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HumnHilghtFreel
04-18-2007, 08:21 PM
I just had to take my dog of 17 years to the vet to be put to sleep. Worst feeling in the world, but the way it was, I know it was the right thing to do. Really just posting as a venting method:(

TC81190
04-18-2007, 08:22 PM
Wow........... :(

WMR
04-18-2007, 08:23 PM
Oh wow that's sad Humn. I love my dog Teddy, a pembroke welsh corgi, to death. He's 8 and hopefully has a lot of good years left, but I dread the inevitable day that every dog owner must someday face.

At least your dog had a really long life. 17 is a great lifespan for a dog. Was he a specific breed?

HumnHilghtFreel
04-18-2007, 08:28 PM
No, it was just a mutt, they usually live longer from what I hear.

It's weird already not hearing it walk around. Not having it sleep at the foot of my bed is gonna take some getting used to.

Red in Chicago
04-18-2007, 08:32 PM
I'm very sorry to hear about your loss. I am a dog lover and know this is one of the hardest things to do. Try to take comfort in the fact that he had 17 good years.

Roy Tucker
04-18-2007, 08:34 PM
I had to do that with our previous dog several years back. He was 12 and one of the best dogs in the world.

One of the hardest things I've ever had to do. Cried like a baby.

Peter King wrote a good column about this at SI. I'll have to hunt it down.

RFS62
04-18-2007, 08:39 PM
Oh wow that's sad Humn. I love my dog Teddy, a pembroke welsh corgi, to death. He's 8 and hopefully has a lot of good years left, but I dread the inevitable day that every dog owner must someday face.

At least your dog had a really long life. 17 is a great lifespan for a dog. Was he a specific breed?


We've got a corgi too.

My wife would trade me in before that dog.

WMR
04-18-2007, 08:44 PM
Ahhh!! You all are corgi people?!!? That's AWESOME.

We've had Teddy for 8 years, we bred him with a female corgi in our town, and the plan was to keep the cash instead of a puppy... BUT somehow my sister finagled that deal into Obie: Corgi #2. :laugh:

I don't think I'll ever own another breed of dog. They are just such sweet, lovable, eager to please dogs. Perfect temperament and they love to be lazy and they love to run.

Hehe, Teddy LOVES chasing Obie around the house. Teddy is very serious about it, but Obie thinks it's just a big game and great fun.

TeamDunn
04-18-2007, 08:56 PM
I'm so sorry. I can't even think about the day I will have to do that. :(

KronoRed
04-18-2007, 08:58 PM
I'm so sorry, my condolences :( :(

pedro
04-18-2007, 09:11 PM
Sorry to hear this.

chicoruiz
04-18-2007, 09:46 PM
In February I had to put down a beloved mutt that had been part of our family for almost 13 years. The only worse feeling than putting a dog to sleep is not doing it, and knowing that they're living in pain every day because you can't face the inevitable. You did the right thing.

I heard once that when you get to heaven the first thing that happens is that every dog you ever loved comes running to greet you. That thought comforted me, and I hope it does you too...

redsfan30
04-18-2007, 09:58 PM
So very sorry to hear that, Freel. Dogs are VERY important in our family....sometimes they're treated better than the actual people. I don't know what I'm going to do when my sister's dogs pass.

SunDeck
04-18-2007, 10:05 PM
Sorry to hear about it. If only someone could produce a dog that lived for fifty years.

I put my old boy down last year. He was very old and I knew it was the right thing to do. But it was terribly difficult. My condolences.

bucksfan
04-18-2007, 10:12 PM
I too offer my sympathies. We had to do it 2 years ago, in a very unexpected situation. She was 9 and apparently in fantastic physical shape. Never a problem with her, very fit,trim, and active. Then one day she wouldn't move, and when she did it was barely. We thought she hurt her back playing and were shocked when our vet told us (cutting to the chase) that a tumor on her spleen had ruptured. Then subsequent X-rays showed her full of tumors. Please take comfort that plenty of poeple know and understand your pain, and be grateful for the privilege of knowing a fine dog.

remdog
04-18-2007, 10:15 PM
Remdog's kidneys failed when he was about 12. I didn't know it at the time so when he got sick I took him to the vet. They kept him overnight and did tests and called me the next day with the bad news.

