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View Full Version : Bus Ticket to Louisville for Coffey?



Redus
04-18-2007, 09:25 PM
Wow way to turn a win into a blowout loss....Todd needs to go down and get his crap together. Time to bring back Majewski.:bang:

dougdirt
04-18-2007, 09:34 PM
talk about an overreaction to a game....

Patrick Bateman
04-18-2007, 09:38 PM
Cormier was the guy who turned it into a blowout. Why he was left in to face Lane is beyond my comprehension.

kaldaniels
04-18-2007, 09:44 PM
Wow way to turn a win into a blowout loss....Todd needs to go down and get his crap together. Time to bring back Majewski.:bang:

Call me crazy but isn't that just Coffey's 2nd poor outing???

redsupport
04-18-2007, 09:47 PM
insantiy keep doing the same thing over and over with coffey, santos had just pitched a perfect seventh . Is he only allowed to pitch a designated inning? Talk about iane overmanaging

cincy09
04-18-2007, 09:51 PM
Wow way to turn a win into a blowout loss....Todd needs to go down and get his crap together. Time to bring back Majewski.:bang:

How about a DFA for the frenchman!

Tom Servo
04-18-2007, 09:54 PM
Cormier was the guy who turned it into a blowout. Why he was left in to face Lane is beyond my comprehension.
Agreed, I'm 10x madder at the Cormier thing than Coffey.

Coffey should not be used as the set-up man right now though. As I said in the game thread, this is exactly like June of last year when Weathers was getting lit up on a daily basis and Narron was still running him out everyday.

guttle11
04-18-2007, 10:00 PM
No, but he should get demoted to mop up duty until he gets his confidence back. Dude just loses everything when a runner gets on base.

Bill Bray needs to get healthy. Not sure how he'll be, but he's not Cormier. It's a start.

Degenerate39
04-18-2007, 10:02 PM
I can't speak for everyone but MRoby and I hope he gets sent down.

CTA513
04-18-2007, 10:03 PM
Only if Cormier can go with him.

edabbs44
04-18-2007, 10:04 PM
insantiy keep doing the same thing over and over with coffey, santos had just pitched a perfect seventh . Is he only allowed to pitch a designated inning? Talk about iane overmanaging

Vicor Santos is a mirage...odds are he will be roadkill in a little while.

Patrick Bateman
04-18-2007, 10:06 PM
No doubt Coffey has struggled this season, but it's still only been 8 innings. Way too trigger happy to send him to the minors.

It was a poor idea to let him pitch 3 games in a row. I figured pitching him yesterday was a good idea to let him get things together in an easy situation. With 2 innings to go, I thought Saarloos and Weathers were the obvious guys to use in the 8th and 9th innings, and if you need a lefty for a batter, then Coutlangus was probably the best option seeing Stanton was used 2 innings last night.

Not Narron's best night IMO. Coffey and Cormier suffered because they were not put in the right situations to succeed.

Redus
04-18-2007, 10:13 PM
talk about an overreaction to a game....

Um not really. His 8.64 era and three hit batters in two innings leads me to believe he needs to go down to work on his control. Cormier needs to be dfa'd as soon as Bray is ready giving us 10 days to trade him (for a broken jugs gun?)

Wheelhouse
04-18-2007, 10:30 PM
For me, Coffey being sent down is not in the actual pitching, but the 3 hit batsmen. It's a huge sign of immaturity. One nice thing is that Narron will not be allowed any love affairs with poorly performing pitchers this year--we've got the arms. Sorry Jerry, one to a bathroom.

Patrick Bateman
04-18-2007, 10:32 PM
It's a huge sign of immaturity.

It's not like he's trying to do it.

It's a sign that he's having some trouble harnessing his stuff, or that he's trying too hard.

KoryMac5
04-18-2007, 10:40 PM
It is going to be hard to continue to justify keeping Todd up with the big club when Majewski and Salmon are performing in AAA. Salmon pitched well again tonight and in 5 games has yet to walk a batter while picking up 2 saves. When Bray gets back I am hoping that the Reds get Rheal about a certain left handed specialist.

kbrake
04-18-2007, 10:43 PM
I really dont know that it matters if its Coffey, I think Narron has no clue on how to handle a situation. If there is a bad situation for a pitcher to be put in Narron never misses that.

redsupport
04-18-2007, 10:45 PM
what a you a seer, santos is money, coffey is garbage those are the facts the rest is preposterous prognostication

CTA513
04-18-2007, 10:48 PM
what a you a seer, santos is money, coffey is garbage those are the facts the rest is preposterous prognostication

Santos career is made from garbage.

redsrule2500
04-18-2007, 10:48 PM
I really dont know that it matters if its Coffey, I think Narron has no clue on how to handle a situation. If there is a bad situation for a pitcher to be put in Narron never misses that.

