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Chip R
04-18-2007, 10:14 AM
I guess everyone else but EE can get away with not hustling. :rolleyes:

http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070418/SPT05/704180325/1035

BRM
04-18-2007, 10:17 AM
Narron got on him a little but that's it.



Narron had some words for Phillips as he walked from third to the dugout after the inning was over, but the Reds manager did allow Phillips back on the field to finish the game.

"I told him I was thankful he made it to third base, because I would have hated for him to not been in there in the ninth inning," Narron said. "I thought it was out. The only thing I can tell you is, as long as guys get the bases they're supposed to get, that's all I ask for."

EddieMilner
04-18-2007, 10:19 AM
I don't see it that way. He got to third, thats what he was supposed to do. I guess he could've gotten an in the park HR, but you can't get upset with a guy for a triple. He made up for his lack of hustle by busting his butt to make it where he was supposed to.

durl
04-18-2007, 10:20 AM
Here we go again... :)

Chip R
04-18-2007, 10:23 AM
He made up for his lack of hustle by busting his butt to make it where he was supposed to.


But that's it, he didn't hustle. And it's not like EE was going to be safe at 1st on that play. Narron said he wouldn't play guys who didn't hustle. No ifs, ands or buts about it. Now it's, "oh as long as they make their base, they can play." I can't see how it's anything but a double standard.

redhawkfish
04-18-2007, 10:24 AM
Here we go again... :)

Pass the popcorn!:D

BuckU
04-18-2007, 10:27 AM
There is a difference between not running hard and not running at all.

Neither a good, but one shows a complete lack of interest while the other shows a lack of judgement.

EddieMilner
04-18-2007, 10:27 AM
But that's it, he didn't hustle. And it's not like EE was going to be safe at 1st on that play. Narron said he wouldn't play guys who didn't hustle. No ifs, ands or buts about it. Now it's, "oh as long as they make their base, they can play." I can't see how it's anything but a double standard.

Could he have gotten an in the park HR on the play?

BRM
04-18-2007, 10:30 AM
There is a difference between not running hard and not running at all.

Neither a good, but one shows a complete lack of interest while the other shows a lack of judgement.

And they both show a lack of hustle. Something Narron supposedly doesn't tolerate.

BuckU
04-18-2007, 10:34 AM
And they both show a lack of hustle. Something Narron supposedly doesn't tolerate.

You are absolutely right. But Phillips did what he had to do to get to 3rd. EE didn't sprint down to first once he picked up the flight of that pop up.

It's all about righting your wrongs.

Chip R
04-18-2007, 10:38 AM
Could he have gotten an in the park HR on the play?


I don't know. It's possible if he hadn't have been slow out of the box. But it's irrelevant if he could have got an inside the park HR. He didn't hustle and Narron said guys who don't hustle would not play. Now he quantifies the statement because Phillips is one of his favorites.It's also going to give him a convenient excuse for not benching Jr. when he turns a double into a single.

flyer85
04-18-2007, 10:41 AM
"The only thing I can tell you is, as long as guys get the bases they're supposed to get, that's all I ask for."Thats an absurd standard, given the EE benching.

Because 1) EE gots the bases he was supposed to, none
and 2) it doesn't mean you have to be hustling.

EddieMilner
04-18-2007, 10:44 AM
I don't know. It's possible if he hadn't have been slow out of the box. But it's irrelevant if he could have got an inside the park HR. He didn't hustle and Narron said guys who don't hustle would not play. Now he quantifies the statement because Phillips is one of his favorites.It's also going to give him a convenient excuse for not benching Jr. when he turns a double into a single.

You are saying that a guy hitting a pop up, not picking it up right away, but once he does see it stays in the batters box and never moves is the same as a guy hitting a ball he thinks is out then realizes its not out, and gets a triple?

I see a difference between them. They were both misjudgments. The difference is, once BP figured out he misjudged he busted his butt to get to third. Once EE figured out he misjudged it, he stayed in the batters box and did nothing.

To me there is a difference.

BRM
04-18-2007, 10:44 AM
Basically, Narron has just put caveats on hustling.

Hoosier Red
04-18-2007, 10:48 AM
I think EE was the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak. After seeing sluggish and sloppy play for the better part of 3 days, Narron removed EE from the game and talked to him about it.

In the midst of an 11 run outburst, forgive Narron for being a little more lax.

flyer85
04-18-2007, 10:51 AM
I think EE was the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak. After seeing sluggish and sloppy play for the better part of 3 days, Narron removed EE from the game and talked to him about it.

In the midst of an 11 run outburst, forgive Narron for being a little more lax.you either apply the consistently or you don't. When you don't they become meaningless because nobody knows when you are going to choose to enforce them.

minus5
04-18-2007, 10:55 AM
http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/touchstone_pictures/the_waterboy/kathy_bates/kathybates.jpg

Jerry Narron is the Devil!

Chip R
04-18-2007, 10:58 AM
You are saying that a guy hitting a pop up, not picking it up right away, but once he does see it stays in the batters box and never moves is the same as a guy hitting a ball he thinks is out then realizes its not out, and gets a triple?

I see a difference between them. They were both misjudgments. The difference is, once BP figured out he misjudged he busted his butt to get to third. Once EE figured out he misjudged it, he stayed in the batters box and did nothing.

To me there is a difference.


Did BP hustle or not?

BRM
04-18-2007, 11:00 AM
Did BP hustle or not?

