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View Full Version : Unintended Benefit of "The Trade"



TheBigLebowski
04-19-2007, 10:28 AM
Note that this thread is not intended to open old wounds...perhaps it's inevitable not to when "The Trade" is referenced but, this post is designed to put a positive spin on things, months after the monumental deal went down.

Consider what our lineup would be right now had The Trade never happened.

C Ross
1B Sceff Coberg
2B Phillips
SS FeLo
3B EE (Will assume we'd still let Aurilia go via FA)
OF Kearns
OF Dunn
OF Jr
Freel still in a utility role.

Lopez is still an awful defensive SS. It does not appear to me that Kearns is ever going to be anything more than an average to above-average hitter and a decent defensive outfielder. Outfielders who are capable of hitting 24-30 HR's and batting in the .260's are not that tough to come by.

Now, compare the above to our current lineup. I'll only denote the changes that are directly attributable to The Trade.

OF: Jr/Hammy
OF: Dunn/Hammy
OF: Freel/Hammy
SS: Alex Gonzalez

The team as constructed pre-Trade was only slightly better offensively and quite a bit worse defensively. Alex Gonzalez has been a great addition to the team thus far and, I do not expect that to change.

However, the biggest benefit of The Trade, albeit an unforeseen benefit:

Josh Hamilton.

A Reds team with Kearns, Freel, Denorfia, JR, and Dunn simply does not have room for anyone else. Krivsky would not be out looking for a guy like Josh Hamilton if we still have Austin Kearns. I guess it is not out of the realm of possibilities that Krivs could have still taken a flier on him and stashed him away in Louisville for a while but, I just don't see it. With all the OF's we'd have had at the time, people would have accused him of acting like Jim Bowden.

I'm not trying to defend the deal, nor am I aiming to beat a dead horse. It just occurred to me yesterday, after Hammy hit his 4th HR, that he probably wouldn't be here if we never made that trade. Knowing that, I wouldn't take it back - not anymore.

flyer85
04-19-2007, 10:31 AM
Or think of what the team could have been like if WK had waited until the offseason and traded for real players.

TheBigLebowski
04-19-2007, 10:35 AM
Or think of what the team could have been like if WK had waited until the offseason and traded for real players.

Obviously it was not a good trade. Not trying to beat that dead horse, as I said. Just pointing out that Hamilton would not be here otherwise.

BRM
04-19-2007, 10:36 AM
If Felipe was still here, he'd probably be at 2B with Phillips at SS. Also, I think Wayne gets Hamilton either way. In fact, he would have been easier to hide with the OF depth the Reds would have had with a healthy Deno and Kearns playing RF. The bench would have been much, much stronger with Freel and Hamilton both on the squad.

That said, I agree with flyer. I would have liked to have seen what type of return could have been had in the offseason. I had no issue with moving either player, for the record.

flyer85
04-19-2007, 10:38 AM
Just pointing out that Hamilton would not be here otherwise.why wouldn't he be here? Would Norris Hopper would have his spot?

BRM
04-19-2007, 10:40 AM
Hamilton was going to be a Red with or without The Trade in my opinion.

TheBigLebowski
04-19-2007, 10:43 AM
why wouldn't he be here? Would Norris Hopper would have his spot?


Do you really think Krivsky would have been looking for another OF? I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just don't think he would have been.

BRM
04-19-2007, 10:45 AM
Do you really think Krivsky would have been looking for another OF? I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just don't think he would have been.

I think he would have taken Hamilton anyway. A roster glut at a given position has never stopped Wayne from acquiring a player he likes. I think he would have taken him in the Rule 5 draft and let spring training play out and see what happens.

rdiersin
04-19-2007, 10:45 AM
why wouldn't he be here? Would Norris Hopper would have his spot?


Because Freel would be the backup outfielder? Just a thought. Even if Hamilton was here, he wouldn't have gotten much playing time with having Dunn, Freel, Jr., and Kearns in the outfield. So, yes, Hamilton getting playing time and showing what he can do is one benefit of trading Lopez and Kearns. That doesn't make it a good trade, but it certainly is a benefit.

flyer85
04-19-2007, 10:47 AM
Do you really think Krivsky would have been looking for another OF? with the complete lack of quality ones in the minors, the answer is very simply "yes".