Wow, blaming Narron for anything and everything...and don't say he can't handle situations, how the hell do you know that?

Way to just spew crap out of your mouth :rolleyes:

KoryMac5
04-18-2007, 10:53 PM
I really dont know that it matters if its Coffey, I think Narron has no clue on how to handle a situation. If there is a bad situation for a pitcher to be put in Narron never misses that.

Narron often mishandles situations no doubt, but if you ask Coffey on this one he will tell you that it is his job to get batters out no matter what the situation is.

redsupport
04-18-2007, 10:58 PM
I guess you find Santos'performance objectionable, I guess it does not fit in with the likes of Majewski, Coffey, and Cormier and you are right with the benchmark of abject utter mediocrity Santos does not fit in

kbrake
04-18-2007, 11:09 PM
Its obvious to EVERYONE that Coffey is struggling right now so why the hell do you bring him in with a one run lead? You want to build confidence fine, but when he hits the first batter he is done, he can work on self esteem later. You dont turn Berkman around and then you leave Cormier in to face Lane.....brilliant. Yeah Narron was great tonight.

Kc61
04-18-2007, 11:20 PM
Coffey pitched the last two games. Don't know why he was in there tonight. He shouldn't go down, just give him adequate rest, don't use him in key spots until he gets his act together.

As for Cormier, he hasn't pitched well since he came over from Philadelphia last season. Right now, can't see him lasting when Maj/Bray/Burton get healthy.

Santos has been ok, no reason to send him any place. He looked good tonight. He bears watching but he's been all right.

Chip R
04-18-2007, 11:31 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this the same guy who was shattering bats in Arizona and CHI? Yeah, he hit a guy. Then he got Biggio to foul off a bunt to strike out. I doubt hardly anyone in the bullpen can throw so hard to get Biggio to foul off bunts. he got the next guy to ground out. Unfortunately the runner reached 2nd. Then he gave up a base hit to one of the best hitters in baseball. It's not like he was rocked out there.

It would be nice if he could come in and strike everyone out. But that's not reality. You want to send Coffey down, fine. Just remember who will be coming up. It's not hard, just read one of the 73,000,000 threads on here about how we got rooked in The Trade.

CTA513
04-19-2007, 12:06 AM
I guess you find Santos'performance objectionable, I guess it does not fit in with the likes of Majewski, Coffey, and Cormier and you are right with the benchmark of abject utter mediocrity Santos does not fit in

Santos less than mediocre career fits right in.

TheBigLebowski
04-19-2007, 12:13 AM
Wow, blaming Narron for anything and everything...and don't say he can't handle situations, how the hell do you know that?

Way to just spew crap out of your mouth :rolleyes:


Huh? This from the guy who posted something to the effect of "this is why you're on the bench, Edwin!" after EE hit a screamer to the warning track.

Hypocrite.

WVRedsFan
04-19-2007, 12:24 AM
No doubt Coffey has struggled this season, but it's still only been 8 innings. Way too trigger happy to send him to the minors.

It was a poor idea to let him pitch 3 games in a row. I figured pitching him yesterday was a good idea to let him get things together in an easy situation. With 2 innings to go, I thought Saarloos and Weathers were the obvious guys to use in the 8th and 9th innings, and if you need a lefty for a batter, then Coutlangus was probably the best option seeing Stanton was used 2 innings last night.

Not Narron's best night IMO. Coffey and Cormier suffered because they were not put in the right situations to succeed.

I agree on Coffey, but he bears watching because he appears to be unraveling. That first hit batsman seemed to upset him so much he couldn't do anything after that. We do not need a pitcher like that and if he continues, I fear he will no longer be a Red.

