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View Full Version : HHow long before Narron and Jacoby are fired?



Jim Fazio
04-22-2007, 08:26 AM
Do you think Narron and/or Jacoby will be fired? If so when? I say by athe all star break if this crap continues.

RFS62
04-22-2007, 08:37 AM
Do you think Narron and/or Jacoby will be fired? If so when? I say by athe all star break if this crap continues.



Well, if Narron doesn't start pitching better, he's definitely on the way out. And Jacoby better stop striking out, or he's toast.

Heath
04-22-2007, 08:40 AM
Well, if Narron doesn't start pitching better, he's definitely on the way out. And Jacoby better stop striking out, or he's toast.

However, Dick Pole has been a major surprise. He can still pitch. And Tom Hume closing? WOW - hasn't been this lights out since '79.

Positives, old man, positives.

reds1869
04-22-2007, 09:26 AM
Narron doesn't swing the bats or throw the pitches. I'm not his biggest fan but he can't play the game for the team. Now, maybe Tracy Jones could. ;)

Carin4Narron
04-22-2007, 09:28 AM
Narron doesn't swing the bats or throw the pitches.
No, but he tells them what to do.

MrCinatit
04-22-2007, 09:28 AM
Narron doesn't swing the bats or throw the pitches. I'm not his biggest fan but he can't play the game for the team. Now, maybe Tracy Jones could. ;)

Maybe? tsk tsk - If Jones were here, we would need no other outfielders, only one infielder, and the pitcher could throw underhanded as he would telepathically make the batter miss every pitch. :D

redsmetz
04-22-2007, 10:00 AM
No, but he tells them what to do.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Jerry Narron: Now, Rossie, you go up there and just look silly at the plate

Rossie: yes sir.

Jerry Narron: Phillippy, swing at the first pitch all the time (even if it bounces three feet in front of the plate

Phillippy: yes sir

Jerry Narron: Coff, just groove those pitches and let them smack you around.

Coff: yes sir.

Oh, please!

redsmetz
04-22-2007, 10:01 AM
Certainly there are concerns on the team thus far, but there have been surprises. I'd rather have our slump now than later (think last September!). I doubt either will be fired this season, nor do I think they should be.

jmac
04-22-2007, 11:22 AM
I'd rather have our slump now than later (think last September!)

I agree except I dont know if it is a slump or just a bad team offensively.

membengal
04-22-2007, 11:28 AM
Just checking, but isn't the team .500? And, the whole, you-can't-win-the-division-in-April-but-you-can-lose-it-then line, isn't the team basically doing fine for the division and the time of the season? Why would anyone get fired?

What are people's expectations?

I thought the predictions thread showed that the board pretty much thought this was a .500 team (on balance). And they are .500 so far. What is the fireable event?

I see enough here to leave me with optimism. Better than expected starting pitching so far. The hope that it can be better than expected for the long haul. An offense that will be better when Jr. wakes up and EE returns from his coma. A bullpen that will be on occasion decent.

It all adds up to a team that will win roughly as much as it loses, and, if it catches a few breaks, maybe a few more than that. A few injuries and bad breaks? A few less than that.

But, really, ebbs and flows people. It's a long season, and this is not a powerhouse team. So, no, no firings. Ridiculous.

Spring~Fields
04-22-2007, 11:37 AM
Narron doesn't swing the bats or throw the pitches. I'm not his biggest fan but he can't play the game for the team. Now, maybe Tracy Jones could. ;)

He micro manages enough, perhaps he is playing through them vicariously.

Narron reminds me of a couple other managers like Narron that never had a winning record, Boone and Miley.

People defended them to the death , they got fired.

People blamed the players then too, of course they blame them now, seems reasonable, but what isn’t reasonable is that the front office no matter who’s name has been on the door has not improved the team so that a Boone, Miley or Narron could win with the resources that they have available.

People say be patient, people say don’t spend money on established stars, six losing seasons working on seven is not patient? Enough money has not already been spent?

I blame the optimist, not the manager, not the general manager, not the players but the optimist that support a bad product giving ownership a thought that they can profit without offering a quality product. The optimist offer up a lot of boilerplate and puffery, but selectively ignore the losing seasons.

PuffyPig
04-22-2007, 11:43 AM
Considering the team has done much better than most expected, and considering the starting pitcher has been excellent (considered my most to me our weakest point), I'd say we should be celebrating.