I went to the vet's knowing what was going to happen. When they brought him into the room Rem was so weak that he couldn't lift his head but his tail started weakly wagging the moment he saw me. As soon as I put my arms around him he seemed to relax. I spent 30 minutes holding him and talking to him before it was time. I held him while the vet took care of matters and he seemed to be OK with it....maybe I'm just imagining that but that's the way it felt.

I managed to make it out of the vet's office without making too big a fool of myself....then spent 15 minuets in the car bawling uncontrolably.

That was 14 years ago and I'm crying as I write this. I know some folks may find that pathetic but I don't care.

Rem

BuckWoody
04-18-2007, 10:20 PM
"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went."
Will Rogers

My thoughts are with you and yours, HHF. We had to put our dog down last year so I know how hard it is. I still think about him every day. Know that you did what was best and remember that you had 17 good years together. Take care.

Patrick Bateman
04-18-2007, 10:20 PM
That was 14 years ago and I'm crying as I write this. I know some folks may find that pathetic but I don't care.


Anyone who has ever owned a dog would not find that pathetic.

Very sad news Freel. My condolensces.

reds1869
04-18-2007, 11:22 PM
Very sorry to hear about your loss.

bengalsown
04-19-2007, 12:42 AM
Remdog's kidneys failed when he was about 12. I didn't know it at the time so when he got sick I took him to the vet. They kept him overnight and did tests and called me the next day with the bad news.

I went to the vet's knowing what was going to happen. When they brought him into the room Rem was so weak that he couldn't lift his head but his tail started weakly wagging the moment he saw me. As soon as I put my arms around him he seemed to relax. I spent 30 minutes holding him and talking to him before it was time. I held him while the vet took care of matters and he seemed to be OK with it....maybe I'm just imagining that but that's the way it felt.

I managed to make it out of the vet's office without making too big a fool of myself....then spent 15 minuets in the car bawling uncontrolably.

That was 14 years ago and I'm crying as I write this. I know some folks may find that pathetic but I don't care.

Rem

Wow that story is rough...

We've got a 4 year old Pug, we don't have any children yet, but I imagine our love for our first dog would be pretty close to our love for our first child.

I couldn't even begin to imagine what it will be like when our dog passes on.

MrsK
04-19-2007, 02:31 AM
That was 14 years ago and I'm crying as I write this. I know some folks may find that pathetic but I don't care. Rem

You and your actions - your feelings - are NOT pathetic. Anyone who has a pet definitely understands and we've all probably acted in a similar way.

I have 2 cats now but I still am very sad at losing my other cats over the years.

I love dogs too - just never owned one. My brother has a dog, and several of my friends, family and neighbors have dogs. They are all very precious and sweet creatures.

I guess I love all animals - call me strange - but I get very emotional when I hear or see bad things that happen to animals.

So, to you HHF (and to Rem and others who have lost a pet) I just wanted to say, my thoughts are with you and your family on your loss. I hope you can take comfort in the good years you had with your Dog.

Take care.

remdog
04-19-2007, 02:59 AM
You and your actions - your feelings - are NOT pathetic. Anyone who has a pet definitely understands and we've all probably acted in a similar way.

I have 2 cats now but I still am very sad at losing my other cats over the years.

I love dogs too - just never owned one. My brother has a dog, and several of my friends, family and neighbors have dogs. They are all very precious and sweet creatures.

I guess I love all animals - call me strange - but I get very emotional when I hear or see bad things that happen to animals.

So, to you HHF (and to Rem and others who have lost a pet) I just wanted to say, my thoughts are with you and your family on your loss. I hope you can take comfort in the good years you had with your Dog.

Take care.

Thanks, Mrs. K. I, and hopefully others, truly enjoy the memories of the time we had with our animal 'family'. The fact that I chose my 'screen name' to reflect that admiration and careing for Rem is a reflection of that.

Rem was definately a very good part of my life.

Rem

WMR
04-19-2007, 03:26 AM
Thanks, Mrs. K. I, and hopefully others, truly enjoy the memories of the time we had with our animal 'family'. The fact that I chose my 'screen name' to reflect that admiration and careing for Rem is a reflection of that.

Rem was definately a very good part of my life.

Rem

And here I was thinking all this time your name combined with you living out in California meant you must be a homey of Snoop Dogg! ;)

creek14
04-19-2007, 04:54 AM
Sorry to hear that HHF. We had to do that same thing last Tuesday. Ours was 17 too. It sucks.