But, once again, I do not blame Todd. He was put into pitch by the manager. The manager missed something in his baseball schooling. First off, on opening day he pitches Harang to nearly 150 pitches. Tonight, Aaron is cruising along through six and he takes him out after 101 pitches. Why? Anyone have any insight on that? Second, there were a lot better choices than Cormier and Coffey tonight. He had pitched Coffey the last two nights with somewhat tragic results. Although he pitched well on Tuesday, Monday was a horriffic outing and his work for 33 pitches was 3 hits and five runs in 1 1/3 innings.

Cormier, Stanton, and Saarloos had pitched on Tuesday also. You might think a reasonable man might have gone with Cout and Santos who hadn't pitched since Monday or Weathers who hadn't pitched since Sunday. But no. Jerry is a creature of habit (except when it comes to lineups and even there to some extent). He apparently has his picks and they are his picks regardless of performance (just a guess). He likes to come with Coffey first, just like he used to do with Chris Hammond. Hammond got beat to death for a long time before Narron got the message. Same thing here. Regardless of rest, stuff and past performance, it was Coffey and that was a mistake.

But following him up with Cormier, who has been nothing short of a disaster since his appearance in Cincinnati (with an extention before he ever threw a pitch--thanks Wayne), was simply stupid. The result was obvious and predictable.

So put this one on Narron. Guys, he'll lose about ten games this year with moves like this and for all those who say it's early, you are correct. But you have the loss until October so when you lose the division by a couple of games you can point back here.

kaldaniels
04-19-2007, 12:30 AM
I agree on Coffey, but he bears watching because he appears to be unraveling. That first hit batsman seemed to upset him so much he couldn't do anything after that. We do not need a pitcher like that and if he continues, I fear he will no longer be a Red.

But, once again, I do not blame Todd. He was put into pitch by the manager. The manager missed something in his baseball schooling. First off, on opening day he pitches Harang to nearly 150 pitches. Tonight, Aaron is cruising along through six and he takes him out after 101 pitches. Why? Anyone have any insight on that? Second, there were a lot better choices than Cormier and Coffey tonight. He had pitched Coffey the last two nights with somewhat tragic results. Although he pitched well on Tuesday, Monday was a horriffic outing and his work for 33 pitches was 3 hits and five runs in 1 1/3 innings.

Cormier, Stanton, and Saarloos had pitched on Tuesday also. You might think a reasonable man might have gone with Cout and Santos who hadn't pitched since Monday or Weathers who hadn't pitched since Sunday. But no. Jerry is a creature of habit (except when it comes to lineups and even there to some extent). He apparently has his picks and they are his picks regardless of performance (just a guess). He likes to come with Coffey first, just like he used to do with Chris Hammond. Hammond got beat to death for a long time before Narron got the message. Same thing here. Regardless of rest, stuff and past performance, it was Coffey and that was a mistake.

But following him up with Cormier, who has been nothing short of a disaster since his appearance in Cincinnati (with an extention before he ever threw a pitch--thanks Wayne), was simply stupid. The result was obvious and predictable.

So put this one on Narron. Guys, he'll lose about ten games this year with moves like this and for all those who say it's early, you are correct. But you have the loss until October so when you lose the division by a couple of games you can point back here.

Its hard to take a post like this seriously, when Harang threw 113 on opening day. Just needed to get the facts out there as it appeared you were trying to pull a fast one with numbers. Nothing personal at all, but try not to exxagerate with numbers so much when you are using said numbers to prove a point.

Wheelhouse
04-19-2007, 12:31 AM
Are two games enough to send someone down? Yes, when you've got guys pitching extremely well at AAA. Standards are higher this year. There's no reason the Reds have to wait four of five outings (and losses) for a guy to get himself on track (that's if he ever does). The Reds have the arms in the organization to have an excellent bullpen. Use them. Send the message that if you don't perform now, the team can find someone who will.

WVRedsFan
04-19-2007, 12:44 AM
Its hard to take a post like this seriously, when Harang threw 113 on opening day. Just needed to get the facts out there as it appeared you were trying to pull a fast one with numbers. Nothing personal at all, but try not to exxagerate with numbers so much when you are using said numbers to prove a point.

150 was an exaggeration (I didn't take the time to look), but the point is the same. I was certain everyone got my point. I forgot the smiley. he point is what was the difference between opening day and now? Did Harang want out of the game or was it Narron's decision to pull him after six?