The rule 5 draft is simply another means of acquiring talent. WK had no idea it would turn out as it has to this point. He was simply looking to upgrade the Reds talent at a position that is lacking in the minors.

flyer85
04-19-2007, 10:49 AM
One thing you guys are all forgetting about Hamilton is he is one mistake away of being out of baseball for good(or an extended period of time) and it doesn't have to involve illegal drugs.

Red Leader
04-19-2007, 10:52 AM
Hamilton was going to be a Red with or without The Trade in my opinion.

Completely agree. If Hamilton was available in Rule V, even without The Trade, the Reds would have taken him. That's my opinion. You can't concretely say one way or another though because that's not how things happened in real life.


Because Freel would be the backup outfielder? Just a thought. Even if Hamilton was here, he wouldn't have gotten much playing time with having Dunn, Freel, Jr., and Kearns in the outfield. So, yes, Hamilton getting playing time and showing what he can do is one benefit of trading Lopez and Kearns. That doesn't make it a good trade, but it certainly is a benefit.

Right. Hamilton's playing time and his ability to become a starter could be said to be a benefit of the trade, but not whether or not he's on the team. Tons of scenarios could have happened. You could say that without the trade the Reds had an OF depth chart of: Dunn, Griffey, Kearns, Freel, Denorfia (that's 5), why would they need Hamilton as a 6th, or would they have taken him as a 6th, but nobody will ever know for sure, the answer to that question.

rdiersin
04-19-2007, 10:52 AM
One thing you guys are all forgetting about Hamilton is he is one mistake away of being out of baseball for good(or an extended period of time) and it doesn't have to involve illegal drugs.

Yea, everyone is forgetting that. Thanks for letting me know what I am forgetting. :rolleyes:

I think most people are painfully aware of that. But that really isn't part of what the original poster said, is it? Is it a benefit to get a player with a ton of talent onto the field? Yes. It seems pretty simple to me. Are there possible problems? Certainly.

TheBigLebowski
04-19-2007, 10:53 AM
One thing you guys are all forgetting about Hamilton is he is one mistake away of being out of baseball for good(or an extended period of time) and it doesn't have to involve illegal drugs.

We're all one big mistake away from some bad things. We all know that.

luvdozer
04-19-2007, 10:54 AM
Im not going to take a position on the possible connection between "the trade" and Hamilton's signing.

I am going to ask that we put a quick stop to the use of "Hammy" as a moniker for Josh Hamilton. Its seems like tempting fate for a hamstring injury. Don't we have enough injury prone outfielders already?

flyer85
04-19-2007, 10:56 AM
Is it a benefit to get a player with a ton of talent onto the field? Yes but his future is decidely less optimistic and more cloudy than anyone else out there. He is one small slip up from being gone and that can't be overlooked. If you are planning aheas you had better have a plan B in case the unthinkable happens.

flyer85
04-19-2007, 10:58 AM
We're all one big mistake away from some bad things. He is one SMALL mistake away from being gone.

He is a sip of beer away from being gone.

rdiersin
04-19-2007, 11:03 AM
Yes but his future is decidely less optimistic and more cloudy than anyone else out there. He is one small slip up from being gone and that can't be overlooked. If you are planning aheas you had better have a plan B in case the unthinkable happens.


Yea, and that plan B, would be Freel in CF, Jr. in RF, and Dunn in LF. Also, we shouldn't forget, its not like Kearns doesn't have his own history that we would have to deal with. He's had plenty of injury issues that he isn't exactly a certainty. I still contend it would be less likely Hamilton would have been drafted in the Rule V Draft if Kearns was on the team. With Kearns we would have Freel and Denorfia. The need for Hamilton was not having Kearns, with Freel starting and Denorfia as the only backup. Maybe they would have still picked Hamilton and sent Denorfia down, but I have my doubts.

flyer85
04-19-2007, 11:06 AM
its not like Kearns doesn't have his own history that we would have to deal with. He's had plenty of injury issues that he isn't exactly a certainty. Bringing up injuries and inplying they are the same as multiple year drug suspensions is nothing but a strawman.

If you want to look at injury histories, Jr has a much worse injury history than Kearns and Freel almost as bad. The only OF with not much of an injury problem is Dunn.

rdiersin
04-19-2007, 11:09 AM
Bringing up injuries and inplying they are the same as multiple year drug suspensions is nothing but a strawman.

If you want to look at injury histories, Jr has a much worse injury history than Kearns and Freel almost as bad. The only OF with not much of an injury problem is Dunn.


