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Wheelhouse
04-24-2007, 12:39 AM
Have you ever thought to explore the option of putting out more consistent lineups than you do? It might sting the ego a little bit to acknowledge that winning a baseball game is not a product of your ingenious match-ups, but a product of players getting used to, and mastering their roles. If you want an improvement in situationalhitting, might not your players benefit from being exposed to certain situations more frequently? For instance, hitting #2 is a difficult task. Contact hitting, hit and run, and advancing runners takes a little time to master. Have one guy hit there for a couple weeks. Why won't you let one of your (*&^* players be in that slot long enough to learn it? To feel it, to develop an instinct for it, for his talent to come out? My solution to the Reds offensive woes: less genius, more consistency. For one who preaches "the little things" Jerry, learn this big thing: baseball is an arithmetic, not a calculus.

WVRedsFan
04-24-2007, 02:24 AM
Have you ever thought to explore the option of putting out more consistent lineups than you do? It might sting the ego a little bit to acknowledge that winning a baseball game is not a product of your ingenious match-ups, but a product of players getting used to, and mastering their roles. If you want an improvement in situationalhitting, might not your players benefit from being exposed to certain situations more frequently? For instance, hitting #2 is a difficult task. Contact hitting, hit and run, and advancing runners takes a little time to master. Have one guy hit there for a couple weeks. Why won't you let one of your (*&^* players be in that slot long enough to learn it? To feel it, to develop an instinct for it, for his talent to come out? My solution to the Reds offensive woes: less genius, more consistency. For one who preaches "the little things" Jerry, learn this big thing: baseball is an arithmetic, not a calculus.

Waste of energy and waste of breath. Jerry Narron is Jerry Narron. Jerry will continue to bat low-OBP Brandon Phillips No 2. He'll continue to break up righties (if we have any left) with lefties, and he'll continue to not have a clue on when to pull a pitcher or who to replace said pitcher with. He'll continue to have faith in David Ross and Juan Castro. He'll mystify us with his boneheaded moves and most of Reds nation will love him because , "it could be much worse," "He doesn't have anything to work with," or "Nobody expected us to be this good," as we have another below-.500 year. He's the one true love of Wayne Krivsky who knows how to manage the right way.

May god have mercy on us all.

Matt700wlw
04-24-2007, 02:29 AM
He's not the worst manager in the world, but the Reds overall can do a lot better.


His record indicates it....and so does the continuing lack of fundamentals and "little things" that are constantly preached.

He makes a lot of head-scratching decisions....but not as many as the people who abolutely have a flat out hate for him will tell you....they'll blame EVERYTHING they can on him...no matter how far fetched, or out of his control.

WVRedsFan
04-24-2007, 02:41 AM
He's not the worst manager in the world, but the Reds overall can do a lot better.


His record indicates it....and so does the continuing lack of fundamentals and "little things" that are constantly preached.

He makes a lot of head-scratching decisions....but not as many as the people who abolutely have a flat out hate for him will tell you....they'll blame EVERYTHING they can on him...no matter how far fetched, or out of his control.

Matt:

Which leads us to the question...if we are so committed to winning, as our owner says, why do we have a guy who does not practice what he preaches and leaves you scratching your head stay in charge?

No hate for the man. My brother, who knows Jerry, says he's a fine man. I've been arond long enough to know that even guys I really like sometimes cannot be successful in certain areas. Take that for what it's worth.

I know one thing if I know nothing else. i can spot a winner very easily. I can spot a loser just as easily, though it might take time. Our manager is not a winner by any stretch of that statement. The fact that I can recognize that does not make me any more intelligent nor better than anyone else.

I want to win games and compete for playoff spots. I thought that's what the ownership wanted. The current situation, no matter how you spin it, will not provide that in the near term. When Castilini started talking with Sweet Lou, I thought there was hope . When Krivsky extended Narron after last May I knew it was going to be false hope. Winners are winners and losers are losers. I can tell the difference.

Moosie52
04-24-2007, 07:43 AM
Once the bats start blazing, this team will be okay. It's just a slump, people.

Ltlabner
04-24-2007, 07:51 AM
Matt:

Which leads us to the question...if we are so committed to winning, as our owner says, why do we have a guy who does not practice what he preaches and leaves you scratching your head stay in charge?

I want to win games and compete for playoff spots. I thought that's what the ownership wanted. When Castilini started talking with Sweet Lou, I thought there was hope . When Krivsky extended Narron after last May I knew it was going to be false hope. .

Why is it that because they make moves you don't agree with the only possible conclusion is that they are complete liars and idiots who don't really want to win or can't figure out how to do so?

Is that the only feasable reason in the universe of reasons as to why they make the moves they do? It's either do it WVRedsfan's way or they don't really want to win?

Highlifeman21
04-24-2007, 08:26 AM
He's not the worst manager in the world, but the Reds overall can do a lot better.


His record indicates it....and so does the continuing lack of fundamentals and "little things" that are constantly preached.

He makes a lot of head-scratching decisions....but not as many as the people who abolutely have a flat out hate for him will tell you....they'll blame EVERYTHING they can on him...no matter how far fetched, or out of his control.

He's certainly far from the best.

This team continues to win in spite of Jerry Narron.

I don't blame Narron for the performance of individual players, but I do blame him for putting said players in situations destined for failure.

Example 1: Stop giving Eric Milton the ball.
This is not a winning proposition. By continuing to leave Milton in the starting rotation, rather than auditioning anyone in the bullpen (Santos or Saarloos), or giving someone in AAA a chance, Narron continues to baffle.

Example 2: Taking players out of their comfortable roles
Edwin Encarnacion shouldn't be asked to bunt if he's the clean up hitter. It's not that he can't bunt, or won't bunt, it's that he shouldn't be asked to bunt. Why take the bat out of your clean up hitter and make him uncomfortable with the task at hand?

Brandon Phillips is not an OBP guy. Sure, he has speed, but you need to get on base to utilize that speed. Unfortunately, we have 3 guys that are either 7th or 8th spot guys (Gonzalez, Ross, Phillips), so that means the best Phillips should ever bat in the lineup is 6th. Gonzalez 7th, Ross 8th. Get out a Sharpie, and write it on your lineup cards, Jerry. Batting those 3 anywhere but 6, 7 and 8 is taking them out of their comfortable roles. Stop doing it.

Example 3: Lineup construction not offering players protection
If you want to maximize production, offer your bigger/better hitters (Hamilton, Dunn, Griffey, Encarnacion) some protection. Unfortunately, whomever gets slated for the 5 spot will be protected by Brandon Phillips in the 6 hole. That's zero protection. We also lack a legitimate lead off guy, so while we should be strong in the 2, 3, 4, and 5 spots, we are seemingly weak in the 1, 6, 7, and 8 spots. I don't care how ya do it Jerry, but Hamilton, Dunn, Griffey and Encarnacion should be in those 2 through 5 spots. Anything else is criminal.

