enough to keep the Reds in the ball game even with some fielding blunders. I would take that from him or any other 5th starter any day.

Redlegs
04-17-2007, 05:42 PM
Milton has earned the criticism given him in on this board and other boards from his performances with the Reds in the past. He also deserves credit for a good outing last night. He kept his team in the game and gave them a chance to win. That's all you can ask from a starting pitcher.

VR
04-17-2007, 05:50 PM
Milty had a lousy 2005, one of the worst ever.
His 2006 was average or above for a #4 starter.

No one should have confidence in the guy, for sure. No one should doubt that his results have been less than stellar. Yet, in MLB....it's what you get out of your #4 or #5 guys. Unless you have a 150M payroll.

NorrisHopper30
04-17-2007, 05:50 PM
Milton has earned the criticism given him in on this board and other boards from his performances with the Reds in the past. He also deserves credit for a good outing last night. He kept his team in the game and gave them a chance to win. That's all you can ask from a starting pitcher.

I think you've said it best, he hasn't performed to our expectations in the past so a lot of people won't even give him credit for present/future.

thatcoolguy_22
04-17-2007, 05:52 PM
Read this article

http://www.dispatch.com/dispatch/contentbe/dispatch/2007/04/17/20070417-E1-01.html




CINCINNATI ? The Cincinnati fans love Ryan Freel. If he hit .190, they would still love him, because they can always see his baseball passion.

The Cincinnati fans don?t love Eric Milton. All they see when they look at him is a big salary and little success. His teammates say he works hard; Adam Dunn even said last week that he?s "the hardest worker I?ve been around my whole life." But no one is watching when the Reds lefty is lifting weights, running his personal marathons and doing all the other things on Monday mornings or Tuesday afternoons when the rest of the world is standing around complaining about high-priced, low-quality pitchers at the office coffee machine.

On the day when the dirt-eating, belly-flopping, wall-crashing Freel was rewarded with a well-deserved two-year contract extension valued at $7 million, the contrast between his situation and Milton?s couldn?t have been more stark.

Freel is seen as the tireless worker who deserves every dime, Milton as a no-account freeloader who hit the super lottery.

"I go out there and play the game the way it?s supposed to be played," Freel said. "That?s all I do. ? All I can control is keep showing up on time and laying my heart out on the field, and I think the fans in Cincinnati respect that. The fans feel like they know how the game is supposed to be played."

They also feel like they know how the game is supposed to be pitched, of course, and with all due respect to Freel, it?s not quite as easy for a pitcher to impress the critics. Freel can run into the outfield fence trying to make a catch and everyone will nod in appreciation of the effort. No one, not even Milton?s immediate family, gives a flip if he dives to the turf for an infield grounder or sprints to the dugout like a kid who has gorged himself on Halloween candy.

For a pitcher to be loved, he has to pitch well, period. And if he doesn?t and he makes a lot of money ? Milton is making $9 million this season ? he is a natural target.

That explains why Milton was the only Reds player booed when the team was introduced on opening day. It explains why there was a smattering of boos for him last night when the lineup was announced. And why there were a few loud boos when Milwaukee?s Rickie Weeks led off the third inning with a home run.

It?s hard to categorize that as totally unfair ? at the end of the day, Milton still has his $9 million salary and you and I don?t ? but it does merit closer examination. Milton hasn?t pitched particularly well since the Reds signed him as a free agent in December 2004. He was 8-15 with a 6.47 ERA in 2005 and 8-8 with a 5.19 ERA in 2006. But he also hasn?t been all that healthy.

The guy the Reds signed for $25.5 million threw fastballs in the 92-to-93 mph range to complement his 88 mph slider. This Milton, the one who has since had both knee and elbow surgery, seldom tops 87 to 88.

People are booing Milton because he?s not the old Milton, which is why this is all so confusing. It?s because he?s not the old Milton that he has a difficult time pitching like him.

This Milton is No. 5 in the Reds? rotation, and by that standard he pitched pretty well last night, allowing three runs, two earned, and three hits in five-plus innings in what ended up being a 10-6 Cincinnati loss.

Spectacular? Hardly.

But if Milton could simply pitch the way he did last night all season, the Reds would have a decent chance of winning the division title. And the fans, forgetting what he makes and who he?s not for just a little while, might not even boo.

BRM
04-17-2007, 06:03 PM
It has absolutely nothing to do with being a hard worker. Freel produces and hustles so people love him. Milton works hard but stinks so people don't love him. It's all about production. If Milton's contract only payed him $3M per year, he would have been cut last year.

TOBTTReds
04-17-2007, 06:40 PM
It has absolutely nothing to do with being a hard worker. Freel produces and hustles so people love him. Milton works hard but stinks so people don't love him. It's all about production. If Milton's contract only payed him $3M per year, he would have been cut last year.

Working out hard doesn't mean you win games. Good post.

TRF
04-18-2007, 10:37 AM
Well in the spirit of balance, Belisle flat out sucked last night. But here is the difference: it's all about learning curve. Belisle is learning how to start again. He's learning how to make adjustments. He's been ok pitch count-wise for a number 4 starter.

Whether anyone thinks that Milton's starts were ok for a number 5 starter is irrelevant (I happen to disagree on this though) he was signed to be a #1. There are three guys starting at AAA Louisville that could do at least as well, and one guy on the DL (EZ). Plus Saarloos. That's 5 guys that could do AT LEAST as well, and probably better.

The Reds got lucky last night. The bats woke to bail Belisle out of a well deserved loss. When Milton pitches, the offense has to be ready to do that every time. Oh he'll pitch an occasional good game, lulling Narron into thinking "this is the Milton we've been waiting for." But then you get closer and realize the oasis was just a reflection in the road.

cincrazy
04-18-2007, 02:03 PM
Milton is one of the hardest worker's on the team. And we can't hang the guy for signing a $27 million contract. I have a feeling many of you would sign it also, whether you felt you deserved it or not. Milton busts his butt, he just DOESN'T have it anymore, plain and simple. He's a good guy, his teammates love him, and I feel more sorry for him than I do anything. He was one hell of a pitcher before injuries struck.

dsmith421
04-18-2007, 02:11 PM
He was one hell of a pitcher before injuries struck.

No, he wasn't. He had a 4.75 ERA lifetime before joining the Reds. He's never been an elite pitcher under any rubric.

cincrazy
04-18-2007, 02:25 PM
I didn't say elite. But the guy was a good pitcher with the Twins. A Hall of Famer? Of course not. But not a bad pitcher by any stretch of the imagination. My problem is, people pile on this guy because of his contract. The contract isn't his fault, point the finger at Dan O'Brien and Carl Lindner. I just think sometimes the attacks on player's get a little bit too personal