As long as we stay around .500, it's hard to suggest we are under achieving.

Always Red
04-22-2007, 12:05 PM
Of course, Jerry Narron will be fired. Someday; but most probably not this year.

Narron is not this team's problem. Eric Milton is not this team's problem.

The Reds, as of this morning, rank 6th in pitching (ranked by ERA) in the NL.

They rank 15th in hitting (BA) and 10th in runs scored. And tied for 2nd last in defense.

Much the same as the collapse of late summer 2006, the offense (lack of it, to be precise) gets most of the blame here, IMO. Relief pitching must also take some of the blame, especially at the back of the bullpen, in tight situations.

Ross, EE, and BP have been disappointing, thus far. I think the worse thing Brandon Phillips can do anymore is hit a home run, because whenever he does, he swings as hard as he can, from his heels for 2-3 games thereafter. Phillips can be a very fine ballplayer, if he would just concentrate more on putting the bat on the ball and hitting line drives; he doesn't have to hit HR's.

Edwin Encarnacion is a favorite of RZ fans, but he has been truly bad this year, thus far at the plate, and now it's starting to show up on the field as well. EE has improved his defense over last year, and has always been solid at the plate. This is kind of a mystery to me. I look for him to snap out of it, but sometimes a young player needs a kick in the rear in order to do that, which Narron applied, to my applause. He's no Brandon Larson, at least I hope he's not. But I've noticed the comparisons starting to come up on some threads this weekend. I always read with a chuckle how badly Narron is screwing Edwin up, when all Jerry keeps doing is putting him down there at 3B. Of course JN wants EE to do well- if Eddie plays well and hits like gangbusters, JN looks good too. :)

Dave Ross is a back-up catcher. Many folks here predicted that this would happen. He had a hot 1st half last year, and that's been it. I really hope Dave Ross can regain the form of early 2006. I was a LaRue fan, but Jason has lost it, too, and would be no improvement over the 2 guys we have now. He's currently hitting below the Mendoza line as well. The Latin Love Machine can't catch everyday (more specifically, he cannot throw), although he can hit the rock. Catching is going to be a big problem all year for this team.

The need for a RH hitting OF with some pop, has been exposed. If EE, BP and Ross would step up at least against LH pitching, a big problem would be solved. Personally, i think Deno would help, but he would have been in the way of Hamilton's play. Had Deno been here, Hammy would not have received the AB's he has to this point, and might still be rusting on the bench.

It remains to be seen, IMO, if Jacoby is good hitting coach or not. It's way too early to make any decision on him. He was brought in specifically to work with Dunn, as he did when Dunn was knocking the ball with power to all fields in the Reds minor league system. Dunn was playing well until he went out one game with back spasms, and he has been a strikeout machine (ala September 2006) since.

Team Clark
04-22-2007, 12:14 PM
I think Tony Perez lasted a little longer than this....

Fire Narron? Wow.

Jacoby?? If this keeps up through JULY "maybe".

George Anderson
04-22-2007, 12:21 PM
Considering the team has done much better than most expected, and considering the starting pitcher has been excellent (considered my most to me our weakest point), I'd say we should be celebrating.

As long as we stay around .500, it's hard to suggest we are under achieving.

Agreed, I am thrilled to see the pitching performing like it is. Years past when the Reds were at .500 or better it was usually because the hitting was outperforming the woeful pitching. This time it is the other way around and anyone who has a clue about the game knows that good pitching wins in the long run. Its the optimist is me that has lotta hope for this team simply because the Central is not very good and I have the gut feel the hitting will come around sooner or later.

VR
04-22-2007, 12:21 PM
I think what we're seeing could be attributed to what has seperated the Cards and Reds for many years. Scouting.

The hitters continue to look fooled, guess and be off balance.....especially against pitchers they haven't faced before.

The Cardinals, on the other hand, continue to have mediocre guys thrive in clutch situations....it was almost uncanny in last year's playoffs.

The Reds often just seem to want to out-talent the opponent, and in this day and age of the supertechnology highway, you need a lot more than superior talent.

Jpup
04-22-2007, 01:00 PM
How could they fire Narron now? That wouldn't go over too well considering the Josh Hamilton situation. I'm not sure who they could get that would be any better anyway. He is a pretty bad on field manager, but I think he's a great dude. I suspect that is what will keep him as Reds manager as long as his contract requires.