Red Heeler
04-19-2007, 08:21 AM
Thanks, Mrs. K. I, and hopefully others, truly enjoy the memories of the time we had with our animal 'family'. The fact that I chose my 'screen name' to reflect that admiration and careing for Rem is a reflection of that.

Rem was definately a very good part of my life.

Rem

I had to put the dog from whom my screen name comes to sleep a little over a year ago. I was in my fourth year of vet school at the time. He had battled congestive heart failure for nearly a year (far above average). His last set of X-rays showed that it was time for the battle to end. All the medical training in the world is no help when it is YOUR dog. I was able to stay on task while I helped another doctor put him to sleep and prepare his body to take home for burial. Like you, once I got in my truck, I lost control for a long, long time.

I miss him.

Red Leader
04-19-2007, 09:31 AM
Remdog's kidneys failed when he was about 12. I didn't know it at the time so when he got sick I took him to the vet. They kept him overnight and did tests and called me the next day with the bad news.

I went to the vet's knowing what was going to happen. When they brought him into the room Rem was so weak that he couldn't lift his head but his tail started weakly wagging the moment he saw me. As soon as I put my arms around him he seemed to relax. I spent 30 minutes holding him and talking to him before it was time. I held him while the vet took care of matters and he seemed to be OK with it....maybe I'm just imagining that but that's the way it felt.

I managed to make it out of the vet's office without making too big a fool of myself....then spent 15 minuets in the car bawling uncontrolably.

That was 14 years ago and I'm crying as I write this. I know some folks may find that pathetic but I don't care.

Rem

I had pretty much the same story. When I first met my wife in college, she had just bought a dog 2 weeks before. He was a little ball of fur. She lived in off campus housing and would just open the door and let him out. He'd run around the neighborhood for a half hour or so and then come back. A couple of times during the winter, he decided he liked playing in the snow and I had to go chase him down. I'd get so mad. I knew him so well eventually that I knew where he'd be. I'd go there, find him, and then walk up to him. He thought I was playing, so he'd run from me. Really, a lot of fun when you've got a class in 15 minutes. :angry: Looking back, though, it was a bonding time for him and I. I continued this all through college, hunting the dog down throughout the neighborhood. After my wife and I were married he moved back to Dayton with us. We got an apartment and my wife continued to do the same thing, let the dog out the front door, tell him to run, and he'd do his business and run around. He loved people. Would approach anyone and wag his too-shortly-cut stub on his butt. He was a miniature schnauzer but weighed in at around 31 lbs. Not exactly miniature. Anyway, life continued to move, we had our oldest son, and the dog loved him. Would follow him around, keep an eye on him, etc. Eventually we moved into a house with a fenced in yard. He was confused at first, but got used to it. Our second child was born. Same thing. The dog absolutely loved him and would protect him to no end. Last July, I came home from work and he didn't rush to the door to greet me (which NEVER happened). I found him in a corner of a room, panting, like he couldn't catch his breath, or was overheated. I took him to the vet that night. The vet told me he had pancreatitis. Schnauzers were suseptable to pancreatitis because they have such high fat content in their blood. The condition, I was told, was too bad to be reversed. He was suffering. I talked to my wife and we decided to have him put down. We both went to the vets office the next day. Both of us with huge tears in our eyes. My wife held him for about a 1/2 hour and then I held him after she said goodbye and left the room. He glanced at me with those big black Chewbacca looking eyes. He was sad. I think he knew he wouldn't see us again. The first tear dropped from my eyes. He put his head down and gave a large exhale. Another tear fell. I held him as the doctor put him down. One last time he glanced at me and I swear he looked right through me and to my heart to tell me everything would be ok. It was gut-wrenching. I walked out of the room and cried for a good hour and a half. Uncontrollably. We buried him in our backyard later that day and that was hard, too.