Not at first. Apparently it's okay to not hustle as long as you make up for it later.

flyer85
04-18-2007, 11:01 AM
Did BP hustle or not?... only after the ball bounced off the wall.

BRM
04-18-2007, 11:04 AM
... only after the ball bounced off the wall.

There's one of the caveats. You can lollygag and showboat as long as you start running once you realize you've screwed up. Nevermind that it likely cost you a base. I guess you can call it selective hustling.

Highlifeman21
04-18-2007, 11:04 AM
Basically, Narron has just put caveats on hustling.

And in doing so, revealed his dislike for EE.

I fear for EE's future with the Reds while Narron's at the helm.

membengal
04-18-2007, 11:06 AM
And in doing so, revealed his dislike for EE.

I fear for EE's future with the Reds while Narron's at the helm.

Yup. What we saw previewed last season.

RFS62
04-18-2007, 11:07 AM
I can't think of a single team I've ever seen in which the manager treated all the players exactly the same.

BRM
04-18-2007, 11:07 AM
And in doing so, revealed his dislike for EE.


Impossible. Narron has expressed much love for EE in newspaper interviews. ;)

BRM
04-18-2007, 11:10 AM
Looks to me like Narron's hustle or you don't play rule is nothing but an empty threat.

osuceltic
04-18-2007, 11:12 AM
They clearly see some work ethic/attitude/approach issues with Edwin that they're trying to correct. You really can't criticize Phillips for those things. He's one of the real gamers on this team.

And I think EE is in danger of punching a ticket out of Cincinnati. Not saying it's the right move, but I think they want to get Hamilton in the lineup without getting Freel out of it (as has been said many times, Freel is the team's only true leadoff hitter). I think Edwin could be the odd man out and trade bait by the deadline.

If anyone listened to the radio broadcast last night, it's pretty obvious that those close to the team see this as a little more than just Freel going back to super-sub duty. It may not play out that way, but that's the way they see it right now.

BRM
04-18-2007, 11:14 AM
If anyone listened to the radio broadcast last night, it's pretty obvious that those close to the team see this as a little more than just Freel going back to super-sub duty. It may not play out that way, but that's the way they see it right now.

I listened to the radio broadcast. Marty is no fan of Freel at 3B. He wasn't ripping him per say, but you could tell he's not a fan of Freel's defense at 3B.

coachw513
04-18-2007, 11:23 AM
You are absolutely right. But Phillips did what he had to do to get to 3rd. EE didn't sprint down to first once he picked up the flight of that pop up.

It's all about righting your wrongs.

Never let 1 mistake become 2...a mantra of coaches everywhere, myself included...

You turned it over, get your butt back on defense...

You slanted inside and gambled, hustle your butt downfield and make the tackle...

You started loafing, but saw the ball hit the wall, bust your butt and get to 3rd base...

texasdave
04-18-2007, 11:27 AM
Never let 1 mistake become 2...a mantra of coaches everywhere, myself included...

You turned it over, get your butt back on defense...

You slanted inside and gambled, hustle your butt downfield and make the tackle...

You started loafing, but saw the ball hit the wall, bust your butt and get to 3rd base...

To put it into Redszone perspective:

You showed some man-love for Milton, now hit that Edit button and get with the program. :)

Far East
04-18-2007, 11:34 AM
...You can lollygag and showboat as long as you start running once you realize you've screwed up. Nevermind that it likely cost you a base...
A. What if Phillips had been forced to hold up at second with a double, or had been thrown out at third? Would he then have been benched?

B. Was it not Brandon's showboating reputation about which Narron first spoke to Phillips upon his joining the Reds? Something about wanting more substance and less "style" from the ex-Indian?

C. I think that on two ground balls on which Phillips deftly charged and scooped in front of the bag, Brandon's "stylish" "no-look" flip behind him towards the SS cost the Reds a force out (involving Castro in one of the previous recent games) and a DP (involving Gonzales Tuesday night). Granted, they were extremely difficult plays for an average athlete, but personally I would have expected more substance, less style, and a better result from one of the best MI athletes I've ever seen. Obviously, this instance if not from lack of hustle.

Dunner44
04-18-2007, 11:35 AM
They clearly see some work ethic/attitude/approach issues with Edwin that they're trying to correct. You really can't criticize Phillips for those things. He's one of the real gamers on this team.

And I think EE is in danger of punching a ticket out of Cincinnati. Not saying it's the right move, but I think they want to get Hamilton in the lineup without getting Freel out of it (as has been said many times, Freel is the team's only true leadoff hitter). I think Edwin could be the odd man out and trade bait by the deadline.

If anyone listened to the radio broadcast last night, it's pretty obvious that those close to the team see this as a little more than just Freel going back to super-sub duty. It may not play out that way, but that's the way they see it right now.

Edwin's outburst against the Cubbies didn't help anything either. Not that it wasn't justified, but it was another example of him winding up on sports center for the wrong reasons, and I don't know if Jerry has a lot of patience for that kind of stuff.

membengal
04-18-2007, 11:37 AM
It's funny, one person's "outburst" is another person's "passion". For my part, I loved seeing him heated about the call. He's struggling, he knows he's struggling, and is fighting to escape the slow start. I appreciated his display of emotion and would have been more discouraged if he had just accepted the bad call...

Dunner44
04-18-2007, 11:44 AM
It's funny, one person's "outburst" is another person's "passion". For my part, I loved seeing him heated about the call. He's struggling, he knows he's struggling, and is fighting to escape the slow start. I appreciated his display of emotion and would have been more discouraged if he had just accepted the bad call...