Of course you can sluff off a post with some substance over that, it matters not to me, but the point is the same. Mis-management of the pitching staff.

Excuse me for not being perfect at 12:44 AM.

Good grief.

WVPacman
04-19-2007, 12:46 AM
I know alot probably won't agree with me but if you are going to bus Coffey to AAA then you have to put Ross,Cormier,EE on the bus also b/c all three have done nothing.To be honest I think Coffey has outplayed all three thus far.The last two outing have been terrible for Coffey BUT Ross,Cormier,and EE have done nothing since the season started.Some are wanting Majewski and Brey up here now b/c they are pitching good in AAA.Have you ever stoped to think thats the main reason they are pitching good is b/c they are playing AAA ball.AAA isn't the majors and besides neither done nothing for the team last year but get hammered almost every game.Majewski is and was dameged goods and Brey has'nt lived up to the hype.That trade was bad from the start.

So if you send Coffey to AAA then you have to send Ross,Cormier,and EE as well b/c they are'nt doing nothing but hurt the team.

Dunner44
04-19-2007, 01:04 AM
Mentioned already, but it bears repeating: That was Coffey's third game in a row. Monday he threw 33 pitches. Then 7 on Tuesday and then another 18 today. I don't care if he has a rubber arm, you can't have a reliever throw 58 pitches in three games. Add in getting warmed up and he's got a lot of miledge on his arm before he runs to the rubber tonight.

If Jerry would use his whole pen (since they have 7 guys) then this would not be as big of a problem, I believe. And keep Coffey in low pressure situations while he's struggling with command. You're paying Weathers and Saarrloos a lot of money, and Coutlangus won't grow unless you put him in pressure situations.

WVRedsFan
04-19-2007, 01:21 AM
Mentioned already, but it bears repeating: That was Coffey's third game in a row. Monday he threw 33 pitches. Then 7 on Tuesday and then another 18 today. I don't care if he has a rubber arm, you can't have a reliever throw 58 pitches in three games. Add in getting warmed up and he's got a lot of miledge on his arm before he runs to the rubber tonight.

If Jerry would use his whole pen (since they have 7 guys) then this would not be as big of a problem, I believe. And keep Coffey in low pressure situations while he's struggling with command. You're paying Weathers and Saarrloos a lot of money, and Coutlangus won't grow unless you put him in pressure situations.

Exactly. That was my point. Poor decisions. Over and over. Coming into the game, He had used Coutlangus, Santos, and Stanton in only two of the last five games. He had used Weathers in one game. Saarloos, Stanton, Coffey, and Cormier had been used in Tuesday's game. They should have been a last resort. Coffey had seen action in the last two games. Why use Coffey in this situation? Habit. The man has no real feel for pitching changes or who to pitch.

But, of course, exaggerating Harang's opening day pitch count makes this post as useless as any of the others.

Cedric
04-19-2007, 01:35 AM
Coffey can't locate anything. In my mind it's an obvious lack of confidence. He is so afraid of leaving pitches right over the middle he is overcompensating and hitting people.

Ltlabner
04-19-2007, 07:08 AM
the point is what was the difference between opening day and now? Did Harang want out of the game or was it Narron's decision to pull him after six?

Good grief.

According to Matt700wlw, Harrang was pulled in the 6th because of some weirdness in Harrang's back.

But hey, don't let a reasonable explination get in the way of a good tirade.

membengal
04-19-2007, 08:15 AM
1. I was shocked Coffey was put in after pitching the last two days.

2. I was further shocked because I thought Saarloos had been given the primary set-up role with Stanton and still wonder why we didn't see Kirk last night.

3. Berkman's ball was right to where the SS normally plays, no? But they were shifted up the middle with the SS (he was behind second), so, crap luck that.

4. Cormier in high leverage situations makes me grumpy. That said, if they were going to go with him, he should have been in to turn Berkman around to rightieville.

Frustrating loss. A bunch of Narron's moves back-fired. He needs to go ahead and commit to some set roles for the back of the pen. Stanton/Saarloos set-up, Weathers close, the rest to get to them as necessary.

