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M2
04-23-2007, 12:09 AM
At this moment he's hitting .370 with a .452 OB and a .644 SLG. He's 4 doubles, 5 triples, 2 homers, 10 SB, 21 runs and 16 RBI.

He's on pace for 38 doubles, 48 triples, 19 homers, 95 SB, 200 runs and 152 RBIs. Oh yeah, his defense is off the hook too.

Any chance you get, watch the Mets if for no other reason than to see Reyes. He's on another plane right now.

Razor Shines
04-23-2007, 12:12 AM
At this moment he's hitting .370 with a .452 OB and a .644 SLG. He's 4 doubles, 5 triples, 2 homers, 10 SB, 21 runs and 16 RBI.

He's on pace for 38 doubles, 48 triples, 19 homers, 95 SB, 200 runs and 152 RBIs. Oh yeah, his defense is off the hook too.

Any chance you get, watch the Mets if for no other reason than to see Reyes. He's on another plane right now.

Wow. He's playing so well that he doesn't have to travel on the team plane? Well I guess whatever it takes to keep him happy.

WVPacman
04-23-2007, 12:26 AM
If there was one guy that I would love to see in a reds jersey it would be Jose Reyes.This guy can do it all and completly is underrated!!!

Stormy
04-23-2007, 01:30 AM
At this moment he's hitting .370 with a .452 OB and a .644 SLG. He's 4 doubles, 5 triples, 2 homers, 10 SB, 21 runs and 16 RBI.

He's on pace for 38 doubles, 48 triples, 19 homers, 95 SB, 200 runs and 152 RBIs. Oh yeah, his defense is off the hook too.

Any chance you get, watch the Mets if for no other reason than to see Reyes. He's on another plane right now.

He definitely is playing the game at an entire different level than anyone else in the league at the moment. His impact is impossible to stop at the plate, on the basepaths, in the field etc... and to watch that lightning quick bat lash a ball into the RCF gap, while his legs transform it into a triple, is a beautiful sight to behold.

Best of all, you (M2), christened him as destined to be a unique form of superstar, all the way back when he was an overmatched teenager scraping to try to keep his OBP at .300. And you did so above the objections of some who thought his statistical profile would never allow him to develop the plate discipline to succeed. Great call, on a fantastic ballplayer.

remdog
04-23-2007, 02:26 AM
Hey! Where have you been? Good to see you!

Rem

MrCinatit
04-23-2007, 03:23 AM
Been a fan of Reyes and Wright for a long, long time.

Red Heeler
04-23-2007, 09:21 AM
If there was one guy that I would love to see in a reds jersey it would be Jose Reyes.This guy can do it all and completly is underrated!!!

I agree completely. If I were starting a team from scratch, Reyes would be my #1 pick out of all the players in baseball. Barry Larkin was my favorite player for a long time due to his all-around skills. Reyes' game reminds me of Larkin in his prime except that he is a little better than Lark in nearly every facet of the game.

M2
04-23-2007, 09:23 AM
Stormy, great to hear from you. Where you been?

Redsland
04-23-2007, 09:41 AM
Stormy!

:party:

Puffy
04-23-2007, 09:46 AM
Best of all, you (M2), christened him as destined to be a unique form of superstar, all the way back when he was an overmatched teenager scraping to try to keep his OBP at .300. And you did so above the objections of some who thought his statistical profile would never allow him to develop the plate discipline to succeed. Great call, on a fantastic ballplayer.

Hey, I was right there with him. Its so funny to me how some people give up on players before they have a chance to develop.

I have a feeling that Redszone will be an interesting case study all year long with regard to Hamilton. He is strugg, strugg, struggling right now against lefties and pretty soon people will notice, and we know how Redszone over-reacts to things....

And whats up Stormy!! Good to see you round these parts!

membengal
04-23-2007, 10:28 AM
I thought Hamilton drew three walks this weekend off of lefties? Correct? How is that struggling?

Puffy
04-23-2007, 10:56 AM
I thought Hamilton drew three walks this weekend off of lefties? Correct? How is that struggling?

