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View Full Version : Why keep bringing Coffey in?



fewfirstchoice
04-19-2007, 02:45 AM
Why does Narron keep bringing in Coffey in close games.Coffey has proven over the last couple years that he faulters in close game situations.Narron is completely clueless.If there is a worse manager in all of baseball I would like for someone to point him out to me.You cant because Dusty Baker and Don Baylor arent out there any more.So that just leaves Narron,one word terrible.

Ron Madden
04-19-2007, 02:50 AM
Todd Coffey pitched pretty well in some close games last year.

foltza
04-19-2007, 04:00 AM
deja vu on the board. this thread will be interesting in the morning

UK Reds Fan
04-19-2007, 04:06 AM
I believe we'll see less and less of Coffey after this outing. With Sarloos, Santos, Stanton and Cout pitching very good and Weathers in the closer spot...I just don't think we'll see Coffey unless it is games out of hand either way.

Does Coffey have options to AAA if/when Maj or Bray get healthy? That may be a better option to help Coffey get it together.

Spring~Fields
04-19-2007, 04:16 AM
Narron suffers from day late dollar short, wrong place at the wrong time syndrome.

MrCinatit
04-19-2007, 08:05 AM
I am sure this has been mentioned before, but Thom was going absolutely crazy in the booth that Narron left Coffey in - stating that Berkman hit weaker right handed (.268/.383/.412/.795 since '87 vs. lefties, and .313/.425/.609/1.035 vs. righties); that Lee was doing miserable against lefties this year - not to mention leftie Luke Scott following.
Sure, hindsight is 20/20 - but he was right. Cormier has traditionally done better against righties. And, it was obvious from the start that Coffey simply did not have it last night.
Was this a case of Coffey not having it, or of Narron once again being outmanaged by the opposition as well as himself?

jojo
04-19-2007, 08:43 AM
Coffey is the best that the Reds have right now....maybe that's why?

rotnoid
04-19-2007, 08:50 AM
In addition, this was supposedly a low stress situation starting off an inning. It would have been a good chance to get the Bill Hall GS monkey off his back. You can't get better or over it sitting on your hands.

jojo
04-19-2007, 08:52 AM
I am sure this has been mentioned before, but Thom was going absolutely crazy in the booth that Narron left Coffey in - stating that Berkman hit weaker right handed (.268/.383/.412/.795 since '87 vs. lefties, and .313/.425/.609/1.035 vs. righties); that Lee was doing miserable against lefties this year - not to mention leftie Luke Scott following.
Sure, hindsight is 20/20 - but he was right. Cormier has traditionally done better against righties. And, it was obvious from the start that Coffey simply did not have it last night.
Was this a case of Coffey not having it, or of Narron once again being outmanaged by the opposition as well as himself?

I watched the game on FSN so i missed Thom's epsiode. I did wonder why Stanton wasn't pitching that inning rather than Coffey/Canadian Tee though...

EDIT: DUH....Stanton had went 2 innings the night before.....

hebroncougar
04-19-2007, 09:00 AM
I am sure this has been mentioned before, but Thom was going absolutely crazy in the booth that Narron left Coffey in - stating that Berkman hit weaker right handed (.268/.383/.412/.795 since '87 vs. lefties, and .313/.425/.609/1.035 vs. righties); that Lee was doing miserable against lefties this year - not to mention leftie Luke Scott following.
Sure, hindsight is 20/20 - but he was right. Cormier has traditionally done better against righties. And, it was obvious from the start that Coffey simply did not have it last night.
Was this a case of Coffey not having it, or of Narron once again being outmanaged by the opposition as well as himself?


It wasn't hindsight at the time. Anyone who has access to those stats, and already has Frenchie warmed up in the pen makes the move. Anyone who is logical that is. Of course, Narron's a baseball guy.

bucksfan2
04-19-2007, 09:23 AM
Coffey is the best that the Reds have right now....maybe that's why?

Are you serious?? Right now Santos has been pitching pretty darn effective and I think should assume the set up roll. In Coffey's last 2 innings he has hit 3 batters. You CANT do that.

jojo
04-19-2007, 09:29 AM
Are you serious?? Right now Santos has been pitching pretty darn effective and I think should assume the set up roll. In Coffey's last 2 innings he has hit 3 batters. You CANT do that.

