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WMR
04-27-2007, 08:31 AM
FIRST PERSON
Old Mike, new Christine
By Mike Penner, Times Staff Writer
April 26, 2007


During my 23 years with The Times' sports department, I have held a wide variety of roles and titles. Tennis writer. Angels beat reporter. Olympics writer. Essayist. Sports media critic. NFL columnist. Recent keeper of the Morning Briefing flame.

Today I leave for a few weeks' vacation, and when I return, I will come back in yet another incarnation.

As Christine.

I am a transsexual sportswriter. It has taken more than 40 years, a million tears and hundreds of hours of soul-wrenching therapy for me to work up the courage to type those words. I realize many readers and colleagues and friends will be shocked to read them.

That's OK. I understand that I am not the only one in transition as I move from Mike to Christine. Everyone who knows me and my work will be transitioning as well. That will take time. And that's all right. To borrow a piece of well-worn sports parlance, we will take it one day at a time.

Transsexualism is a complicated and widely misunderstood medical condition. It is a natural occurrence — unusual, no question, but natural.

Recent studies have shown that such physiological factors as genetics and hormonal fluctuations during pregnancy can significantly affect how our brains are "wired" at birth.

As extensive therapy and testing have confirmed, my brain was wired female.

A transgender friend provided the best and simplest explanation I have heard: We are born with this, we fight it as long as we can, and in the end it wins.

I gave it as good a fight as I possibly could. I went more than 40 hard rounds with it. Eventually, though, you realize you are only fighting yourself and your happiness and your mental health — a no-win situation any way you look at it.

When you reach the point when one gender causes heartache and unbearable discomfort, and the other brings more joy and fulfillment than you ever imagined possible, it shouldn't take two tons of bricks to fall in order to know what to do.

It didn't with me.

With me, all it took was 1.99 tons.

For more years than I care to count, I was scared to death over the prospect of writing a story such as this one. It was the most frightening of all the towering mountains of fear I somehow had to confront and struggle to scale.

How do you go about sharing your most important truth, one you spent a lifetime trying to keep deeply buried, to a world that has grown familiar and comfortable with your façade?

To a world whose knowledge of transsexuals usually begins and ends with Jerry Springer's exploitation circus?

Painfully and reluctantly, I began the coming-out process a few months ago. To my everlasting amazement, friends and colleagues almost universally have been supportive and encouraging, often breaking the tension with good-natured doses of humor.

When I told my boss Randy Harvey, he leaned back in his chair, looked through his office window to scan the newsroom and mused, "Well, no one can ever say we don't have diversity on this staff."

When I told Robert, the soccer-loving lad from Wales who cuts my hair, why I wanted to start growing my hair out, he had to take a seat, blink hard a few times and ask, "Does this mean you don't like football anymore, Mike?"

No, I had to assure him, I still love soccer. I will continue to watch it. I hope to continue to coach it.

My days of playing in men's over-30 rec leagues, however, could be numbered.

When I told Eric, who has played sweeper behind my plodding stopper for more than a decade, he brightly suggested, "Well, you're still good for co-ed!"

I broke the news to Tim by beginning, "Are you familiar with the movie 'Transamerica'?" Tim nodded. "Well, welcome to my life," I said.

Tim seemed more perplexed than most as I nervously launched into my story.

Finally, he had to explain, "I thought you said 'Trainspotting.' I thought you were going to tell me you're a heroin addict."

People have asked if transitioning will affect my writing. And if so, how?

All I can say at this point is that I am now happier, more focused and more energized when I sit behind a keyboard. The wicked writer's block that used to reach up and torture me at some of the worst possible times imaginable has disappeared.

My therapist says this is what happens when a transsexual finally "integrates" and the ever-present white noise in the background dissipates.

That should come as good news to my editors: far fewer blown deadlines.

So now we all will take a short break between bylines. "Mike Penner" is out, "Christine Daniels" soon will be taking its place.

From here, it feels like a big improvement. I hope with time you will agree.

This could be the beginning of a beautiful relationship.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-oldmike26apr26,0,2709943.story?page=1&coll=la-home-headlines

beb30
04-27-2007, 08:57 AM
no comment:help:

Joseph
04-27-2007, 09:21 AM
Why a different last name? Is [s]he still not the child of his/her parents?

MrCinatit
04-27-2007, 09:36 AM
If the dude wants to be a lady, then let the dude be a lady.
No big deal.

15fan
04-27-2007, 09:38 AM
Presents an interesting angle in the debate as to whether women reporters should be allowed in mens' locker rooms.