Example 4: Let's not see Harang and Arroyo combine for 450+ IP in 2007.
I know you don't have a lot of faith in the bullpen, and most of us don't either, but rather than checking AARP cards when you summon one of the ageless wonders, how about you put our bullpeners (is that even a word?!) in a situation to succeed? Coffey's been getting knocked around lately you say? How about we see more of Santos or Saarloos? Not happy with Stanton or Cormier? Give the ball to Coutlangus. I'm sure you have an advanced scouting department, and hopefully some research materials at your finger tips. Start playing match ups.

Example 5: What to do with Ryan Freel?
It's simple. Platoon him with Griffey in RF to maximize both of their respective healths. RHB and LHB. Almost makes too much sense. They both need days off, and aren't everyday players. I wish they both were, but we need to accept the reality they aren't, and use them to the best of their collective and respective abilities. Josh Hamilton is our best defensive OF on the 25 man right now, so let him roam CF.

Ultimately, the players are accountable for executing, but you need to put them in the best situations possible to yield the best/most desireable result.

TOBTTReds
04-24-2007, 10:15 AM
Alexi Casilla and Nick Punto were 1,2 in the Twins lineup this weekend. That's all that needs to be said. It could be worse. The AL MVP is batting 5th in their lineup. They waste the first two spots.

RichRed
04-24-2007, 02:39 PM
Alexi Casilla and Nick Punto were 1,2 in the Twins lineup this weekend. That's all that needs to be said. It could be worse. The AL MVP is batting 5th in their lineup. They waste the first two spots.

It's stuff like this - and Joe Torre playing Tony Womack in CF for 22 games in 2005 - and Jim Leyland batting Neifi Perez leadoff - and every move Grady Little ever made - that all makes me wonder if there are any managers who really know what they're doing.

Narron drives me insane - but who's better?

flyer85
04-24-2007, 02:40 PM
It's just a slump, people.or maybe a lack of offensive ability.

pedro
04-24-2007, 02:43 PM
I'm generally not a Narron basher but his constant shuffling of the lineup is maddening. I really think it is counter productive too. I think players do better when there is a level of consistency to the lineup.

RichRed
04-24-2007, 02:45 PM
I'm generally not a Narron basher but his constant shuffling of the lineup is maddening. I really think it is counter productive too. I think players do better when there is a level of consistency to the lineup.

Absolutely.

Spring~Fields
04-24-2007, 04:13 PM
I agree with Wheelhouse, WVRedsFan, and Highlifeman21 and their themes.

I don’t think that Narron can leave it alone (psychologically) even when he does find a lineup that performs and produces well for the team. I have seen him time and again stumble upon a lineup that goes out and hits and scores well, even season highs, then he changes the mix.

Never know where Dunn, Phillips, or Encarcion might be hitting one day to the next, anyone sure that the inconsistency by Narron does not effect Dunn, Phillips or Encarcion?

Also that one old guy, Conine, seems to have something left in the tank when it comes to hitting. He showed some life and then he disappeared, why?

Why can right hander’s hit righties, but lefthanders can’t hit lefties if given enough exposure to them in Narron’s theory?

What happens if Dunn and Encarcion are given consistent protection within a consistent lineup, does some of their problems lessen?

Odd the more inconsistent the lineup over time, the more inconsistent some of the hitters seem to become. No, of course, I cannot support or prove that conclusion. Yet I don’t think that Narron can support that his chronic mixing and matching is enhancing offensive performance or production either by the results during his managing tenure.

They don’t have a true lead off hitter, batters need protection, lefties need separated?

Why not the following?
Encarcion
Dunn
Conine
Griffey
Hamilton
Phillips
Ross
Gonzalez
Pitcher

Swim or drown with them until Krivsky can find upgrades.

Leaves Narron Freel, Hatteberg and Javy to rotate, pinch hit, pinch run, give guys a needed day off. Of course Narron will have to do that everyday, unfortunately, and defeating the chance to see if it did make a difference in individual and team performances.

I have seen Dunn hit quite well after having a day off, no not a day off to send a message or to punish, just a day off. Maybe some folks just need to get away from the task or office for awhile and then they are ready to go again.

Matt700wlw
04-24-2007, 04:26 PM
Matt:

Which leads us to the question...if we are so committed to winning, as our owner says, why do we have a guy who does not practice what he preaches and leaves you scratching your head stay in charge?

No hate for the man. My brother, who knows Jerry, says he's a fine man. I've been arond long enough to know that even guys I really like sometimes cannot be successful in certain areas. Take that for what it's worth.

I know one thing if I know nothing else. i can spot a winner very easily. I can spot a loser just as easily, though it might take time. Our manager is not a winner by any stretch of that statement. The fact that I can recognize that does not make me any more intelligent nor better than anyone else.

I want to win games and compete for playoff spots. I thought that's what the ownership wanted. The current situation, no matter how you spin it, will not provide that in the near term. When Castilini started talking with Sweet Lou, I thought there was hope . When Krivsky extended Narron after last May I knew it was going to be false hope. Winners are winners and losers are losers. I can tell the difference.

Having another manager, with a better track record, and a bit more fire would be fine with me. More of a "my way or the highway" type of attitude may be what this team needs.

I'm tired of seeing the same crap not being improved year in and year out, yet hearing how much better they have to improve it.

Well.....hello?

Matt700wlw
04-24-2007, 04:31 PM
Once the bats start blazing, this team will be okay. It's just a slump, people.

In the last 47 games, this TEAM has hit .229, and scored 3.6 runs a game...that's since September 1st. That all can't be put on Jerry, Wayne signs the players.....however, I don't know if a more consistant lineup would help it, giving the guys a role to work in.


That's one hell of a slump.

Spring~Fields
04-24-2007, 04:34 PM
He's not the worst manager in the world, but the Reds overall can do a lot better.


His record indicates it....and so does the continuing lack of fundamentals and "little things" that are constantly preached.

He makes a lot of head-scratching decisions....but not as many as the people who abolutely have a flat out hate for him will tell you....they'll blame EVERYTHING they can on him...no matter how far fetched, or out of his control.

The problem I have with Narron is reading or hearing comments from him about fundamentals, playing the game the right way, the little things etc. over and over again. Then I wait and look to see if his words hold water by the end results, and see that they donít. He seems to be able to speak baseball, define the problems, but he does not seem to be able to solve them. I tune out his words anymore. Maybe his players do too.

jimbo
04-24-2007, 04:49 PM
The problem I have with Narron is reading or hearing comments from him about fundamentals, playing the game the right way, the little things etc. over and over again. Then I wait and look to see if his words hold water by the end results, and see that they donít. He seems to be able to speak baseball, define the problems, but he does not seem to be able to solve them. I tune out his words anymore. Maybe his players do too.

I don't have a problem with hearing Narron preaching fundamentals. In the end, the players have to perform the fundamentals and if they don't have the skill sets, brains, or desire then no amount of managing or coaching will change that. Narron can only do so much, he can't go out and make the plays for them.