5. One last thought, it occurred to me as things were unraveling, that perhaps WK was showcasing Coffey/Cormier (if so, it backfired). Given the unrest in Philly with their bullpen, and the Reds' spare-parts there, I was thinking he may be actively shopping them. Despite the derision I am taking on Reds Live for the suggestion, I still think you strongly consider offering EE and a reliever or two in an effort to talk the Phillies out of Myers during this, their time of insanity...

WVRedsFan
04-19-2007, 08:32 AM
According to Matt700wlw, Harrang was pulled in the 6th because of some weirdness in Harrang's back.

But hey, don't let a reasonable explination get in the way of a good tirade.

That news came out later on--after the "tirade". And it's the only place I've seen it mentiond--in Matt's post on here, but no matter. It still doesn't change Narron's judgment nor does it change what was the point of my post. Harang pitched very well and Coffey and Cormier didn't. In the process, we lost the game.

BRM
04-19-2007, 09:13 AM
Berkman hits better from the left side. The Reds have three LH relievers. Why not use one of them right there? That would have been a good spot for Cout or Stanton. Sure, Coffey didn't get the job done and neither did Cormier. Narron didn't get the job done either because neither should have been in the game from the Berkman AB on. Actually, Coffey probably shouldn't have been pitching at all last night.

redsmetz
04-19-2007, 09:29 AM
Coffey can't locate anything. In my mind it's an obvious lack of confidence. He is so afraid of leaving pitches right over the middle he is overcompensating and hitting people.

Much of last night's game is running together on me, but while Todd showed some pitches out of the zone, from where I was sitting behind the Astros dugout, this ump was killing us on pitches on the outside of the plate against lefties. There were two pitches to Lane, I think, which looked to be strikes and were called balls. It was on the AB when he finally struck out on a weak swing, but we had him. Now, I can't remember if that was when Coffey was pitching or not. Unfortunately, Coffey might be at the point where his head is playing with him because he's had several poor outings in a row thus far.

Redsland
04-19-2007, 10:21 AM
According to Matt700wlw, Harrang was pulled in the 6th because of some weirdness in Harrang's back.

But hey, don't let a reasonable explination get in the way of a good tirade.
That's not what the press is reporting. The Enquirer, Post, and DDN all quote Jerry Narron as saying he took Harang out because "The game situation dictated it. He threw 101 pitches and it's early in the season." Nevermind that even earlier in the season he left Harang in even longer the throw even more pitches.

PuffyPig
04-19-2007, 10:47 AM
I can't imagine that Coffey is the first guy to give up an opposite field ground ball single to Berkman.

It happens, and Berkman found a hole.

Talk about over reaction.

osuceltic
04-19-2007, 11:16 AM
It's worth pointing out that Coffey basically has had two good months since the start of last season -- and they were the first two months. Maybe this is just who he is -- not very good.

kbrake
04-19-2007, 11:16 AM
I can't imagine that Coffey is the first guy to give up an opposite field ground ball single to Berkman.

It happens, and Berkman found a hole.

Talk about over reaction.

I dont think many of us are upset with Berkman's hit. I dont want to speak for everyone else but my problem is the way Narron uses his pitchers. You also may be responding to the original theme of thread and if you are I agree sending Coffey down is over reaction.

Coffey has been struggling and hit the first batter, his night should have been over right then. I'm not mad at Coffey for the Berkman AB I just think he should have been turned around. I'm not mad at Coffey at all, I think he will come around and will be very good this year, I just dont like the situations that Jerry Narron puts hits pitchers in.

coachw513
04-19-2007, 03:18 PM
Vicor Santos is a mirage...odds are he will be roadkill in a little while.

maybe, but Coffee is roadkill right now...

my point, is Narron needs to recognize that Todd is strugglin' right now and diminish his use in "high-stress" games until he gets straightened out...why blow his confidence potentially and subject the team to more misfortune when it's apparent Coffee's not in a good groove...

We should've seen Saarloos instead of Coffee...the hot-hand setup man...

Chip R
04-19-2007, 03:48 PM
I know everyone wants to dwell on the negative about Coffey's performance last night but he did get Biggio to strike out bunting foul. From what I've read on this board, any major league hitter should be able to lay down a bunt. And a guy who has played as long as Biggio who is the kind of player who would specialize in that sort of thing should be able to do it with no problem. But he couldn't get the bunt down which leads me to believe that 1. Laying down a bunt isn't as easy as everyone thinks it is and 2. The best defense against a bunt is a pitcher with a really good fastball. I doubt anyone in the Reds bullpen can throw as hard as Coffey. Yes, Coffey hit a guy and allowed a single to Berkman. But he did manage to get 2 outs that inning.