A month later we did the dumbest thing we've ever done. We went to a breeder to "replace" our long lost buddy. We ended up buying two puppies, both schnauzers. They're still pups and still learning the ropes, but neither of them compares to that dog, and quite frankly, I don't think it's fair that I try to compare them to that dog, but I do. No dog can replace the dog we lost. Part of my heart is buried in our backyard.

westofyou
04-19-2007, 09:38 AM
The Last Battle


If it should be that I grow frail and weak
And pain should keep me from my sleep,
Then will you do what must be done,
For this -- the last battle -- can't be won.
You will be sad I understand,
But don't let grief then stay your hand,
For on this day, more than the rest,
Your love and friendship must stand the test.
We have had so many happy years,
You wouldn't want me to suffer so.
When the time comes, please, let me go.
Take me to where to my needs they'll tend,
Only, stay with me till the end
And hold me firm and speak to me
Until my eyes no longer see.
I know in time you will agree
It is a kindness you do to me.
Although my tail its last has waved,
From pain and suffering I have been saved.
Don't grieve that it must be you
Who has to decide this thing to do;
We've been so close -- we two -- these years,
Don't let your heart hold any tears.

-- Unknown

BuckWoody
04-19-2007, 10:34 AM
Sorry to hear that HHF. We had to do that same thing last Tuesday. Ours was 17 too. It sucks.
I'm sorry to hear about your loss too, creek.

We just got a new puppy about three weeks ago. He's dumb and clumsy and silly and excitable but completely adorable and lovable. He's learning fast, though, and I know we'll grow to love him as much as we did our Benny. He'll never replace him but I think he'll have a place in our hearts right along side him.

Wow, it's really dusty in this room...

Red Leader
04-19-2007, 10:37 AM
Wow, it's really dusty in this room...


Yeah, and those onions. Almost unbearable.

jnickols
04-19-2007, 10:40 AM
So sorry for your loss, they are truly our best friends. Over the years we have had to do this and it is a very sad time for the family, they were a part of our family. My heart goes out to you.

Two years ago we had to put down a 2 year old horse who went into colic. We tried to keep him on his feet for 45 min. until the vet arrived. His intestines were twisted, we had to decide a $10,000 surgery 2 hours away with no guarantee or put him to sleep. I'll never forget his big beautiful eyes looking at us. We now have his half brother a beautiful 2 year old gelding named Rookie. Time does heal, but the love never dies.

Yachtzee
04-19-2007, 11:50 AM
Yeah, and those onions. Almost unbearable.

Who's been playing with the pepper spray?

Seriously, I don't think I can read much more of these. My allergies are really starting to kick up.



When I was in high school, my friends and I rescued a black lab mix puppy from a neighbor kid who had found her and some other puppies and caught her before the others ran away. He thought it was funny to give her beer and vodka, so that when we saw him playing with her, she was too drunk to walk. When he told us to watch the dog while he went to the bathroom, a friend stuffed the dog in her shirt and started to walk away. When he came out, two of us stayed behind and told him the owner came and claimed the puppy. Then we went to meet up with our other friends. Since my family didn't have a dog, I was elected to keep it overnight until we could find it a home. When my mom came home, she just couldn't resist and let me keep her. She became our family dog and was one of the most lovable and well behaved dogs ever. Fast forward 15 years. The week before my wedding I got a call from my parents. Brandy had had a stroke. My dad and my sister had taken her to the vet and had her put down. Since I was in Chicago, I was too far away to be there, and so they didn't tell me until after it was done. I still wish I could have been there to say goodbye.

Darn it. There go the allergies again.

Johnny Footstool
04-19-2007, 11:57 AM
A very tough thing to do. You have my sympathies, all of you.

I will repeat some advice I've given many times before: after you lose a pet, get a new pet soon.

After one of my cats died, my wife, my other cat, and I were utterly miserable for a couple of weeks. Finally, we decided to get a new kitten. Best decision I ever made. Instead of sinking deeper into depression, we were all enthralled by the new kitten (I named him Griffey). He actually brought back fond memories of the old cat -- we noticed all the similarities and differences in their behavior. We were much happier, and I'm sure my old cat would have wanted it that way.

flyer85
04-19-2007, 12:01 PM
We had to put a dog to sleep last falll. Worst thing I've ever had to do. Watching the life slip out of something is a profound experience that words are utterly unable to describe.

HumnHilghtFreel
04-19-2007, 12:12 PM
Wow, thanks for all of the responses.

I'm feeling a little better today, but I didn't get much sleep at all last night. And yeah, i got something in my eye too!