Dracodave
04-22-2007, 01:02 PM
Cant blame Narron for going to pitchers he should be able to trust in Todd and Dave. Also can't blame him for running Ross out there everyday, he didnt trade LaRue.

Can't blame him for the lack of righthanded power either, its not his fault Edwin is an slump.

Jpup
04-22-2007, 01:05 PM
Cant blame Narron for going to pitchers he should be able to trust in Todd and Dave. Also can't blame him for running Ross out there everyday, he didnt trade LaRue.

Can't blame him for the lack of righthanded power either, its not his fault Edwin is an slump.


He could quit hitting David Ross in the 8th spot, that would help. He could also quit moving around the lineup on a nightly basis and screwing with Edwin's mind. Hit the guy 4th and leave him alone.

RedEye
04-22-2007, 01:20 PM
Narron doesn't swing the bats or throw the pitches. I'm not his biggest fan but he can't play the game for the team.

Agreed. But he has to be one of the worst situational managers in the majors. There are so many times in a game where I'm wondering what the heck he is doing by pinch hitting Castro or leaving Arroyo in for one extra batter. You can be sure that the best managers (Larussa, Leyland, etc.) wouldn't be caught dead doing that -- and if they were, they'd have a very well thought-out reason for it.

Narron seems to work just by intuition most of the time. That would be fine if his intuitions were usually good, but they aren't. For example, I always imagine him saying something like, "Oh, Milty looks strong out there. I think he can get that Bill Hall guy today" rather than what he should be saying, which is something like "For the love of... get Milty out of there! That's Bill Hall in the on deck circle! Bill Hall hits .750 against left handers with runners on second or third, and .950 against us in that situation."

The one wrinkle in all of this is Josh Hamilton, who may just be the most important thing we have going right now (assuming the team doesn't rip off a ten-game winning streak, I think our W-L record is going to be largely irrelevant pretty soon). The relationship Josh has with Johnny Narron seems to be important to his development, and if Jerry got fired, that would certainly end. Of course, I'm not necessarily of the school of thought that we should always treat Hamilton with kid gloves (if he's gonna relapse, he's gonna relapse, and better that it happen before the franchise has invested too much hope, strategy or money in him, right?) I would, however, like to see some consistency in his treatment for at least this year. Unless things go too badly, I'm assuming that Cast and WK feel the same way. So Narron stays.

Anyway, these are my thoughts...

KronoRed
04-22-2007, 02:35 PM
These guys aren't going anywhere, Krivsky has hitched his wagon to them for the foreseeable future.

Marc D
04-22-2007, 03:24 PM
Untill WK assembles a team talented enough to be a legit contender then keep anyone you want as manager. If that day ever comes I want no part of Narron as the manager.

Tony Cloninger
04-22-2007, 03:36 PM
Hit EE 4th and let him stay there?? Until when? Until he figures out that RF is also a place to hit the ball too and he adjusts according to how pitchers are throwing him? He swings at bad pitches and it's getting worse......he refuses to go the other way (Heck....so does Phillips too, he looks almost as bad)....no way just beacuse EE is young and up and coming does he deserve to bat 4th right now. EE is screwing with his own mind.

I do not like Castro PH either but how about giving Narron more of an option? He only really has Hopper to PH from the right side. Drop a pitcher and bring up another option for Narron to use off the bench.

NO ONE was complaining when about the way the pitchers were being used, especially in the bullpen, when they were throwing 0's up there......now it's back to blaming Narron for every pitching change and disaster that follows.

HokieRed
04-22-2007, 05:56 PM
Why would you start firing people other than the one who made the decisions that have lead to the structure of this team--i.e. Wayne Krivsky. I'm not advocating firing Krivsky, just suggesting people get a little more realistic about this team, which will be, in my opinion, very lucky to be .500 for the year. Belisle's last two starts mean we're back to three solid starters, and that includes Lohse.

redsmetz
04-22-2007, 11:25 PM
Why would you start firing people other than the one who made the decisions that have lead to the structure of this team--i.e. Wayne Krivsky. I'm not advocating firing Krivsky, just suggesting people get a little more realistic about this team, which will be, in my opinion, very lucky to be .500 for the year. Belisle's last two starts mean we're back to three solid starters, and that includes Lohse.