Spring~Fields
04-24-2007, 05:00 PM
I don't have a problem with hearing Narron preaching fundamentals. In the end, the players have to perform the fundamentals and if they don't have the skill sets, brains, or desire then no amount of managing or coaching will change that. Narron can only do so much, he can't go out and make the plays for them.

That leads me to my next problem with Narron and his staff, he is the one that evaluates the talent and then he seems to come up with ones that "don't have the skill sets, brains, or desire" which you rightly indicate, "then no amount of managing or coaching will change that."

Ltlabner
04-24-2007, 05:09 PM
The problem I have with Narron is reading or hearing comments from him about fundamentals, playing the game the right way, the little things etc. over and over again. Then I wait and look to see if his words hold water by the end results, and see that they donít. He seems to be able to speak baseball, define the problems, but he does not seem to be able to solve them. I tune out his words anymore. Maybe his players do too.

Very interesting point. I've generally been a Jerry supporter who started to sour towards the end of last year.

But there has been a never ending focus on "playing the right way" and hustle, etc, etc. Jerry was estatic when Everyday Eddie showed up because the bullpen could be given roles, yet he shuffles the line up daily and doesn't give them roles.

Maybe the seemingly empty words about playing the right way and the constant line up shenannagans have translated into guys tuning him out and just doing their own thing.

PuffyPig
04-24-2007, 05:15 PM
I gotta say, I don't thimk narron shuffles the lineup as much as most think.

He clearly has a different lineup vs. LH and RH pitching, as he should.

He clearly will change the lineup when different players are in due to injuries and rest, as he should.

And he clearly has made some changes due to some players being ice cold, as he should.

But once the players who will play that night are set, his lineup generally hasn't been a mystery.

M2
04-24-2007, 05:40 PM
Have you ever thought to explore the option of putting out more consistent lineups than you do? It might sting the ego a little bit to acknowledge that winning a baseball game is not a product of your ingenious match-ups, but a product of players getting used to, and mastering their roles. If you want an improvement in situationalhitting, might not your players benefit from being exposed to certain situations more frequently? For instance, hitting #2 is a difficult task. Contact hitting, hit and run, and advancing runners takes a little time to master. Have one guy hit there for a couple weeks. Why won't you let one of your (*&^* players be in that slot long enough to learn it? To feel it, to develop an instinct for it, for his talent to come out? My solution to the Reds offensive woes: less genius, more consistency. For one who preaches "the little things" Jerry, learn this big thing: baseball is an arithmetic, not a calculus.

I'm with you on the more consistent lineup thing, but the Reds' best #2 hitter, and he's so far ahead of any other option the team might employ there it's not even close, isn't a contact-hitting, hit-and-run, advance-the-runner type. He's a pitch-taking, big-swinging monster. Fortunately he doesn't need any time to adapt to the position, he's ready-made for it. Just put him at #2 and worry about the rest of the lineup.

Where Narron gets into trouble is everytime he puts the guy in the #2 slot and watches the guy produce he then starts moving the fellow around the lineup in a fit of whimsy.

RichRed
04-24-2007, 05:48 PM
I gotta say, I don't thimk narron shuffles the lineup as much as most think.


According to baseball-reference.com, 140 different batting orders in '06 and 13 in 19 games so far in '07.

Rest of the NL Central in '06, for comparison:

Cubs: 133 total batting orders
Cards: 131
Pirates: 121
Astros: 111
Brewers: 106

jimbo
04-24-2007, 06:01 PM
As far as this season goes, I think the Josh Hamilton factor has played a big role in the high number of different lineups. With him warranting a start spot, you have several guys who should be starting but not enough open spots in the lineup. I like the lineup he is putting out tonight, but at the same time I don't want to see Freel sitting the bench on a regular basis. This type of problem, even though it may be a good problem, is naturally going to lead to a lot of different lineups.

Sea Ray
04-24-2007, 06:06 PM
I gotta say, I don't thimk narron shuffles the lineup as much as most think.

He clearly has a different lineup vs. LH and RH pitching, as he should.

He clearly will change the lineup when different players are in due to injuries and rest, as he should.

And he clearly has made some changes due to some players being ice cold, as he should.

But once the players who will play that night are set, his lineup generally hasn't been a mystery.

Narron deserves very little of the blame for this team's anemic offense. He can only do so much with what he's given. Sure Phillips does not have a high OBP but there are few options. With the way EE, Dunn, Phillips and Ross are hitting and Griffey on the bench, a manager can only do so much.

I like the fact that he breaks up LH/RH hitters so a lefty specialist can't shut them down late in the game. This concept would look better if EE started to hit.

I like the fact that he realizes Hamilton has to be more than a platoon player.

I don't blame him for not sitting Milton or Griffey or Dunn. Guys with that kind of salary are very difficult to bench. He'd need support from Krivsky and ownership to take such a step.

RichRed
04-24-2007, 06:07 PM
The lineup tonight's not bad but I wish he'd quit trying to force square peg Phillips into the round hole that is the #2 spot.

WVRedsFan
04-24-2007, 07:28 PM
Why is it that because they make moves you don't agree with the only possible conclusion is that they are complete liars and idiots who don't really want to win or can't figure out how to do so?

Is that the only feasable reason in the universe of reasons as to why they make the moves they do? It's either do it WVRedsfan's way or they don't really want to win?

Gosh...

What brought on that tirade? I didn't know the universal love for Jerry Narron ran so deep, but whatever.

I will contend this and let it go since some of us have to get personal and cannot discuss issues without being rude...

Take this team and put them in the hands of a top-flite manager and they would be 12-8 right now. That's my contention and if you disagree, fine.

Chip R
04-24-2007, 07:43 PM
Maybe the seemingly empty words about playing the right way and the constant line up shenannagans have translated into guys tuning him out and just doing their own thing.


I really don't think that's the case. I am definitely not a Narron fan but I think his problem is that he is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. He preaches the fundamentals but the guys he has playing for him aren't the best equipped for that. Fans bame the Reds and Narron for players not being able to bunt or when they make an error or a misplay but most of these players didn't come up in the Reds organization. Dunn is home grown but he's a big power hitter who is there to hit and not to lay down bunts and play hit and run. Encarnacion came over from Texas but has spent enough time in the Reds organization. Everyone else from Freel to Hatteberg to Jr. to Hamilton came from different organizations. That's not to say that the Reds teach their minor leaguers to Play The Game The Right Way but it's ridiculous to blame them for something they had no power over. As for Narron, he can preach fundamentals till he's blue in the face but he can only teach them so much. And mistakes are going to happen. Narron's problem is that he has a lot of players in the lineup who don't make a lot of contact. Not the best bunch to play small ball with. But Narron keeps trying to manufacture runs. Narron's like the football coach who has a great QB and outstanding WRs but just runs the ball all the time and then wonders why they aren't winning. I don't think he's not being truthful when he says he wants the Reds to excute better. But you can only do so much with what you've got.

Ltlabner
04-24-2007, 10:03 PM
Gosh...

