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View Full Version : The Narron Chronicle: 4/25 vs. Cards



Wheelhouse
04-25-2007, 10:59 PM
I'm starting a log of Jerry's games and how he does from my POV. Please chime in.

Good moves:
Same lineup as last night.

Bad moves:
Bunting in the first inning, the one Looper usually has trouble with. Also, having scored 10 runs the night before, sucking the wind out of any confidence created by that. In addition, taking the bat out of Brandon Phillips hand, a hitter who must get going. An out just given away...in the first inning...

Pulling a cruising Bronson Arroyo...again...

Overall:
Jerry got his lips off the crack pipe of changing lineups, but started shaking and sweating, thus making moves that lost the game. Terribly over-managed game.

Patrick Bateman
04-25-2007, 11:04 PM
I'm starting a log of Jerry's games and how he does from my POV. Please chime in.

Good moves:
Same lineup as last night.

Bad moves:
Bunting in the first inning, the one Looper usually has trouble with. Also, having scored 10 runs the night before, sucking the wind out of any confidence created by that. In addition, taking the bat out of Brandon Phillips hand, a hitter who must get going. An out just given away...in the first inning...

Pulling a cruising Bronson Arroyo...again...

Overall:
Jerry got his lips off the crack pipe of changing lineups, but started shaking and sweating, thus making moves that lost the game. Terribly over-managed game.

Phillips did the bunt by himself. That wasn't Narron.

I agree on Arroyo though. I would have left him in. He had at least an inning left knowing his durability, and he was cruising. Use the bullpen as little as possible when Arroyo is on the hill.

Wheelhouse
04-25-2007, 11:08 PM
Phillips did the bunt by himself. That wasn't Narron.

I agree on Arroyo though. I would have left him in. He had at least an inning left knowing his durability, and he was cruising. Use the bullpen as little as possible when Arroyo is on the hill.

Whew. I hope Jerry had some words for Brandon after that choice...but yanking Arroyo after 90 pitches? Poopie.

WVRedsFan
04-25-2007, 11:09 PM
Phillips did the bunt by himself. That wasn't Narron.

I agree on Arroyo though. I would have left him in. He had at least an inning left knowing his durability, and he was cruising. Use the bullpen as little as possible when Arroyo is on the hill.

I totally agree. Bunting was stupid in that situation though.

I also agree on Arroyo. He could have gone at least some of the 8th inning, but Narron seems to be snakebit. He makes the wrong move no matter what. I don't understand this, but it happens often.

Caveat Emperor
04-25-2007, 11:11 PM
I
Pulling a cruising Bronson Arroyo...again...


Somehow, I'm quite certain that if he would've left Bronson in another inning and run his pitch count to the 115-120 range, you'd have people screaming about how he abuses the starters.

I find absolutely no flaws in Narron's manegerial strategy tonight. Players simply didn't execute when they were called upon to do so.

Go out and win the series tomorrow.

RFS62
04-25-2007, 11:17 PM
Somehow, I'm quite certain that if he would've left Bronson in another inning and run his pitch count to the 115-120 range, you'd have people screaming about how he abuses the starters.

I find absolutely no flaws in Narron's manegerial strategy tonight. Players simply didn't execute when they were called upon to do so.

Go out and win the series tomorrow.


yep

TOBTTReds
04-25-2007, 11:22 PM
How about Saarloos in a game that is tied and late!!! not his role!

redsupport
04-25-2007, 11:33 PM
he loves coffey and saarloss

Matt700wlw
04-25-2007, 11:42 PM
Somehow, I'm quite certain that if he would've left Bronson in another inning and run his pitch count to the 115-120 range, you'd have people screaming about how he abuses the starters.

I find absolutely no flaws in Narron's manegerial strategy tonight. Players simply didn't execute when they were called upon to do so.

Go out and win the series tomorrow.


I can't get on Jerry tonight either...the pulling Arroyo situation was a good one to pull him in....not because of his pitch count, but because you're in a tie game, in the 8th, with him leading off....you bring in Freel, and hope he can get on base with the top of the order coming up.

Now, tomorrow, Jerry may outmanage himself and be worthy of blame....