Red Leader
04-19-2007, 12:16 PM
At the end of the day, it's never easy, and you're never alone in feeling that way. What is physically gut-wrenching, nauseating, and mentally grueling for you is just as bad for someone else and it never gets easier.

Dom Heffner
04-19-2007, 12:30 PM
As someone who almost lost his cat to poisoning, you have my sympathy.

When the vet told me we might have to put Tyson down, I had to drive him to the hospital right then and there. On the way, I bought him a hamburger from Wendy's and was relieved to know that despite being so sick, that hamburger didn't stand a chance. I fed it to him through the holes in his carrier while saying, "Let's keep this between us guys..."

There wasn't any way in the world my little guy was going away without having his favorite meal first.

After he finished, he was sticking his paw through the cage and swatting my arm to get more. It was cute.

Life is full of ugly decisions. I was sitting there at the vet's office sort of hating being a grown up. I had to make a life or death decision, I had to pay the bill, and I had to live with whatever became of a situation I had no control over.

Part of the rules of life is that it can end for any living thing at any time. We don't make the rules, so the only thing we can do is play by them as best we can. If you have to put an animal down, that's playing with the rules as best you can. Tough to see it that way, but it's the truth.

I love the advice of getting a new pet.

flyer85
04-19-2007, 01:06 PM
The thing is that our pets dogs and cats are so trusting of us and yet we are having to make a decision that will end their life.

The sinking feeling that still comes around
Did we do the right thing?
Was the timing right?

dabvu2498
04-19-2007, 02:38 PM
This thread made me miss my dogs (4 of them) so much that I drove home for lunch to let them out and run around the yard for a half hour.

pedro
04-19-2007, 03:13 PM
As someone who almost lost his cat to poisoning, you have my sympathy.

When the vet told me we might have to put Tyson down, I had to drive him to the hospital right then and there. On the way, I bought him a hamburger from Wendy's and was relieved to know that despite being so sick, that hamburger didn't stand a chance. I fed it to him through the holes in his carrier while saying, "Let's keep this between us guys..."

There wasn't any way in the world my little guy was going away without having his favorite meal first.

After he finished, he was sticking his paw through the cage and swatting my arm to get more. It was cute.

Life is full of ugly decisions. I was sitting there at the vet's office sort of hating being a grown up. I had to make a life or death decision, I had to pay the bill, and I had to live with whatever became of a situation I had no control over.

Part of the rules of life is that it can end for any living thing at any time. We don't make the rules, so the only thing we can do is play by them as best we can. If you have to put an animal down, that's playing with the rules as best you can. Tough to see it that way, but it's the truth.

I love the advice of getting a new pet.

You feed your cats mcdonalds? :laugh:

I'm sure my cat Cleveland would love that. Pearl OTOH, maybe not so much.

BuckeyeRedleg
04-19-2007, 03:27 PM
A couple years ago, my mother gave me the dreaded phone call. My childhood dog, Shadow, a miniature long-haired Dachshund, was not going to make it much longer. I left work and met her at the vet's office. Since it was my dog growing up, I felt like it was the right thing for me to be the one to hold him as the doctor gave him the injection. He was looking at me and all I could tell him was "Thank you". "Thank you, little buddy, for being there for me all those years". I was surprised how quick he went. I could feel him let out his last breath and at that moment I was hit with such extreme guilt. Guilt that I had grown up, gotten married, and had my own family and left him there with my mom as he grew older. I only really saw him once every few months his last few years. Being there with him for his last breath, was very surreal, but also very beautiful in a way and I wouldn't have had it any other way.

Dom Heffner
04-19-2007, 03:48 PM
You feed your cats mcdonalds?

When I go to McDonald's, I get two hamburgers and a six piece chicken McNuggets and I share it with Tyson everytime.

His great grandfather is an African Serval, so these cats love meat. And when he eats it, he attacks my hand, the other cats, and lets out a growl that continues until he's done. It was sort of funny in the car that day because Tyson was growling in his carrier while chomping away. I was like, dude, nobody is going to get your food. Relax.

If I have to warm up meat in the microwave to feed to him and it's too hot to eat, he'll swat at it, as if that is going to cool it down. Bambambambam with his paw until it's ready to eat. I think he is trying to kill it or something.

But yeah, he loves fast food. And lunch meat.

I tell my girlfriend that we should hand out awards every year to our cats, and Tyson will get the "Most Entertaining" or "Most Likely to Kill Something That's Already Dead" awards.