Santos is a mirage.... I'm talking about actual repeatable skillsets....

chrisj
04-19-2007, 09:53 AM
Hi all. I ranted and raved on about Todd Coffey on another site most of last season. It's just ashame that a starter leaves with a lead and has to sit on the bench biting his fingernails, wondering whether or not he's gonna get a win.

durl
04-19-2007, 10:02 AM
Coffey has hit 4 batters and there's still more than a week left in April. It makes me wonder if he needs to go to Louisville to work on some control issues.

I agree with UK Reds Fan. We have some guys in the bullpen who (so far) appear to be more ready to pitch than Coffey at this time.

chrisj
04-19-2007, 10:07 AM
I have said before that the Reds might as well bring up a few minor leaguers to test them out as relievers, and send screwups like Coffey back down for awhile. I cannot for the life of me understand why Narron keeps putting that guy in. Setting up? Yeah, he's setting things up for the other team to win.

rotnoid
04-19-2007, 10:13 AM
It's just ashame that a starter leaves with a lead and has to sit on the bench biting his fingernails, wondering whether or not he's gonna get a win.


I hear Bronson got down the the first knuckle on his left hand last year.

bucksfan2
04-19-2007, 10:49 AM
Santos is a mirage.... I'm talking about actual repeatable skillsets....

The only repeatable skill set that I see from Coffey is his propensity for hitting people and blowing games. Santos on the other hand has looked solid all year long. There have been many pitchers who have been able to resurrect their career by moving to the bullpen. Right now I really dont care about the skill set that either possess. I dont care if stats show that Coffey is a better reliever than Santos. All I see is Santos is producing and Coffey is not.

jojo
04-19-2007, 11:16 AM
The only repeatable skill set that I see from Coffey is his propensity for hitting people and blowing games. Santos on the other hand has looked solid all year long. There have been many pitchers who have been able to resurrect their career by moving to the bullpen. Right now I really dont care about the skill set that either possess. I dont care if stats show that Coffey is a better reliever than Santos. All I see is Santos is producing and Coffey is not.

Each to their own I guess.

I would like to point one thing out though....this "Coffey isn't producing/hasn't produced all year" crap needs to stop. He's had 2 bad outings in 10 so far this season. It's the nature of being a reliever that your bad outing is probably going impact the w-l column. Lets keep things both factual AND in perspective when ranting.....

Basically, Narron was a victim of some misfortune/previous decisions. He brought Stanton in the previous night to get him some work and burnt him for 2 innings making him unavailable for last night. Coffey also had pitched but blew through his inning in like 7 pitches meaning Coffey could go again last night. That meant, Narron really only had two lefties available-Cormier and Coutlingus. One is a tee the other a rookie. Cormier isn't exactly a fireman against right handed bats but I won't argue with the logic of turning Berkman around. But Cormier would've been fodder for Lee. They needed Stanton last night.

mound_patrol
04-19-2007, 11:23 AM
Maybe if Coffey actually got a day off he'd be able to come in and pitch the way he's capable of pitching. Pitching back to back to back days is pretty tough on the arm. It seems like he has pitched in atleast 3/4ths of the games so far.

UK Reds Fan
04-19-2007, 11:23 AM
Coffey is the best that the Reds have right now....maybe that's why?

No basis for that opinion...other than just a gut feelings. Facts display a different viewpoint.

1. Santos, whom you refer to as a mirage. Maybe or maybe not.
2. Sarloos has been outstanding all year.
3. Stanton is still perfect on the season
4. Coutlangas has been strong all spring and so far.
5. Weathers, but for now he is the closer.

Outside of Cormier, we have reasonable faith in those arms in the pen to some degree.

There are plenty of other options, but I'll give Narron a pass. I think we'll see less and less of Coffey until he proves himself in less pressure situations. We have more bullets in the gun, not to mention Bray and Maj in AAA down the road.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
04-19-2007, 11:26 AM
Santos is a mirage.... I'm talking about actual repeatable skillsets....
Forget skillsets, getting it done is getting it done and right now Cof is a mess. I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet but somebody tell me why with a hitter like Berkman at the plate hitting lefthanded you pitch him on the outside corner with the shortstop playing two steps from second base. I didn't look to see where ross was set up, but whoever made that decision is at fault IMO.