(And vice versa - male reporters in female locker rooms.)

paintmered
04-27-2007, 09:48 AM
http://worldofwonder.net/image1/southparkmrsgarrsion.jpg

After making light of the situation, I agree with MrCinatit. No big deal.

Unassisted
04-27-2007, 10:09 AM
I used to work with a transsexual. Although I didn't join that workplace until a few years after she had her reassignment surgery.

The people I knew who worked there at the time of the change said the biggest challenge wasn't remembering her new name or seeing her use a different restroom. It was remembering to use the correct pronouns.

cumberlandreds
04-27-2007, 10:37 AM
For some reason the tune of "Dude looks like a Lady" keeps running through my head while reading this. ;)

Redsland
04-27-2007, 10:50 AM
Well, the L.A. Times's coverage of the WNBA and LPGA is about to improve dramatically.

:)

durl
04-27-2007, 10:53 AM
You are what you're DNA says you are. Now on to other things...

savafan
04-27-2007, 12:01 PM
I applaud him/her for standing up and being honest with the world about who he/she is. That couldn't have been easy.

RFS62
04-27-2007, 12:12 PM
I applaud him/her for standing up and being honest with the world about who he/she is.



Well, I can think of one thing she won't be doing standing up any more.

:cool:

Kidding.... just kidding. I fully support her choice. I believe that unless we can joke about it, we haven't fully accepted her into society. Or something like that.

harangatang
04-27-2007, 12:15 PM
I applaud him/her for standing up and being honest with the world about who he/she is. That couldn't have been easy.I agree, this guy has some gonads...well not for much longer.

camisadelgolf
04-27-2007, 12:44 PM
Yeah, that's a great sports article. :confused:

I think he just needs a LiveJournal. ;)

Sea Ray
04-27-2007, 03:40 PM
I applaud him/her for standing up and being honest with the world about who he/she is. That couldn't have been easy.

Who he thinks he is. Unfortunately this article just shows how whacked he is. A simple XY blood test will tell him what sex he is. If he thinks his brain is female that's his problem. I've seen folks on talk shows that will swear up and down they're from Venus. Doesn't mean it's true.

It's a free country. If he wants to mutilate his body and take hormones the rest of his life he can go to it. But it doesn't change his sex and the rest of us are also free to opine that he's misguided.

westofyou
04-27-2007, 03:59 PM
Tim Hardaway could back up some these responses

zombie-a-go-go
04-27-2007, 04:03 PM
Why a different last name? Is [s]he still not the child of his/her parents?

Commonly, after undergoing the procedure, the transgendered individual will change both their first and last name as a symbolic/psychological cutting of ties with their previous identity.

pedro
04-27-2007, 04:08 PM
Commonly, after undergoing the procedure, the transgendered individual will change both their first and last name as a symbolic/psychological cutting of ties with their previous identity.

Although Chris Karl from BP just went with Cristina.

zombie-a-go-go
04-27-2007, 04:11 PM
Although Chris Karl from BP just went with Cristina.

You know, when I initially saw the thread title (on another board) that was who I thought of first, and assumed it was just an old necro'd thread.

Dom Heffner
04-27-2007, 04:38 PM
Who he thinks he is.

And for all intent and purposes, that's as far as one needs to go in these types of decisions, IMHO.

I'm not sure anybody- including the author- is claiming this is actually a woman. I think most people would say this person is living as a woman.

If it takes a load off this guy's mind to do so, you should be happy for him instead of sitting in judgment.


It's a free country. If he wants to mutilate his body and take hormones the rest of his life he can go to it. But it doesn't change his sex and the rest of us are also free to opine that he's misguided.

If it makes you feel better to toss some stones at somebody like this, you are right, can go to it, too.

But in comparison, he comes out looking better than what you are displaying here.

zombie-a-go-go
04-27-2007, 04:44 PM
If it takes a load off this guy's mind to do so, you should be happy for him instead of sitting in judgment.


Genuinely improving one's lot in life requires hard work, determination, and a little bit of luck. Denigrating someone else in order to make one feel better about their lot in life, we see, is much easier.

Oh, and... "she," not "he," Dom. :)

TeamSelig
04-27-2007, 05:12 PM
wow you guys crack me up lol I was going to try to slide in some sarcastic joke but it looks like you guys got them all haha

pedro
04-27-2007, 06:07 PM
Changing teams

by Christina Kahrl

The news that LA Times columnist Mike Penner will be making the transition to Christine Daniels is a welcome development, not just for the transsexual community, but for sports. It serves as an another example of the tremendous progress being made by transsexuals, not merely as a matter of their own self-acceptance, but out in the wider world.