What brought on that tirade? I didn't know the universal love for Jerry Narron ran so deep, but whatever.

I will contend this and let it go since some of us have to get personal and cannot discuss issues without being rude...

Take this team and put them in the hands of a top-flite manager and they would be 12-8 right now. That's my contention and if you disagree, fine.

Nice try. I've shared several times that I've soured on Jerry and don't think he's the right guy for us. So you can't brush this off as "Narron-love".

Not sure what is rude about asking why the only two options in your mind is "WVRed's way" and "they don't really want to win". Because that's the construct you've built in post after post. Because you feal they've made mistakes (and they most certinally have made plenty) then the only obvious conclusion is they don't really want to win? I really don't get that.

There's plenty of times when a management team makes the right choice but it doesn't work out. Or they make the wrong choice and, to nobodys suprise, it doesn't work out. Or they think a player will provide XYZ tallents and the player get's injured. Or the player finally hits the performance wall so what the management team thought they were getting doesn't happen. Or they want to trade for player A but the deal falls through and options B,C and D are gone so they have to settle for option E. Those are all reasonable explinations for why a management team doesn't perform to the best of their abilities - none of which include "they don't really want to win".

I guess if you don't want to share your rationale then you can write my orginal post off as rude and duck the question. But I think it's fair game since you've made your fealings so clear in many different posts.

Ltlabner
04-24-2007, 10:06 PM
Narron's problem is that he has a lot of players in the lineup who don't make a lot of contact. Not the best bunch to play small ball with. But Narron keeps trying to manufacture runs. .

Very good point. :thumbup:

jojo
04-24-2007, 10:16 PM
I think Narron is actually underrated by a great many Reds fans.

WVRedsFan
04-25-2007, 12:07 AM
Nice try. I've shared several times that I've soured on Jerry and don't think he's the right guy for us. So you can't brush this off as "Narron-love".

Not sure what is rude about asking why the only two options in your mind is "WVRed's way" and "they don't really want to win". Because that's the construct you've built in post after post. Because you feal they've made mistakes (and they most certinally have made plenty) then the only obvious conclusion is they don't really want to win? I really don't get that.

There's plenty of times when a management team makes the right choice but it doesn't work out. Or they make the wrong choice and, to nobodys suprise, it doesn't work out. Or they think a player will provide XYZ tallents and the player get's injured. Or the player finally hits the performance wall so what the management team thought they were getting doesn't happen. Or they want to trade for player A but the deal falls through and options B,C and D are gone so they have to settle for option E. Those are all reasonable explinations for why a management team doesn't perform to the best of their abilities - none of which include "they don't really want to win".

I guess if you don't want to share your rationale then you can write my orginal post off as rude and duck the question. But I think it's fair game since you've made your fealings so clear in many different posts.
I never once said that I didn't think they wanted to win. I know daggone well that everyone in MLB wants to win and no one more than our owner. GM, and manager. I have no idea what way they should go to attain this, but it isn't what they are doing--right now. I've said a million times on this board that if this is building for the future and thre is a plan, then fine. I can live with that. But to come out and say we're going to contend right away and makes some of the moves they've made is a contradiction.

As far as saying I want everything my way, what's up with that? Yes, like you and everyone else, I want this team to win and I see things that make that impossible. So? My way would be to win every game. It's not possible, of course, but that's what I want.

And it gets personal when you start saying things like WVRedsFan's way. I'm no baby and I've followed this team and this game for nearly 50 years. I've been through most of the lows and all of the highs since 1961. In your eyes I may not know anything about baseball, and that's your privilege, but don't call me out ever. I'm just a fan and I suggest if you don't like what I write that you ignore me (or better yet, put me on ignore). It works wonders.

This is my last word on this and you can be certain that you are on ignore as I type.

MaineRed
04-25-2007, 01:24 AM
I agree with Wheelhouse, WVRedsFan, and Highlifeman21 and their themes.

I donít think that Narron can leave it alone (psychologically) even when he does find a lineup that performs and produces well for the team. I have seen him time and again stumble upon a lineup that goes out and hits and scores well, even season highs, then he changes the mix.

There are just as many examples of Jerry putting out a line-up everyone loves and having it lay an egg.


Never know where Dunn, Phillips, or Encarcion might be hitting one day to the next, anyone sure that the inconsistency by Narron does not effect Dunn, Phillips or Encarcion?

Anyone sure it does? If a guy can't show up at the park and be happy enough to see his name on the line-up card perhaps we have a bigger problem than Jerry Narron. I don't for a second believe Edwin Encarnacion's amateurish at bats have anything to do with where he is batting. The dude is struggling and it is not Jerry's fault. Sorry. I don't know what is going on but it is not the managers job to spend individual time working with Dunn, Edwin, BP, Ross and everyone else on their hitting. Speaking of Ross I noticed you left him off your list of struggling players. That is probably because he bats in the same spot in the order and still struggles. How you going to pin that on Jerry?


Why can right handerís hit righties, but lefthanders canít hit lefties if given enough exposure to them in Narronís theory?

Most people are right handed. Right handed batters grow up facing mostly righties. Left handed batters grow up facing mostly righties. Rarely does the left handed hitter face a lefty pitcher as they develop. Then hey get to the majors they not only have to do something they haven't had a lot of experience with but they also have to face the cream of the crop lefty's. There is a reason there are left handed relief specialist and really no such term for equally talented right handed relievers. Some lefthanded batters can hit lefties. Their names are Ken Griffey Junior, Barry Bonds, etc, etc. That is why those guys play every day.


they donít have a true lead off hitter, batters need protection, lefties need separated?

Why not the following?
Encarcion
Dunn
Conine
Griffey
Hamilton
Phillips
Ross
Gonzalez
Pitcher

Swim or drown with them until Krivsky can find upgrades.

Edwin leading off? Yikes. The anti Narron crowd reminds me of a certain political party. Lots of complaining about the way things are but nothing close to a consensus on how things should be. I see a lot of dislike for Narron but I also see a lot of disagreement on what he needs to do to win the critics over. One guy wants Freel to play everyday while the next guy wants Freel on the bench. Some suggest Hatte sit but as soon as Conine goes in the tank Narron is a moron for overusing a 40 year old. The team has no lead-off hitter? Eh, just bat a the struggling kid first. Some of the ideas on what Narron should do are much worse than anything he has actually done or said.

Razor Shines
04-25-2007, 01:35 AM
There are just as many examples of Jerry putting out a line-up everyone loves and having it lay an egg.



Anyone sure it does? If a guy can't show up at the park and be happy enough to see his name on the line-up card perhaps we have a bigger problem than Jerry Narron. I don't for a second believe Edwin Encarnacion's amateurish at bats have anything to do with where he is batting. The dude is struggling and it is not Jerry's fault. Sorry. I don't know what is going on but it is not the managers job to spend individual time working with Dunn, Edwin, BP, Ross and everyone else on their hitting. Speaking of Ross I noticed you left him off your list of struggling players. That is probably because he bats in the same spot in the order and still struggles. How you going to pin that on Jerry?