AdamDunn
04-19-2007, 11:27 AM
Coffey will be fine. He's screwed up a couple of times and hasn't had the control or command that he had last year. He'll work it out with Pole and get back to his old form. Just put him in some non-pressure situations for a while until he gets his stuff worked out. In three weeks, he'll be back to his old self again.

markymark69
04-19-2007, 11:28 AM
Maybe if Coffey actually got a day off he'd be able to come in and pitch the way he's capable of pitching. Pitching back to back to back days is pretty tough on the arm. It seems like he has pitched in atleast 3/4ths of the games so far.

I'm line with this thinking. I was really surprised he was on the mound for a third consecutive day. I like Coffey and I still think he will be a useful asset out of the 'pen, but Narron and Pole must be careful not to overuse him or anyone else in the 'pen. Three days in a row is tough for a pitcher.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
04-19-2007, 11:28 AM
Maybe if Coffey actually got a day off he'd be able to come in and pitch the way he's capable of pitching. Pitching back to back to back days is pretty tough on the arm. It seems like he has pitched in atleast 3/4ths of the games so far.
I agree 100%, I was shocked that he was in there last night. We have too much bullpen depth in the bigs/minors to keep running him out there like that.

BRM
04-19-2007, 11:29 AM
Forget skillsets, getting it done is getting it done and right now Cof is a mess. I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet but somebody tell me why with a hitter like Berkman at the plate hitting lefthanded you pitch him on the outside corner with the shortstop playing two steps from second base. I didn't look to see where ross was set up, but whoever made that decision is at fault IMO.

The decision to let Berkman hit left-handed was the biggest mistake. Three lefties in the pen for Narron to use to turn Berkman around and he stays with a right-hander. :help:

flyer85
04-19-2007, 11:29 AM
Pitching him the 3rd day in a row was not a good idea.

If the pen had a 5th RH instead of the useless Cormier then Coffey would probably not have pitched.

Narron screwed up(one of multiple mistakes) by not double switching so he could have pitched Santos 2 innings and then gone to Weathers.

It really wasn't fair to run Coffey out for a third day in a row when there were other well rested pitchers.

Far East
04-19-2007, 11:33 AM
Perhaps the question should be: "Why keep taking out the pitchers who are doing well?"

For example:

Harang on Wednesday night (I do know that they were concerned about his pitch count),

Santos on Wednesday night,

Even Coffey on Wednesday night (I'd basically ignore any hit batsmen stat),

Loshe on his last outing (even though Weathers ultimately did finish OK).

Razor Shines
04-19-2007, 11:45 AM
No basis for that opinion...other than just a gut feelings. Facts display a different viewpoint.

1. Santos, whom you refer to as a mirage. Maybe or maybe not.
2. Sarloos has been outstanding all year.
3. Stanton is still perfect on the season
4. Coutlangas has been strong all spring and so far.
5. Weathers, but for now he is the closer.

Outside of Cormier, we have reasonable faith in those arms in the pen to some degree.

There are plenty of other options, but I'll give Narron a pass. I think we'll see less and less of Coffey until he proves himself in less pressure situations. We have more bullets in the gun, not to mention Bray and Maj in AAA down the road.

I have to say I'm with jojo on this one. As far as "stuff" goes, Coffey is the best the Reds have in the pen. Santos may continue to have a fine season, but there are very few pitchers who can consistently get away with what he's getting away with. I hope he does, and I'm all for running him out there as long as he's getting people out. I do disagree with Narron's decision to go with Coffey last night only because he'd pitched the last two nights, but he did only throw 7 pitches the night before so I don't think it was a horrible decision.

44Magnum
04-19-2007, 11:50 AM
Blame it all on Narron. He pitches the same guys out of the bullpen every day. Just imagine how they will be in June.

I think he should have left Harang in for the 7th. I think Narron makes moves sometimes just for the sake of making moves.