One bad start does not make a pitcher bad - we'll see how he comes out in his next start or more. Overall, the starting staff has been quite good.

fearofpopvol1
04-22-2007, 11:47 PM
I think Narron is fine.

Don't forget about Hamilton's relationship with Narron's brother. I'm sure if they canned Jerry, that could potentially impair Hamilton's development. I'm sure for that reason alone Narron has bought himself some extra time...

HokieRed
04-22-2007, 11:51 PM
Belisle's last two starts: 10 and 1/3 innings, 16 hits, 9 ER.

traderumor
04-23-2007, 12:12 AM
Where ever Chris Chambliss landed, he is certainly thinking "yea, its my fault those guys couldn't hit the last month of the season."

Spring~Fields
04-23-2007, 12:58 AM
I don't see any reason to fire the man since he is playing the cards that the GM and ownership dealt him.

I would like to see Narron try something different and stick with it for awhile. He likes to tinker daily for various reasons that he occasionally states, they don‘t work out, but he tinkers away. Many have said that lineups don't really matter, assuming that to be true why bother mixing and matching everyday as he does. Why not try to give the players consistent set roles even on offense?

Encarcion
Dunn
Conine
Griffey
Hamilton
Phillips
Gonzalez
Ross

Marc D
04-23-2007, 01:28 AM
The manager doesn't play the game for them and is in effect only as good as the players, I agree. However, the manager is ultimately held accountable for the lack of performance by the troops in every walk of life. If the losing continues(multiple seasons, not this year imo), eventually WK will have to part with Narron to save himself. There is no way around it.

I don't agree with this, just stating what I feel the culture of the Reds currently is. I think they are ok with mediocrity as long as the turnstiles are spinning, just like the last regime.

If I were the owner and actually cared about fielding a winning team I'd go Stienbrenner on them and fire a coach on Monday to send a message. I would hate to do it but I really think this entire organization needs a serious mental shakeup. A message needs to be sent that losing is no longer acceptable. Put the heat on Narron and the coaches and see if they can't motivate these guys to do better.

If not and I'm still convinced my manager is the right guy, I start getting rid of anyone, and I mean anyone, who doesn't buy into what my manager is selling. I personally believe a middle of the road group in terms of talent but long on chemistry can outproduce a more talented but dysfunctional team 80% of the time in any proffession. Obviously, the talent gap can't be too severe.

Just my .02 and I am not by nature a person who thinks its better to manage by fear. I am a big believer in a pat on the back but sometimes you have to break them down then build them back up. I just sense too much of a same ol same ol vibe from this organization and feel a draconian act is what's needed to effect some real change. Pick a coach who's vacancy will do the least damage, pay him well for the trauma and send your message.

Team Clark
04-23-2007, 01:57 AM
Where ever Chris Chambliss landed, he is certainly thinking "yea, its my fault those guys couldn't hit the last month of the season."

:laugh: I was thinking the same thing a few days ago. That's just Baseball.

KoryMac5
04-23-2007, 02:04 AM
It is April, and slumps do happen. Unfortunately for the Reds the slump has hit almost the entire team. Krivs is a pretty patient guy and has spoken well of Narron. I doubt he would fire him in midseason. I do think that he will be shopping pretty heavily around the All Star break for some offense. But I do want to see if things can turn around with JR in the lineup. This team is just not the same without him in there. Last month of the season no JR. team went south, last few games no JR. team goes south. There is a connection here.

Jpup
04-23-2007, 03:41 AM
It is April, and slumps do happen. Unfortunately for the Reds the slump has hit almost the entire team. Krivs is a pretty patient guy and has spoken well of Narron. I doubt he would fire him in midseason. I do think that he will be shopping pretty heavily around the All Star break for some offense. But I do want to see if things can turn around with JR in the lineup. This team is just not the same without him in there. Last month of the season no JR. team went south, last few games no JR. team goes south. There is a connection here.

it has nothing to do with Jr. not playing. That's just silly. I'd much rather have Dunn, Freel, and Hamilton out there everyday anyway. I'm not sure the Reds aren't better with Jr. not playing in the outfield. It's time the Reds go out and get some good players to go with the very few they already have.

bucksfan2
04-23-2007, 09:45 AM
it has nothing to do with Jr. not playing. That's just silly. I'd much rather have Dunn, Freel, and Hamilton out there everyday anyway. I'm not sure the Reds aren't better with Jr. not playing in the outfield. It's time the Reds go out and get some good players to go with the very few they already have.