Most people are right handed. Right handed batters grow up facing mostly righties. Left handed batters grow up facing mostly righties. Rarely does the left handed hitter face a lefty pitcher as they develop. Then hey get to the majors they not only have to do something they haven't had a lot of experience with but they also have to face the cream of the crop lefty's. There is a reason there are left handed relief specialist and really no such term for equally talented right handed relievers. Some lefthanded batters can hit lefties. Their names are Ken Griffey Junior, Barry Bonds, etc, etc. That is why those guys play every day.



Edwin leading off? Yikes. The anti Narron crowd reminds me of a certain political party. Lots of complaining about the way things are but nothing close to a consensus on how things should be. I see a lot of dislike for Narron but I also see a lot of disagreement on what he needs to do to win the critics over. One guy wants Freel to play everyday while the next guy wants Freel on the bench. Some suggest Hatte sit but as soon as Conine goes in the tank Narron is a moron for overusing a 40 year old. The team has no lead-off hitter? Eh, just bat a the struggling kid first. Some of the ideas on what Narron should do are much worse than anything he has actually done or said.

I pretty much agree with everything in this post. The one thing I will say about Narron moving EE around is that the last couple games Narron moved him down in the order and he started hitting. I think it helped take pressure off of EE, but of course for this team to be successful EE's got to be a middle of the order hitter so he has to move him back up in the order. So there is going to be some inconsistency on where EE hits. People who look for any reason to blame Narron will say he's jerking EE around, but I look at it and see that Narron is trying to help a young guy play out of his slump by taking pressure off of him.

Spring~Fields
04-25-2007, 02:57 AM
If those points are correct then Jerry just does not have the horses like most of us complained last winter and beyond hope wrote how much Krivsky needed to find Narron those horses, offensively, defensively, pitching and bench. Obviously the crew that he and Krivsky has recruited is just not good enough. Especially if they face pitchers below the ERA of 4.50.

No one knows what that lineup proposed above would do, or how EE and et el would do in that order. Each lineup is pure speculation, even Narrons which most often produce below .500 finishes just like Miley and Boones did.

I am not anti-Narron, Miley, or Boone. I am anti-losing.

Spring~Fields
04-25-2007, 03:21 AM
There are just as many examples of Jerry putting out a line-up everyone loves and having it lay an egg.

That is probably the one with Freel leading off Dunn hitting second, Junior third and Encarcion hitting fourth and so on, it has laid quite a few eggs. I can't imagine having a "struggling kid" batting cleanup.




I don't for a second believe Edwin Encarnacion's amateurish at bats have anything to do with where he is batting. The dude is struggling and it is not Jerry's fault. Sorry. I don't know what is going on but it is not the managers job to spend individual time working with Dunn, Edwin, BP, Ross and everyone else on their hitting. Speaking of Ross I noticed you left him off your list of struggling players. That is probably because he bats in the same spot in the order and still struggles. How you going to pin that on Jerry?

I was under the impression that the hitting coach and other coaches work with the players on the problem areas. They speak of extra fielding, hitting etc. As far as Ross I had forgotten about him, though if I were trying to pin the lack of leadership that inspires greater performance from their people on Narron I would I pin his lack of talent on Narron.

I would by him being a part of the talent evaulation along with his staff and Krivsky and his staff for the simple reason they evaluate the talent and believe each of these players to be solid performers and apparently they are or were wrong. I would assume that they would not be on the team to begin with if Narron had believed that a Hancock or Ross was not good enough.




Most people are right handed. Right handed batters grow up facing mostly righties. Left handed batters grow up facing mostly righties. Rarely does the left handed hitter face a lefty pitcher as they develop. Then hey get to the majors they not only have to do something they haven't had a lot of experience with but they also have to face the cream of the crop lefty's. There is a reason there are left handed relief specialist and really no such term for equally talented right handed relievers. Some lefthanded batters can hit lefties. Their names are Ken Griffey Junior, Barry Bonds, etc, etc. That is why those guys play every day.

I never considered that. Since right handers have rarely seen left handers while developing why are they able to hit them?




Edwin leading off? Yikes. The anti Narron crowd reminds me of a certain political party. Lots of complaining about the way things are but nothing close to a consensus on how things should be. I see a lot of dislike for Narron but I also see a lot of disagreement on what he needs to do to win the critics over. One guy wants Freel to play everyday while the next guy wants Freel on the bench. Some suggest Hatte sit but as soon as Conine goes in the tank Narron is a moron for overusing a 40 year old. The team has no lead-off hitter? Eh, just bat a the struggling kid first. Some of the ideas on what Narron should do are much worse than anything he has actually done or said.

I have never seen what EE can do with substantial protection behind him, I don't see how any of us could really know how he would do. I have yet to see Conine tank yet either. I don't think there will be much chance of over use of Hatteberg or Conine. Griffey, Dunn, Coffee, Freel and Weathers yes.

mth123
04-25-2007, 05:46 AM
I'm with you on the more consistent lineup thing, but the Reds' best #2 hitter, and he's so far ahead of any other option the team might employ there it's not even close, isn't a contact-hitting, hit-and-run, advance-the-runner type. He's a pitch-taking, big-swinging monster. Fortunately he doesn't need any time to adapt to the position, he's ready-made for it. Just put him at #2 and worry about the rest of the lineup.

Where Narron gets into trouble is everytime he puts the guy in the #2 slot and watches the guy produce he then starts moving the fellow around the lineup in a fit of whimsy.

The problem is really that the guy who is best suited for number 2 is also best for number 3, number 4 and number 5 (and at the risk of being called Bob Boone number 1 as well).

Fact is there are 8 holes to fill and only three maybe four good hitters to fill them with. I think sometimes he outsmarts himself by trying to get some decent hitting toward the bottom of the order and while I think its less preferable to bunching the best hitters at the top, I see the logic of not having 4 or 5 spots in a row for opposing pitchers to breeze through.

Its the cost of the shift from offense to defense I guess.

Wheelhouse
04-25-2007, 06:04 AM
or maybe a lack of offensive ability.

We'll never know with the nightly Cuisinart that are Narron's lineups. Impossible to judge an offense in such a helter-skelter context.

Wheelhouse
04-25-2007, 06:24 AM
The problem is really that the guy who is best suited for number 2 is also best for number 3, number 4 and number 5 (and at the risk of being called Bob Boone number 1 as well).

Fact is there are 8 holes to fill and only three maybe four good hitters to fill them with. I think sometimes he outsmarts himself by trying to get some decent hitting toward the bottom of the order and while I think its less preferable to bunching the best hitters at the top, I see the logic of not having 4 or 5 spots in a row for opposing pitchers to breeze through.

Its the cost of the shift from offense to defense I guess.

I see Dunn, Hamilton, Griffey, Encarnacion, Phillips being above average at their positions with the stick, Ross/Valentin and Gonzalez being average, and Hatteberg/Conine being below average (in a league with some extraordinary first-basemen)--a fine lineup if you ask me.

