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Matt700wlw
04-18-2007, 04:40 PM
Freel, 3B
Hamilton, CF
Dunn, LF
Griffey, RF
Phillips, 2B
Hatteberg, 1B
Gonzalez, SS
Ross, C
Harang, P


I'd start a game thead, but that would break the new rules :D

jimbo
04-18-2007, 04:42 PM
Oh boy, here comes the meltdown. :scared:

BRM
04-18-2007, 04:42 PM
That lineup (minus Ross) scored 11 runs last night. Jerry is probably just riding it another night.

NJReds
04-18-2007, 04:43 PM
EdE is definitely not one of Narron's favorites.

Matt700wlw
04-18-2007, 04:43 PM
Can't say I blame him - it worked last night

BRM
04-18-2007, 04:47 PM
EdE is definitely not one of Narron's favorites.

Narron's words say "yes" but his actions say "no". ;)

Matt700wlw
04-18-2007, 04:48 PM
Narron's words say "yes" but his actions say "no". ;)

Like a woman :evil:

OesterPoster
04-18-2007, 04:52 PM
I wasn't ready to buy into the Narron vs. Encarnacion conspiracy just yet...but it's getting a little more obvious day-by-day.

rotnoid
04-18-2007, 04:52 PM
Narron's words say "yes" but his actions say "no". ;)

To quote Marvin Lewis, "I see better than I hear."

redsfan30
04-18-2007, 04:54 PM
Right now, I'd take Hamilton over Encarnacion in the lineup. I know people are going to call for Narron's head, but it's the right move for the time being.

jimbo
04-18-2007, 04:55 PM
I think it's just a matter of Narron putting the same lineup out there that put 11 runs on the board last night. I see no problem with going with the hot hands.

RedLegSuperStar
04-18-2007, 04:55 PM
Hamilton seems to find him a permanent spot in the line-up which is good.. in sundays game minus the strikeout he looked really good at the plate and when he swings the ball doesn't miss the bat very often.

RedLegSuperStar
04-18-2007, 04:57 PM
Freel going 4-5 last night may of had something to do with that as well.

rotnoid
04-18-2007, 04:57 PM
To quote Marvin Lewis, "I see better than I hear."

All kidding aside, the absence of another option at lead off probably plays a part here too. Hamilton clearly has to be in the line up due to his hot streak and since Freel is the only leadoff capable guy on the squad, he has to get on the field wherever they can find a hole. He's better at 3B than 2B and Griff and Dunner aren't sitting, which leaves us right here.

Reds Fanatic
04-18-2007, 04:57 PM
I don't have a problem with it for tonight. When you score 11 runs on 16 hits it is not a bad idea to use the same lineup against another right handed pitcher tonight. I would guess EE will be back tomorrow night. At this point the one thing Jerry has to do above all else is get Hamilton in the lineup every day.

BRM
04-18-2007, 04:58 PM
It's hard to come out of a slump when you're on the bench.

Hoosier Red
04-18-2007, 04:59 PM
I do think its a shame and a bit often to be a coincidence.
But if EE had gone 4-5 last night and been yanked tonight, people would be screaming bloody murder.

bucksfan2
04-18-2007, 05:01 PM
I do think its a shame and a bit often to be a coincidence.
But if EE had gone 4-5 last night and been yanked tonight, people would be screaming bloody murder.

EE seemed to get off the snide after monday's game with the big rbi hit but he found himself of the bench the next game.

dougdirt
04-18-2007, 05:04 PM
EE seemed to get off the snide after monday's game with the big rbi hit but he found himself of the bench the next game.

My thinking exactly. The guy was like 0-16 and comes up with a big RBI hit late in the game and then finds himself on the bench the next two nights.... I dont like it.

pedro
04-18-2007, 05:06 PM
otoh, freel was 4-5 last night. best ride that horse while it's hot. it won't last forever.

Matt700wlw
04-18-2007, 05:07 PM
I was worried there would be nothing to discuss today :)

BRM
04-18-2007, 05:08 PM
I was worried there would be nothing to discuss today :)

That should never be a worry around here.