I'm glad he argued the call... to not do so would have been a crime. But slamming all of his equipment on the ground is no good. Its like when pitchers trash the dugouts. There are other ways to express your anger, and other avenues to use to argue calls. And then there are the players who are too "passoniate" like Big Z. He gets in trouble a lot when he cares too much about a call.

Chip R
04-18-2007, 11:55 AM
I can't think of a single team I've ever seen in which the manager treated all the players exactly the same.


True. But when a manager says for the record that anyone who doesn't hustle will not play without exception, I tend to believe that if you don't hustle, you don't play. I didn't think it meant that you could loaf at first then hustle and it's OK. I didn't think it only applied to young Hispanic players.

The wheels are being greased for EE to be sent out of town sure as I'm sitting here. I've seen it before. Young player comes on the scene and he's praised for his hard work and dedication and after a couple of years, if he's not producing, there starts to be whispers about how he doesn't work hard. Then when he's finally shipped out of town, he becomes the object of ridicule and scorn and there will be stories about how he was a lazy player and how much better off they are without that player. It happened with Pokey - although he did help dig his own grave, it happened with WMP, Kearns and Lopez and the same thing is happening with EE. It's just a matter of time.

BuckU
04-18-2007, 12:43 PM
Not at first. Apparently it's okay to not hustle as long as you make up for it later.


Yes you are pretty much right. Don't fool yourself and think that Phillips had an inside the park homer. Berry woudln't have sent him; not at that point in the game with that score. Nothing was lost here. Phillips ended up on third no matter if I jogged up the first base line or not. My money is on the fact that he realized he wasn't hustling, then went all out to correct it.

What EE did was different. Once he picked up the ball he should have ran it out. What if the fielder dropped the ball and had the thorw to first base? EE would still have been watching from the batters box. He did nothing to correct his mistake.

It's all about bad judgment recognition...

pedro
04-18-2007, 12:54 PM
I don't necessarily agree with Narron pulling EE from the game the other day but I don't equate what he did and what Phillips did as exactly the same thing either. As for EE, IMO he seemed to be sleepwalking through the first week of the season and I think it's the managers prerogative to shake a guy's cage if that's what he thinks is going on. I've seen Bobby Cox pull Andruw Jones from CF in the middle of an inning for not hustling on a single into the OF. Managers do do that sometimes.

REDREAD
04-18-2007, 12:58 PM
I don't see it that way. He got to third, thats what he was supposed to do. I guess he could've gotten an in the park HR, but you can't get upset with a guy for a triple. He made up for his lack of hustle by busting his butt to make it where he was supposed to.


On the other hand, EdE was supposed to get zero bases since the ball was caught.. Appliying that logic, EdE shouldn't have been yanked from the game since it was an out anyhow, and he "got the bases he was supposed to".

REDREAD
04-18-2007, 01:01 PM
And I think EE is in danger of punching a ticket out of Cincinnati. Not saying it's the right move, but I think they want to get Hamilton in the lineup without getting Freel out of it

I agree with your speculation. This fits in with an earlier rumor thread (forget the source) which speculated the Reds might be shopping EdE and moving Freel back to 3b.

We've seen what happens when Wayne shops a player he's not particularly fond of, and the results aren't good.

bucksfan2
04-18-2007, 01:04 PM
If you thought EE's defense was bad at 3rd last year, just wait until Freel plays there this year.

jimbo
04-18-2007, 02:02 PM
I think there is just as much hypocrisy on this board when a situation concerns EE than what many are accusing Narron of. If situations were reversed and it was anyone else on this team who had gotten benched during that game in Arizona for not running out a popout, the majority of this board would have had no problem with it. But for some reason, EE seems to be untouchable and can do no wrong when it comes to RedsZone.

KittyDuran
04-18-2007, 02:28 PM
http://thep03.sytes.net/reds_gallery/gal/2007/Regular%20Season/April/Milwaukee%20Brewers%20vs%20Cincinnati%20Reds%20-%20April%2017th/14.jpg

redsmetz
04-18-2007, 02:48 PM
I agree with the poster who noted that there were clear differences between the two circumstances. Now for those who continually say that the Reds are going to ship out EE because WK or JN dislike him, I just don't see that. Jerry Narron, every chance I see, speaks highly of Edwin. I think, short of something stellar bowling us over, that EE's here for a while. And Ryan Freel taking some balls at third (and spelling Eddie last night) is not going to replace him. Freel's value remains as the super-sub, something he's saying himself.

I(heart)Freel
04-18-2007, 02:51 PM
I think EE's benching had as much to do with the half-hearted bunt attempts the night before as it did the pop-up in question.

It was something Jerry saw as a trend, so he did what a two-testicled manager is supposed to do: nip it before it becomes a big problem.

I'm ok with it and would expect him to do something as drastic if Brandon watches one of his hits again during this homestand.

And speaking of watching from the batter's box, how is it a trained monkey like me can plainly see that the ball is NOT carrying yet this year, especially in this ballpark. Why in Sam Hell is anyone watching anything from the batters box? Nine out of every 10 well hit balls seem to be hanging up.

My two pennies.

Crosley68
04-18-2007, 03:27 PM
Again, unprofessional. Deal with it or excuse it.....those are the only 2 choices. This "60 degrees of shading" that exsists is intolerable to me.

Matt700wlw
04-18-2007, 04:12 PM
Me, being the fair and unbiased one that I am (;)) thinks Jerry is insulting our intelligence.