I may be one of the few but I would much rather have Jr. in the lineup instead of Freel. Jr. brings more to the lineup that Freel can in terms of power, respect, game changing ability, etc. This year he has also been hitting better and limiting the strikeouts. It is only a matter of time before his warning track flies fly out of the stadium.

If the reds continue to play bad Narron is on borrowed time. You cant preach fundamentals and let the team play poor defense. You can't preach how you are going to be a hard arse and let half the team walk all over you. He is acting like a boss who tells you something but wont punish you if you don't do the opposite. Not to metion hitting Gonzales 5th the other night.

Will M
04-23-2007, 11:00 AM
Of course, Jerry Narron will be fired. Someday; but most probably not this year.

Narron is not this team's problem. Eric Milton is not this team's problem.

The Reds, as of this morning, rank 6th in pitching (ranked by ERA) in the NL.

They rank 15th in hitting (BA) and 10th in runs scored. And tied for 2nd last in defense.

Much the same as the collapse of late summer 2006, the offense (lack of it, to be precise) gets most of the blame here, IMO. Relief pitching must also take some of the blame, especially at the back of the bullpen, in tight situations.

Ross, EE, and BP have been disappointing, thus far. I think the worse thing Brandon Phillips can do anymore is hit a home run, because whenever he does, he swings as hard as he can, from his heels for 2-3 games thereafter. Phillips can be a very fine ballplayer, if he would just concentrate more on putting the bat on the ball and hitting line drives; he doesn't have to hit HR's.

Edwin Encarnacion is a favorite of RZ fans, but he has been truly bad this year, thus far at the plate, and now it's starting to show up on the field as well. EE has improved his defense over last year, and has always been solid at the plate. This is kind of a mystery to me. I look for him to snap out of it, but sometimes a young player needs a kick in the rear in order to do that, which Narron applied, to my applause. He's no Brandon Larson, at least I hope he's not. But I've noticed the comparisons starting to come up on some threads this weekend. I always read with a chuckle how badly Narron is screwing Edwin up, when all Jerry keeps doing is putting him down there at 3B. Of course JN wants EE to do well- if Eddie plays well and hits like gangbusters, JN looks good too. :)

Dave Ross is a back-up catcher. Many folks here predicted that this would happen. He had a hot 1st half last year, and that's been it. I really hope Dave Ross can regain the form of early 2006. I was a LaRue fan, but Jason has lost it, too, and would be no improvement over the 2 guys we have now. He's currently hitting below the Mendoza line as well. The Latin Love Machine can't catch everyday (more specifically, he cannot throw), although he can hit the rock. Catching is going to be a big problem all year for this team.

The need for a RH hitting OF with some pop, has been exposed. If EE, BP and Ross would step up at least against LH pitching, a big problem would be solved. Personally, i think Deno would help, but he would have been in the way of Hamilton's play. Had Deno been here, Hammy would not have received the AB's he has to this point, and might still be rusting on the bench.

It remains to be seen, IMO, if Jacoby is good hitting coach or not. It's way too early to make any decision on him. He was brought in specifically to work with Dunn, as he did when Dunn was knocking the ball with power to all fields in the Reds minor league system. Dunn was playing well until he went out one game with back spasms, and he has been a strikeout machine (ala September 2006) since.


Good post.

Obviously the Reds offense needs help but EE and Phillips are going to have to hit sometime or the Reds really have no chance.

We could use a righthanded bat who can play RF. Reggie Sanders comes to mind. At worst he would platoon with Griffey. At best you have options ( due to Freel's versatility ) if Dunn, EE or Phillips slump.

We also need a catcher who can hit .250 and play defense.
I thought Ross would be OK but he looks terrible. He is swinging through 88mph fastballs.

REDREAD
04-23-2007, 11:06 AM
Jacoby isn't the problem. I'm not Narron's biggest fan, but he's not the main problem either. Yes, Narron does contribute, like using Castro as a PH when Valentine and Jr are available..

The big problem is the architect of this mess.. Wayne does a good job scouring the castoffs of other teams, but he generally does a poor job in the "big" moves.. free agents and trades (save Arroyo).

Wayne had plenty of money this offseason to improve the club, and failed.