Matt700wlw
04-18-2007, 05:09 PM
That should never be a worry around here.

True.

If it's a slow day, somebody can come up with something.

David Cubbedge
04-18-2007, 05:11 PM
Phillips walks to 1B which became a triple off the CF wall. Lack of hustle? I have read Narron's thoughts on it as well and I agree that he likley would not have gotten an inside the park HR there, but you have to be kidding me if he shouldn't have been reprimanded for that.

Next, Griffey's light jog to 2B on the Phillips gapper would have scored him if he were not showing that lack of hustle. Also, Phillips wouldn't have been caught in the pickle.

One of either Phillips or Griffey should be sitting tonight as did EdE after his pop out incident a week ago. Now, EdE sees them making the same mistakes and they are still starting and EdE is sitting? Your lineup for tonight should be this:

Freel CF
Hamilton RF
Dunn LF
EdE 3B
Phillips 2B
Hatteberg 1B
Gonzo SS
Ross C
Harang P

Phillips may need to stay in as he is finally starting to hit and you do not want to treat him like EdE has been treated after he finally found his stroke before later finding splinters in his butt.

I think this is a horrible call on Narron's part which will likely create division between EdE and Narron. I hate to say something is unfair and sound like a baby, but EdE has every right to think so.

David Cubbedge
04-18-2007, 05:13 PM
By the way, on a very small scale of opportunities, EdE has had better numbers against Sampson in his career than anyone on the team.

jimbo
04-18-2007, 05:15 PM
By the way, on a very small scale of opportunities, EdE has had better numbers against Sampson in his career than anyone on the team.

Yeah, based on a total of 3 at-bats.

Ludwig Reds Fan
04-18-2007, 05:16 PM
Griffey is not and has never been subject to the same rules that other Reds players are.

Why would that change now?

icehole3
04-18-2007, 05:16 PM
I think it's just a matter of Narron putting the same lineup out there that put 11 runs on the board last night. I see no problem with going with the hot hands.

I wouldnt have a problem with it at all but why isnt Valentin in there, his double iced the game IMO and the guy has been more clutch than Hamilton. There's something going on, Narron's about ruin EE.

David Cubbedge
04-18-2007, 05:18 PM
Yeah, based on a total of 3 at-bats.

As said in the post you are refering to.


on a very small scale of opportunities

But you have to admit, going 2 for 3 isn't showing a lack of ability to hit this guy either.

David Cubbedge
04-18-2007, 05:19 PM
I wouldnt have a problem with it at all but why isnt Valentin in there, his double iced the game IMO and the guy has been more clutch than Hamilton. There's something going on, Narron's about ruin EE.

I thought about the same thing, but I am pretty sure that Harang and Ross are comfortable with eachother.

Matt700wlw
04-18-2007, 05:20 PM
Trade Eddie.











I'm kidding.

bucksfan2
04-18-2007, 05:20 PM
Is there any other organization who treats their top hitting prospect, Encarnacion, the way the reds have? Last year was an outright crime and this year it starting to look the same way. The upside that Encarnacion possess is above and beyond anyone on this club not named Dunn or Hamilton. This kid needs to be in the lineup every day and doesn't deserve to be Jerry Narron's pawn to juggle back and forth so he further manipulate the lineup.

membengal
04-18-2007, 05:23 PM
The Twins are pretty slow to pull the trigger on unleashing their pitching prospects, wasting starts on guys like Ponson and Silva. Perhaps that is the pitching equivalent of what the Reds are potentially engaged in here...

joshnky
04-18-2007, 05:26 PM
Right now, I'd take Hamilton over Encarnacion in the lineup. I know people are going to call for Narron's head, but it's the right move for the time being.

I totally agree on this point. The team played well last night and Freel was outstanding. I don't have a problem if Narron wants to try for a repeat of the magic. I'd say its very doubtful that they score 11 again tonight so EdE will be back tomorrow. However, if they have another huge outburst I wouldn't be opposed to running out the same lineup against righthanders until it stops working.