I'd throw this lineup out there for three weeks and see what happens:

Phillips
Dunn
Hamilton
Griffey
Encarnacion
Hatte/Conine
Ross/Valentin
Gonzalez

Phillips an ideal leadoff man? Now, no, but does he have the talent to be? Yes, if given a little time there to develop and adapt to performing at that spot in the order. Learning patience at the plate would help his game tremendously. We all know putting Adam in a spot where he is forced to simply make contact helps his game. Hamilton as the best hitter, third. Griffey in the pure power/RBI slot Encarnacion in the second power/RBI slot.
Hatte/Conine in the average hitter/average power slot. and Ross/Valentin weak hitter with pop. Gonzalez at #8 with average pop/OBP.

mth123
04-25-2007, 06:39 AM
I see Dunn, Hamilton, Griffey, Encarnacion, Phillips being above average at their positions with the stick, Ross/Valentin and Gonzalez being average, and Hatteberg/Conine being below average (in a league with some extraordinary first-basemen)--a fine lineup if you ask me.

I'd throw this lineup out there for three weeks and see what happens:

Phillips
Dunn
Hamilton
Griffey
Encarnacion
Hatte/Conine
Ross/Valentin
Gonzalez

Phillips an ideal leadoff man? Now, no, but does he have the talent to be? Yes, if given a little time there to develop and adapt to performing at that spot in the order. Learning patience at the plate would help his game tremendously. We all know putting Adam in a spot where he is forced to simply make contact helps his game. Hamilton as the best hitter, third. Griffey in the pure power/RBI slot Encarnacion in the second power/RBI slot.
Hatte/Conine in the average hitter/average power slot. and Ross/Valentin weak hitter with pop. Gonzalez at #8 with average pop/OBP.

I'm not as convinced about Phillips. I think he and Gonzalez are purely number 7 and 8 hitters who are prone to long stretches where they become out machines. I notice Freel isn't in your starting eight. Gotta say I agree with that. I like this line-up below based on what the Reds have to work with, but I think its below average at all spots below number 4. I just don't see enough good hitters for the line-up to go too deep.

Hamilton CF
Dunn LF
Encarnacion 3B
Griffey RF
Ross C (If he doesn't regain his pop the team is sunk. This spot assumes he will.)
Hatte/Conine 1B
Phillips 2B
Gonzalez SS

While Ross is slumping, I might switch him and the 1B platoon.

Wheelhouse
04-25-2007, 06:39 AM
The argument that the players just need to be happy to be in the lineup and "do their jobs" is like saying a team that does not take batting practice and performs badly needs to just get over it. My feeling is that a set lineup is an approach to the game that improves performance for the simple reason that players get to gel into their roles as hitters. They get more work in at fulfilling roles. Examples: If you have a batter who hits behind Freel who sees exactly how he behaves every night on base when he's hitting and how Freel OB effects pitchers' behavior, when you can get used to an AB where the pitcher will throw over three or four times (timing), when you get to know how the hitter behind you will effect the pitches you get, when you know what you need to get done based on what the hitter behind you does best, all of this helps and offense start to work at the best of its ability. Those things take time and experience to incorporate into a hitting approach. Pete Rose said,"It is easier to win a baseball game when you have a set lineup." I agree. I think a team learns how to win baseball games, and how it does so best based on its abilities, when the players have consistent visibility of their roles in the batting order.

Ltlabner
04-25-2007, 07:57 AM
In your eyes I may not know anything about baseball, and that's your privilege, but don't call me out ever. I'm just a fan and I suggest if you don't like what I write that you ignore me (or better yet, put me on ignore). It works wonders.

I guess asking you to explain your posts is "calling you out". Funny, I thought challenging each other's opinions, and discussing baseball was all part of a message board.

MaineRed
04-25-2007, 07:58 AM
I never considered that. Since right handers have rarely seen left handers while developing why are they able to hit them?

The same reason a lefty batter would rather face a RIGHT handed pitcher. It is much easier to pick up the ball when you are getting a pitch from the opposite arm.

RFS62
04-25-2007, 08:07 AM
The same reason a lefty batter would rather face a RIGHT handed pitcher. It is much easier to pick up the ball when you are getting a pitch from the opposite arm.


I'd say it's more that his breaking stuff doesn't tail away from him, for either side.

Hard sliders breaking away changed baseball forever.

GAC
04-25-2007, 08:11 AM
Isn't it normal for any manager, when your team, and especially particular batters you depend upon, come out of the gate slumping offensively, to try and mix things up?

And maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but don't we have plenty of starting RH hitters?..... EE, Phillips, Gonzo, Freel, Conine, Ross. Now I acknowledge that a couple of them haven't been hitting worth a darn to start the season (EE and Ross in particular); but a couple of our lefties haven't been doing their part either, and as of late, in Dunn and Jr.

Sea Ray
04-25-2007, 10:36 AM
Gosh...

Take this team and put them in the hands of a top-flite manager and they would be 12-8 right now. That's my contention and if you disagree, fine.


You think this team has .600 talent? I think you're seriously over valuing the talent on this team. If they finish with a .600 winning percentage Narron in Manager of the year and gets a multiyear extension from ownership.

Ithink they've got .500 talent that's right about where Narron has them. He's been an OK manager. Not great but not horrible either.

WVRedsFan
04-25-2007, 11:03 AM
You think this team has .600 talent? I think you're seriously over valuing the talent on this team. If they finish with a .600 winning percentage Narron in Manager of the year and gets a multiyear extension from ownership.

Ithink they've got .500 talent that's right about where Narron has them. He's been an OK manager. Not great but not horrible either.

I was saying they are a team with .500 talent, but I think the right manager or coach can take that talent and increase that winning percentage to .550. You can look at Bob Huggins at Kansas State (bb) or any number of any other examples to see what I mean.

Regardless, we have Jerry and we'll end up probably slightly below .500. So be it.

WVRedsFan
04-25-2007, 11:07 AM
I am not anti-Narron, Miley, or Boone. I am anti-losing.
That pretty well sums up me too. Listen, I don't even know Jerry Narron nor have I ever met him. I have a brother who has met him and he says he a super fellow, so I'll take his word for it. It's just that he's in charge and he can make all the boneheaded moves he wants if he wins. Like SF, I'm anti-losing.

westofyou
04-25-2007, 11:18 AM
I'm anti-losing.

Aren't we all?

Talent is a bus that takes everyone everywhere, just ask Don Zimmer and Mayo Smith, then query Gene Mauch and Casey and Torre.

Sea Ray
04-25-2007, 11:19 AM
I was saying they are a team with .500 talent, but I think the right manager or coach can take that talent and increase that winning percentage to .550. You can look at Bob Huggins at Kansas State (bb) or any number of any other examples to see what I mean.

Regardless, we have Jerry and we'll end up probably slightly below .500. So be it.


If you acknowledge that they have a team with .500 talent then Narron with all his blunders has managed to get them right where they should be.