In my talking with her about her transition in the weeks leading up to today’s announcement, I counseled her that my experience was that the sports world didn’t go off the rails when I transitioned in 2003. Why? Because sports is the ultimate American social bridge, and what I’ve found is that it serves as a topic that transcends lines of race, gender, class, and culture. Americans love to talk about sports, and if they find a writer or commentator with something interesting to say on the subject, they’re going to listen, or maybe argue–but most of all, they’ll engage. I learned–happily–that the readers of my column and the books that I’ve worked on couldn’t care less whether or not I’m a transsexual. Better still, I found that my colleagues still value my insights, analysis, and opinions–I could not ask for a better collection of teammates. And I’ve learned that my fellow figures in the media still make a place for me in the Fourth Estate. So, in the same way that Mike Penner’s columns have been a must-read for the Times‘ audience for years, so too will Christine Daniels’.

Christine deserves the highest praise for her courage, and my fondest wishes for her success as she transitions. The Times should also be commended for their thoughtful and supportive actions in working with Christine through the most challenging part of a transsexual’s life. It serves as further proof that the country in which we live is achieving great things on small stages, as acceptance becomes the norm and no longer the exception.

Christina Kahrl
Managing Editor, BaseballProspectus.com

TC81190
04-27-2007, 06:34 PM
Who he thinks he is. Unfortunately this article just shows how whacked he is. A simple XY blood test will tell him what sex he is. If he thinks his brain is female that's his problem. I've seen folks on talk shows that will swear up and down they're from Venus. Doesn't mean it's true.

It's a free country. If he wants to mutilate his body and take hormones the rest of his life he can go to it. But it doesn't change his sex and the rest of us are also free to opine that he's misguided.


I agree with this.

Sea Ray
04-27-2007, 07:06 PM
I agree with this.

You must not have caught that I was "throwing stones in order to make me feel better." :rolleyes:

zombielady
04-27-2007, 08:23 PM
Yeah, that's a great sports article. :confused:

I think he just needs a LiveJournal. ;)

Hey.. I have a LiveJournal! :thumbup:

savafan
04-27-2007, 08:51 PM
For the record, saw her on the news tonight, and she doesn't look too bad as a woman.

Don't read too much into that!

dman
04-27-2007, 08:52 PM
The Old Adventures Of New Christine????? Sounds like a spoof of that show that Julia Louis Dreyfus plays in.

CrackerJack
04-27-2007, 10:26 PM
she doesn't look too bad as a woman.


:drink:

RedFanAlways1966
04-27-2007, 10:33 PM
The Old Adventures Of New Christine????? Sounds like a spoof of that show that Julia Louis Dreyfus plays in.

http://www.anderewelten.de/images/Christine.jpg

Sounds scary to me!! :)

RedFanAlways1966
04-27-2007, 10:55 PM
Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is one of the most famous phrases in the United States Declaration of Independence.

Written hundreds of years ago, but something that all American citizens should believe. If this change makes the writer of the article happy, then more power to him/her. Being allowed to do as you legally please is one of the main reasons this country was founded. And it includes the three things above. It might not make you happy, but your right to be happy in regard to someone else's choice is not important. You will soon get over it, the writer of the article would not if not for the change.

WMR
04-27-2007, 10:57 PM
That's not a woman, THAT'S A MAN, BABY!!

http://www.maskworld.com/pix/teeth/character/3000-austin-powers.jpg

RedsManRick
04-28-2007, 10:47 AM
He isn't claiming that he actually has female DNA. Geez. He's claiming that he identifies as a female; he wants society to associate those things it is associates with being a woman, with him. Fact is that society ascribes a whole bunch of things to you based on the gender identity you present to the world.

He feels more comfortable as a women. Next time you casually say "hey man" to some guy you know, ask yourself if you've even seen his penis or tested his DNA. Because if you haven't, you're only going off of some rudimentary physical traits and, more importantly, the identity he is presenting.

This sportswriter has been presenting an identity he is not comfortable for the sake of making society feel comfortable. Now that he's willing to put himself first, he's simply explaining the scenario.

You can choose to call him whatever you want. That's your choice. You can be a jerk underneath the surface (you can't help it, you were born with jerk DNA) and pass it off to the world as your enlightened benevolence. Likewise he can choose how he'd like to present himself. I hope you'd give him the same freedom.

westofyou
04-28-2007, 10:53 AM
You can choose to call him whatever you want. That's your choice. You can be a jerk underneath the surface (you can't help it, you were born with jerk DNA) and pass it off to the world as your enlightened benevolence.