Also, there is no way Phillips' home run trot turned triple can be compared to EdE's mental mistake. Phillips reached third which he probably would have anyway while Edwin's lapse could have resulted in an easy double play.

Homer Bailey
04-18-2007, 05:27 PM
Despite the RBI single the other night, Edwin is clearly not seeing the ball well right now. Giving him a couple of days off can make it feel like a completely fresh start when he does get back in the lineup. This used to work for me back in high school when I would get in a slump. The key here will be if Edwin can take this "benching" with a grain of salt and still keep a good attitude. He'll be back guys don't worry.

We have 9 worthy starters for the 8 postions so someone is going to have to sit. Get used to it.

osuceltic
04-18-2007, 05:27 PM
Is there any other organization who treats their top hitting prospect, Encarnacion, the way the reds have? Last year was an outright crime and this year it starting to look the same way. The upside that Encarnacion possess is above and beyond anyone on this club not named Dunn or Hamilton. This kid needs to be in the lineup every day and doesn't deserve to be Jerry Narron's pawn to juggle back and forth so he further manipulate the lineup.

What was so criminal about the way he was treated last season? They benched him to get the point across that defense matters. It seemed to work, by the way. I think they handled him perfectly last season, and I have no problem with the way they're handling him now. He's a young player who needs to learn how to play the game the right way and be a professional.

Throw in the facts that he's struggling, they're trying to get Hamilton in there somehow, and that they want Freel in the lineup to bat leadoff, and it makes sense.

If Encarnacion learns the lesson AND starts hitting, he'll be back in there. I think they'll give him that opportunity because they do need right-handed hitting. But if he doesn't change his approach, he WILL be traded.

Krivsky and Narron are on the same page on how they want the game to be played. It is the Twins Way. They're not going to tolerate it any other way (Griffey, of course, being the exception ... due to who he is and how immovable he is).

membengal
04-18-2007, 05:28 PM
It is comparable in that they both didn't hustle, Narron's bright line in the sand.

Really, it will be fine. EE being on the bench strengthens the bench late tonight. Hopefully they will rest Jr. somewhere along here and then the bench will be strong with Jr. that night. Same with the games Hamilton sits. And Freel sits. It will be fine.

dougdirt
04-18-2007, 05:38 PM
It is comparable in that they both didn't hustle, Narron's bright line in the sand.

Really, it will be fine. EE being on the bench strengthens the bench late tonight. Hopefully they will rest Jr. somewhere along here and then the bench will be strong with Jr. that night. Same with the games Hamilton sits. And Freel sits. It will be fine.

So does Freel or Hamilton or Dunn or Griffey or Phillips on the bench.

KronoRed
04-18-2007, 05:41 PM
Trade Eddie.


Send him to AAA, and no I'm not kidding, if they are truly concerned that he's not seeing the ball well and lolly gagging ;) then I doubt he'll get any better sitting on the bench and getting maybe 1 at bat every 3 games, play him or send him down to play.

Matt700wlw
04-18-2007, 05:48 PM
Send him to AAA, and no I'm not kidding, if they are truly concerned that he's not seeing the ball well and lolly gagging ;) then I doubt he'll get any better sitting on the bench and getting maybe 1 at bat every 3 games, play him or send him down to play.

There's an option....then we all don't have to gripe about Freel playing third over him so Hamilton can play Center, which I don't think bothers anybody

MartyFan
04-18-2007, 05:49 PM
Any chance they move EE to 1B? and keep the "Veteran Presence" on the bench?

MaineRed
04-18-2007, 05:49 PM
In the last week we have seen Edwin upset Narron, Hamilton emerge to the point where the AP is writing articles saying he needs to play each day and Freel has taken the step all by himself to start working out on the infield.

It has been proven that Freel shows up to play every game. He wants to play and is willing to do what it takes, even admitting that he'll have to get some time on the infield to stay in the line-up. This after all the hoopla over he being the guy who knocked Griffey into right.

