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Kc61
04-18-2007, 11:33 PM
Some of the Reds' bullpen guys are having trouble. There are many people at AAA who soon could be ready to pitch for the major league team.

Majewski. Burton (Rule 5, has to come up at some point). Dumatrait (pitching well). Salmon (pitching well). Livingston. Eventually Bray. And ultimately Bailey. At AA, Medlock is pitching very well and probably should be at AAA.

After bullpen meltdowns like tonight, hopefully Reds will be thinking about some of these possibilities.

redsrule2500
04-19-2007, 12:12 AM
I'm sooo sick of bullpen problems, but yet again, here they are.

Spring~Fields
04-19-2007, 03:06 AM
Let's blame it on the guys that did not want to spend a buck on the bullpen or bench over the winter. Oh well. Number 7 on the way.

mth123
04-19-2007, 05:14 AM
Good post KC.

I personally think that Coffey will still prove to be the best pitcher in the pen overall, but given the depth, I wouldn't be opposed to a quick 2 week stint in AAA to get him in a groove.

I'd probably not consider Burton an option until his rehab time runs out. Once he's up on the big league roster, it will be hard to send him back down.

The Reds stated that Majewski needs to be able to pitch back to back days without feeling pain in day 3 before he's recalled and I don't know where that stands at this point.

Dumatrait and Livingston appear to be the main choices to replace Milton right now and I keep them on a starters schedule until the time comes (its coming soon).

Bailey needs to stay on a starters routine to build his innings this season. He isn't a pen option until 2008 IMO.

Bray isn't ready yet.

So ... I'd probably give Salmon a look while Coffey straightens himself out.

In the mean time, the phone lines need to be heating up in an effort to move Cormier. The Reds will need some roster room soon and could use an upgrade over Hopper as a RH bench bat.

BRM
04-19-2007, 09:15 AM
Some of the Reds position players aren't getting it done either. We can't send everyone down.

Coffey has had two bad outings and one of those is partly Narron's fault for pitching him three days in a row. Just demote him to low leverage situations for awhile and let him get his confidence back. I'd have no problem if Cormier was DFA'ed though.

camisadelgolf
04-19-2007, 09:20 AM
I don't think Coffey has options.

Eric_Davis
04-19-2007, 11:01 AM
I'm sooo sick of bullpen problems, but yet again, here they are.

I'm so sick of whiners, but yet again, here they are.

:(

M2
04-19-2007, 11:47 AM
Stepping up to the 90-win level always involves a lot of ifs.

For instance, if the Reds want to climb to a new level, they're probably going to need Salmon and Dumatrait/Livingston to deliver something at the major league level this season.

flyer85
04-19-2007, 11:53 AM
veteran scrappiness should not be underrated. :D

PuffyPig
04-19-2007, 01:12 PM
Coffey has had two bad outings and one of those is partly Narron's fault for pitching him three days in a row.

Giving up a 2 out ground ball single to the opposite field to Berkman does not qualify as a bad outing. It happens to the best of them.

Coffey is going nowhere at this time, nor should he.

LoganBuck
04-19-2007, 01:21 PM
I don't think Coffey has options.

Coffey has options he was on the list earlier on during the spring of players with options remaining put out by the Reds.

Here is the list: http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/redsinsider/2007/03/options-and-milton.asp

MartyFan
04-19-2007, 01:32 PM
Let's blame it on the guys that did not want to spend a buck on the bullpen or bench over the winter. Oh well. Number 7 on the way.

I still think not spending money on pitchers this off season was the right move...stupid money spent on mediocre pitching...the Reds are not outclassed by most teams in pitching or players...they are outspent but not outclassed.

RedsManRick
04-19-2007, 01:55 PM
Just a quick thought. If you cut/trade guys and call-up the guys in AAA, what happens when they struggle? I'm all for putting the best 6/7 guys in the pen. That said, everybody will struggle at some point, and if you move to your backups in an irreversible manner, you basically marry yourself to their performance.

As frustrating as a Cormier might be, I'm not at all convinced Livingston or Dumatrait would be any better. I can picture the "Livingston sucks, who else is out there?" posts come July...

BRM
04-19-2007, 02:21 PM
Giving up a 2 out ground ball single to the opposite field to Berkman does not qualify as a bad outing. It happens to the best of them.

Coffey is going nowhere at this time, nor should he.

Good point. I stand corrected.

CTA513
04-19-2007, 02:31 PM
Just a quick thought. If you cut/trade guys and call-up the guys in AAA, what happens when they struggle? I'm all for putting the best 6/7 guys in the pen. That said, everybody will struggle at some point, and if you move to your backups in an irreversible manner, you basically marry yourself to their performance.

As frustrating as a Cormier might be, I'm not at all convinced Livingston or Dumatrait would be any better. I can picture the "Livingston sucks, who else is out there?" posts come July...

Mass chaos

shredda2000
04-19-2007, 02:52 PM
Just a quick thought. If you cut/trade guys and call-up the guys in AAA, what happens when they struggle? I'm all for putting the best 6/7 guys in the pen. That said, everybody will struggle at some point, and if you move to your backups in an irreversible manner, you basically marry yourself to their performance.

As frustrating as a Cormier might be, I'm not at all convinced Livingston or Dumatrait would be any better. I can picture the "Livingston sucks, who else is out there?" posts come July...