HumnHilghtFreel
04-19-2007, 04:15 PM
Being there with him for his last breath, was very surreal, but also very beautiful in a way and I wouldn't have had it any other way.

Surreal is the only word I could think of to describe the situation. I've had losses in my family, but I've never actually seen the life leave them. Holding the dog in your arms as it happens, it just can't be explained in words, I don't think. I was happy to see that the suffering had ended, but I couldn't help but cry uncontrollably.

Spring~Fields
04-19-2007, 05:14 PM
I am sorry that you have had to experience this moment.

Their faith, trust, and belief in us along with their unconditional love makes the decision to put down a genuine friend and companion very difficult beyond the common expressions and words that we routinely reflect. The thread brought tears to my eyes, and yes a recall of the dreadful experience myself.

Johnny Footstool
04-19-2007, 05:23 PM
I understand that making the decision is hard, but at least you get the chance to share a few last days/hours with your pet. It's worse to simply come home and find that they passed away while you were out. That leaves you full of regret.

Red Heeler
04-19-2007, 10:27 PM
The Rainbow Bridge:


Just this side of heaven is a place called Rainbow Bridge.
When an animal dies that has been especially close to someone here, that pet goes to Rainbow Bridge. There are meadows and hills for all of our special friends so they can run and play together. There is plenty of food, water and sunshine, and our friends are warm and comfortable.

All the animals who had been ill and old are restored to health and vigor. Those who were hurt or maimed are made whole and strong again, just as we remember them in our dreams of days and times gone by. The animals are happy and content, except for one small thing; they each miss someone very special to them, who had to be left behind.

They all run and play together, but the day comes when one suddenly stops and looks into the distance. His bright eyes are intent. His eager body quivers. Suddenly he begins to run from the group, flying over the green grass, his legs carrying him faster and faster.

You have been spotted, and when you and your special friend finally meet, you cling together in joyous reunion, never to be parted again. The happy kisses rain upon your face; your hands again caress the beloved head, and you look once more into the trusting eyes of your pet, so long gone from your life but never absent from your heart.

Then you cross Rainbow Bridge together....

Author unknown...

Roy Tucker
04-19-2007, 10:59 PM
Peter King from a few years back...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/peter_king/news/2002/01/21/mmqb/

HumnHilghtFreel
04-19-2007, 11:11 PM
Peter King from a few years back...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/peter_king/news/2002/01/21/mmqb/

Damn you, I hadn't cried since this morning! lol I need to stop coming back to this thread, but it feels good to get it off your chest.

I talked with the family tonight about the whole getting another dog process. I almost feel like it would be a betrayal to get another so soon, but at the same time, it would help to ease the pain a bit. Either way, we're at least going to go and look on Monday.

mth123
04-19-2007, 11:35 PM
I feel bad for all of you that have gone through this. My past dogs went naturally and I never had to face this. I read this thread this morning prior to taking my dog to the animal hospital for heart tests today (things are ok for now at least). I know it isn't the same but it does help me relate to the decision process. The hospital was a 3 hour drive and I was playing this scenario in my head the entire drive.

No one needs to be ashamed of their emotions. I was choked up and nothing had really happened yet. I can't imagine actually going through it. I feel for you all.

Johnny Footstool
04-20-2007, 12:16 AM
I talked with the family tonight about the whole getting another dog process. I almost feel like it would be a betrayal to get another so soon, but at the same time, it would help to ease the pain a bit. Either way, we're at least going to go and look on Monday.

It may take you and your family some time -- it's okay to grieve.

But just like you didn't want him to suffer, I'm sure he wouldn't want you and your family to suffer. You're not disrespecting him or his memory. On the contrary, you're acknowledging that he played a huge role in your life, and that his absence leaves a huge emotional void. You loved him tremendously, and now that he's gone, it's okay to share your love with a new pet.

remdog
04-20-2007, 12:35 AM
Damn you, I hadn't cried since this morning! lol I need to stop coming back to this thread, but it feels good to get it off your chest.

Yeah, I'm having a bit of a love/hate relationship with this thread myself. I love the memories and emotions it brings back; I hate the empty hole where pure love used to dwell. :cry:

Darn you HHF, why'd you ever start this thread anyway! :thumbup:

Rem