My question is, do we know that Edwin comes to the park with this same desire? Yes he improved his defense last season but pretty much everyone who harps on that is also blaming Narron for his handling of EE. If you want to credit Edwin, don't you have to credit Narron? It was Jerry who forced Edwin to improve his D.

I'm not an Edwin basher, I like him. But I don't know that the manager is picking on him. It sure isn't outlandish to think that maybe, just maybe Edwin doesn't take the game as seriously as he should and Narron sees a opportunity to put someone in his spot who does, someone who is willing to put work in at the position despite being the starting CFer for the team.

I see no problem with Edwin sitting. The Reds scored 11 without him and of the canidates who could be sitting instead, I'm not really sure Edwin has anything on any of them. Forget Dunn and Griff. If the whole thing is about Hamilton and we are facing a righty, forget him. That leaves Freel and Edwin. If Freel is sitting, Narron is still a moron, for sitting him.

People hate our bench and they don't want anyone good on it. Think about that for a second. As soon as we get anything close to a decent player on the bench all we get are screams that he should be in the line-up.

Perhaps we should just make an appeal to be an AL team. That would solve the problem. Well until Conine was inserted into the DH while Edwin still sat.

:)

klw
04-18-2007, 05:52 PM
It seems that at times this year the approach taken with EE and Homer have been similar in terms of the Reds trying to make sure these guys are fully ready and playing the "right way." With Bailey this seemed to take the form of not hyping him, some semi-negative statements about his preparedness, and the quick shuttle to minor league camp. The EE approach also seems to take a tough love approach. It strikes me that this is not because the team does not value EE but simply the opposite. They are doing what they feel is necessary to make sure that the long term potential is realized and both players develop to everything they can be.

bucksfan2
04-18-2007, 05:53 PM
It seems that at times this year the approach taken with EE and Homer have been similar in terms of the Reds trying to make sure these guys are fully ready and playing the "right way." With Bailey this seemed to take the form of not hyping him, some semi-negative statements about his preparedness, and the quick shuttle to minor league camp. The EE approach also seems to take a tough love approach. It strikes me that this is not because the team does not value EE but simply the opposite. They are doing what they feel is necessary to make sure that the long term potential is realized and both players develop to everything they can be.

I sure hope you are right.

hebroncougar
04-18-2007, 05:54 PM
Phillips walks to 1B which became a triple off the CF wall. Lack of hustle? I have read Narron's thoughts on it as well and I agree that he likley would not have gotten an inside the park HR there, but you have to be kidding me if he shouldn't have been reprimanded for that.

Next, Griffey's light jog to 2B on the Phillips gapper would have scored him if he were not showing that lack of hustle. Also, Phillips wouldn't have been caught in the pickle.

One of either Phillips or Griffey should be sitting tonight as did EdE after his pop out incident a week ago. Now, EdE sees them making the same mistakes and they are still starting and EdE is sitting? Your lineup for tonight should be this:

Freel CF
Hamilton RF
Dunn LF
EdE 3B
Phillips 2B
Hatteberg 1B
Gonzo SS
Ross C
Harang P

Phillips may need to stay in as he is finally starting to hit and you do not want to treat him like EdE has been treated after he finally found his stroke before later finding splinters in his butt.

I think this is a horrible call on Narron's part which will likely create division between EdE and Narron. I hate to say something is unfair and sound like a baby, but EdE has every right to think so.

Agree wholeheartedly. If I'm EdE, I'm ticked off. Narron obviously has a problem with Encarnacion, and if I'm him at the moment, I begin to wonder if I need a change of scenery. Griffey can play shoddy defense, so can Ross, Lopez can while he was here, and so can Dunn. But I get benched for errors? Then I get benched for "lack of hustle", but Phillips, and Griffey loaf the night before and are playing again tonight??

Always Red
04-18-2007, 05:55 PM
it's just a matter of time before this all becomes a moot point; someone will get injured, and by mid-summer, guys we're not even discussing now will be on the shuttle back and forth from Louisville.