Razor Shines
04-19-2007, 11:54 AM
Blame it all on Narron. He pitches the same guys out of the bullpen every day. Just imagine how they will be in June.

I think he should have left Harang in for the 7th. I think Narron makes moves sometimes just for the sake of making moves.

If you mean the same 7 guys then you'd be correct. Of course he only has 7.

jojo
04-19-2007, 11:57 AM
No basis for that opinion...other than just a gut feelings. Facts display a different viewpoint.

You can argue that about my position only if you completely ignore the reasons for my position. I'm not sure why you'd do that.


1. Santos, whom you refer to as a mirage. Maybe or maybe not.

Unless you expect his BABIP to hover around .100 all season, i wouldn't hitch my wagon to that horse...


2. Sarloos has been outstanding all year. sigh

3. Stanton is still perfect on the season I think he's probably their second best pitcher in the pen.

4. Coutlangas has been strong all spring and so far. Spring numbers moves me less than a pound of cheese and a lard sandwhich. He's basically a big unknown-just the kind of guy you want in a high leverage situation?

5. Weathers, but for now he is the closer. A mirage or maybe better thought of as an implosion waiting to happen....think of him as Rick White's lucky twin.

We obviously evaluate pitchers differently. Evaluating relief pitchers based upon recent trends, is a rocky ride because it's a volatile business and regression to the mean is a cold hearted *****. I prefer to evaluate pitchers based upon their skillsets and accurately assess their *means*. Clearly, from a skillset point of view, Coffey is the best the Reds have right now.

minus5
04-19-2007, 11:58 AM
Coffey has hit 4 batters and there's still more than a week left in April. It makes me wonder if he needs to go to Louisville to work on some control issues.
.

He's also allowed 10 hits in that same time (8.1 innings).

I'm not down on Coffey, I do think he'll come around but right now he does seem to have some issues.

flyer85
04-19-2007, 12:00 PM
I guess some people are forgetting what a fantastic start Coffey got off to last season.

He is a solid middle reliever, nothing more. The Reds bullpen is entirely comprised of middle relievers ... and worse.

jojo
04-19-2007, 12:04 PM
He is a solid middle reliever, nothing more. The Reds bullpen is entirely comprised of middle relievers ... and worse.

Thats probably a pretty accurate statement IMHO. Arguing over the current flavor that's blowing the save is kind of missing the real problem-it implies there are better options.

Narron may make a questionable decision from time to time but his management of this bullpen isn't going to be what sinks the good ship Redlegs...

flyer85
04-19-2007, 12:08 PM
Narron may make a questionable decision from time to time but his management of this bullpen isn't going to be what sinks the good ship Redlegs...in the end it will be the overall lack of talent that catches up to the Reds, both on offense and in pitching.

That Lincecum guy would look really good at the back of the bullpen.

osuceltic
04-19-2007, 12:17 PM
The guy was good the first two months of last season. Check out his numbers since. Maybe he just isn't as good as some here think.

flyer85
04-19-2007, 12:19 PM
The guy was good the first two months of last season. Check out his numbers since. Maybe he just isn't as good as some here think. ... and could the same be said of others in the pen who have gotten off to "hot" starts this season?

BRM
04-19-2007, 12:19 PM
The guy was good the first two months of last season. Check out his numbers since. Maybe he just isn't as good as some here think.

He was very good in September last year too. He had three good months and three bad ones in 2006.

IslandRed
04-19-2007, 12:21 PM
We obviously evaluate pitchers differently. Evaluating relief pitchers based upon recent trends, is a rocky ride because it's a volatile business and regression to the mean is a cold hearted *****. I prefer to evaluate pitchers based upon their skillsets and accurately assess their *means*. Clearly, from a skillset point of view, Coffey is the best the Reds have right now.

For what it's worth -- not taking a side on Coffey either way -- there are two different questions being debated. Your quote is absolutely true if you're using the macro view to decide which pitchers should be on your roster. But the macro view is an aggregate of hot, cold and normal streaks, and when deciding who should go into a critical situation on any given night (the micro view), the reliever's recent trend line ought not be totally ignored.

Always Red
04-19-2007, 12:22 PM
Perhaps the question should be: "Why keep taking out the pitchers who are doing well?"