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2007, 01:41 PM
That wouldn't go over too well considering the Josh Hamilton situation.

Ding Ding Ding.

Why upset the apple cart (the admittedly unstable apple cart) on the one good thing that is happening to this team? Because I can promise you that losing Jerry and Johnny Narron as his personal babysitters/support staff/help group won't do good things for a recovering addict jetsetting around the country like Hamilton.

RedEye
04-23-2007, 02:19 PM
Certainly there are concerns on the team thus far, but there have been surprises. I'd rather have our slump now than later (think last September!). I doubt either will be fired this season, nor do I think they should be.

Yeah... it's better to be out of contention early than to be teased by a poser team. :D

Chip R
04-23-2007, 02:34 PM
Ding Ding Ding.

Why upset the apple cart (the admittedly unstable apple cart) on the one good thing that is happening to this team? Because I can promise you that losing Jerry and Johnny Narron as his personal babysitters/support staff/help group won't do good things for a recovering addict jetsetting around the country like Hamilton.


Who says you have to lose Johnny? You think just cause his brother got fired he's going to quit?

T7-niner
04-23-2007, 02:56 PM
Who says you have to lose Johnny? You think just cause his brother got fired he's going to quit?

In a word.....Yes.

Wasn't Johnny slated for a coaching spot with the Beermakers?

George Anderson
04-23-2007, 02:59 PM
In a word.....Yes.

Wasn't Johnny slated for a coaching spot with the Beermakers?

Kinda like when Bob Boone was axed, everyone knew it was a matter of time before Aaron left.

WMR
04-23-2007, 03:04 PM
In a word.....Yes.

Wasn't Johnny slated for a coaching spot with the Beermakers?

Johnny cares about Josh more than that. He wouldn't leave mid-season, no matter what happened to his brother.

As for Narron though, I don't think he *can* be fired this season. Krivsky has been so gung-ho about kissing his ass and telling the whole world how they're so 'in tune' with one another...

next season? Maybe. But if next year's team isn't any better than this year, Krivsky himself might be looking for work.

Cast ain't a patient man.

Chip R
04-23-2007, 03:20 PM
In a word.....Yes.

Wasn't Johnny slated for a coaching spot with the Beermakers?


Minor league gig. Video Coordinator with major league team without brother as manager >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> minor league coaching gig. If anyone actually thinks Jerry is going to want Johnny to fall on the sword because he got fired, isn't giving much credit to Jerry as a person.

redsmetz
04-23-2007, 03:53 PM
Kinda like when Bob Boone was axed, everyone knew it was a matter of time before Aaron left.

Yeah, like when Cal Ripken Sr. got fired and everyone knew Cal Jr. would leave Baltimore!

Oh, wait, no that didn't happen. Never mind.

(It's not a given, particularly given Josh Hamilton's situation)

T7-niner
04-23-2007, 04:20 PM
Minor league gig. Video Coordinator with major league team without brother as manager >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> minor league coaching gig. If anyone actually thinks Jerry is going to want Johnny to fall on the sword because he got fired, isn't giving much credit to Jerry as a person.

I didn't mean to insinuate that Jerry would want Johnny to quit. I'm just saying that it very well could happen.

For the record, I like Jerry Narron......There, I said it.

Chip R
04-23-2007, 04:29 PM
I didn't mean to insinuate that Jerry would want Johnny to quit. I'm just saying that it very well could happen.

For the record, I like Jerry Narron......There, I said it.


I didn't think you did. But in a situation like that, the thinking is that if, in this instance, Jerry were fired, Johnny would quit in protest and Jerry would not discourage him from doing so. In fact, I believe the opposite would happen. I think Jerry would tell Johnny to not quit his job just because he was fired - especially in mid-season. That said, Johnny does have a bit of leverage since he's Josh's keeper. He could tell the Reds that if Jerry goes, he goes and then Josh has nobody to look after him. I doubt he'd do that but it's an option.

Razor Shines
04-23-2007, 05:01 PM
it has nothing to do with Jr. not playing. That's just silly. I'd much rather have Dunn, Freel, and Hamilton out there everyday anyway. I'm not sure the Reds aren't better with Jr. not playing in the outfield. It's time the Reds go out and get some good players to go with the very few they already have.