This isn't EE standing in the batters box on a pop up bad, but, it still goes against the "you better hustle" stuff he preaches.

bucksfan2
04-18-2007, 04:38 PM
Jerry sent a message with the EE thing that he was going to be more of a diciplinarian this year. That he wasn't going to put up with some of the stuff in the past. I think he completly destroyed that with Phillips last night. If you ask me Phillips is about as important of a cog as EE is to this team's success this year and why send a message to one yet not the other?

BRM
04-18-2007, 04:46 PM
This isn't EE standing in the batters box on a pop up bad, but, it still goes against the "you better hustle" stuff he preaches.

This is the point I was trying to make earlier in the thread. I know what Phillips did wasn't as bad as what EE did and I know the situations are a little different. However, Jerry's stance was "hustle or sit" after EE's incident. Now it seems the stance is that a lack of hustle is alright as long as you hustle later.

kaldaniels
04-18-2007, 06:24 PM
I don't know if this has been discussed, but this is Narron's quote about Phillips' triple from C Trents blog.

"I told him I was thankful he made it to third base, because I would have hated for him to not been in there in the ninth inning," Narron said. "I thought it was out. The only thing I can tell you is, as long as guys get the bases they're supposed to get, that's all I ask for."

Thats fair enough if you ask me.

BRM
04-18-2007, 06:28 PM
I don't know if this has been discussed, but this is Narron's quote about Phillips' triple from C Trents blog.

"I told him I was thankful he made it to third base, because I would have hated for him to not been in there in the ninth inning," Narron said. "I thought it was out. The only thing I can tell you is, as long as guys get the bases they're supposed to get, that's all I ask for."

Thats fair enough if you ask me.

That's the very quote that caused this thread.

Matt700wlw
04-18-2007, 06:29 PM
So if Phillips ran to third first instead of first, does that count as making it to the right base? :D

kaldaniels
04-18-2007, 06:29 PM
That's the very quote that caused this thread.

E - K Daniels.

BRM
04-18-2007, 06:30 PM
So if Phillips ran to third first instead of first, does that count as making it to the right base? :D

If EE had sprinted straight to the dugout that night, would that have been sufficient?

reds1869
04-18-2007, 06:40 PM
As some one who works with young, talented people (read: BIG fragile egos) I can't necessarily blame Narron. He knows his players far better than we do. EE will react far differently than Phillips. Anyone who has ever coached or taught knows that you have rules, but if you are honest with yourself you don't apply them the same way to everyone all the time.

I was ticked at Phillips for not hustling, but in the end he got the job done and the game was out of hand. Edwin stood and watched a pop fly in a tight game, and that is inexcusable.

OnBaseMachine
04-18-2007, 07:33 PM
Jerry Narron is a huge hypocrite.

That's all I got.

pedro
04-18-2007, 07:43 PM
Jerry Narron is a huge hypocrite.

That's all I got.


I just think a lot of folks here hate Narron and Krivsky so much that they parse and dissect every word Narron and Krivsky say to the point that there is no way they can open their mouths w/out someone questioning them. And then when they don't talk, they're accused of not being forthcoming. RZ is sure a tough crowd to please.

Chip R
04-18-2007, 07:44 PM
I don't know if this has been discussed, but this is Narron's quote about Phillips' triple from C Trents blog.

"I told him I was thankful he made it to third base, because I would have hated for him to not been in there in the ninth inning," Narron said. "I thought it was out. The only thing I can tell you is, as long as guys get the bases they're supposed to get, that's all I ask for."

Thats fair enough if you ask me.


And EE thought his ball was foul. So he gets benched and Brandon gets a talking to. Yeah. That's real fair.

The question her is did Brandon hustle out of the box. The answer is no he didn't. At least EE thought his ball was foul. Brandon was just trying to style on what he knew was a fair ball. Everything I ever learned about baseball is when you hit the ball fair, you run. If you don't run, you're loafing. What if the OFer fell down? What if his throw was wide of 3rd base? Brandon could have scored but because he loafed out of the box, it wouldn't have happened. Narron has a double standard just as plain as day. I know he says he loves EE but I bet EE wishes he would quit loving him so much.

Always Red
04-18-2007, 07:44 PM
This is the point I was trying to make earlier in the thread. I know what Phillips did wasn't as bad as what EE did and I know the situations are a little different. However, Jerry's stance was "hustle or sit" after EE's incident. Now it seems the stance is that a lack of hustle is alright as long as you hustle later.

That's my take on it, too, BRM.

I was there last night, and was busy following the ball, slack-jawed (he killed it, I swear the thing jumped and then knuckled back down), as it hit the CF wall; I did not notice BP not running at the time, but I do believe what I've read since.

I was more put out with his "no look, behind the back, pitch-flip" on a possible DP ball last night, earlier in the game- what kind of crap was that?? I hope now that Brandon is feeling more comfortable here in Cincinnati, that he doesn't revert back to the "bad-boy Brandon" of Cleveland infamy. He said and did all of the right things last year, and made many fans for himself in the process.

After thinking about this for a while, I can understand how Junior has a different standard than some of the younger guys. It might not be fair, but that's just how it is. I don't understand a different standard for EE and BP. All I can guess is that Phillips eventually ran, and EE did not, and that was Narron's deciding line, at that point, in his mind.