Yeah!!

http://www.thescoopydoop.com/pictures/fairgame_1.jpg

Sea Ray
04-28-2007, 11:09 AM
He isn't claiming that he actually has female DNA. Geez. He's claiming that he identifies as a female; he wants society to associate those things it is associates with being a woman, with him. Fact is that society ascribes a whole bunch of things to you based on the gender identity you present to the world.




Actually I wouldn't know female DNA if I had a test tube full of it so I am sure DNA is the furthest thing from his mind.

The fact of life is we are all made one of two ways...female or male. You can be disappointed with how you're made. You can dress differently, have surgeries to remove otherwise healthy organs. You can take hormone medications when you are otherwise perfectly healthy. You can ask people to address you with another gender pronoun. But what you haven't done is change your sex. You're still what the Lord made you. To pretend otherwise is just that.

If I'm his health insurance co I drop him. If he wants to abuse his otherwise healthy body with this sort of treatment, he should be responsible for the consequences.

Ltlabner
04-28-2007, 11:14 AM
This sportswriter has been presenting an identity he is not comfortable for the sake of making society feel comfortable. Now that he's willing to put himself first, he's simply explaining the scenario.

I'd argue that he is making the change to make himself more comfortable in society rather than the other way round.

But besides that, who cares what he, now she, does along these lines? I don't necessarly agree with it, and would certinally not choose that action for myself, however, his actions have less than zero impact on my life. Why would I even care enough to get riled up by it?

Good luck to him. I'm sure such a change is difficult on many levels. Hope it brings him the happyness he seeks.

Dom Heffner
04-28-2007, 12:36 PM
But what you haven't done is change your sex.

Again, I'm not so sure he believes this at the scientific level as you are stating.

I still call the sportswriter "he," because I agree with you on this point.

And while this may be true, I don't feel it necessary to say he is mutilating himself or that he is misguided or whacked.


You're still what the Lord made you.

And if the Lord made his brain so that it makes him think he is a woman, it sounds like God would be fine with this man's decision. Responsibility works both ways, and no one knows this better than the Creator of all things, one would think.


To pretend otherwise is just that.

We all pretend in some ways. Read Machiavelli sometime. Pretending is a terrific coping mechanism and it can give us a sense of purpose.

To think that one is being truhful with one's self at all times would be the ultimate game of pretend.


If I'm his health insurance co I drop him.

And if this were the year 1547, he'd be fed to the lions.

If the worse thing that happens to him is he gets dropped by his insurance company, then we've come a long way.

Look- on some level, I think we are with you in saying that this is a bit weird. I'll bet the sportswriter would even agree with you. It's weird because it doesn't happen to even a percent of the population probably.

He's an outlier to say the least.

And if I'm standing under the bell curve, I feel lucky for myself and sympathy over disdain for this guy.

When you look at the big picture, for every so many human beings that are born, this occurs, and we are staring at one of these occurrances. If he were a murderer or a child molester, we wouldn't stand for it, no matter how many times these outliers show their ugly head.

But this guy wants to be known as a woman. It doesn't affect any of us. If he wants to struggle to put his pantyhose on every day rather than boxer briefs, I just don't care.

He'll tell you it's weird, I'm sure, which makes it even more courageous that he could face a world filled with people who will make fun of him and look at him differently.

We should look at the courage displayed here and realize that there is nothing we should be afraid of in our own lives. If some dude can walk around in a dress, what could I do if I let my inhibitions go?

I haven't taken one-tenth of a percent of the risk this man is taking in my entire life combined.

I wish this man would have done this when I was in the fourth grade, because he would have inspired me to walk right up to Paula Carter and tell her she was the hottest thing going at Clough Pike Elementary School instead of leaving an anonymous note on her desk. :)

I guess my point is this: The world is filled with things we don't understand or don't agree with, and it feels a lot better to just accept that and move on, and maybe even draw some inspiration for our own lives rather than ridiculing somebody.

This guy is an easy target, and I think we all look better if we restrain ourselves rather than letting him have it, even though we have every right to. In fact, it's because we have every right (by this I mean free speech, not that he deserves it) to lay it on him that we look even better when we don't.

Degenerate39
04-28-2007, 01:31 PM
That was not worth reading.

KittyDuran
04-28-2007, 01:37 PM
Well, darn it Dom... already given you rep points this week (for TB) - and then you post that gem! :beerme: :)

KittyDuran
04-28-2007, 01:38 PM
That was not worth reading.The original article, all the posts after, or just Dom's last response? :confused:

TeamCasey
04-28-2007, 01:48 PM
I don't think a lot is known about gender dysphoria. It has nothing to do with sex or homosexuality, it's has everything to do with gender. I suspect it is very much tied to hormones and genetics.