That's fine if you just want to play for the future and get Hamilton as many ABs as possible. But if the Reds are going to do anything this year, Griffey has to play a lot. Whether you believe it or not he provides protection for the other hitters in the line-up. Go look at Dunn's numbers last year when Jr. is hitting behind him. I posted this in September last year.



Hitting directly in front or behind Jr. his number are:
In 201 ABs his line is .289/.391/.552 a much more All Star like OPS of .943. His walks per AB jumps up to 6.9. So he's getting much better pitches to hit and taking advantage of them.


his stats just hitting directly in front of Jr.
In 116 ABs his line is .336/.416/.578 a red hot OPS of .994. His walk rate takes another small jump to 1 BB every 7.7 ABs. With that OPS I'd say he's seeing some pitches he likes.

boognish
04-23-2007, 05:20 PM
Razor, your post notwithstanding, we need to break up the lefties!

KronoRed
04-23-2007, 05:24 PM
Razor, your post notwithstanding, we need to break up the lefties!

Or get a good right handed bat.

boognish
04-23-2007, 05:29 PM
What is interesting is that even if Ross were producing at Post-ASB levels (152 PA, 18 XBH, 44 K, .203/.325/.484) the offense would suddenly look much better. If we get into mid-May and EE, Phillips, and Ross all still look awful, then it will be time to revisit this discussion and perhaps reach the conclusion to sic the mob on Jacoby and Narron for messing these guys up...

Razor Shines
04-23-2007, 05:29 PM
Razor, your post notwithstanding, we need to break up the lefties!

Well that was last year when Jr. hit 3rd most of the time. I think Dunn is best suited for the 2 hole. And I like Jr. hitting 4th. The problem is we don't really have a right handed bat who is a legit 3rd hitter. Phillips has been hitting well the last few games, and he's even been more patient. It's a small sample size but he's walking at a once per 10 ABs this season, last year it was once per 15 ABs. It's not a great rate but it's better.

Ludwig Reds Fan
04-23-2007, 05:34 PM
Dunn seems to strike out a third of the time. He's also a power hitter who won't beat out many ground balls.

That kind of hitter belongs in the 5 spot, in my opinion. I would think you'd want a good contact hitter in the 2 spot.

Do we have one of those? ;)

Razor Shines
04-23-2007, 05:38 PM
Dunn seems to strike out a third of the time. He's also a power hitter who won't beat out many ground balls.

That kind of hitter belongs in the 5 spot, in my opinion. I would think you'd want a good contact hitter in the 2 spot.

Do we have one of those? ;)

I don't know, I want a hitter who gets on base in the two spot. Not only that but for his career Dunn puts up much better numbers in the two spot. When Dunn hits 5th he gets pitched around and right now he's not being very patient so instead of getting walks he's just swinging at a lot of bad pitches and getting out. If he's going to swing at everything put him second and give him a chance to see a good pitch.

boognish
04-23-2007, 05:39 PM
Well that was last year when Jr. hit 3rd most of the time. I think Dunn is best suited for the 2 hole. And I like Jr. hitting 4th. The problem is we don't really have a right handed bat who is a legit 3rd hitter. Phillips has been hitting well the last few games, and he's even been more patient. It's a small sample size but he's walking at a once per 10 ABs this season, last year it was once per 15 ABs. It's not a great rate but it's better.

Even with the increased patience, I really don't think Phillips flashes consistent enough power to be considered a middle of the order threat between Dunn and Griffey. I would rather bat him in the six spot.

EE's doubles power encouraged many into thinking he would be able to step in and fill that role...so far it hasn't panned out, leaving many to wonder if he wasn't overprojected based on a shiny April RBI total. I'd love to break up the lefties if there were an elite right-handed hitter like Pujols, Cabrera, or Ramirez on the team, but that player is not around at any level of the Reds' system. What infuriates me most about Narron (yes, back to the topic...) is that he seemingly compromises logical lineup construction to make his job easier in the late innings. Then he compounds the problem by mismanagement--read: double-switching Dunn out of the game and using multiple relievers that inning--which negates the "advantage" he built in when he wrote out the lineup card in the first place.

What would be really interesting is taking your comparison of Dunn and Griffey back-to-back and seeing what the phenomenon was for Dunn in front of Aurilia, Kearns, or EE last season. I have seen research on how "protection" in the lineup affects production negligibly, but this could be an intriguing exception.