No its not. I never implied they were the same. I was saying that Kearns being out there the entire time was a certainty. Bringing up Jr's history is a strawman though, considering it is more than likely he would have been a starter either with Kearns being on the field or without.

flyer85
04-19-2007, 11:12 AM
Maybe they would have still picked Hamilton and sent Denorfia down, but I have my doubts.Denorfia got hurt, JR and Freel are accidents waiting to happen. The entire point of drafting Hamilton was adding depth to an organization that has none in the OF, especially so when you add in the injury history of some of the "everyday" players.

BRM
04-19-2007, 11:13 AM
One could argue the biggest benefit from the trade was moving Junior to RF. I doubt Wayne would have wanted Kearns in CF.

rdiersin
04-19-2007, 11:13 AM
Denorfia got hurt, JR and Freel are accidents waiting to happen. The entire point of drafting Hamilton was adding depth to an organization that has none in the OF, especially so when you add in the injury history of some of the "everyday" players.


Denorfia wasn't hurt at the time of the Rule V draft.

flyer85
04-19-2007, 11:13 AM
Denorfia wasn't hurt at the time of the Rule V draft.... but he sure is now. Jr isn't hurt yet either ...

You never really know, thus the point of having depth.

westofyou
04-19-2007, 11:14 AM
Unintended Benefit of "The Trade"

The endless bantering back and forth is the only thing about the trade that won't die.

Red Leader
04-19-2007, 11:16 AM
The endless bantering back and forth is the only thing about the trade that won't die.

I can agree with that...

rdiersin
04-19-2007, 11:20 AM
... but he sure is now. Jr isn't hurt yet either ...

You never really know, thus the point of having depth.

Yes that is true, and last I looked nobody was arguing against having depth. I do question whether or not Hamilton would have been drafted if Kearns was still on the team. If not, then we are in no way deeper now than we were before, outside of the fact Kearns doesn't have a drug problem and Hamilton does. If he still is drafted, then yes we are deeper. But how much? Hamilton would be sitting a whole heck of a lot, which could hurt his ability to come in and contribute if there were an injury.

Chip R
04-19-2007, 11:24 AM
Hamilton was going to be a Red with or without The Trade in my opinion.


They may have still drafted him but would he have made the team?

BRM
04-19-2007, 11:24 AM
They may have still drafted him but would he have made the team?

He would have been a shoe-in once Deno and Hopper went down. I think he would have made it either way with the spring he had, assuming he would have gotten a similar number of at-bats.

Chip R
04-19-2007, 11:27 AM
He would have been a shoe-in once Deno and Hopper went down. I think he would have made it either way with the spring he had, assuming he would have gotten a similar number of at-bats.


Sure, but you don't know if they still would have been injured.

BRM
04-19-2007, 11:29 AM
Sure, but you don't know if they still would have been injured.

Very true.

rdiersin
04-19-2007, 11:30 AM
Sure, but you don't know if they still would have been injured.

or that he would have gotten the same amount of playing time in spring training. I think that he would have, if they drafted him, but it is still an assumption.

BRM
04-19-2007, 11:32 AM
or that he would have gotten the same amount of playing time in spring training. I think that he would have, if they drafted him, but it is still an assumption.

This whole exercise is an assumption. None of knows for sure what Wayne would have done regarding Hamilton. My gut tells me he'd still be a Red. Your gut has doubts. :dunno:

RedEye
04-19-2007, 11:47 AM
Obviously it was not a good trade. Not trying to beat that dead horse, as I said. Just pointing out that Hamilton would not be here otherwise.

Absolutely no way to argue that IMO. It's impossible cause-and-effect.

Wayne still might have made a move for Hamilton as a low risk/high reward type player even without The Trade. AK and FeLo could have been dealt for better players in the offseason (as flyer85 pointed out right away) and we still could have ended up with Hamilton.

Though well-intentioned, your post is no different than all the other ones trying to rationalize The Trade afterwards by saying "See, see? we're better because of it." This is nonsense.

The only players we can evaluate now for being part of The Trade are the ones we got in The Trade. We have three of 'em left: Bray and Majik (both injured) and Daryl Thompson (not doing so badly in A ball right now).

If you want to evaluate The Trade based on the fortunes of the players involved, go ahead. If not, let's just call it a bad deal and move on. Stop trying to figure out how everything relates back to this one deal. It just doesn't work that way.

M2
04-19-2007, 11:59 AM
Stop trying to figure out how everything relates back to this one deal. It just doesn't work that way.