For example:

Harang on Wednesday night (I do know that they were concerned about his pitch count),

Santos on Wednesday night,

Even Coffey on Wednesday night (I'd basically ignore any hit batsmen stat),

Loshe on his last outing (even though Weathers ultimately did finish OK).

That's too easy to 2nd guess, IMO. Harang had "twinges" in his back, which is why he was taken out.

If he leaves Santos in, and Santos gets hammered, then it's "Why did doofus Jerry leave him in there too long?" (It's only a question of when Santos will get hammered as he has before, not if). We've read that before on these pages.

I think Jerry Narron is an OK manager. Not great, not terrible. Everything he does will be 2nd guessed here by someone.

Me? I'd much rather have Coffey in with a one run lead than Victor Santos, even today. Santos has been pitching well, but Coffey has a much better track record. BTW, on two of Coffey's hit batters, they were nearly strikes.

If Victor continues to do this, say, through May, well then he's earned a promotion, IMO.

bucksfan2
04-19-2007, 12:23 PM
We obviously evaluate pitchers differently. Evaluating relief pitchers based upon recent trends, is a rocky ride because it's a volatile business and regression to the mean is a cold hearted *****. I prefer to evaluate pitchers based upon their skillsets and accurately assess their *means*. Clearly, from a skillset point of view, Coffey is the best the Reds have right now.


Judging a pitcher by their skill set is a slippery slope. Pitching is more than what kind of pitches you can throw. Coffey may have the best stuff of any reliever on the current club. That doesn't mean that he is the best option. Weathers has a diminishing skill set but he has been around long enough to know how to get batters out. Santos right now may not have the best skill set but he is getting batters out. Look at the starting rotatoin. The pitcher with the best skill set is Lohse but he pales in comparison to both Harang and Arroyo when it comes to pitching.

EddieMilner
04-19-2007, 12:28 PM
did mroby get banned? i expected him to be up on a soap box this morning.

jojo
04-19-2007, 12:45 PM
Judging a pitcher by their skill set is a slippery slope. Pitching is more than what kind of pitches you can throw. Coffey may have the best stuff of any reliever on the current club. That doesn't mean that he is the best option. Weathers has a diminishing skill set but he has been around long enough to know how to get batters out. Santos right now may not have the best skill set but he is getting batters out. Look at the starting rotatoin. The pitcher with the best skill set is Lohse but he pales in comparison to both Harang and Arroyo when it comes to pitching.

When I say skillset, I'm not talking about a scouting report on a pitcher's "stuff". I'm talking about actual performance using the pitcher's peripherals. It's not arguing semantics-there's an important distinction there. A scouting report in alot of ways is what the pitcher could be. A pitcher's peripherals are what he is. Lohse doesn't have the best skillset because his stuff doesn't translate into his peripherals. Santos' peripherals suggest he's getting batters out by pitching to contact and cheating fate-it's kind of like using powerball as your retirement plan. At some point being Encycopedia Brown won't help you get batters out. Weathers' peripherals suggest he's teetering at that point. By the very nature of the job, relief pitching is volatile. I prefer to ride a pitcher's known ability than a guy's lucky streak when trying to manage the volatility. That's all I'm saying.

flyer85
04-19-2007, 12:50 PM
By the very nature of the job, relief pitching is volatile. I prefer to ride a pitcher's known ability than a guy's lucky streak when trying to manage the volatility. That's all I'm saying.Having some depth and realizing the lucky streaks(which can sometimes last for half a season) when they occur can lead to an reasonably effective bullpen. However, you have to know that the Reds bullpen is chock full of questionable peripherals and that for almost all of them their payback is only a matter of when, not if.

tbball10
04-21-2007, 01:34 AM
with the way coffey has been pitching lately, i was hoping majewski or burton would be ready soon. but, i was encouraged by coffey's outing tonight. it seemed like he mixed up his pitches more effectively tonight, and he threw them all for strikes. sometimes i think coffey believes he can come in and just throw his fastball for strikes (not necessarily locate it) and get people out. but if he can throw his slider and splitter for strikes as well, i think he will turn around his rough start.