WMR
04-23-2007, 05:43 PM
Phillips seems to tone down the Willie Mays Hayes impression when he's batting around 6th. In a decent offense, that's where you'd stick him. For US, however... :laugh:

Razor Shines
04-23-2007, 05:50 PM
boognish;1315394]Even with the increased patience, I really don't think Phillips flashes consistent enough power to be considered a middle of the order threat between Dunn and Griffey. I would rather bat him in the six spot.

EE's doubles power encouraged many into thinking he would be able to step in and fill that role...so far it hasn't panned out, leaving many to wonder if he wasn't overprojected based on a shiny April RBI total. I'd love to break up the lefties if there were an elite right-handed hitter like Pujols, Cabrera, or Ramirez on the team, but that player is not around at any level of the Reds' system. What infuriates me most about Narron (yes, back to the topic...) is that he seemingly compromises logical lineup construction to make his job easier in the late innings. Then he compounds the problem by mismanagement--read: double-switching Dunn out of the game and using multiple relievers that inning--which negates the "advantage" he built in when he wrote out the lineup card in the first place.

Well Dunn's spot hasn't ever actually come back up this season when he's double switched him out late in a game. In one game the Reds did lose the lead and if they were going to make any kind of come back his spot would have come up, but the Reds went 1-2-3 in the 9th that game. But I do see what you're saying.



What would be really interesting is taking your comparison of Dunn and Griffey back-to-back and seeing what the phenomenon was for Dunn in front of Aurilia, Kearns, or EE last season. I have seen research on how "protection" in the lineup affects production negligibly, but this could be an intriguing exception.
Well I did post this, it was only as of September 13th of last year though.


Here are Adam Dunn's stats with Jr. not directly in front or behind him. Note: these are not just with Jr. out of the lineup, these stats are also with Jr. in the lineup but not directly in F/B Dunn.

In 305 ABs his line is .213/.338/.500 a decent OPS of .838 but not from your markee power hitter. A really telling stat is that his walks per AB is 4.3. Obviously meaning he's not getting as much to swing at, which is fine as long as he' patient.

boognish
04-23-2007, 06:02 PM
Interesting info. Thanks for digging it out so I didn't have to. :)

Dunn's spot has not come back up after double switches thus far, true, but the overall point is that the defensive impact of LF is basically nil, so why remove the biggest threat in the lineup? It really just doesn't make much sense to me. I remember Castro coming up in multiple late-inning situations last season after coming in as a defensive sub for EE.

Razor Shines
04-23-2007, 06:05 PM
Interesting info. Thanks for digging it out so I didn't have to. :)

Dunn's spot has not come back up after double switches thus far, true, but the overall point is that the defensive impact of LF is basically nil, so why remove the biggest threat in the lineup? It really just doesn't make much sense to me. I remember Castro coming up in multiple late-inning situations last season after coming in as a defensive sub for EE.

Heck you don't have to go back to last season, that happened yesterday.

Redsland
04-23-2007, 06:08 PM
Well Dunn's spot hasn't ever actually come back up this season when he's double switched him out late in a game.
Are you sure? I thought Norris Hopper switched in for him and then struck out to end a game.

boognish
04-23-2007, 06:09 PM
Are you sure? I thought Norris Hopper switched in for him and then struck out to end a game.

I believe that was Thursday, but Hopper took over in the 9 spot.

Razor Shines
04-23-2007, 06:09 PM
Are you sure? I thought Norris Hopper switched in for him and then struck out to end a game.

Yeah but Norris was hitting in the ninth spot that game. Like I said Dunn's spot would have come up that game if they had made any kind of come back.

Redsland
04-23-2007, 06:13 PM
Thanks for the correction.

:beerme:

T7-niner
04-23-2007, 07:28 PM
I didn't think you did. But in a situation like that, the thinking is that if, in this instance, Jerry were fired, Johnny would quit in protest and Jerry would not discourage him from doing so. In fact, I believe the opposite would happen. I think Jerry would tell Johnny to not quit his job just because he was fired - especially in mid-season. That said, Johnny does have a bit of leverage since he's Josh's keeper. He could tell the Reds that if Jerry goes, he goes and then Josh has nobody to look after him. I doubt he'd do that but it's an option.

I agree. I'd say as long as Josh Hamilton is a Red, one of the Narron brothers will here.