.091/.231/.091, 0 Hr's, 0 Rbis, an OPS of .322

Would say that might be considered struggling, eh?

membengal
04-23-2007, 10:58 AM
Tiny, tiny sample size, no? How many at-bats is that? Not enough to conclude one way or another on it, in my opinion...

Puffy
04-23-2007, 11:00 AM
Tiny, tiny sample size, no? How many at-bats is that? Not enough to conclude one way or another on it, in my opinion...

And why are you trying to argue?

I never said a word good or bad about Hamilton. I stated that he is struggling against lefties now and if it keeps up people on Redszone will notice and therein lies the case study.

He's never been above A ball before this year, he is going to go thru struggles, thats all i'm saying.

membengal
04-23-2007, 11:05 AM
I don't know that I'm arguing, per se. It's just that he's had so few at-bats against lefties, that I am not ready to slap a "struggling" tag on him versus them just yet. It's one small step from that tag to the the dreaded "he struggles with lefties" and beyond...

Puffy
04-23-2007, 11:12 AM
Dude - this thread is about Reyes.

People gave up on Reyes at 20 years of age for a variety of reasons, said he wasn't going to be worth squat as a major leaguer. Those people were on this board. There were threads about Reyes and how he was a product of the New York hype machine.

My point was/is even if Hamilton struggles all year against lefties, or if he starts to hit them but then begins to struggle against the high fastball, or the long season, whatever - chances are he is going to struggle at points this year. Right now those struggles happen to be against lefties. The point is how long before Redszone eats him up.

That was my point - I am not trying to get into a debate here about Hamilton vs. lefties, sample size, etc.

Only to say that Redszone is schtizo. Thats all.

membengal
04-23-2007, 11:14 AM
Sorry. And sorry to prove your point.

I agree with you, btw, about the eat-their-own bent to this board.

lollipopcurve
04-23-2007, 11:52 AM
In the eyes of Baseball America, Reyes was always a hot prospect, one of the best in baseball. Brandon Phillips rose to that status briefly, but then got rushed by the Indians. Point being, most of these guys at the top of prospect lists based on scout's judgments -- by the time they're playing in the minors, for sure -- have unmistakable talent. They stand out. Organizations risk being embarrassed if they give up on them, while message board amateurs who are proven wrong just move on to other targets, rarely acknowledging they know less than they thought.

M2
04-23-2007, 12:01 PM
Just for disclosure's sake, back when I was plugging for the Reds to snag Reyes I wasn't thinking Reyes would develop into what he is at the moment. Honestly, no one could have seen that coming. This guy could scrub Owen Wilson from the record books. He could single-handedly reignite the running game across the league. He's like Tim Raines with more power and elite SS defense. He's superhuman. Ought to wear a cape on the field.

I thought Reyes could be at least a Rafael Furcal type of player, possibly a bit better. Furcal's got plenty of game. Now Reyes is Scourge of the Western World.

westofyou
04-23-2007, 12:21 PM
This guy could scrub Owen Wilson from the record books.

Now THAT would be something.

M2
04-23-2007, 12:41 PM
In the eyes of Baseball America, Reyes was always a hot prospect, one of the best in baseball. Brandon Phillips rose to that status briefly, but then got rushed by the Indians. Point being, most of these guys at the top of prospect lists based on scout's judgments -- by the time they're playing in the minors, for sure -- have unmistakable talent. They stand out. Organizations risk being embarrassed if they give up on them, while message board amateurs who are proven wrong just move on to other targets, rarely acknowledging they know less than they thought.

Amnesia works both ways. Most prospects fall well short of expectations. What happened to Sean Burroughs, Drew Henson, Wilson Betemit, Ryan Anderson, Ruben Mateo? Those guys were supposed to be superstars, not just good. The scouts rarely acknowledge they know less than they thought, they just glom onto the next new face.

What fascinates me about Reyes is he's not only made it, but he's seemingly going reach his formidably high ceiling. Heck, he's raised his ceiling to almost preposterous heights.