KittyDuran
04-28-2007, 01:55 PM
You know, when I initially saw the thread title (on another board) that was who I thought of first, and assumed it was just an old necro'd thread.I thought that as well... of course I thought Chris was short for Christina (not a far stretch when I'm a female baseball fan).:)

KittyDuran
04-28-2007, 01:58 PM
For the record, saw her on the news tonight, and she doesn't look too bad as a woman.

Don't read too much into that!Are we talking about Christina or Christine? If you're talking about Christina, no she doesn't-there is a pic of her after the BP article on the website.

savafan
04-28-2007, 02:13 PM
Are we talking about Christina or Christine? If you're talking about Christina, no she doesn't-there is a pic of her after the BP article on the website.

I am referring to Christine. She was on CBS News last night.

savafan
04-28-2007, 02:19 PM
The fact of life is we are all made one of two ways...female or male.

Nothing in life is as black and white as you would like to think, not even this. We are all made in a multitude of different ways. Some of us are born with missing limbs, autism, mental retardation, homosexual, straight, elephantitis, high IQ, low IQ, heart conditions, skin disorders, sociopaths, psychopaths, etc. Science, biology, the human brain, none of it is as discriminatory as either choice A or choice B in any area of a person's life. There is no such thing as a "normal" person, because who is to determine what is normal? If only normal people have a say about what is "normal", then that is already a discriminatory statement.

Degenerate39
04-28-2007, 02:24 PM
The original article, all the posts after, or just Dom's last response? :confused:

The original article.

KittyDuran
04-28-2007, 03:20 PM
The original article.But it made ya look! :eek: ;)

GAC
04-29-2007, 07:59 AM
If and when he/she starts dating, will they be forward and upfront and let that person know? Should they? I'm simply asking that relevant socialogical question to protect guys like Puffy. :mooner:

It's obvious that there is a "disorder" involved. But the causes of transsexualism are unknown. Some try to state it is a medical condition, and not a psychological one; but there is no definitive scientific evidence, as of yet, to validate that claim. It's not genetic, because the DNA says otherwise. So it is basically falls under the classified as a psychological disorder ("of the mind"), involving Dysphoria (mood), which can also be chemically induced.

And there are also other varying factors involved too. Such as developmental (childhood) and environment. But to claim that someone was "born that way" or even somehow God screwed up and placed them in the wrong body is stretching the factual data to date.

"There is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation, according to a medical review conducted exclusively for Guardian Weekend tomorrow. The review of more than 100 international medical studies of post-operative transsexuals by the University of Birmingham's aggressive research intelligence facility (Arif) found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective."

http://society.guardian.co.uk/mentalhealth/story/0,8150,1272093,00.html

But I've always felt I was a 5-tool ballplayer born in the wrong body. :mooner:

Sea Ray
04-29-2007, 01:20 PM
Nothing in life is as black and white as you would like to think, not even this. We are all made in a multitude of different ways. Some of us are born with missing limbs, autism, mental retardation, homosexual, straight, elephantitis, high IQ, low IQ, heart conditions, skin disorders, sociopaths, psychopaths, etc. Science, biology, the human brain, none of it is as discriminatory as either choice A or choice B in any area of a person's life. There is no such thing as a "normal" person, because who is to determine what is normal? If only normal people have a say about what is "normal", then that is already a discriminatory statement.

Wonderful. We're now at a point where anything can be debated. Nowadays people argue as to whether marriage is between a man and a woman, whether Saddam Hussein is more of a villian than George Bush and now we argue the point that people are born either male or female.

With all the bloviating you spewed above, you missed the only exception to M/F being a black and white issue. There are some disorders where people are born with screwed up sex genes, such as XXY or XYY but I've heard nothing about that being the case here.

Assuming you are born with two sex Chromosomes (be it X or Y) you are who you are, end of story, debate. You can argue a lot in life, but this is not one of them. You can't argue facts.

Sea Ray
04-29-2007, 01:23 PM
If and when he/she starts dating, will they be forward and upfront and let that person know? Should they? I'm simply asking that relevant socialogical question to protect guys like Puffy. :mooner:

It's obvious that there is a "disorder" involved. But the causes of transsexualism are unknown. Some try to state it is a medical condition, and not a psychological one; but there is no definitive scientific evidence, as of yet, to validate that claim. It's not genetic, because the DNA says otherwise. So it is basically falls under the classified as a psychological disorder ("of the mind"), involving Dysphoria (mood), which can also be chemically induced.