If I'm the manager, I put Freel at 2B tonight, EE at 3B, and Hammy in CF. Just to make a small point with Brandon. Then the next night I put EE and BP both back in and leave them there, to give them some love, and build their confidence back up. But I can understand using the same lineup tonight as last night; it's the most hits this team has had since August, I'd bet.

pedro
04-18-2007, 07:46 PM
But Chip, once EE realized that the ball was fair he just stood there. That's not excusing Phillips' show boating but it's just not the same thing IMO.

Ltlabner
04-18-2007, 07:47 PM
I was more put out with his "no look, behind the back, pitch-flip" on a possible DP ball last night, earlier in the game- what kind of crap was that?? I hope now that Brandon is feeling more comfortable here in Cincinnati, that he doesn't revert back to the "bad-boy Brandon" of Cleveland infamy. He said and did all of the right things last year, and made many fans for himself in the process.

That was durring the small portion of the game I got to see. I also thought that was a bad decision on his part.

pedro
04-18-2007, 07:48 PM
That's my take on it, too, BRM.



I was more put out with his "no look, behind the back, pitch-flip" on a possible DP ball last night, earlier in the game- what kind of crap was that?? I hope now that Brandon is feeling more comfortable here in Cincinnati, that he doesn't revert back to the "bad-boy Brandon" of Cleveland infamy. He said and did all of the right things last year, and made many fans for himself in the process.



To be fair to Phillips I think that's the only way that play gets made. It just didn't work.

OnBaseMachine
04-18-2007, 07:48 PM
I just think a lot of folks here hate Narron and Krivsky so much that they parse and dissect every word Narron and Krivsky say to the point that there is no way they can open their mouths w/out someone questioning them. And then when they don't talk, they're accused of not being forthcoming. RZ is sure a tough crowd to please.

I don't hate anyone, but I don't like Narron because of stuff like this. Benching EdE for not hustling and then looking the other way on Griffey and Phillips is hypocritical. I don't think any of them should have been benched, but if he's going to bench one then he should bench them all. BTW, I like Krivsky. I'm not one of those people you are referring to.

membengal
04-18-2007, 07:48 PM
I thought it was the only chance they had to turn that DP, to try and get it done quick enough. I thought it was done out of necessity...

Ltlabner
04-18-2007, 07:52 PM
I thought it was the only chance they had to turn that DP, to try and get it done quick enough. I thought it was done out of necessity...

Yea, that very well could be. It really wasn't the end of the world.

pedro
04-18-2007, 07:57 PM
I don't hate anyone, but I don't like Narron because of stuff like this. Benching EdE for not hustling and then looking the other way on Griffey and Phillips is hypocritical. I don't think any of them should have been benched, but if he's going to bench one then he should bench them all. BTW, I like Krivsky. I'm not one of those people you are referring to.

Yeah, Phillips showboated out of the box but he also GOT A TRIPLE.

EE just stood there, even after he knew it was a fair ball.

But really it's not just about those two plays, it's about a pattern of behavior and from where I sit EE been a little "sleepy" so far this year in way that is very reminiscent of D'Angelo Jimenez. Look at that AB where he was asked to bunt the night before.

Now do I agree with pulling EE from the game or publicly reprimanding EE? Not really. But OTOH, I'm not cool with players acting like they don't give a crap out there either.

I really like EE and I think he's got a good future, hopefully for the Reds, but I just don't agree that Narron is ruining him as some others feel. If EE, or any other player for that matter, can't take some criticism and adversity then they're not going to be able to survive in the majors anyway.

Always Red
04-18-2007, 07:57 PM
To be fair to Phillips I think that's the only way that play gets made. It just didn't work.

You're right, it would have been a very difficult play, and he certainly would not have had time to field, pivot and then throw. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. One of the only bad things about being physically at the game is that you only see things once. They are notoriously bad at showing any replays at the ballpark.

I was sitting in 526 last night, and I had to wait to get home to confirm, here at Redszone, that someone actually reached over the fence and caught Griffey's shot off the wall in the first inning, for a ground rule double. No announcement, no replay, no nothing. Looked like a HR from 600 feet away!

jfar23
04-18-2007, 08:00 PM
Not that Griffey has hit any homers this year anyway but he needs to lead by example as a veteran player and a future hall of famer. Narron shouldn't have to say anything to Griffey or Dunn or any other veterans and they should enforce to the younger players.

RFS62
04-18-2007, 08:17 PM
I just think a lot of folks here hate Narron and Krivsky so much that they parse and dissect every word Narron and Krivsky say to the point that there is no way they can open their mouths w/out someone questioning them. And then when they don't talk, they're accused of not being forthcoming. RZ is sure a tough crowd to please.



I couldn't possibly agree more.

What if Sweet Lou was the manager of the Reds and had dispensed the tough love?

I'd bet there would be a line of posters praising him.

reds44
04-18-2007, 11:00 PM
"I told him I was thankful he made it to third base, because I would have hated for him to not been in there in the ninth inning," Narron said. "I thought it was out. The only thing I can tell you is, as long as guys get the bases they're supposed to get, that's all I ask for."
So was Edwin supposed to somehow get on base on the pop out to 2nd base?

Oh well, maybe we'll see more of Freel, and his 2 errors in 2 nights, at 3rd tomorrow.

BuckU
04-19-2007, 10:12 AM
So was Edwin supposed to somehow get on base on the pop out to 2nd base?

Oh well, maybe we'll see more of Freel, and his 2 errors in 2 nights, at 3rd tomorrow.


No, but it would have been nice of seeing the effort of running to 1st in the even the ball was dropped or something to that effect. I know, I know...it's a lot to ask...