Very good point. I am with ya :thumbup:

coachw513
04-19-2007, 03:13 PM
Very good point. I am with ya :thumbup:

I'm more inclined to be concerned that (for me) last night was the first night this year that Narron didn't use the bullpen correctly...seems to me that Saarloos and Stanton both have been used (and have earned the right to be) as the primary setup guys...I know Stanton went 2 IP the night before, but it should've been Saarloos in the 8th inning, with Coffey in case of emergency and Coutlangus for a 1 batter stint vs a lefty...Narron is overvaluing Coffee and Cormier at the moment and last night it bit us...

I realize many would take a much more extreme view of the situation but for me last night was the first instance of improper pen use...

Kc61
04-19-2007, 04:37 PM
I'm more inclined to be concerned that (for me) last night was the first night this year that Narron didn't use the bullpen correctly...seems to me that Saarloos and Stanton both have been used (and have earned the right to be) as the primary setup guys...I know Stanton went 2 IP the night before, but it should've been Saarloos in the 8th inning, with Coffey in case of emergency and Coutlangus for a 1 batter stint vs a lefty...Narron is overvaluing Coffee and Cormier at the moment and last night it bit us...

I realize many would take a much more extreme view of the situation but for me last night was the first instance of improper pen use...

I don't know that I agree it was the first time, but certainly Narron didn't use the relievers effectively last night. Only thing I can think of is that, perhaps, Saarloos wasn't available for some reason. Otherwise, he was the natural eighth inning selection.

Perhaps Narron liked Coffey's ninth inning against the Brewers on Tuesday and wanted to get him out there again. But he shouldn't have in a tight game, since Coffey was pitching 3 days in a row and has been inconsistent.

You would have to think that the bullpen will improve if the team is simply paying attention to what is happening. The late inning guys should be Stanton, Saarloos and Weathers. Coffey, along probably with Bray when he returns, are 6th and 7th inning guys, pitching one or sometimes both innings. Coutlangus is a one or two batter loogy for now. Santos is a long man or middle inning guy.

I didn't include Majewski since I don't know how he will throw when he gets back. And I didn't include Cormier.

Eric_Davis
04-19-2007, 05:13 PM
This seems to be the right place to use some facts about the bullpen going into Thursday Night's game against the Astros.

Fact: Reds relievers have had only one blown save out of seven opportunities. That's 83% or 5th in the league in that category. League average is 68%.

Fact: Reds relievers' opposing OPS is .676 or 7th in the league (16 teams). League average is .690.

Fact: Reds relievers have a 1.17 WHIP or 5th in the league. League average is 1.33

Fact: Reds relievers have given up only 1 stolen base while catching one baserunner. The starters have given up 13 stolen bases while catching only 2 (the biggest disparity in the league).

Fact: The REDS have turned a league-low 7 double-plays. The Mets have turned 23, while half the teams have turned 13 or more. There's a lot of room for improvement here that involves the whole team, not just the pitchers or relievers. Alex Gonzalez' presence and work with Phillips should improve this number along with other things.

Fact: REDS' relievers' Strikeout-to-Walk ratio of 2.47 is 4th best in the league. League average is 1.98.

Fact: REDS' relievers' Strikeouts-per-Nine-innings ratio of 7.93 is 5th best in the league. League average is 7.03.

Fact: The REDS hitters come alive while the relievers are in. Their 5.14 runs per nine-innings ratio while the relievers are the pitcher of record is 2nd in the league. League average is 3.34.

Fact: Hitters are batting only .218 against REDS' relievers for 4th best in the league. League average is .242.

On the downside.....

Fact: REDS' relievers' have a 3.64 ERA for 10th in the league...the next 6 teams are all above 4.00. League average is 3.38

Fact: REDS' relievers have hit 6 batters, most in the league.

Then there's the GAB and statistics that might have a lot to do with playing there.

Fact: REDS' hitters have hit the fewest doubles in the league, 18, and REDS' relievers have given up the third fewest doubles in the league, 8. (REDS' starters have given up the 3rd most doubles in the league.)

Fact: REDS' hitters have hit the 3rd most homeruns in the league, while REDS' relievers have given up the 2nd most homeruns in the league, 5.

Maybe those last two don't have anything to do with the park, but it seems odd that there are so few doubles among our hitters.


Out of all of this, I'm really most impressed by that batting average among our relievers. Except for a few mistake pitches (those homeruns (Lane and Weeks most recently)), they'd really be at the top of the league for a bullpen.

As it is, they are above average for right now.

mth123
04-19-2007, 06:46 PM
Coffey has had two bad outings and one of those is partly Narron's fault for pitching him three days in a row. Just demote him to low leverage situations for awhile and let him get his confidence back. I'd have no problem if Cormier was DFA'ed though.

I'm not really down on Coffey, but his history shows that he needs to pitch fairly frequently to be effective. I'm afraid putting him in a mop-up role will lead to too much idle time and he'll never get straightened out. 10 Days to 2 weeks at AAA pitching at least every other day with a couple back to backs sprinkled in is what he needs IMO. Not so much because he needs AAA, but because the workload can't really be controlled at the major league level.

I think he'd be back by the end of April and on a roll when he gets here.

Eric_Davis
04-19-2007, 07:31 PM
Stepping up to the 90-win level always involves a lot of ifs.

For instance, if the Reds want to climb to a new level, they're probably going to need Salmon and Dumatrait/Livingston to deliver something at the major league level this season.


Without a doubt. I'm going to enjoy watching them play and seeing what happens. Those of you lucky enough to watch them down at AAA live should enjoy it, too.