Agreed.

Plus, the Norris Hopper Era is about to dawn (or re-dawn). Time will soon be divided into B.N. (Before Norris) and A.H. (Anno Hoppini) designations.

Red Leader
04-19-2007, 12:04 PM
Agreed.

Plus, the Norris Hopper Era is about to dawn (or re-dawn). Time will soon be divided into B.N. (Before Norris) and A.H. (Anno Hoppini) designations.

Is Norris Hopper related to Greg Oden? :laugh:

flyer85
04-19-2007, 12:05 PM
Time will soon be divided into B.N. (Before Norris) and A.H. (Anno Hoppini) designations. :laugh: ... almost spit my coke all over the keyboard.

Anno Hoppini - would that be the "Year of the One who Hops"

BRM
04-19-2007, 12:06 PM
The Norris Hopper Era? :laugh:

Nice work M2.

pedro
04-19-2007, 12:10 PM
Agreed.

Plus, the Norris Hopper Era is about to dawn (or re-dawn). Time will soon be divided into B.N. (Before Norris) and A.H. (Anno Hoppini) designations.

When the game is in the Seventh Stretch
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars
This is the dawning of the age of Norris
Age of Norris
Nor-ris!
Nor-ris!

Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revelation
And the mind's true liberation
Nor-ris!
Nor-ris!

When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars
This is the dawning of the age of Nor-ris
Age of Nor-ris
Nor-ris!
Nor-ris!
Nor-ris!
Nor-ris!



Let the norris, let nor-ris in, nor-ris in
Let the norris, let nor-ris in, nor-ris in
Let the norris, let nor-ris in, nor-ris in

Oh, let him shine, c'mon
Now everybody just sing along
Let the Nor-ris in
Open up your heart and let him shine on in
When you are lonely, let him shine on
Got to open up your heart and let him shine on in
And when you feel like you've been mistreated
And your friends turn away
Just open your heart, and let Nor-ris in

TheBigLebowski
04-19-2007, 12:10 PM
I was regretting this post until The Anno Hoppini quote. Brilliant.

Thus; let's re-direct.

If I hadn't posted this thread about how Hamilton would not have been a Red if not for The Trade, we'd never have been able to read the Anno Hoppini post.

It all comes full circle. I am a brilliant contributor to this site; likely the Most Valuable Poster. I make the routine look difficult.

REDREAD
04-19-2007, 12:19 PM
Obviously it was not a good trade. Not trying to beat that dead horse, as I said. Just pointing out that Hamilton would not be here otherwise.

We'll never know. With Kearns here, they could've still grabbed him as the 5th OF.. It might've only cost us Conine.

The fact that Wayne grabbed Burton when the bullpen was full of bodies says that he was aggressively using rule V to add talent to the team (which is good).

I'm guessing that if Hamilton would've been picked regardless of his position (for example, even if he played 3b or 2b, despite the fact that we were covered there).

Further evidence was that Wayne picked up Phillips last year, despite having several 2b candidates at the time.. Wayne is trying to grab talent, regardless of position when he can for free.

TheBigLebowski
04-19-2007, 12:22 PM
We'll never know. With Kearns here, they could've still grabbed him as the 5th OF.. It might've only cost us Conine.

The fact that Wayne grabbed Burton when the bullpen was full of bodies says that he was aggressively using rule V to add talent to the team (which is good).

I'm guessing that if Hamilton would've been picked regardless of his position (for example, even if he played 3b or 2b, despite the fact that we were covered there).

Further evidence was that Wayne picked up Phillips last year, despite having several 2b candidates at the time.. Wayne is trying to grab talent, regardless of position when he can for free.


I'm actually inclined to agree with this. Still, I maintain that he would not have received the PT he has to date.

REDREAD
04-19-2007, 12:25 PM
Sure, but you don't know if they still would have been injured.

Jerry wanted him on the team. He would've made the team even if Deno was healthy. Don't you believe Deno would've been optioned down?

It was made pretty obvious last year that the Reds don't think much of Deno. Wayne announced at the time of the trade that it was "Deno's time", and then he was permanently benched about 2 weeks later. Deno is a good glove, but has no pop, and is a very weak hitter. I assume the Reds just consider him organizational filler (much like Hopper) until something better comes along.