Say what you want about Freel. In no situation is a error good, but as a fan they are easier to digest if the player making them is giving full effort on both sides of the ball.

Chip R
04-19-2007, 10:20 AM
http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070419/SPT05/704190333/1035

Narron drawing a perilous line

Column by The Post's Lonnie Wheeler

On the potentially touchy subject of hustling and double standards and all that, the rest of us had already warmed up Jerry Narron. We asked him about Brandon Phillips standing and watching the home run that fell a base short, and how, in Narron's managerial estimation, that compared to what Edwin Encarnacion was yanked out of the game for. And yes, we asked him about Ken Griffey Jr.'s notorious tendency to trot out ground balls, and where that fits in with this business of "playing the game the right way," as the skipper insists upon.

But leave it to Marty Brennaman to dispense with the dancing-around and get down and dirty and right to the real question, the hyper-sensitive scenario that we all suspect is coming.

"What happens," posed the voice of the Reds, with his tape recorder running for Wednesday's pregame show, "if Ken Griffey Jr. hits a ground ball on the infield and he jogs to first base, which he does most of the time, and the shortstop errors the ball but has time to throw him out because he wasn't running hard?"

And what Narron said was this:

"We'll definitely talk about it, and he probably won't be out there for a little bit. So we'll see. I just hope it doesn't happen."

Does he ever.

Out of principle and best intentions, the Reds' manager has made his own bed of haircloth. Because discipline is often best expressed as an art form, he didn't do it, necessarily, when he punished Encarnacion for standing at home plate on a pop fly. There remained an opening for Narron to patiently explain that no two of his 25 guys are quite alike in their precedents and proclivities.

Wednesday, however - even before he set down the prickly example of Griffey - he expressly declined that option.

"I think everybody should have the same standard," he stated instead. "I respect what everybody's ever done in the past in this game; I respect what the younger guys might do in the future; but it's all about right now, playing the game the right way each game. That's all you can go by."

My personal disagreement on that score doesn't matter a whit. Having coached kids - who aren't as different from Narron's men as you might think - I've found that each one fosters in the authority figure a separate threshold of tolerance; that a season brings with it a different running dialogue with every player; that, at some point, Jim Bob might cross a line that hasn't even been drawn for Joe Bob. The case could be made that, on a big-league ballclub, a double standard is not enough; that for a 25-man roster there ought to be 25 standards.

But Narron, as of Wednesday, has sent the philosophical arguments to the bench like a young third baseman who neglects to leave the batter's box. He has taken the slack right out of the rope.

"People in Cincinnati saw Pete Rose for 100 years," he said. "That's the way the game should be played. This was always the organization of Charlie Hustle, and that's what I want it to get back to being.

"The biggest reason to play the game the right way is it's going to be a close division, right down to the wire. Every play's going to mean something. We've got to get every base we can possibly get, every base that the other team gives us. We just cannot dog any plays."

And yet, there's Griffey and the ground balls and the single he slugged off the wall on the last homestand, before the Encarnacion episode. There was Phillips and the delayed triple. After the latter, Narron stepped out of the dugout to have some words with his young second baseman; but there was no benching.

"My big thing," he submitted, "is to get the base you're supposed to get."

Fortunately for Phillips, he managed to do that Tuesday night, even after loping along until his long fly smacked off the upper face of the wall. Also fortunately for Phillips, he realized how close he had come to a punishable offense. Wednesday night, as a similar drive bounced off the top of the same fence for a home run, the lively infielder was going full-bore around the bases.

It bears noting, as well, that Griffey - whose effort in the outfield has never been impugned - leaped to catch a ball over the wall Wednesday night. He also raced to his left to snag another on the run.

But for him, of course, that's not the issue.

For him, in fact, there might not be an issue, were it not for the policy paper that Narron authored Wednesday evening in the Cincinnati dugout.

It was bold of the Reds' manager, and commendably uncompromising.

And as perilous as his right fielder is proud.

BRM
04-19-2007, 10:24 AM
"I think everybody should have the same standard," he stated instead.


Well, we already know he doesn't practice what he preaches here.



"My big thing," he submitted, "is to get the base you're supposed to get."



Like I said, EE should have sprinted to the dugout. That's the only base he was going to get on his popup.

BuckU
04-19-2007, 12:40 PM
Like I said, EE should have sprinted to the dugout. That's the only base he was going to get on his popup.

I'm not understanding your stance on this. It was a pop up in FAIR territory! There are a whole plethora of variables that could have led to him being safe; even on a pop up.

So anytime a player hits a weak pop up they should just assume it's an out and trot right on back to the dug out?

BRM
04-19-2007, 12:43 PM
I'm not understanding your stance on this. It was a pop up in FAIR territory! There are a whole plethora of variables that could have led to him being safe; even on a pop up.

So anytime a player hits a weak pop up they should just assume it's an out and trot right on back to the dug out?

He thought it was a foul ball but that's not the point. Narron says a lack of hustle is okay as long as you end up acquiring the bases you were supposed to. That's the quote I was "picking on". The only thing EE was going to acquire was a seat on the bench because his popup was caught.

RFS62
04-19-2007, 12:53 PM
It would be a wonderful world if everyone did what they're supposed to do...... if all Narron had to do was voice his displeasure once, and everyone would fall right into line.

How nice if all these high-paid studs living out our dreams had the same baseball instincts as Pete Rose.

They don't. They never will. They all grew up with a sense of entitlement that ballplayers of years gone by seldom had.