Ohioballplayer
04-25-2007, 12:14 PM
Once the bats start blazing, this team will be okay. It's just a slump, people.


I dont know about all that, they are a bunch of free swingers with no plate discipline, Narron doesn't help mattes much as wheelhouse has already stated quite wisely I might add.

Gotta have some steam in the pipes for the Big Red Machine, only steam I see at GABP is the steam coming from the Pepsi stacks.

westofyou
04-25-2007, 12:19 PM
I dont know about all that, they are a bunch of free swingers with no plate discipline, 74 BB in 20 games, 6 off from being 4th in the NL, currently 9th. The teams .240 BA and lack of doubles is dragging them down more then "free swinging"

Ohioballplayer
04-25-2007, 12:48 PM
WOY,

While I always value your opinion, you know those stats will continue to decline steadily, if not severely.

Which equals = Free Swinging

I for one hope its just nerves.

Spring~Fields
04-25-2007, 04:08 PM
Aren't we all?

Talent is a bus that takes everyone everywhere, just ask Don Zimmer and Mayo Smith, then query Gene Mauch and Casey and Torre.

I really like that, it is well said, as it applies much deeper and wider than just a game on a given day.

Spring~Fields
04-25-2007, 04:23 PM
The same reason a lefty batter would rather face a RIGHT handed pitcher. It is much easier to pick up the ball when you are getting a pitch from the opposite arm.

Ok, thank you

I am glad that you answered that, because many of those were simply questions. I was really afraid that you or other would infer sarcasms, I was worried about that after I posted last night. When what you and the others had written cued and triggered several questions in my mind and I thought oh what the heck I will just ask them sink or swim.

I thought that this was a really good thread with a lot of interesting potential.

Spring~Fields
04-25-2007, 04:45 PM
I see Dunn, Hamilton, Griffey, Encarnacion, Phillips being above average at their positions with the stick, Ross/Valentin and Gonzalez being average, and Hatteberg/Conine being below average (in a league with some extraordinary first-basemen)--a fine lineup if you ask me.

I'd throw this lineup out there for three weeks and see what happens:

Phillips
Dunn
Hamilton
Griffey
Encarnacion
Hatte/Conine
Ross/Valentin
Gonzalez

Phillips an ideal leadoff man? Now, no, but does he have the talent to be? Yes, if given a little time there to develop and adapt to performing at that spot in the order. Learning patience at the plate would help his game tremendously. We all know putting Adam in a spot where he is forced to simply make contact helps his game. Hamilton as the best hitter, third. Griffey in the pure power/RBI slot Encarnacion in the second power/RBI slot.
Hatte/Conine in the average hitter/average power slot. and Ross/Valentin weak hitter with pop. Gonzalez at #8 with average pop/OBP.

I can live with this understanding and approach with consistency. I donít mind having a purpose of letting a talent develop. In that vain of thought that you are stating about Phillips is why I tossed out Encarcion to see if it helped him develop into his potential and then at a later time place him where you are indicating that he would be better suited.


I'm not as convinced about Phillips. I think he and Gonzalez are purely number 7 and 8 hitters who are prone to long stretches where they become out machines. I notice Freel isn't in your starting eight. Gotta say I agree with that. I like this line-up below based on what the Reds have to work with, but I think its below average at all spots below number 4. I just don't see enough good hitters for the line-up to go too deep.

Hamilton CF
Dunn LF
Encarnacion 3B
Griffey RF
Ross C (If he doesn't regain his pop the team is sunk. This spot assumes he will.)
Hatte/Conine 1B
Phillips 2B
Gonzalez SS

While Ross is slumping, I might switch him and the 1B platoon.

This makes a lot of sense also. I also like that it reduces what we term auto-outs, or we should call them NAO near auto outs in the lower order, hopefully getting more production per inning over the cumulative. I am concerned about having what was most recently a carpenter having never played above A ball leading off. I donít know, he might do great there, I hope so.

Spring~Fields
04-25-2007, 11:50 PM
What was it just 3 hits tonight until the late two hits that made it 5?

WVRedsFan
04-26-2007, 12:11 AM
Yes.

And only Hamilton's homer was what I consider a hard hit ball.

WVRedsFan
04-26-2007, 12:13 AM
If you acknowledge that they have a team with .500 talent then Narron with all his blunders has managed to get them right where they should be.

But what if we had someone who didn't make all those blunders?

But a thought just came to mind. Narron may be the best we'll ever get, so I guess we really need to improve the team on the field so the blunders won't matter as much?

Sea Ray
04-26-2007, 08:32 AM
But what if we had someone who didn't make all those blunders?

But a thought just came to mind. Narron may be the best we'll ever get, so I guess we really need to improve the team on the field so the blunders won't matter as much?

Managers are always 2nd guessed. My point is whatever perceived blunders Narron has made must have been countered with decent moves 'cause he has them at about .500 which is what the talent is. It's hard to manage players like he has right now.

Where do you put or use the following:

1) Ross who's struggling to hit .100

2) Dunn whose best ABs are walks these days

3) Griffey's been out

4) Saarloos and Coffey for whatever reason are not getting people out right now

5) EE is not hitting

Narron doesn't have a lot of options right now.

Sea Ray
04-26-2007, 08:34 AM
I'd throw this lineup out there for three weeks and see what happens:

Phillips
Dunn
Hamilton
Griffey
Encarnacion
Hatte/Conine
Ross/Valentin
Gonzalez

That lineup has three lefties in a row and will be meat for any team with a lefty relief specialist.

Ohioballplayer
04-26-2007, 09:20 AM
I dont like any lineup that has Dunn batting second

M2
04-26-2007, 09:27 AM
I dont like any lineup that has Dunn batting second

Yeah, wouldn't want to hit the guy where he's most effective.

westofyou
04-26-2007, 09:29 AM
Yeah, wouldn't want to hit the guy where he's most effective.

Madness, just madness.

Ohioballplayer
04-26-2007, 09:30 AM
most effective, elaborate, please?

membengal
04-26-2007, 09:40 AM
He gets on base, ohioballplayer. He sees better pitches to hit. He jumpstarts a team needing offense in the most desperate way. Taking his bat out of the spot in the line-up where his skills are most maixmized is particularly ill-advised, in my opinion....

Ohioballplayer
04-26-2007, 09:48 AM
He gets on base, ohioballplayer. He sees better pitches to hit. He jumpstarts a team needing offense in the most desperate way. Taking his bat out of the spot in the line-up where his skills are most maixmized is particularly ill-advised, in my opinion....


Let me get this straight, at the moment is Dunn a contact hitter of a power hitter? Better pitches to hit? Guys, I dont understand how you put a 40+ hr guy in the 2 slot. I dont see great teams doing this, at any point in the past, maybe I am old-fashioned.