Hamilton was a slam dunk to make the team with the spring he had. Narron was looking for any justification to keep him, and Josh made it an easy decision. My guess is that if Josh only hit .230 in the spring, they would've still opened the season with him on the 25 man roster, just to have more time to look at him.. I mean, why wouldn't you do that?

REDREAD
04-19-2007, 12:27 PM
I'm actually inclined to agree with this. Still, I maintain that he would not have received the PT he has to date.

I agree with you on that. With Kearns gone, Hamilton gets more playing time this year, which might ultimately help his career.

zombie-a-go-go
04-19-2007, 12:40 PM
What, are we playing "Seven Degrees of Kevin Bacon" here? :dunno:

TheBigLebowski
04-19-2007, 12:56 PM
What, are we playing "Seven Degrees of Kevin Bacon" here? :dunno:

I do love that game.

Honestly, I acknowledge that this board would be no worse-off if I never authored this ground-breaking post and, it really didn't add too much to the general discourse. Thing is, I really hated The Trade and I'm really excited about Josh Hamilton. I guess I was just trying to create some benefit to The Trade, specious as though my reasoning may have been.

RedEye
04-19-2007, 01:11 PM
I'm actually inclined to agree with this. Still, I maintain that he would not have received the PT he has to date.

Okay... but as other posters have pointed out, there are a number of factors that contributed to this besides The Trade. As I've said many, many times now, we need to let this thing go. (I recognize the irony of this plea since quite a number of my recent posts have indeed been about The Trade, if only to try to get others to stop relating everything that has happened afterwards back to this original Krivsky sin and its "unintentional" or "projected" or "interesting new" or "long term" consequences.)

zombie-a-go-go
04-19-2007, 01:39 PM
I do love that game.

Honestly, I acknowledge that this board would be no worse-off if I never authored this ground-breaking post and, it really didn't add too much to the general discourse. Thing is, I really hated The Trade and I'm really excited about Josh Hamilton. I guess I was just trying to create some benefit to The Trade, specious as though my reasoning may have been.



I'm really excited about Josh Hamilton as well. I'm also excited about steak and potatoes, which, like The Internets, are Serious Business. That having been said, we acknowledge that your motives were as pure as the freshly-driven snow, and you may go your way in peace and/or safety.

:D

zombie-a-go-go
04-19-2007, 01:44 PM
Okay... but as other posters have pointed out, there are a number of factors that contributed to this besides The Trade. As I've said many, many times now, we need to let this thing go. (I recognize the irony of this plea since quite a number of my recent posts have indeed been about The Trade, if only to try to get others to stop relating everything that has happened afterwards back to this original Krivsky sin and its "unintentional" or "projected" or "interesting new" or "long term" consequences.)


I read on The Internets that Krivsky was filing a greivance against Bowden that would force the Nats to give us Cordero because he hosed us on The Trade but if Bowden makes his Saving Throw to Disbelieve Illusion he'll be ale to resist (he gets a -2 penalty to his die roll if we reinforce the illusion, which is why these threads keep popping up).

Chip R
04-19-2007, 01:52 PM
Jerry wanted him on the team. He would've made the team even if Deno was healthy. Don't you believe Deno would've been optioned down?

It was made pretty obvious last year that the Reds don't think much of Deno. Wayne announced at the time of the trade that it was "Deno's time", and then he was permanently benched about 2 weeks later. Deno is a good glove, but has no pop, and is a very weak hitter. I assume the Reds just consider him organizational filler (much like Hopper) until something better comes along.

Hamilton was a slam dunk to make the team with the spring he had. Narron was looking for any justification to keep him, and Josh made it an easy decision. My guess is that if Josh only hit .230 in the spring, they would've still opened the season with him on the 25 man roster, just to have more time to look at him.. I mean, why wouldn't you do that?


If you are talking about Jerry wanting him on the team before the draft, that's not exactly correct. Wayne had planned on drafting him all along. He only told Jerry the night before and and Jerry told him that his brother had coached him when he was younger. I don't know if Deno would have been optioned down. But it would have been one more OFer in the mix. Maybe Hamilton wouldn't have received the playing time he did. You'd have Dunn, Kearns, Deno, Hopper, Crosby, et. al. What if Jr. hadn't broken the bone in his wrist?

Deno was the minor league player from the year before. It may have been a weak field but that had to count for something.