Things are different, although this problem is as old as baseball itself.

None of this excuses not hustling.

So now, Narron is subjected to the cross-examination and scrutiny of the public and press, all looking for a contradiction or a chance to catch him in a mistake or poorly worded explanation.

If I were Narron, I'd tell the press to shut the hell up. I'm running this team, and its performance is my responsibility, as well as my ticket out of here if they don't perform to maximum ability. How he achieves that will ultimately determine his fate.

I don't think he owes us an explanation, much less being subjected to a cross-examination by Marty or anyone else in the press.

How would Marty like it if we deposed him on the personnel changes in the radio and TV booth, after the numerous duplicitious remarks which made the press during that process?

Chip R
04-19-2007, 01:00 PM
It would be a wonderful world if everyone did what they're supposed to do...... if all Narron had to do was voice his displeasure once, and everyone would fall right into line.

How nice if all these high-paid studs living out our dreams had the same baseball instincts as Pete Rose.

They don't. They never will. They all grew up with a sense of entitlement that ballplayers of years gone by seldom had.

Things are different, although this problem is as old as baseball itself.

None of this excuses not hustling.

So now, Narron is subjected to the cross-examination and scrutiny of the public and press, all looking for a contradiction or a chance to catch him in a mistake or poorly worded explanation.

If I were Narron, I'd tell the press to shut the hell up. I'm running this team, and its performance is my responsibility, as well as my ticket out of here if they don't perform to maximum ability. How he achieves that will ultimately determine his fate.

I don't think he owes us an explanation, much less being subjected to a cross-examination by Marty or anyone else in the press.

How would Marty like it if we deposed him on the personnel changes in the radio and TV booth, after the numerous duplicitious remarks which made the press during that process?


He made his bed, now he's going to have to lie in it. Pun intended.

BuckU
04-19-2007, 01:06 PM
He thought it was a foul ball but that's not the point. Narron says a lack of hustle is okay as long as you end up acquiring the bases you were supposed to. That's the quote I was "picking on". The only thing EE was going to acquire was a seat on the bench because his popup was caught.


Okay, I got you. But I do think Narron's comments of "getting to the base you are supposed to" were specific to the Phillips situation.

MaineRed
04-19-2007, 01:07 PM
I don't think he owes us an explanation, much less being subjected to a cross-examination by Marty or anyone else in the press.

How would Marty like it if we deposed him on the personnel changes in the radio and TV booth, after the numerous duplicitious remarks which made the press during that process?

How come Marty has never applied to manage the Reds? You listen to he and his kid and you'd think running a big league team took about as much effort as pumping gas. Why aren't these two managing somewhere?

MaineRed
04-19-2007, 01:23 PM
He made his bed, now he's going to have to lie in it. Pun intended.

And this making him lie in it helps the Reds, how?

M2
04-19-2007, 01:25 PM
A good manager needs to have 25 standards, not one. He should be trying to get the most out of each player on his team. What works for Player A might not work for Player B. Though I agree with the notion that players should be expected to play heads up baseball as a rule and running 90 feet isn't that onerous a request. Yet Narron's now put himself in a no-win situation. He either has to get draconian with his entire team or he makes the Encarnacion incident look like a needless public flogging.

Some other thoughts:

- The problem I have with Narron's handling of Encarnacion is it doesn't seem focused on getting the most out of the kid. In fact, Narron's management of Encarnacion often strikes me as counterproductive.

- If Jr. can't run the 90 feet to 1B on a consistent basis, and I agree with those who've pointed out that it's impractical to expect it of him, then it's time to face some realities: his health is too tenuous to put load much responsibility on his shoulder and if a guy can't run those 90 feet to 1B then you're probably looking at someone who should be a part-time/role player (or possibly a DH, but those bad legs better come attached to big OPS numbers).

- There seems to be a bit of a new regime/old regime split in how the players get handled. There seems to be less confidence in guys like Encarnacion and Dunn (who are two regimes removed). They seem to have to earn more while players like Phillips get a little more leeway and handed responsibility in the hopes that they'll step up. That's not terribly unusual, but the Reds can't afford to mishandle talented players.

smith288
04-19-2007, 01:36 PM
A) Managing a baseball team isnt a democracy
B) Life's just not fair sometimes.

RFS62
04-19-2007, 02:08 PM
Well said, M2.

Another thing comes to mind. We have no idea what has gone on behind the scenes with any of these players. We have no idea what the coaching staff has decided among themselves about any individual.

All we see is what happens on the field, and in the dugout.

There may not be any more to the story than that. On the other hand, there could be a lot more which could add a lot to the story.

In my opinion, Narron took one for the team here. You can bet your bottom dollar here that he wishes Junior and Brandon and whoever else doesn't put him in a position like this.

But he took one for Junior by not calling him out and joining in with Marty in roasting him. That's not something to be ashamed of.... it's something I respect him for. He's taking the heat on this by not calling Junior out. All part of the process that every manager has to employ. You don't treat all the players the same way, it's just that simple.

TeamSelig
04-19-2007, 02:09 PM
Griffey is a veteran and a future HOFer, I can understand some leniancy (sp?) for any lack of hustle here and there.

Chip R
04-19-2007, 02:24 PM
And this making him lie in it helps the Reds, how?


You don't think he should be held accountable for his remarks?

pedro
04-19-2007, 02:27 PM
You don't think he should be held accountable for his remarks?

I don't.