Puffy
04-19-2007, 04:02 PM
I think the real question is why would Coffey have to take the bus? The Reds have money for a plane ticket, don't they?

redsmetz
04-19-2007, 04:25 PM
I think the real question is why would Coffey have to take the bus? The Reds have money for a plane ticket, don't they?

I think for a hundred mile trip, a plane wouldn't be the best option - he probably can driver himself down.

butlerbulldogs
04-19-2007, 07:41 PM
Call me crazy but isn't that just Coffey's 2nd poor outing???

call me crazy, but it is only the 14th game of the season 2/14= 14% of the games, and he hasn't pitched in all of them...so yeah it may be only his second poor outing, but it is also reallly early in the season

i would send him to the minors, not sure how it'd help, he is lights out w/ a 6 run lead, i think it is all in his head

butlerbulldogs
04-19-2007, 09:32 PM
go ahead and put the rest of the bullpen on the bus with him, i think next start Arroyo deserves to go a complete game, no matter how many pitches he throws or runs he allows...the kids gonna have an 0-3 record with a 3 era, unbelievable!!

Degenerate39
04-19-2007, 11:06 PM
Just send the whole bullpen to AAA. I'll be the closer.

gonelong
04-20-2007, 12:08 AM
I know everyone wants to dwell on the negative about Coffey's performance last night but he did get Biggio to strike out bunting foul. From what I've read on this board, any major league hitter should be able to lay down a bunt. And a guy who has played as long as Biggio who is the kind of player who would specialize in that sort of thing should be able to do it with no problem. But he couldn't get the bunt down which leads me to believe that 1. Laying down a bunt isn't as easy as everyone thinks it is and 2. The best defense against a bunt is a pitcher with a really good fastball. I doubt anyone in the Reds bullpen can throw as hard as Coffey. Yes, Coffey hit a guy and allowed a single to Berkman. But he did manage to get 2 outs that inning.

Nicely stated. I miss the days where this type of post wouldn't have been neccessary on such a frequent basis.

GL

Krusty
04-20-2007, 12:12 AM
Coffey for Lidge.

Count my vote as a yes.

kaldaniels
04-20-2007, 12:14 AM
Nicely stated. I miss the days where this type of post wouldn't have been neccessary on such a frequent basis.

GL


I agree...I almost just chalk this thread up to the fact is it is early in the season which is one of the peak times for armchair GMing. Wait till August...it will be nice when 2 poor outings don't start up a thread to ship a guy to the minors. Wait....this is Redszone....who am I kidding. :bang:

Redus
05-08-2007, 11:38 AM
Anyone still think he doesnt need a trip to AAA?

membengal
05-08-2007, 11:41 AM
Me. I don't.

zombie-a-go-go
05-08-2007, 11:45 AM
My opinion is that he needs some stressless time to get his act together again, and he can do that better with the Bats than with the Reds. Coffey's got the goods, he just hasn't been bringing them to the mound with him.

Matt700wlw
05-08-2007, 03:03 PM
Maybe they need to give him a different role, if nothing else. I don't think I could argue a AAA stint, either.

He seems to more often than not blow games late when the pressure is on.


He definitely is lacking the mentality to handle it right now.

Will M
05-08-2007, 03:09 PM
i turned the game off last night when he came in.

send him to AAA for a few weeks. He has the 'stuff' so I am not ready to give up on him.
Replace him with Marcus McBeth, Calvin Medlock or Majewski.

WVRedsFan
05-08-2007, 03:11 PM
Anyone still think he doesnt need a trip to AAA?

IMHO, he will learn nothing at Louisville (except blowing away AAA hitters) that he can't learn up here. He needs to change his pitch sequence and pick the places he throws his fastball. I also think all the work has gotten to him lately.

Isn't it intertesting that when Krivksy grants a person an extention they seem to go into the toilet? Coincidence?

Always Red
05-08-2007, 03:54 PM
Coincidence?

I think not!

I've noticed the same.

REDREAD
05-08-2007, 05:16 PM
It seemed to me that that splitter that he threw to Lane just didn't break.. Mistakes happen.

