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View Full Version : Why Ross Needs To Keep Starting



Natty Redlocks
04-22-2007, 11:08 PM
It must be a coincidence that every time Javy starts a game, the pitcher has an off day. After two great starts caught by Ross, Belisle has had two bad ones -- caught by Valentin. After two not-so-good starts by Lohse -- caught by Valentin-- he's had two great starts caught by Ross. Finally, you'll never guess who caught Harang's two "good" starts, and who caught his two subpar starts. This accounts for all six of Valentin's starts to date. It's definitely a pattern.

It's starting to look like there's a case to be made for David Ross as an outstanding handler of pitchers, whose offense should be considered a bonus, like a Molina (except he can't throw as well or make plays at the plate, ever. But neither can Javy.) Just something to think about before calling for his head -- David Ross may be a big reason why the Reds' starting pitching doesn't suck.

Razor Shines
04-22-2007, 11:14 PM
It must be a coincidence that every time Javy starts a game, the pitcher has an off day. After two great starts caught by Ross, Belisle has had two bad ones -- caught by Valentin. After two not-so-good starts by Lohse -- caught by Valentin-- he's had two great starts caught by Ross. Finally, you'll never guess who caught Harang's two "good" starts, and who caught his two subpar starts. This accounts for all six of Valentin's starts to date. It's definitely a pattern.

It's starting to look like there's a case to be made for David Ross as an outstanding handler of pitchers, whose offense should be considered a bonus, like a Molina (except he can't throw as well or make plays at the plate, ever. But neither can Javy.) Just something to think about before calling for his head -- David Ross may be a big reason why the Reds' starting pitching doesn't suck.

First of all D. Ross is one of the best in the league at throwing out runners. He just can't block balls because he doesn't turn his glove over.

But I agree on everything else. How many times does Javy have to go out to the mound because it seems like the pitcher and him are not on the same page on the signs? But I think we're going to continue to see Javy against RHP

George Anderson
04-22-2007, 11:17 PM
It's starting to look like there's a case to be made for David Ross as an outstanding handler of pitchers, whose offense should be considered a bonus, like a Molina (except he can't throw as well or make plays at the plate, ever. But neither can Javy.) Just something to think about before calling for his head -- David Ross may be a big reason why the Reds' starting pitching doesn't suck.

The starting pitching wasnt very good last year and Ross was the catcher then. I seriously doubt if Ross has turned in a master handler of pitchers over the winter.

TeamBoone
04-22-2007, 11:22 PM
I believe Javy has caught Belisle every time he's pitched. I didn't check, but I'm pretty sure.

Patrick Bateman
04-22-2007, 11:33 PM
Belise pitched a lot better than his line indicated. He gave up runs mostly due to a little bit of luck and soem timely hitting by a tough Phillies line-up. I doubt today's performance has much to do with who was catching.

Razor Shines
04-22-2007, 11:36 PM
I believe Javy has caught Belisle every time he's pitched. I didn't check, but I'm pretty sure.

Ross caught his first two starts.

VR
04-23-2007, 12:50 AM
The starting pitching wasnt very good last year and Ross was the catcher then. I seriously doubt if Ross has turned in a master handler of pitchers over the winter.
It was much better when Ross caught vs. the other two.

Natty Redlocks
04-23-2007, 07:05 AM
I believe Javy has caught Belisle every time he's pitched. I didn't check, but I'm pretty sure.

My whole point is that I did check; Javy has caught 2 of the 4 starts each for Lohse, Belisle, and Harang. And overall there's a huge difference between the starts he's caught and the starts Ross has caught. He may have caught some "decent" starts, but all the really good starts this year have been caught by David Ross. Every one of them.

Ltlabner
04-23-2007, 07:20 AM
I'm a big believer in a catcher being able to help a pitcher via pitch selection, talking him down when the pitcher is nervous, setting up behind the plate, throwing out base runners, etc. I think there is something to be said for the skill level of a catcher in doing that.

However, is Ross a master behind the dish able to squeeze a few extra points of ERA out of a pitcher...I doubt it. I doubt Harrang couldn't figure out his issues and it took the sure handed guidance of David Ross to navigate the troubled waters. Like I said, I think a catcher can be a great help, but it's in difficult to quantify ways that aren't easily translated into actual run savings/better pitching.