And there are also other varying factors involved too. Such as developmental (childhood) and environment. But to claim that someone was "born that way" or even somehow God screwed up and placed them in the wrong body is stretching the factual data to date.

"There is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation, according to a medical review conducted exclusively for Guardian Weekend tomorrow. The review of more than 100 international medical studies of post-operative transsexuals by the University of Birmingham's aggressive research intelligence facility (Arif) found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective."

http://society.guardian.co.uk/mentalhealth/story/0,8150,1272093,00.html

But I've always felt I was a 5-tool ballplayer born in the wrong body. :mooner:


Your post trumps the much ballyhooed one by Dom, bigtime. Why? Because it includes facts. Good one...

KittyDuran
04-29-2007, 01:45 PM
Wonderful. We're now at a point where anything can be debated. Nowadays people argue as to whether marriage is between a man and a woman, whether Saddam Hussein is more of a villian than George Bush and now we argue the point that people are born either male or female.

With all the bloviating you spewed above, you missed the only exception to M/F being a black and white issue. There are some disorders where people are born with screwed up sex genes, such as XXY or XYY but I've heard nothing about that being the case here.

Assuming you are born with two sex Chromosomes (be it X or Y) you are who you are, end of story, debate. You can argue a lot in life, but this is not one of them. You can't argue facts.Speaking for my own family... when things concerning people were put into the "black and white" box - it would end up biting them in the rear with irreversible consequences. Of course, passing judgement from afar is so much easier...:)

Yachtzee
04-29-2007, 04:21 PM
If and when he/she starts dating, will they be forward and upfront and let that person know? Should they? I'm simply asking that relevant socialogical question to protect guys like Puffy. :mooner:

It's obvious that there is a "disorder" involved. But the causes of transsexualism are unknown. Some try to state it is a medical condition, and not a psychological one; but there is no definitive scientific evidence, as of yet, to validate that claim. It's not genetic, because the DNA says otherwise. So it is basically falls under the classified as a psychological disorder ("of the mind"), involving Dysphoria (mood), which can also be chemically induced.

And there are also other varying factors involved too. Such as developmental (childhood) and environment. But to claim that someone was "born that way" or even somehow God screwed up and placed them in the wrong body is stretching the factual data to date.

"There is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation, according to a medical review conducted exclusively for Guardian Weekend tomorrow. The review of more than 100 international medical studies of post-operative transsexuals by the University of Birmingham's aggressive research intelligence facility (Arif) found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective."

http://society.guardian.co.uk/mentalhealth/story/0,8150,1272093,00.html

But I've always felt I was a 5-tool ballplayer born in the wrong body. :mooner:

I think that if that person wants a healthy relationship, they'll be open about they're "situation." However, as Mike Penner/Christine Daniels has already announced his/her decision in the LA Times, I don't think there's any intent to hide things.

I don't know what causes one to want to do the transgender thing. I think you raise some valid points for debate on the issue, GAC. However, whether iit's a medical or a psychological condition, I think that we should respect that person and how they wish to identify themselves, even if we might think its "weird."

savafan
04-29-2007, 04:26 PM
However, whether iit's a medical or a psychological condition, I think that we should respect that person and how they wish to identify themselves, even if we might think its "weird."

Exactly, who are we to judge what's weird? I like cinnamon, peanut butter, and maple syrup on toast. To some people, that's "weird", but to me, that's just who I am.

Sea Ray
04-29-2007, 05:44 PM
Sounds like we've come to a consensus.

1) It's a free country. To each his own.

2) Let's hope this helps this particular person

3) His sex will not change

Dom Heffner
04-29-2007, 05:59 PM
Your post trumps the much ballyhooed one by Dom, bigtime. Why? Because it includes facts. Good one...

Not sure you read what I wrote.

I said the dude is still a guy- we agree.

I just said that if he wants to wear panties instead of underwear, I'm not getting mine in a wad.

If this is a mental disorder, I find no fun in calling him "whacked," just because I'm one of the 99% of people that don't have to worry about it.

Obviously the guy has some mental problems- he would tell you himself this is not normal.

If your grandmother had Alzheimer's, would you call her whacked? Misguided?

Why you are trying to turn this into some scientific debate is beyond me.

To walk around as a different gender than what you are born as takes courage, and I merely pointed that out.

And if you want to take a cheap shot at me for defending the guy, I'm proud to take it.