I don't think a trip to AAA will do him any good. He needs on the job training. He won't learn how to pitch to ML hitters in AAA.. All pitchers occasionally hang a breaking pitch.

I'm willing to cut Coffey some slack. This is part of the growing pains with having young guys in the bullpen.. that's what most people want, right? To give the young guys a chance.. Well, keep in mind that youngsters will have their growing pains.

I sincerely doubt anyone we have in AAA will be better than Coffey.

Cedric
05-08-2007, 09:05 PM
Coffey is a good mop up pitcher, nothing more. He doesn't locate well at all and that's not something that changes much in a career. He's basically batting practice.

GAC
05-08-2007, 09:08 PM
The bottomline is.... you can't keep trotting some of these guys out there night after night, not seeing what they are doing, and the fact they are the worst bullpen in MLB right now, and expect them to somehow self-correct themselves and get it together. We'll be 20 games out with this "lets just hold on" attitude until Everyday Eddie or Bray comes back.

Todd Coffey basically has two pitches.... a slider and fastball (split finger). The slider is not working for him, and hitters have learned to lay off of it because they know what his next pitch will be. They are waiting in anticipation for it. They're salivating. That is why he is getting nailed.

Even if we think the guys we have down in the minors could do no better, we need to do something to shake this BP up and upset the "comfort zone" some of those guys are in.

Not everyone in the BP has been consistently bad. It's the inconsistency overall. But they have to try something.

We've had 17 quality starts this year from our rotation. That is amazing. And the bats are starting to come around. But it does affect a team, and sooner or later, in that clubhouse, people are gonna start pointing fingers, when leads are consistently being blown like they have been doing.

Cedric
05-08-2007, 09:29 PM
The bottomline is.... you can't keep trotting some of these guys out there night after night, not seeing what they are doing, and the fact they are the worst bullpen in MLB right now, and expect them to somehow self-correct themselves and get it together. We'll be 20 games out with this "lets just hold on" attitude until Everyday Eddie or Bray comes back.

Todd Coffey basically has two pitches.... a slider and fastball (split finger). The slider is not working for him, and hitters have learned to lay off of it because they know what his next pitch will be. They are waiting in anticipation for it. They're salivating. That is why he is getting nailed.

Even if we think the guys we have down in the minors could do no better, we need to do something to shake this BP up and upset the "comfort zone" some of those guys are in.

Not everyone in the BP has been consistently bad. It's the inconsistency overall. But they have to try something.

We've had 17 quality starts this year from our rotation. That is amazing. And the bats are starting to come around. But it does affect a team, and sooner or later, in that clubhouse, people are gonna start pointing fingers, when leads are consistently being blown like they have been doing.

And his fastball is incredibly hittable. Did anyone notice how bad his location was last night? Even Chris mentioned it and two pitches later he gave up a bomb. It never gets better with Todd. I like the guy, just don't expect much ever from him.

Patrick Bateman
05-09-2007, 12:25 AM
I for one am still not worried about Coffey. Tonight I was going through some of his deeper stats to come up with a reason on why he was struggling so badly.

An interesting thing I noticed was the amount of homeruns he was giving up for each flyball (33.3%). This seemed weird, because generally homeruns are a reflection of the amount of flyballs you give up rather than simply throwing really bad pitches. Generally even pitchers that give up a ton of homeruns don't have enormous HR/flyball rates, but instead simply pitch high in the zone and give up tons of flyballs.

Take Milton for example. Since he has become a very bad pitcher and homerun artist (2004) he has posted homerun/flyball rates of 13.5%, 13.1%, and 11.2%. Nobody has been worse about giving up homers as Milton does, so I find it difficult to believe that Coffey is doing nearly 3 times as bad as Milton does at giving up homers.

In addition, Coffey's ground ball rates and flyballs rates have been nearly identical to last seasons. He has the same trends, so it's tough to believe that he has deserved to give up as many homers as he has.

This information leads me to the conclusion that Coffey's increase in homers is due to a combination of unfortunate luck, and very good hitting by the opposition. I think if these two things normalized that Coffey would give up exceedingly less homers.

It's easy to say that you can tell just by watching him that he's throwing gopher balls, but some of the less superficial stats simply show that the current rate that he is doing this is unsustainable.