And no catcher is such a wizard behind the plate that it off-sets being an offensive black hole. SS, yes. Catcher...no.

Ludwig Reds Fan
04-23-2007, 07:36 AM
Interesting stat and observation, nonetheless.

HumnHilghtFreel
04-29-2007, 05:39 AM
I was just bored and read over Trent's postgame notes and saw this:


Belisle said he didn't realize he had a perfect game going, he just felt like he had a good flow. Both Belisle and Narron gave a lot of credit to Ross, as well.

hebroncougar
04-29-2007, 07:52 AM
Ross seems to do much better at framing pitches, and calling pitches than any other catcher the Reds run out there. At the end of the season, he'll be what he is when he doesn't have a career year. He'll hit between .230 and .250 and have some HR pop (15-20), and be a good receiver.

redsmetz
04-29-2007, 08:26 AM
I think this has been the reason this year and last as to why we carried three catchers. I think the club likes Valentin for his pinch hitting abilities, but not so much as a backstop. I think carrying Moeller was because they believed he's better with pitchers than Javy is. That's just conjecture on my part, but I think that's the case. When the need for outfield help came along, they had to move away from that. I could easily be wrong on this, but if something worthwhile came along, they'd move Valentin in a trade and bring Moeller back up.

I think some have said this, but it's such an intangible, the value of catcher and his receiving and game calling skills. You end up with anecdotal evidence such as this (and it's intriguing), but ball games get won and lost all over the place.

Degenerate39
04-29-2007, 10:49 AM
Ross does seem to handle the pitchers better and his bat is starting to come around. Keep him in :thumbup:

Wheelhouse
04-29-2007, 11:03 AM
Valentin CERA= 5.23
Ross CERA= 3.28

Whoa.

TOBTTReds
04-29-2007, 11:04 AM
Also with comparing last year, Ross wasn't around in spring, and still wasn't THE catcher. He stepped in when he started hitting and LaRue was hurt. Now, he is THE catcher. He's all spring to gel with his teammates and pitching staff. He could be the best part of this team right now that doesn't get a whole lot of credit.

JV is really a very poor catcher. What might drive his pitchers crazy too, is that he thinks about every pitch before he calls it for about 5 seconds. He slows the game to a snails pass so much. All of our starters but Milton, seem to be fast workers. JV takes those four starter out of their rythm, not to mention our IF'ers.

VR
04-29-2007, 11:14 AM
I really hope he has a big day today at the plate. He has killed Maholm in the past.
I'd put him 5th today ahead of Dunn. Give him a shot to see some good pitches.

Ron Madden
04-29-2007, 11:17 AM
I really hope he has a big day today at the plate. He has killed Maholm in the past.
I'd put him 5th today ahead of Dunn. Give him a shot to see some good pitches.

But.. But Catchers hit 8th MIF hit 2nd. ;)

Degenerate39
04-29-2007, 12:06 PM
What's the Reds record with Ross behind the plate?

Matt700wlw
04-29-2007, 12:25 PM
I believe Javy has caught Belisle every time he's pitched. I didn't check, but I'm pretty sure.

Not yesterday, for sure. Belisle's best career start, I would say.

TOBTTReds
04-29-2007, 12:26 PM
Ross is 5-14 in his last 4 games with a HR. Hopefully he is turning the corner at the plate. If he does become mediocre at the plate this year, I think it will be a great turnaround and comeback.

RedFanAlways1966
04-29-2007, 12:52 PM
What's the Reds record with Ross behind the plate?

Starting catcher: Record
David Ross: 7-10
J. Valentin: 4-3

AmarilloRed
04-29-2007, 12:54 PM
I hate to say it-small sample size. It does seem Ross is a better handler of pitchers, and as long as starting pitchers continue to do well with him catching, let him start.

CWRed
04-29-2007, 03:02 PM
Valentin CERA= 5.23
Ross CERA= 3.28

Whoa.

But add Valentin's scrappiness factor and the difference is negligible.;)

Chip R
04-29-2007, 03:07 PM
But add Valentin's scrappiness factor and the difference is negligible.;)


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