I do think he should stop talking about it though and just say "no comment, that's stuff we handle In-house" b/c as soon as any manager starts talking about this type of stuff every Tom, Dick, and Harry who thinks they know better about how to manage employees gets their panties in a bunch.

HUHUH
04-19-2007, 02:33 PM
Griffey is a veteran and a future HOFer, I can understand some leniancy (sp?) for any lack of hustle here and there.

HERE AND THERE? Griffey has been dogging it since he first put on a Reds uniform. He is the poster boy for not hustling down the baseline. I say "go Jerry, go Jerry...", but you better bench Griffey's butt next time he does it too.
And why is it that all of a sudden Narron has the guts to call guys out for hustle, move Griffey to right, drop Griffey in the order, etc? Where were those guts the last couple of years? Methinx it has something to do with Krivsky and/or (probably more likely) Castellini.

As for the debate about whether some guys have earned the right to dog it sometimes, or if dogging it doesn't affect the outcome of the play then its OK; I've got one thing to say.

THERE IS ONLY ONE THING A POSITION PLAYER IN BASEBALL HAS COMPLETE CONTROL OVER: HOW HARD HE PLAYS. IF YOU CAN'T RUN HARD FOR 90 FEET A FEW TIMES A NIGHT, AND IF YOU CAN'T DO YOUR BEST TO MAKE EVERY PLAY IN THE FIELD, GO HOME.

Chip R
04-19-2007, 02:40 PM
I don't.

So if he says that Hamilton is going to play CF every day and then he benches him, you don't think he should answer any questions about that? This is the same thing. It's not about hustling or not hustling or who looks like who's having fun out there and who doesn't, it's about Narron saying something and then doing the opposite.


I do think he should stop talking about it though and just say "no comment, that's stuff we handle In-house" b/c as soon as any manager starts talking about this type of stuff every Tom, Dick, and Harry who thinks they know better about how to manage employees gets their panties in a bunch.


I think that would be a good idea too. But he keeps saying that there's one standard for everyone. Everyone. Not one for Jr. and everyone else, everyone. If he said that Jr. gets a break because he has bad legs, I'd be fine with that. I'm sure some fans and people in the media wouldn't but I'd at least applaud Narron for being true to his word. It's only natural for someone to question an inconsistancy. Narron left himself open to this last week and now Phillips' mistake has raised questions about it. Do you believe that the media should have just ignored Phillips' gaffe in light of what Narron said? This time it was Phillips. Next time it may be Jr. I may not agree with Marty a lot but all he was asking was what everyone was thinking.

pedro
04-19-2007, 02:45 PM
So if he says that Hamilton is going to play CF every day and then he benches him, you don't think he should answer any questions about that? This is the same thing. It's not about hustling or not hustling or who looks like who's having fun out there and who doesn't, it's about Narron saying something and then doing the opposite.




I think that would be a good idea too. But he keeps saying that there's one standard for everyone. Everyone. Not one for Jr. and everyone else, everyone. If he said that Jr. gets a break because he has bad legs, I'd be fine with that. I'm sure some fans and people in the media wouldn't but I'd at least applaud Narron for being true to his word. It's only natural for someone to question an inconsistancy. Narron left himself open to this last week and now Phillips' mistake has raised questions about it. Do you believe that the media should have just ignored Phillips' gaffe in light of what Narron said? This time it was Phillips. Next time it may be Jr. I may not agree with Marty a lot but all he was asking was what everyone was thinking.

It's called "doublespeak" and people in positions of authority use it all the time. Apparently a lot of folks are willing to accept it, just not from Narron.

Sure I can see the obvious inconsistencies but IMO the world is not black and white no matter how much people wish it to be. I just think people are making way too big a deal about what Narron said.

M2
04-19-2007, 03:43 PM
I don't.

I do think he should stop talking about it though and just say "no comment, that's stuff we handle In-house" b/c as soon as any manager starts talking about this type of stuff every Tom, Dick, and Harry who thinks they know better about how to manage employees gets their panties in a bunch.

That's actually what I don't think he should do. I get Jimy Williams flashbacks when I hear stuff like that. Narron doesn't need to be a crazed, shut-in, conspiracy theory manager. Williams said nothing about nothing to anybody and it came across as disdain for everybody. It translates to fans as "Why don't you just shut up and go away?"

Smith covered it pretty well:


A) Managing a baseball team isnt a democracy
B) Life's just not fair sometimes.

That's what Casey Stengel woud have said. Then he'd have gone off on a fascinating tangent. And if a broadcaster or reporter had asked if he was going to do the same to Jr. he'd have explained that just because he made that move in that one spot with Encarnacion, it doesn't mean that's going to become some sort of policy.Then he'd have gone off on a fascinating tangent.

pedro
04-19-2007, 04:11 PM
I get the feel that fascinating tangents aren't in Narron's repertoire.

MaineRed
04-20-2007, 06:08 PM
You don't think he should be held accountable for his remarks?

What is your definition of accountable? Badgering him to death about it? Demanding answers? Like I said, that helps the Reds HOW? Do you really think that "holding Narron accountable for his words" is some benefit to this ballclub?

There is no Edwin Encarnacion conspiracy and as others have pointed out, sometimes life isn't fair.

I do find it odd that people who spend most of their day on their computer are such experts on people management.

Redsland
04-21-2007, 12:11 PM
Do you really think that "holding Narron accountable for his words" is some benefit to this ballclub?
Well, it would prevent ambiguity. And eliminate the appearance of capriciousness.

So yeah.