Combine this with Coffey's strikeout rate jump (6.92 to 9.92) this season and similar control to last season, and I think Coffey is ready to burst out with success. The only thing standing in the way of him making strides this seaosn is his ability to control homeruns. His homerun rate may continue increasing from last season as this stat is one that is variable to effectiveness, but the current rate is unnormally high. At a bare minimum, his flyball/homerun rate should be less than Milton's. With his groundball/flyball rate being similar to last season, expect the homerun to take a sharp decrease and Coffey to regain form from last season.

mth123
05-09-2007, 04:36 AM
I for one am still not worried about Coffey. Tonight I was going through some of his deeper stats to come up with a reason on why he was struggling so badly.

An interesting thing I noticed was the amount of homeruns he was giving up for each flyball (33.3%). This seemed weird, because generally homeruns are a reflection of the amount of flyballs you give up rather than simply throwing really bad pitches. Generally even pitchers that give up a ton of homeruns don't have enormous HR/flyball rates, but instead simply pitch high in the zone and give up tons of flyballs.

Take Milton for example. Since he has become a very bad pitcher and homerun artist (2004) he has posted homerun/flyball rates of 13.5%, 13.1%, and 11.2%. Nobody has been worse about giving up homers as Milton does, so I find it difficult to believe that Coffey is doing nearly 3 times as bad as Milton does at giving up homers.

In addition, Coffey's ground ball rates and flyballs rates have been nearly identical to last seasons. He has the same trends, so it's tough to believe that he has deserved to give up as many homers as he has.

This information leads me to the conclusion that Coffey's increase in homers is due to a combination of unfortunate luck, and very good hitting by the opposition. I think if these two things normalized that Coffey would give up exceedingly less homers.

It's easy to say that you can tell just by watching him that he's throwing gopher balls, but some of the less superficial stats simply show that the current rate that he is doing this is unsustainable.

Combine this with Coffey's strikeout rate jump (6.92 to 9.92) this season and similar control to last season, and I think Coffey is ready to burst out with success. The only thing standing in the way of him making strides this seaosn is his ability to control homeruns. His homerun rate may continue increasing from last season as this stat is one that is variable to effectiveness, but the current rate is unnormally high. At a bare minimum, his flyball/homerun rate should be less than Milton's. With his groundball/flyball rate being similar to last season, expect the homerun to take a sharp decrease and Coffey to regain form from last season.

This is a good informative post and I agree with it. I think this lends some credence to those who are claiming that Coffey is just making a few mistakes that get pounded hard.

My observation is that Coffey ideally pitches every other day. He seems to get out of synch when he rests too much. The reason he didn't work well as a closer last season IMO is because he sat without pitching for several days in a row while the rest of the pen was unable to get the game to the 9th. When he finally did get a chance, he was completely messed-up from inactivity. This year, he's made a few bad pitch selections (left in bad locations) that have really cost him. His most recent problems have come after pitching one third of an inning between April 24 and May 3. He followed this with a decent outing getting 4 outs on May 3 (but uncharacteristically walked a guy), then struggled to get 2 outs on May 4th (with 2 walks), then on May 5 started giving up runs. Coffey doesn't usually walk many and 3 walks in 2 innings after a fairly long period of inactivity in hindsight seems like it was a tip-off of the two bad outings that followed. Its a very small number of innings to go on, but it looks like a "location" problem brought on by inactivity (same problem I remember during his closer stint in 2006 - walks and fat ones that get pounded).

Many have concluded that last year's closing problems coupled with this year's poor results are an indication that Coffey has melted down, can't handle the pressure and won't be able to repeat or fulfill the promise he had shown. I suspect that Coffey will turn things around and he'll finish the season as the most effective bullpen pitcher on the roster. AK's post seems to indicate that Coffey still has most of the elements of good pitching that got him to his late inning role in the first place.

I think Coffey's turn around will come from 1 part luck, plus 1 part better pitch selection, plus one part more stable usage pattern (and the better command that seems to go with it). I'm not worried about Coffey long-term either. I was in favor of a AAA stint for 10 days or so to get him straightened out and on a regular schedule, but that was more to make room for a change than anything. I think he'll be ok and possibly the 1,2,3 inning on Tuesday is the start. I hope he gets into a decent pattern that approximates every other day usage now.