WVPacman
04-25-2007, 11:43 PM
Somehow, I'm quite certain that if he would've left Bronson in another inning and run his pitch count to the 115-120 range, you'd have people screaming about how he abuses the starters.

I find absolutely no flaws in Narron's manegerial strategy tonight. Players simply didn't execute when they were called upon to do so.

Go out and win the series tomorrow.


Not me caveat,thats whats arong with todays managers!! They seem like they have to watch that pitch count for all the pitchers.All these players are pros and thats why they are out there to play and help their team win.They don't want to come out after 90 pitches,they exspect to stay out there and pitch 115-120.This is the major leagues not a old timers game.

Matt700wlw
04-25-2007, 11:43 PM
How about Saarloos in a game that is tied and late!!! not his role!

What is his role? Does he have a set role?

Coffey's shown he can't handle that role....

Wheelhouse
04-25-2007, 11:45 PM
Somehow, I'm quite certain that if he would've left Bronson in another inning and run his pitch count to the 115-120 range, you'd have people screaming about how he abuses the starters.

I find absolutely no flaws in Narron's manegerial strategy tonight. Players simply didn't execute when they were called upon to do so.

Go out and win the series tomorrow.

Arroyo had thrown 90 pitches, and had retired 10 in a row. No guilt leaving him in...

Spring~Fields
04-25-2007, 11:47 PM
I would have left him in, there was a chance that those first two might not have reached against him. Who do they have better?

Razor Shines
04-25-2007, 11:53 PM
Arroyo had thrown 90 pitches, and had retired 10 in a row. No guilt leaving him in...

It was 96 pitches and I don't really have a problem with him taking Arroyo out since he was leading off the inning. Especially since he had Freel to use in that situation. Someone in the game thread said it's bad move to roll the dice on a guy with a 28% chance to get a hit, well Freel has over 36% chance to get on base. Honestly I can see that move going either way, I don't think there was a definite right answer on that one. One thing that is certain he was going to ripped on redszone either way.

Also everyone jumped on him for taking out Arroyo last week only to find out the next day Arroyo asked to come out. I doubt that was the situation in this case but taking guys out too early is not a pattern that Narron usually follows.

Matt700wlw
04-25-2007, 11:54 PM
If the bullpen holds it and the Reds win, Jerry Narron made the right move, right?

I'm not Jerry's biggest fan, there are better options out there (another thread, not getting into it) but I'm not going to blame him every time the Reds lose if I don't feel it's warranted.


Funny game, this baseball is...

WVPacman
04-25-2007, 11:54 PM
I do want to add thow that this isn't all Narrons fault!! The ofense is shockingly terrible this year.When your in a close game and the only player in your lineup scored a run is a rookie then your team is hurting.

dougdirt
04-25-2007, 11:55 PM
I cant stand Narron, but I understand his logic of hitting for Arroyo. tie game and you can get your normal leadoff hitter up with the top of your line up to follow in the 8th inning. It made sense, it just didn't work out. That happens sometimes.

WVPacman
04-26-2007, 12:02 AM
doug,I understand what you are getting at and yes it was probably the right move.I guess why im second guessing it is b/c I know how bad this bullpen is and if the move did'nt work out then thee reds would be hurting and it hurt us.

Wheelhouse
04-26-2007, 12:04 AM
What is his role? Does he have a set role?

Coffey's shown he can't handle that role....

Since spring he was slated as middle relief/spot starter with Coffey, Stanton, and Weathers being back-end.

WVRedsFan
04-26-2007, 12:16 AM
What is his role? Does he have a set role?

Coffey's shown he can't handle that role....

One of the problems I had with tonight (and I may be way off base here) was that he didn't pull Krik after the frist two batters got on. It was obvious he was looking for a matchup, but the guy didn't have it. Narron doesn't seem to be able to recognize that for some reason.

Then again, with our bullpen, what's the difference?

kaldaniels
04-26-2007, 12:23 AM
Seriously people...I just want everyone to acknowledge this. Every loss is not Jerry Narron's fault. Considering a new thread gets thrown up every time the Reds lose, some here think that is the case. C'mon.