If Hamilton had hit .230 they would have been hard pressed to carry all 5 OFers. Especially when you had 12 pitchers. They had 1 Rule 5 guy in Burton. If Hamilton hadn't produced like he did, I'm guessing he may have very well been back with the Rays. ST numbers may not mean a lot but when you are trying to make a team, hitting .400 carries a lot more weight than hitting .230. If you're a kid and you hit .230 in the spring, no one's going to think you can do better than that once the season starts.

BuckeyeRedleg
04-19-2007, 02:04 PM
What, are we playing "Seven Degrees of Kevin Bacon" here? :dunno:

How about 5 degrees?


Josh Hamilton - Ken Griffey Jr. (teammates, Cincinnati Reds)

Ken Griffey, Jr. - Timothy Busfield (Little Big League)

Timothy Busfield - Robert Redford (Sneakers)

Robert Redford - Brad Pitt (A River Runs Through It)

Brad Pitt - Kevin Bacon (Sleepers)



or



Josh Hamilton - Ken Griffey Jr. (teammates, Cincinnati Reds)

Ken Griffey, Jr. - Jonathan Silverman (Little Big League)

Jonathan Silverman - Andrew McCarthy (Weekend at Bernie's)

Andrew McCarthy - Brad Pitt (Less than Zero)

Brad Pitt - Kevin Bacon (Sleepers)

TheBigLebowski
04-19-2007, 02:20 PM
How about 5 degrees?


Josh Hamilton - Ken Griffey Jr. (teammates, Cincinnati Reds)

Ken Griffey, Jr. - Timothy Busfield (Little Big League)

Timothy Busfield - Robert Redford (Sneakers)

Robert Redford - Brad Pitt (A River Runs Through It)

Brad Pitt - Kevin Bacon (Sleepers)



or



Josh Hamilton - Ken Griffey Jr. (teammates, Cincinnati Reds)

Ken Griffey, Jr. - Jonathan Silverman (Little Big League)

Jonathan Silverman - Andrew McCarthy (Weekend at Bernie's)

Andrew McCarthy - Brad Pitt (Less than Zero)

Brad Pitt - Kevin Bacon (Sleepers)

Nicely played.

zombie-a-go-go
04-19-2007, 02:29 PM
How about 5 degrees?

*snip*



:clap:

princeton
04-19-2007, 03:20 PM
I don't think that it's "unintended" as the thread title suggests.

I think that the idea all along has been that the defense had to be overhauled, and that it's much easier to find young OFers than it is to find young pitching.

I always thought that Bowden's problem was that he wouldn't trade hitters for pitching, in spite of the fact that he showed many times that he was good at locating low-priced, productive hitters. Tragic, really.

I'd hate to see him go, but I'd certainly deal EdE for an equivalent young stud pitcher. Hitters, we'll find.

Exploit thy strengths, fill thy weaknesses.

westofyou
04-19-2007, 03:25 PM
I don't think that it's "unintended" as the thread title suggests.

I think that the idea all along has been that the defense had to be overhauled, and that it's much easier to find young OFers than it is to find young pitching.

I always thought that Bowden's problem was that he wouldn't trade hitters for pitching, in spite of the fact that he showed many times that he was good at locating low-priced, productive hitters. Tragic, really.



Many have let the era of inflated hitters diminished the balance that defense and pitching give the game. None more then Bowden and the wake it turns up leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

Benihana
04-19-2007, 03:39 PM
I don't think that it's "unintended" as the thread title suggests.

I think that the idea all along has been that the defense had to be overhauled, and that it's much easier to find young OFers than it is to find young pitching.

I always thought that Bowden's problem was that he wouldn't trade hitters for pitching, in spite of the fact that he showed many times that he was good at locating low-priced, productive hitters. Tragic, really.

I'd hate to see him go, but I'd certainly deal EdE for an equivalent young stud pitcher. Hitters, we'll find.

Exploit thy strengths, fill thy weaknesses.

If Cabrera becomes a salary casualty in Florida, would you trade EdE for either Scott Olsen or Anibel Sanchez?

M2
04-19-2007, 03:44 PM
Many have let the era of inflated hitters diminished the balance that defense and pitching give the game.

Honestly, I don't think that's the least bit true. Even if you've been rooting for a team that been bereft of pitching and defensive skills, you've seen plenty of opposing teams play it. In fact, I'd Reds fans have been so starved for those skills that they've spent much of this century pretending guys who can't pitch well or play quality defense will mysteriously bring those qualities to the team.

M2
04-19-2007, 03:46 PM
If Cabrera becomes a salary casualty in Florida, would you trade EdE for either Scott Olsen or Anibel Sanchez?