What causes a guy like Reyes to make it when a guy like Chris Nelson -- who had all the tools, a great attitude and a head for the game -- hits a wall in A ball? No amnesia here. I suspect if you could determine the answer to that, many of the vagaries of scouting would become clearer.

Joseph
04-23-2007, 12:45 PM
Back to the Jose Reyes talk.....

If not for Carl Lindner stepping in and paying Larkin that three year deal, would he [Reyes] no be a Red right now? Wasn't he one of the players we were getting from the Mets for Larkin in other words?

Puffy
04-23-2007, 12:48 PM
Back to the Jose Reyes talk.....

If not for Carl Lindner stepping in and paying Larkin that three year deal, would he [Reyes] no be a Red right now? Wasn't he one of the players we were getting from the Mets for Larkin in other words?

No, he wasn't one of the players. The big package in that deal was Escobar.

M2
04-23-2007, 12:49 PM
Back to the Jose Reyes talk.....

If not for Carl Lindner stepping in and paying Larkin that three year deal, would he [Reyes] no be a Red right now? Wasn't he one of the players we were getting from the Mets for Larkin in other words?

No, that was Alex Escobar. Heads up, IIRC. Reyes had only just signed out of the Dominican in August, 1999. He'd barely started playing rookie ball at the time of that deal.

I don't think Reyes was ever put into a near deal. Though there was a window when Jim Duquette was making the calls for the Mets and Reyes was struggling that a team might have been able to pry him loose.

Joseph
04-23-2007, 12:56 PM
My mistake, it has been a day or two since that happened, in my defense. :)

lollipopcurve
04-23-2007, 02:06 PM
Amnesia works both ways. Most prospects fall well short of expectations. What happened to Sean Burroughs, Drew Henson, Wilson Betemit, Ryan Anderson, Ruben Mateo? Those guys were supposed to be superstars, not just good. The scouts rarely acknowledge they know less than they thought, they just glom onto the next new face.

What fascinates me about Reyes is he's not only made it, but he's seemingly going reach his formidably high ceiling. Heck, he's raised his ceiling to almost preposterous heights.

What causes a guy like Reyes to make it when a guy like Chris Nelson -- who had all the tools, a great attitude and a head for the game -- hits a wall in A ball? No amnesia here. I suspect if you could determine the answer to that, many of the vagaries of scouting would become clearer.

Certainly true that many miss, and whether it be an injury or just a mysterious inability to develop, scouts will surely look to place the blame elsewhere than on themselves.

My point is this -- out of many thousands of aspiring amateur baseball players, there is good reason for the guys at the very top to be there.

Reyes has clearly become best-case scenario for the Mets, probably better than anyone imagined he'd be at this stage of his career. And I think you're right to suggest no one would have batted an eye if he'd drifted into a career like Cristian Guzman's or Julio Lugo's. Happens all the time. But given the sheer domination of his play, it is not at all surprising that he was square in the center of prospect radars for most of his time in the minors. That's also why one can't be completely shocked by what Hamilton has done. You can see these guys coming, even if they don't all get there. Players like Pujols, who came into pro ball looking like a nobody, are a real anomaly (lending some credence to suspicions about steroid use, I'd say).

WMR
04-23-2007, 02:16 PM
I distinctly remember M2 pimping Reyes big time back when he had prolly more doubters than supporters.

TeamSelig
04-23-2007, 02:23 PM
I don't remember anyone ever doubting Reyes. He has always been a top prospect at least I thought so.

Redszone doubts EVERY player, so I'm not sure how that can be used as an example.

WMR
04-23-2007, 02:24 PM
I remember several folks saying he'd never OBP over 300.

Eric_Davis
04-23-2007, 02:29 PM
Mets are also in a class by themselves when it comes to enducing and turning the double-play ball.

NJReds
04-23-2007, 02:39 PM
I remember several folks saying he'd never OBP over 300.

He was also injury prone -- particularly his hamstrings -- and there was some who thought he'd never stay healthy. In fact, I remember when the coaching staff was working with him to change his running style so that he wouldn't pull his hamstrings.