WVPacman
04-26-2007, 12:39 AM
Seriously people...I just want everyone to acknowledge this. Every loss is not Jerry Narron's fault. Considering a new thread gets thrown up every time the Reds lose, some here think that is the case. C'mon.
Very true the starting lineup was 90% of the problem tonight.

Guacarock
04-26-2007, 03:51 AM
Arroyo has now started five games, posting a 2.86 ERA, yet he hasn't collected his first W for the season. That's not just hard luck. It's pathetic, and has to be demoralizing.

So far, he's been victimized by:

1. An anemic offense.
2. Bullpen meltdowns.
3. Lack of bench depth.
4. And, yes, peculiar managerial decisions, as in tonight's choice to use a long reliever/spot starter (Saarloos) as a de facto setup man in a game tied in the eighth inning.

I happen to think the first three factors mentioned above are more troublesome and probably more impactful than No. 4, but I also wouldn't let Narron off the hook. He still hasn't figured out the difference between managing and micro-managing.

He's like a lot of hardcore gamblers I know. Reason and convention don't count much to them. It's the longshot victory that gets them jazzed, especially if they go against the mold, trusting their own internal compass, hunches and whims.

When they score big, they're great guys to be around, freely sharing the wealth and buying lunches or rounds of drinks for friends and strangers alike.

Otherwise, you'll find them dodging creditors and landlords, or having to tear apart their sofas to scrap together a few loose quarters to buy their next cup of coffee. Not exactly a long-range formula for success.

mth123
04-26-2007, 06:49 AM
I've been critical of Narron, but this loss is on WK. Before the season I graded that Pen an F, the Offense a D and the starting pitching a C- (occassional brilliance by Harang and Arroyo offset by mediocrity to awfulness by the rest). The season is playing out just as the talent level of the team says it will. Kyle Lohse good start has made the starting pitching better than C- and if that holds the team will be slightly under .500. If Lohse reverts, the team will struggle to win 70 games.

Narron doesn't have the horses and I can't really fault him. Every move looks bad in hindsight when the players simply aren't good enough to make the moves successful. It was questionable to PH for Arroyo last night, but the team needed runs and had one of its best catalysts available to lead off the inning. Arroyo had gone 7 and may have lost it in the 8th anyway. Narron's primary problem is leaving guys in too long. Taking a guy out before he loses it is what makes a manager successful. It only works when he has the guys in the pen to make it work. This team simply doesn't have it.

RFS62
04-26-2007, 06:57 AM
A manager has to use the personnel he has to make it through the season.

Every day, before the game, he gets with the pitching coach and discusses who's available that night and for how long.

It's asset management. You have to spread the innings around or the guys at the top of the food chain will be gassed by July.

If they're on the team, they have to eat their share of innings.

I'm not saying Kirk wasn't miscast tonight. But I'm not saying he was, either. We don't know what the pre game analysis of the state of the readiness of the pitching staff was.

We don't know all the factors that went into his decision. If we did know, we might very well be justified in blasting him for his decisions. Or not.

But making all the sweeping proclaimations of doom and gloom, managerial malfeasance and ineptitude, as if we somehow know better than the guys on the field and in the clubhouse.... well, it's never going to sit well with me.

Second guessing is fair game. It's part of the fabric of baseball, always has been and always will be.

But the second guesser who speaks in absolutes when he only knows a part of the picture doesn't impress me much.

oneupper
04-26-2007, 07:04 AM
I'll nitpick a bit...
I don't like following Arroyo with Saarloos, because they're the same kind of pitcher...breaking ball guys. Follow Arroyo with a guy like Coffey or Burton.

Saarloos after Harang or Lohse seems to make more sense.

But in reality, if you're going get like 5 hits and score 2 or less...it doesn't make much of a difference what the manager does.

Redsland
04-26-2007, 10:20 AM
I don't like following Arroyo with Saarloos, because they're the same kind of pitcher...breaking ball guys. Follow Arroyo with a guy like Coffey or Burton.
Burton's in AAA, but I agree with your thinking.