Sea Ray
04-29-2007, 06:39 PM
And if you want to take a cheap shot at me for defending the guy, I'm proud to take it.

No worry. I will not take any cheap shots at you. That would serve no purpose.

GAC
04-29-2007, 08:35 PM
I don't know what causes one to want to do the transgender thing. I think you raise some valid points for debate on the issue, GAC. However, whether iit's a medical or a psychological condition, I think that we should respect that person and how they wish to identify themselves, even if we might think its "weird."

I wholeheartedly agree Yachtzee. That individual obviously has enough problems as it is without someone maliciously pointing the finger at them and condemning them. And I'm referring to acceptance on a societal level. Because lets be honest - and this reminds me of the old Woody Allen movie "Everything You always Wanted To Know About Sex", and that bit on a cross dresser - we may say "to each his own", but we still feel it is an aberration and not normal behavior. Society will even say that person is not right in their mind, and because why? It goes against the natural order.

Ltlabner
04-29-2007, 08:38 PM
when things concerning people were put into the "black and white" box -

As I get older I'm learning more and more I can not controll situations by simply tossing ideas in a "black and white" box. There are far fewer issues that are B/W than I used to think even just several years ago. It was comforting just to wrap everything up in a tidy little box and move on without real consideration of all the various aspects of a situation.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that "nothing is wrong" or that we should analyize a situation to death, I'm just realizing that there's a lot more grey in life that I first wanted to admit.

Sea Ray
04-29-2007, 10:46 PM
As I get older I'm learning more and more I can not controll situations by simply tossing ideas in a "black and white" box. There are far fewer issues that are B/W than I used to think even just several years ago. It was comforting just to wrap everything up in a tidy little box and move on without real consideration of all the various aspects of a situation.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that "nothing is wrong" or that we should analyize a situation to death, I'm just realizing that there's a lot more grey in life that I first wanted to admit.

Consider me another resident "traditionalist" on this board. I believe in right vs wrong, good vs evil and fact vs fiction. Today's culture makes a lot of things more complicated than they really are in that they like to paint nearly everything gray.


Society will even say that person is not right in their mind, and because why? It goes against the natural order.

I don't know what the societal norm is anymore. Society of this generation accepts a lot more than societies ever did for thousands of years and I think rather than improving things it has merely clouded them.

The natural order has been time tested and that's how it came to be. It still works most of the time.

savafan
04-30-2007, 12:11 AM
I don't know what the societal norm is anymore. Society of this generation accepts a lot more than societies ever did for thousands of years and I think rather than improving things it has merely clouded them.


I'd say that previous societies throughout history accepted way more than we do today. It only seems that way to us because we're a relatively young society coming from a puritan background.

GAC
04-30-2007, 08:24 AM
I'm just realizing that there's a lot more grey in life that I first wanted to admit.

Just For Men gets rid of the grey. :mooner:

registerthis
04-30-2007, 09:52 AM
Consider me another resident "traditionalist" on this board. I believe in right vs wrong, good vs evil and fact vs fiction. Today's culture makes a lot of things more complicated than they really are in that they like to paint nearly everything gray.

Or, as our society progresses onwards, we come to understand that things we used to think of as clear-cut issues aren't that quite so much. Minorities aren't inferior to whites, women should vote and have the same opportunities as men, homosexuals shouldn't be discriminated against simply because of whom they sleep with, etc.

Understanding and tolerance are good things and should be embraced, not fought against. That's not to say some things aren't still "wrong" or "bad", but when it comes to issues of morality and personal choice, the one thing we're doing better with overall is a societal understanding that the rightness or wrongness of an issue isn't quite so "black and white." Even if there are a few people who have yet to get on that bus...

Sea Ray
04-30-2007, 10:16 AM
That's not to say some things aren't still "wrong" or "bad", but when it comes to issues of morality and personal choice, the one thing we're doing better with overall is a societal understanding that the rightness or wrongness of an issue isn't quite so "black and white." Even if there are a few people who have yet to get on that bus...


I'd say there are very few who are not on board with women voting and equal rights for every citizen. In fact those are black and white issues. You make my point.

zombielady
04-30-2007, 10:24 AM
Just For Men gets rid of the grey. :mooner:

Mr. Connine can attest to that!:evil:

TeamCasey
04-30-2007, 12:29 PM
I'd say there are very few who are not on board with women voting and equal rights for every citizen. In fact those are black and white issues. You make my point.

Are you saying it was always that way?

registerthis
04-30-2007, 12:37 PM
I'd say there are very few who are not on board with women voting and equal rights for every citizen. In fact those are black and white issues. You make my point.