I think there's some concern that Olsen and Sanchez have wounded wings at the moment. ramp might know if he ventures into this thread.

flyer85
04-19-2007, 04:57 PM
One of the things WK could have done is used Kearns to get Cordero and probably something else from the Rangers. Reds would have gotten one pitcher who was more expensive but who is an end of game bat misser, the thing WK has been searching for but has not acquired. Quality always trumps quantity.

Want to trade EE, the need a 3b with a stick in Minnesota. However, you would have to get an OF back(especially with the likely injury issues of Freel and Jr) and a pitcher. I could see a deal for Baker/Slowey and Kubel working out for both teams.

Honestly the Reds really need EE and need him to hit because there are a bunch of guys who very well may not, in terms of OPS. Ross, BP, Gonzalez, Castro, Hatty and Conine are all questionable hitters. The latter two especially in terms of their 1b production. EE is much more likely to produce with the bat than any of the guys listed above.

RedEye
04-19-2007, 11:17 PM
If Cabrera becomes a salary casualty in Florida, would you trade EdE for either Scott Olsen or Anibel Sanchez?

If that happened, then five threads a week would probably relate that to The Trade as well. It just never ends, does it?

WVRedsFan
04-20-2007, 01:32 AM
Lopez is still an awful defensive SS. It does not appear to me that Kearns is ever going to be anything more than an average to above-average hitter and a decent defensive outfielder. Outfielders who are capable of hitting 24-30 HR's and batting in the .260's are not that tough to come by.

Let's see now...

Through 14 games, Gonzo has 3 errors. Lopez has 3 errors in 13 games. Wash?

Felipe is hitting .294 (OBP is .338) while Gonzales is hitting .289(OBP is .364) Wash?

I'd take a 24-30 HR, .260 outfielder right now over Freel who will hit +/- .270, will hit 5 or 6 dingers and will drive in less than 40 runs. Set the table? What for? The amount of runs produced by Kearns will shadow what Freel does in that department. We need a power hitting outfielder to complement Dunn and (hopefully) Griffey. Freel ain't it. Freel is a utility man and nothing else IMHO.

Oh yeah, and we forgot about the return...Gary Majewski and Bill Bray--both in AAA (and doing well I think), who have contributed absolutely nothing to this team while they've been here.

Great trade, n'est pas?

Marc D
04-20-2007, 09:18 AM
I posted this in the game thread so I apologize for the repeat.

Am I the only one who went into a cold sweat last night thinking what WK might do this year if he feels more middle relief might get us to .500? Dunn and EE for a couple more AAA arms(hopefully at least healthy this time)?

westofyou
04-20-2007, 09:24 AM
Through 14 games, Gonzo has 3 errors. Lopez has 3 errors in 13 games. Wash?

If at this junction of your baseball watching life you still think errors are the proper method of measuring the worth of a shortstop then have at it.

Johnny Footstool
04-20-2007, 10:37 AM
How about 5 degrees?


Josh Hamilton - Ken Griffey Jr. (teammates, Cincinnati Reds)

Ken Griffey, Jr. - Timothy Busfield (Little Big League)

Timothy Busfield - Robert Redford (Sneakers)

Robert Redford - Brad Pitt (A River Runs Through It)

Brad Pitt - Kevin Bacon (Sleepers)



or



Josh Hamilton - Ken Griffey Jr. (teammates, Cincinnati Reds)

Ken Griffey, Jr. - Jonathan Silverman (Little Big League)

Jonathan Silverman - Andrew McCarthy (Weekend at Bernie's)

Andrew McCarthy - Brad Pitt (Less than Zero)

Brad Pitt - Kevin Bacon (Sleepers)

Looks like you forgot about a little gem from 2001 called "Summer Catch". Griffey appeared at the end of the film. It looked like borrowed MLB game footage, but he still gets a film credit for it.

Hamilton - Griffey Jr.

Griffey Jr. - Fred Ward (Summer Catch)

Fred Ward - Kevin Bacon (Tremors)

BuckeyeRedleg
04-20-2007, 12:44 PM
Looks like you forgot about a little gem from 2001 called "Summer Catch". Griffey appeared at the end of the film. It looked like borrowed MLB game footage, but he still gets a film credit for it.

Hamilton - Griffey Jr.

Griffey Jr. - Fred Ward (Summer Catch)

Fred Ward - Kevin Bacon (Tremors)

Solid.