I cant stand Narron, but I understand his logic of hitting for Arroyo. tie game and you can get your normal leadoff hitter up with the top of your line up to follow in the 8th inning. It made sense, it just didn't work out. That happens sometimes.
I agree completely. Tie game, on the road, eighth inning, pitcher's spot leading off, Freel available. I'd make that move every time.

Now, if they were at home, maybe I'd leave Arroyo in and hope for some late-inning thunder, but they weren't at home.

Shaggy Sanchez
04-26-2007, 11:03 AM
I'm not a fan of Narron and I think he makes a lot of stupid decisions but you can't put this game on him. I would guess that 9 out of 10 managers would have done the same thing with Arroyo in that situation.

I think the thing that most people have to realize is that this team isn't really very good. This team is going to lose a lot more games than it is going to win and it isn't going to be Narron's fault. I think it starts with WK for not putting a very good team together and then falls to the players for just not being able to get it done. There are a lot of things you can blame Narron for (lineups, BP use, double switches, talking funny, a man love for old guys, etc.) but you have to realize that the majority of the time when the Reds lose this year is going to have more to do with the fact they aren't any good.

pedro
04-26-2007, 11:23 AM
A manager has to use the personnel he has to make it through the season.

Every day, before the game, he gets with the pitching coach and discusses who's available that night and for how long.

It's asset management. You have to spread the innings around or the guys at the top of the food chain will be gassed by July.

If they're on the team, they have to eat their share of innings.

I'm not saying Kirk wasn't miscast tonight. But I'm not saying he was, either. We don't know what the pre game analysis of the state of the readiness of the pitching staff was.

We don't know all the factors that went into his decision. If we did know, we might very well be justified in blasting him for his decisions. Or not.

But making all the sweeping proclaimations of doom and gloom, managerial malfeasance and ineptitude, as if we somehow know better than the guys on the field and in the clubhouse.... well, it's never going to sit well with me.

Second guessing is fair game. It's part of the fabric of baseball, always has been and always will be.

But the second guesser who speaks in absolutes when he only knows a part of the picture doesn't impress me much.

Excellent post RFS.

Regardless, I expect the Reds to lose approximately 70 more times this year and 70 more threads blaming those loses on Narron to be started.

Marc D
04-26-2007, 04:04 PM
Add in the EE, Castro, Phillips double switch (or whatever he did) in todays game please. I know he has lousy personnel but he is every bit as bad as the past 2 clowns have been, but then again people defended them too.

I'm past blaming Narron, I can't honestly blame a dullard for being a dullard. I blame the guy who keeps him. WK is going to have to start catching some of the heat for this mess.

PuffyPig
04-26-2007, 08:16 PM
I can't argue with those that say that Narron should have pinch hit Arroyo in the 8th.

I can't argue with those that say leave Arroyo in.

I think it was a toss up either way.

I do know that lots who say leave him in are basing it on the results.

OnBaseMachine
04-26-2007, 08:21 PM
As much as a I dislike Narron's moves sometimes, I couldn't blame him for making the decision to PH for Arroyo last night. Either decision would have been fine with me in that situation.

GAC
04-26-2007, 08:28 PM
Bad moves:

Pulling a cruising Bronson Arroyo...again...

Narron is "damned if you do, damned if you don't". I've heard way too many fans this year rail on Narron for leaving Arroyo (and others) in too long.

But in this situation he did the right thing. You're in a 1-1 game going into the 8th inning, your pitcher has thrown 90+ pitches, and more importantly - your pitcher is to lead off the following inning. There is no way you let him bat regardless of how well he was pitching. You need base runners with the heart of your order coming up. You have to PH for him. Especially with Freel, who is normally our leadoff guy, sitting on the bench. It was a solid call.

You coming from the vantage point of playing damage control (trying not to lose the game), when we need to be trying to inflict damage (win the game).

Don't fault Narron. Fault the players for not executing.



Overall:
Jerry got his lips off the crack pipe of changing lineups, but started shaking and sweating, thus making moves that lost the game. Terribly over-managed game.

The game was lost by Saarloos who comes in and immediately gives up a single, walk, and then a double.