With regards to making points, I think you completely missed mine.

Of course today we see such things as equal rights for minorities as a "clear cut, black and white" issue. No one, you argue, can honestly be against such things without being a racist or bigot.

But how quickly we forget that such a belief was not always the case. How quickly we forget that written into the very document that sets forth the rights of the citizens of this country was an amendment which classified blacks as sub-human. How quickly we forget that barely 40 years ago people staged violent protests to prevent the integration of public schools--believing (correctly, in their minds) of the inherent inferiority of blacks to whites.

How quickly we forget that jobs used to be denied to people based solely upon their race, or their gender, or their sexual orientation. This isn't ancient history--many of these things took place in our or our parent's lifetimes.

Society marches ever onwards, to the consternation of some. And as I said, respect and tolerance are good things to have, even when it has to do with traits or practices that we don't understand.

westofyou
04-30-2007, 12:40 PM
Society marches ever onwards, to the consternation of some. And as I said, respect and tolerance are good things to have, even when it has to do with traits or practices that we don't understand.

http://www3.whdh.com/images/news_articles/389x205/070214_tim_hardaway.jpg

KoryMac5
04-30-2007, 01:07 PM
As a social worker I feel it is my duty to provide some knowledge on the subject of the Transgender. Perhaps through this knowledge some posters replying to this thread will show some tolerance.

Definition of Transgender: Transexuals are defined as people who find their gender identity -- their sense of themselves as male or female -- in conflict with their anatomical sex. Some transexuals may live part-time in their self-defined gender. Many desire to live fully in their self-identified gender. Some undergo hormone therapy and sex reassignment surgery.

Just for a second imagine that you are living a lie, trapped in someone elses body or mind. Never fully realizing your potential and always too scared to realize that you are not whom you seem to be. You are stressed at work and at home. You are deppressed and no doctor can give you answers, because you know deep down inside what the answer is. How do I tell my wife, my family, friends. What will their reactions be. All these questions go through ones minds until finally the day comes when it is time to make that crucial decision and get on with life. Transgenders go through this hell everday until they finally admit to who they are.

Treatments Hormone therapy: which contrary to popular belief insurance companies will not cover due to the fact that it is an elective procedure not a necessity.

Surgeries: cost can range from 7,000 to 15,000 for female to male from 40,000 to 70,000 for male to female and again it is an elective surgery

What to call them: What they feel most comfortable being called, they will tell you.

Bathroom: Shouldn't you be more interested in getting out of the bathroom than who has a penis and a vagina? Really I have more important things to do like type on Redszone while working.

In closing here is a copy of an anology which might help people understand a bit better:"There's an imbalance in the brain, and prozac helps people to feel a sense of balance: it relieves the imbalance. Hormone therapy can do the same thing for a transgender person. The stress and turmoil of this imbalance in a person can be like poison. Producing testosterone because you have testicles producing male hormones creates tension."

Knowledge leads to tolerance which hopefully will lead to a more understanding society.

RedsManRick
04-30-2007, 01:22 PM
I'd say there are very few who are not on board with women voting and equal rights for every citizen. In fact those are black and white issues. You make my point.

100 years ago this was not a black and white issue in any way, shape, or form.

remdog
04-30-2007, 01:34 PM
If and when he/she starts dating, will they be forward and upfront and let that person know? Should they?

I've been on the road for a few days so I'm sort of 'late to the party' on all of the things that happened over the weekend but, relative to Mike/Christine, my understanding is that she is already married (to another LA Times staffer). As to whether or not they have any children or what their relationship is at this time, I have no knowledge.

Were she single and dating, should she let the other person know? From my perspective, if this is just a 'one-time movies and popcorn thing', then it's her call. If it's going to go further then, IMO, that needs to be part of all the things that need to be said to foster trust, loyalty, caring and all of the other bonds that establish a long-term relationship for both people.

Rem

Sea Ray
04-30-2007, 02:41 PM
Are you saying it was always that way?

Not at all.

Are you saying these issues were not heavily debated 230 years ago? This was not a black/white issue at our country's inception. Our founding fathers struggled with this and thanks to our wonderful system, this wrong was righted. After much debate it was decided that the southern states would not agree to a Constitution giving equal rights to blacks or women. The 14th Amendment changed that and granted equal rights to both women and people of any race.

No one is saying that there are no wrongs that need to be righted. That's why we have a Legislative and Judicial branch of government.

M2
04-30-2007, 03:33 PM
I'd say that previous societies throughout history accepted way more than we do today. It only seems that way to us because we're a relatively young society coming from a puritan background.

Bingo.