I went to the game last night; Freel looked kind of rough at 3B, but that's expected for his first game over there. EE is a much better defensive 3B, and probably a better hitter, as well; certainly with more power. I think JN is just riding the hot hand right now.

I am not of the opinion that JN "hates" EE or has it out for him in any way. I know the EE lovers around here think it's a conspiracy, but I don't see it. EE struggled very much at 3B last year, and still had 400 AB's. He's struggled offensively this year thus far, and his frustration was beginning to show in his attitude towards the game. He'll be back, and he'll be fine, as long as he has a good attitude.

This team has not hit this year up until last night. I think it's smart to play the exact same deck of cards, especially since it's a RH pitcher. If he changed the lineup around after last night, the anti-JN crowd would be right to be on him, in my opinion.

I really think Freel would have been at 2B tonight, and EE back at 3B, if not for hits in Phillips last 2 AB's. The one he hit off the fence was a laser rocket.

Junior will need some days off soon, and Freel will be back in the OF. I think Dunn could use a few more days off than he has had the last few years. He was visibly tired in September, last year.

One things for sure- Hamilton needs to be in this lineup every single day.

Like many others, I wonder if Freel can catch ;-)

I'm more worried about catching, long term, than anything else. I have grave reservations re: Ross and Javy. Unless Ross starts hitting, Javy will be playing more, and teams will run with reckless abandon.

On the other hand, having too many good position players to fit into the lineup is a GOOD PROBLEM to have; most of the discussion here seems to be folks supporting their favorite players. No problem with that!

icehole3
04-18-2007, 05:56 PM
What was so criminal about the way he was treated last season? They benched him to get the point across that defense matters. It seemed to work, by the way. I think they handled him perfectly last season, and I have no problem with the way they're handling him now. He's a young player who needs to learn how to play the game the right way and be a professional.

Throw in the facts that he's struggling, they're trying to get Hamilton in there somehow, and that they want Freel in the lineup to bat leadoff, and it makes sense.

If Encarnacion learns the lesson AND starts hitting, he'll be back in there. I think they'll give him that opportunity because they do need right-handed hitting. But if he doesn't change his approach, he WILL be traded.

Krivsky and Narron are on the same page on how they want the game to be played. It is the Twins Way. They're not going to tolerate it any other way (Griffey, of course, being the exception ... due to who he is and how immovable he is).

What is your position with Ross vs Valentin, just wondering, because I think Ross must have photos of Narron in a gay bar or something.

Sea Ray
04-18-2007, 05:58 PM
This is great problem to have especially after all the talk of how weak this bench is. I hope RZ is full of arguments like this all year. Such "problems" bode well for a successful season at GABP.

kaldaniels
04-18-2007, 06:00 PM
Agree wholeheartedly. If I'm EdE, I'm ticked off. Narron obviously has a problem with Encarnacion, and if I'm him at the moment, I begin to wonder if I need a change of scenery. Griffey can play shoddy defense, so can Ross, Lopez can while he was here, and so can Dunn. But I get benched for errors? Then I get benched for "lack of hustle", but Phillips, and Griffey loaf the night before and are playing again tonight??

I understand the discussion regarding sitting EE. No doubt it is a topic for debate. Let's just not say with certainty "Narron has a problem with EE, Narron hates EE, etc." Its just we don't know 100% of the dynamics between those two. We don't know whats said in the dugout or in the clubhouse...all we see is what is on the field (which, this year, doesn't help Eddie's case). Granted, Narron hasn't come out and fully addressed the situation, but is it fair to rake him over the coals when we as fans don't know the entire story? I don't think it is.

Always Red
04-18-2007, 06:00 PM
Any chance they move EE to 1B? and keep the "Veteran Presence" on the bench?

EE has always reminded me a lot of Tony Perez (except EE doesn't smile as much as Doggie did); that would complete the picture.

If Eddie can play 3B, I'd leave him there. If he struggles there, then OF or 1B, if he can play those positions. This team needs a RH power-hitting OF.