StillFunkyB
04-23-2007, 03:14 PM
If there was one guy that I would love to see in a reds jersey it would be Jose Reyes.This guy can do it all and completly is underrated!!!

I want him to be a Red so WE can chant "Joseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, Jose, Jose, Jose...." at the games!

David Wright is my favoritistist non Red.

M2
04-23-2007, 05:28 PM
My point is this -- out of many thousands of aspiring amateur baseball players, there is good reason for the guys at the very top to be there.

Well, I suppose if you constantly bet on every horse in the race you can claim to right even if your wallet's bleeding.

Reyes burst onto the scene in 2001. Shortstops on the BA top 100 heading into that season were Antonio Perez, Alfonso Soriano, Wilson Betemit, Jimmy Rollins, Felipe Lopez, D'Angelo Jiminez, Alex Cintron, Luis Montanez, David Espinosa, Miguel Cabrera, Juan Uriba and Ramon Santiago. That list is mad with Reds flavor. No Reyes, who had debuted in the NY-Penn League the previous season. Even after he debuted on the top 100 he was still ranked behind Betemit, Angel Berroa (as bad a player as has ever played the game) and Brandon Phillips. It wasn't until he'd caused widespread panic in AA that he cracked the top 10. So the scouts were hardly early on him.

Guys at the very top of the list tend to get there by playing well in full season ball. Yet why did Reyes make it and Betemit, who had a better pedigree, didn't? Maybe the Mets just know what they're doing. That would explain why David Wright is an All-Star and Andy Marte's struggling to break into the majors. Though the classic SS why for the scouts would be why Alex Rodriguez and not Alex Gonzalez (not the one who now plays for the Reds)? Those two guys were top 10 prospects in '94 and '95 with Gonzalez actually ranking ahead of A-Rod in '94.

Cooper
04-23-2007, 05:59 PM
3 of those guys listed had age problems --so that has something to do with folks being a little off.

You have to wonder if it was there even more than we know (ages being off). Was a A-Gon a foreigner? Was/is his age a problem?

Btw, i remember Bill James touting the heck out of Junior Felix and then the next year taking it all back because his age was off by 2 years. I go back and read all of James old stuff now and then. It still is interesting 15 years later.

TeamSelig
04-23-2007, 06:02 PM
I also remember several posters here hating on Alphonso Soriano and how JimBo was dumb for trading Brad Wilkerson for him.

Raisor
04-24-2007, 05:59 PM
I just like Reyes' music when he comes up to bat.

It's like a party!

TC81190
04-24-2007, 07:43 PM
Well, I suppose if you constantly bet on every horse in the race you can claim to right even if your wallet's bleeding.

Reyes burst onto the scene in 2001. Shortstops on the BA top 100 heading into that season were Antonio Perez, Alfonso Soriano, Wilson Betemit, Jimmy Rollins, Felipe Lopez, D'Angelo Jiminez, Alex Cintron, Luis Montanez, David Espinosa, Miguel Cabrera, Juan Uriba and Ramon Santiago. That list is mad with Reds flavor. No Reyes, who had debuted in the NY-Penn League the previous season. Even after he debuted on the top 100 he was still ranked behind Betemit, Angel Berroa (as bad a player as has ever played the game) and Brandon Phillips. It wasn't until he'd caused widespread panic in AA that he cracked the top 10. So the scouts were hardly early on him.

Guys at the very top of the list tend to get there by playing well in full season ball. Yet why did Reyes make it and Betemit, who had a better pedigree, didn't? Maybe the Mets just know what they're doing. That would explain why David Wright is an All-Star and Andy Marte's struggling to break into the majors. Though the classic SS why for the scouts would be why Alex Rodriguez and not Alex Gonzalez (not the one who now plays for the Reds)? Those two guys were top 10 prospects in '94 and '95 with Gonzalez actually ranking ahead of A-Rod in '94.

Back then, I was too young and naive to know what a prospect was, so that list fascinates me.