1 - Speedy contact hitter
2 - contact with 12-15 hr power
3 - your best hitter period
4 - CLUTCH (need I say more)
5 - POWER
6 - 20+ hr power
7 - contact
8 - best fielder (if he hits .280 it's a BONUS)
9 - pitcher

And this is why i value opinions, I am not saying that I am right, but the proof is in the pudding (so to speak)

M2
04-26-2007, 09:55 AM
most effective, elaborate, please?

No. I've typed it so many times, I'm weary of it. Dunn hits best in the #2 slot. Look it up if you don't believe me.

Ohioballplayer
04-26-2007, 10:01 AM
Maybe personally for him yes, but good for the team, NO.

Like throwing a wrench in the works.

last thing we need is 40hr, 80 rbi guy

westofyou
04-26-2007, 10:03 AM
last thing we need is 40hr, 80 rbi guy

Who scores 115 runs too, don't need that at all.

membengal
04-26-2007, 10:06 AM
Yeah. No doubt. Run scoring is HIGHLY over-rated. People who score runs should be banished from the Reds.

Oh. Wait. Looking at their offensive output for 2007 to date, it appears they already have been...

membengal
04-26-2007, 10:08 AM
Let me get this straight, at the moment is Dunn a contact hitter of a power hitter? Better pitches to hit? Guys, I dont understand how you put a 40+ hr guy in the 2 slot. I dont see great teams doing this, at any point in the past, maybe I am old-fashioned.

1 - Speedy contact hitter
2 - contact with 12-15 hr power
3 - your best hitter period
4 - CLUTCH (need I say more)
5 - POWER
6 - 20+ hr power
7 - contact
8 - best fielder (if he hits .280 it's a BONUS)
9 - pitcher

And this is why i value opinions, I am not saying that I am right, but the proof is in the pudding (so to speak)


1 - High OBP guy
2 - High OBP guy
3 - High OBP (clutch is an illusion)
4 - High OBP (clutch remains an illusion)
5 - High OBP guy
6 - whatever's leftover
7 - whatever's leftover
8 - whatever's leftover

Give me guys who get on base, and get on base at very high rates, and that team will score runs. I want Dunn in 2nd, as do a lot of observers, because he gets on base better than anyone else on this team. Without question.

Ohioballplayer
04-26-2007, 10:10 AM
Who scores 115 runs too, don't need that at all.

115 runs, when in his career?

100 runs twice, 99 last year, while a steady decline in OPS, I need something concrete, not an educated guess, cmon' stimulate mr brain if there's any cells left. :evil:

westofyou
04-26-2007, 10:12 AM
100 runs twice, 99 last yearStick him in one place for the season and then wait, those numbers are skewed by batting 6th and worse time and time again aren't they?

membengal
04-26-2007, 10:12 AM
M2 is correct, this discussion has been had times infinity on this site, and there is simply no reason for that crew to rehash it one more time. There are plenty of places where it has been laid out (even in the last five days).

And now 100 runs is something to be dismissive of? The rush to bash Dunn never does know reason...

Ohioballplayer
04-26-2007, 10:13 AM
1 - High OBP guy
2 - High OBP guy
3 - High OBP (clutch is an illusion)
4 - High OBP (clutch remains an illusion)
5 - High OBP guy
6 - whatever's leftover
7 - whatever's leftover
8 - whatever's leftover

Give me guys who get on base, and get on base at very high rates, and that team will score runs. I want Dunn in 2nd, as do a lot of observers, because he gets on base better than anyone else on this team. Without question.

He also creates a cool yet refreshing breeze to the southeast 185.6 times a year (in the last 3). Great at the top of the order, no?

Highlifeman21
04-26-2007, 10:14 AM
115 runs, when in his career?

100 runs twice, 99 last year, while a steady decline in OPS, I need something concrete, not an educated guess, cmon' stimulate mr brain if there's any cells left. :evil:

Not exactly 115, but...

105
107
99

Those are Dunn's last three years for R.

532 R in 841 G.

When you project that over 162 G, he averages 102 R.

I'll take that.

Ohioballplayer
04-26-2007, 10:15 AM
Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one fellas, and not at one time did I say I was bashing Dunn, but opinions are what they are.

westofyou
04-26-2007, 10:17 AM
M2 is correct, this discussion has been had times infinity on this site, and there is simply no reason for that crew to rehash it one more time. There are plenty of places where it has been laid out (even in the last five days).

And now 100 runs is something to be dismissive of? The rush to bash Dunn never does know reason...

8 Reds have scored 100 runs since the strike, only 8 and Dunn has 2 of them.


CINCINNATI REDS
SEASON
1995-2006

RUNS YEAR R
1 Barry Larkin 1996 117
2 Barry Larkin 1999 108
3 Adam Dunn 2005 107
4 Adam Dunn 2004 105
5 Greg Vaughn 1999 104
6 Sean Casey 1999 103
7 Sean Casey 2004 101
8 Ken Griffey Jr. 2000 100
9 Adam Dunn 2006 99
10 Barry Larkin 1995 98

membengal
04-26-2007, 10:19 AM
He also creates a cool yet refreshing breeze to the southeast 185.6 times a year (in the last 3). Great at the top of the order, no?

If he gets on base more than anyone else on the team, why do you care about how he makes outs in those times that he doesn't get on base?

M2
04-26-2007, 10:20 AM
Maybe personally for him yes, but good for the team, NO.

Like throwing a wrench in the works.

last thing we need is 40hr, 80 rbi guy

Having players produce piles of runs helps the team.

Sea Ray
04-26-2007, 10:22 AM
I dont like any lineup that has Dunn batting second


Here's the thing with Dunn. He hits 40+ HRs a year, takes a lot of walks thus a high OBP but he's horrible at driving in runs. Strange combination, I know, but with all that, I can see how he produces best in the #2 hole. It's a shame he's not a run producer but unless that changes, #2 in the best spot for him IMO

Redsland
04-26-2007, 10:42 AM
most effective, elaborate, please?
Three-year splits:

By Batting OrderAB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Batting #2 133 20 41 7 0 9 26 22 5 45 2 0 .308 .425 .564 .989
Batting #3 148 27 35 8 0 13 30 32 1 54 0 0 .236 .374 .554 .928
Batting #4 621 108 151 39 0 40 98 109 7 198 7 1 .243 .362 .499 .861
Batting #5 533 107 127 21 2 45 95 129 6 183 7 2 .238 .390 .538 .928
Batting #6 212 43 55 16 0 16 41 40 4 69 1 0 .259 .387 .561 .948

The numbers above are for all the spots in which Adam has more than 17 ABs during the past three years. As you can see, he puts up the best numbers in the two hole.

Ohioballplayer
04-26-2007, 11:02 AM
Redsland, good stuff, thanks, numbers don't lie, thanks for setting me straight. I will share this with a few friends. But the Reds need a 40hr guy that drives in runs, IMO.

Redsland
04-26-2007, 11:08 AM
But the Reds need a 40hr guy that drives in runs, IMO.
Why stop at one? :beerme:

Ohioballplayer
04-26-2007, 11:11 AM
Oh so true, agreed.