He's shown me this year that he worked hard on defense; I think he's looked great at 3B.

The problem with Dunn, Hammy and Jr in the OF is that they're all LH. What to do about that??

David Cubbedge
04-18-2007, 06:26 PM
My point is simple. I am not favoring a player I like whatsoever. In fact, I am only a Reds fan because of Griffey. But he simply needs to be sitting tonight. He has had his share of defensive blunders and his lack of hustle moments more than anyone on the team.

EdE needs to be starting tonight for two reasons. As all of you have mentioned, he is still young and is still honing his potential, he needs ABs on a frequent basis in order to grow. I know two days will not kill him talent wise, but that gets to my second point. We have all mentioned that he may gain a poor attitude over all this. Why mess with that when you could make everyone happy by giving him the start?

Can any of you defend Griffey needing the start right now? There is no reason why Narron could not have sat Griffey and played EdE. Regardless of what happened last night. As many have also stated, it is not the same lineup. Valentin is not playing and he gave us the biggest clutch hit in the game last night.

Tom Servo
04-18-2007, 06:38 PM
Logical thinking says it's just Narron hoping to recapture last night's success.

Cynical thinking looks to how FeLo was often benched in June/July before being traded and kept help but think there's more to this than we know.

KronoRed
04-18-2007, 06:58 PM
Any chance they move EE to 1B? and keep the "Veteran Presence" on the bench?

I'd rather see Freel at 1st.

hebroncougar
04-18-2007, 07:13 PM
I understand the discussion regarding sitting EE. No doubt it is a topic for debate. Let's just not say with certainty "Narron has a problem with EE, Narron hates EE, etc." Its just we don't know 100% of the dynamics between those two. We don't know whats said in the dugout or in the clubhouse...all we see is what is on the field (which, this year, doesn't help Eddie's case). Granted, Narron hasn't come out and fully addressed the situation, but is it fair to rake him over the coals when we as fans don't know the entire story? I don't think it is.

Like I said.......if I'm EdE, I'm ticked. I'm not pretending to know what goes on in the clubhouse, but doesn't it seem apparent Narron's got a whipping boy? No one else on the team is treated like this.

Razor Shines
04-18-2007, 07:23 PM
Can any of you defend Griffey needing the start right now? There is no reason why Narron could not have sat Griffey and played EdE. Regardless of what happened last night. As many have also stated, it is not the same lineup. Valentin is not playing and he gave us the biggest clutch hit in the game last night.

Yeah I'll go ahead and defend the need of Griffey to start tonight. He's getting on base at more than a 39% clip, he's just now starting to hit the ball really well. He had 2 rbi doubles last night, and one the night before. And a right handed pitcher is going tonight. My question is why would you not want Jr. in the line up tonight?

hebroncougar
04-18-2007, 07:29 PM
Yeah I'll go ahead and defend the need of Griffey to start tonight. He's getting on base at more than a 39% clip, he's just now starting to hit the ball really well. He had 2 rbi doubles last night, and one the night before. And a right handed pitcher is going tonight. My question is why would you not want Jr. in the line up tonight?

I think it's his whopping .362 slugging.

Razor Shines
04-18-2007, 07:33 PM
I think it's his whopping .362 slugging.

Like I said he's starting to hit the ball really well now. That slugging % is on the way up. It's completely a guess but I think that wrist is just starting to get back to full strength. And you'd rather have EE's .209 slugging % in the game, and he's not getting on base at anywhere near Griffey's rate. I think both of them will have fine seasons and I don't put too much stock in either of their low slugging % right now, but since you brought it up.

hebroncougar
04-18-2007, 08:30 PM
Like I said he's starting to hit the ball really well now. That slugging % is on the way up. It's completely a guess but I think that wrist is just starting to get back to full strength. And you'd rather have EE's .209 slugging % in the game, and he's not getting on base at anywhere near Griffey's rate. I think both of them will have fine seasons and I don't put too much stock in either of their low slugging % right now, but since you brought it up.

How about his outstanding defense in RF??? :beerme: