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View Full Version : Why didn't Narron bench Dunn?



howyoufreelin
04-27-2007, 09:31 PM
For someone who supposedly absolutely does not put up with lack of hustle, what-so-ever, he didn't show it in the bottom of the fifth. Ground ball single by Jack Wilson, and Dunn literally walks over to the ball, slowly bends down to pick it up, looks up and Wilson had already stolen second base from him. Absolutely inexcusable. My only question why wasn't he benched?

Was it because he's putting up good stats and we can't afford to have him out of a line-up? Oh wait...he looks as terrible at the plate then I have ever seen him.

Just a question I was pondering during the game tonight.

reds44
04-27-2007, 09:33 PM
Because he is Narron.

Redlegs
04-27-2007, 09:35 PM
If he were to bench Dunn, he'd wait until the half inning is over. You don't show a player up by taking him out in the middle of an inning.

Ahhhorsepoo
04-27-2007, 09:36 PM
It's Dunn, and half of the fools in the world who like thereds actually think he is worth something more than Chris Denorfia.. or Deangelo Jimenez..

dougdirt
04-27-2007, 09:37 PM
It's Dunn, and half of the fools in the world who like thereds actually think he is worth something more than Chris Denorfia.. or Deangelo Jimenez..

He is worth more than those guys.

howyoufreelin
04-27-2007, 09:37 PM
If he were to bench Dunn, he'd wait until the half inning is over. You don't show a player up by taking him out in the middle of an inning.

He already made himself look like an idiot on the play. If you're truly going to show the team that you demand 'hustle', then I don't see any harm in it.

But that's just me.

Redlegs
04-27-2007, 09:44 PM
He already made himself look like an idiot on the play. If you're truly going to show the team that you demand 'hustle', then I don't see any harm in it.

But that's just me.
I disagree. You don't show a player up like that. That's a good way to lose your team under the fine line of discipline.

Ahhhorsepoo
04-27-2007, 09:48 PM
He is worth more than those guys.

You are right.. maybe a felipe lopez, or a Jason Larue..

CTA513
04-27-2007, 09:50 PM
Benching Dunn for that would be assuming that all players are treated the same.

Degenerate39
04-27-2007, 09:51 PM
It didn't take long for this thread to pop up.

Matt700wlw
04-27-2007, 09:51 PM
Because it's lip service. That's all it is.

mth123
04-27-2007, 10:09 PM
Maybe Narron is desperate for a win and knows he needs Dunn in there.

Matt700wlw
04-27-2007, 10:09 PM
Maybe Narron is desperate for a win and knows he needs Dunn in there.

He's contributing in what way right now?

guttle11
04-27-2007, 10:10 PM
Narron stinks. We know. Let's move on.

howyoufreelin
04-27-2007, 10:11 PM
He's contributing in what way right now?

The 400 K's in 23 games is sure is helping us.

mth123
04-27-2007, 10:13 PM
He's contributing in what way right now?

He's still a big power threat. Maybe if Griffey was well he could be taken out. Who you gonna put in there? Hopper?

Matt700wlw
04-27-2007, 10:14 PM
He's still a big power threat. Maybe if Griffey was well he could be taken out. Who you gonna put in there? Hopper?

I'll do it ;)


And they wouldn't have to pay me! :D

RedFanAlways1966
04-27-2007, 10:36 PM
Maybe Narron knew Dunn would hit a HR tonight?

KronoRed
04-27-2007, 10:43 PM
He's contributing in what way right now?

Only real power thread on the team right now? oh wait..power is overrated :evil:

Matt700wlw
04-27-2007, 10:43 PM
Narron looks like a genius now, doesn't he?

:evil:

dsmith421
04-27-2007, 10:44 PM
Because Narron's completely full of crap.

KronoRed
04-27-2007, 10:45 PM
Narron logic = Moving Dunn down = HR

Result, Dunn will bat 9th ;)

RFS62
04-27-2007, 11:05 PM
Thinking that ANY manager treats all the players the same is incredibly naive.

No matter what he says.

traderumor
04-28-2007, 12:55 AM
But what do you say to EE? Dunn has to be pulled there based on all the media attention the move got last time. Now, Narron looks like a fool with an axe to grind against a promising young player.

CTA513
04-28-2007, 01:00 AM
From John Fays blog:


Speaking of Dunn, I heard his play, or lack thereof, is already a topic on Extra Innings. At the behest of the poster, I asked Jerry Narron about it after the game. (Would have done it on my own, by thanks for the suggestion) Anyway, in the fifth, Jack Wilson hit a ball into left. Wilson broke out of the box like he was going to settle for a single. Dunn chased the ball in the same manner. Wilson realized that and broke for second. He was safe for a double.

“Great hustle play by Wilson,” Narron said.

And Dunn?

“We’d all love for him to be a Gold Glove left fielder. He’s not quite there yet,” Narron said.

A lot of people would probably like to have seen Dunn benched. Two reasons not to do it are: a) Norris Hopper's not going to hit one in the river in the ninth; b) Dunn played the ball the way most left fielders do.

But the moment Narron benched, Edwin Encarnacion for not running out that ball in Arizona, he opened himself to talk about this every time there's a play like the Wilson-Dunn play.

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/redsinsider/





From C. Trent Rosecrans blog:

Also: Jerry on Dunn's play in the bottom of the fifth: "It was a great hustle play by Jack Wilson. Dunn gives us good effort in left field. We'd love to see him be a Gold Glover, but he's not quite there yet."

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/spring/

WMR
04-28-2007, 01:11 AM
Those quotes by CTA show just what a talk-out-of-both-sides-of-his-mouth, lip-service-paying, dummy Narron truly is.

Why open your big stupid mouth about hustling at all?

He's a huge, dumb boob and I can't wait till he's fired from this organization.

Will
04-28-2007, 01:11 AM
Maybe it's just me but it seems that a few Reds players just don't have their heads in the game at different times. Whether it's EE not knowing where his pop up went or Junior Home Run trotting a long single, at different times they just seem to be going through the motions instead of playing with intensity. Dunn just adds to the equation with the play on Wilson's single/double.
Maybe Narron does need to make some tough choices to wake this team up. Remember the great line from "Remember The Titans" ?
Attitude Reflect Leadership !

WMR
04-28-2007, 01:13 AM
By the way, nice strawman, Jerry. Do you really think you can play us all for being as dumb as you are and get us to buy that idiotic statement about Dunn not being a gold-glove left-fielder as if that has anything to do with the issue at hand!? :rant:

UGADaddy
04-28-2007, 01:16 AM
He's still a big power threat. Maybe if Griffey was well he could be taken out. Who you gonna put in there? Hopper?

Threat? Who wants a "threat" in the lineup. I want results. And AD isn't giving it to us. I might put Hopper in as a statement to Dunn and anyone else who thinks they're too good to hustle to a grounder in the OF. When Griffey gets back, I'd like to see Dunn sat down for a few games. Of course, that would mean that Freel would have to stay in the OF and EdE will have to keep stinking it up in the middle of the order. Man this team is in trouble...

flyer85
04-28-2007, 01:43 AM
A really absurd question unless one is naive enough to believe that the same set of rules applies to everybody.

flyer85
04-28-2007, 01:46 AM
But the moment Narron benched, Edwin Encarnacion for not running out that ball in Arizona, he opened himself to talk about this every time there's a play like the Wilson-Dunn play.which is why the smart thing was to handle it privately and sit EE the next day if Narron felt a benching was in order. Because now Narron gets questions every time someone doesn't hustle(like BP in his HR trot triple last week or Dunn tonight). Narron did it to himself.

WVRedsFan
04-28-2007, 02:15 AM
which is why the smart thing was to handle it privately and sit EE the next day if Narron felt a benching was in order. Because now Narron gets questions every time someone doesn't hustle(like BP in his HR trot triple last week or Dunn tonight). Narron did it to himself.

Yes, he did. Everyone knows that certain players get preferential treatment. Take Eric Milton for example. The fact that he makes $9 million gives him a start every 5 days.

I contend and have said this before, but Jerry Narron signed his own walking papers the day he benched and embarrassed Edwin. He made statements that were really stupid and then, like most blowhards, forgot he ever did it. The rest of the world is waiting for him to do it again , and he won't. I imagine, though I doubt the Reds media would report it if it was, that did more for clubhouse dissention than when Miley took away Junior and Dunn's easy chairs. Narron is a short-timer.

WVRedsFan
04-28-2007, 02:15 AM
nm

RFS62
04-28-2007, 08:22 AM
For those of you who didn't like the way Narron treated EE, what would you want him to do now with Dunn?

If you were Narron, would you have pulled Dunn right then and there? Would you have waited until the half-inning was over and pulled him then?

Would you have pulled him at all?

mth123
04-28-2007, 08:58 AM
I wouldn't have pulled him at all.

1. Need his bat.
2. Don't need to advertise a possible attitude problem even if one does exist.
3. If the EE benching didn;t get through, its doubtful more benchings will.

I think this was just a brain fade more than it was laziness. So was EE's and I wouldn't have pulled him either.

RFS62
04-28-2007, 09:08 AM
I wouldn't have pulled him at all.

1. Need his bat.
2. Don't need to advertise a possible attitude problem even if one does exist.
3. If the EE benching didn;t get through, its doubtful more benchings will.

I think this was just a brain fade more than it was laziness. So was EE's and I wouldn't have pulled him either.


A "brain fart" maybe, but maybe also indicitive of not really having your head in the game. Maybe that's the same thing, I don't know.

I think Narron is a relatively inexperienced manager who has made and will continue to make all the basic mistakes a manager makes when he's learning his craft.

Maybe Krivsky should have pulled Narron for the rest of the game when he didn't pull Dunn, eh? Of course not, but it would have caused rejoicing and dancing in the streets of RedsZone if he had.

I'll bet Narron wishes he had dealt with Eddie in a different, less public way, now that he's had to deal with the after effects and public scrutiny.

But he didn't. He did what he thought was right at the time, and he's paying a price now that the lynch mobs have one more thing to gripe about.

These things used to be handled by a "kangaroo court", presided over by the veteran leadership in the clubhouse. You know, that "veteran leadership" that everyone loves to ridicule here. It's sorely lacking in the Reds clubhouse.

The manager shouldn't have to do anything about this. Greg Vaughn or Frank Robinson would tune up both of these guys behind closed doors in a perfect world... oh wait, we don't have anyone even remotely resembling either of those guys here. But that's right, we don't need that quality. It's not measurable, so it can't be important.

mth123
04-28-2007, 09:37 AM
A "brain fart" maybe, but maybe also indicitive of not really having your head in the game. Maybe that's the same thing, I don't know.

I think Narron is a relatively inexperienced manager who has made and will continue to make all the basic mistakes a manager makes when he's learning his craft.

Maybe Krivsky should have pulled Narron for the rest of the game when he didn't pull Dunn, eh? Of course not, but it would have caused rejoicing and dancing in the streets of RedsZone if he had.

I'll bet Narron wishes he had dealt with Eddie in a different, less public way, now that he's had to deal with the after effects and public scrutiny.

But he didn't. He did what he thought was right at the time, and he's paying a price now that the lynch mobs have one more thing to gripe about.

These things used to be handled by a "kangaroo court", presided over by the veteran leadership in the clubhouse. You know, that "veteran leadership" that everyone loves to ridicule here. It's sorely lacking in the Reds clubhouse.

The manager shouldn't have to do anything about this. Greg Vaughn or Frank Robinson would tune up both of these guys behind closed doors in a perfect world... oh wait, we don't have anyone even remotely resembling either of those guys here. But that's right, we don't need that quality. It's not measurable, so it can't be important.


I pretty much agree. I can't speak for everyone else, but I think veteran leadership has its place. The problem that I have and perceive from others is that veteraness is given higher consideration than actual talent. McCracken vs. Cody Ross is the perfect example. The Reds have a veteran with the pedigree to be the guy, he just doesn't want the job. Bench guys like Castro and Conine won't get everyone's attention. If the Reds were to add a veteran for the clubhouse that would also help in the field, I sure wouldn't complain.

WVRedsFan
04-28-2007, 10:50 AM
A "brain fart" maybe, but maybe also indicitive of not really having your head in the game. Maybe that's the same thing, I don't know.

I think Narron is a relatively inexperienced manager who has made and will continue to make all the basic mistakes a manager makes when he's learning his craft.

Maybe Krivsky should have pulled Narron for the rest of the game when he didn't pull Dunn, eh? Of course not, but it would have caused rejoicing and dancing in the streets of RedsZone if he had.

I'll bet Narron wishes he had dealt with Eddie in a different, less public way, now that he's had to deal with the after effects and public scrutiny.

But he didn't. He did what he thought was right at the time, and he's paying a price now that the lynch mobs have one more thing to gripe about.

These things used to be handled by a "kangaroo court", presided over by the veteran leadership in the clubhouse. You know, that "veteran leadership" that everyone loves to ridicule here. It's sorely lacking in the Reds clubhouse.

The manager shouldn't have to do anything about this. Greg Vaughn or Frank Robinson would tune up both of these guys behind closed doors in a perfect world... oh wait, we don't have anyone even remotely resembling either of those guys here. But that's right, we don't need that quality. It's not measurable, so it can't be important.

Good post and I agree. I sometimes forget that Narron is still learning to be a manager. But doesn't that just make even worse? Aren't inexperienced managers the antithesis of "competing now"? Isn't that what the new owner was saying? If so, it would make sense that you would have someone with the experience to lead the team to victories. Or does that make too much sense?

RFS62
04-28-2007, 10:58 AM
Good post and I agree. I sometimes forget that Narron is still learning to be a manager. But doesn't that just make even worse? Aren't inexperienced managers the antithesis of "competing now"? Isn't that what the new owner was saying? If so, it would make sense that you would have someone with the experience to lead the team to victories. Or does that make too much sense?

In a perfect world, I'd put most of my coaching resources in the minor leagues. I'd teach them right from the get-go.

That would eliminate so many of the problems we see today, IMO.

But that hasn't happened here in a long time.

On the major league level, all the good ones went through the growing pains we see in Narron or any other relatively inexperienced manager. Torre did. Cox did. They all do.

How's Sweet Lou doing now that he doesn't have the talent he had before, btw? How did he do in Tampa?

Regarding Chili's post on another topic, it all comes down to talent on the field.

UC_Ken
04-28-2007, 12:04 PM
Jerry's rules for benching due to lack of hustle

1. We are not going to play people who don't hustle (EE benching)

2. Loafing is okay as long as you get the correct number of bases (Phillips)

3. While on defense you are under no obligation to hold the hitter to "the correct number of bases" (Dunn)


If you don't think that EE is being held to a different standard than everyone else you need to open your eyes. This ridiculous double standard needs to be one of the main reasons Jerry is fired in season.

Spring~Fields
04-28-2007, 02:33 PM
Jerry's rules for benching due to lack of hustle

1. We are not going to play people who don't hustle (EE benching)

2. Loafing is okay as long as you get the correct number of bases (Phillips)

3. While on defense you are under no obligation to hold the hitter to "the correct number of bases" (Dunn)


If you don't think that EE is being held to a different standard than everyone else you need to open your eyes. This ridiculous double standard needs to be one of the main reasons Jerry is fired in season.

Narrons rules and standards appear to be indecisive and inconsistent, just as his lineups, pitching moves and spin doctoring remarks. Eventually his management and leadership style will lead to frustration from goal blocking then to apathy. Not to mention the seventh straight losing season for the Reds. I believe that his frequent manipulations send the message to the players that he does not have confidence in them, and eventually their play and performance begins to reflect a lack of confidence and ability.

Narrons constant changes indicate to me that he does not know what to do, and the results seem to support that.

RedFanAlways1966
04-28-2007, 03:11 PM
If you don't think that EE is being held to a different standard than everyone else you need to open your eyes. This ridiculous double standard needs to be one of the main reasons Jerry is fired in season.

Just want to be clear that we all understand some other differences...

Edwin stood in the batter's box and watched a popup get caught by the 2nd baseman. I do believe that he was confused at first and thought it was a foul ball. I also believe that he realized in plenty of time that it was in play to make at least a half-hearted effort to run towards first base. He stood in the box and made no effort to get towards first base. Frustration? I think so, but nothing other than an injury lets a batter get away with not taking a step towards 1st base on any ball hit in play.

There is a big difference in the afore-mentioned and... (1) Griffey mistaking a should-have-been-double off the wall for a HR. A hit that scored two runs anyway. (2) Phillips mistaking a triple (should have been an inside-the-park-HR?) for a HR. A hit that scored two runs anyway. (3) Dunn taking for granted a hit that is usually a single and allows a smart ballplayer to turn it into a double. A leadoff double that did not amount to anything (runs!) but hatred for Dunn and Narron.

If people do not understand that not leaving the batter's box on a popup and the other three things above are very-very different, then they need to open their eyes. None are positive, but the 1 vs. the 3 are very different.

I won't even get too deep into the point that Narron just might understand the personalities of all those involved in the above. He just might understand the best method for handling each individual. I do not know the players on my fav team well enough to know the best way to handle these sort of things. I'd like to think the manager of my fav team does.

flyer85
04-28-2007, 03:15 PM
Narrons constant changes indicate to me that he does not know what to do, and the results seem to support that.he is not proactive, simple reactive without really having thought it all through.

harangatang
04-28-2007, 10:35 PM
If he were to bench Dunn, he'd wait until the half inning is over. You don't show a player up by taking him out in the middle of an inning.Unless it's Matt LeCroy...

Chip R
04-28-2007, 11:07 PM
Just want to be clear that we all understand some other differences...

Edwin stood in the batter's box and watched a popup get caught by the 2nd baseman. I do believe that he was confused at first and thought it was a foul ball. I also believe that he realized in plenty of time that it was in play to make at least a half-hearted effort to run towards first base. He stood in the box and made no effort to get towards first base. Frustration? I think so, but nothing other than an injury lets a batter get away with not taking a step towards 1st base on any ball hit in play.

There is a big difference in the afore-mentioned and... (1) Griffey mistaking a should-have-been-double off the wall for a HR. A hit that scored two runs anyway. (2) Phillips mistaking a triple (should have been an inside-the-park-HR?) for a HR. A hit that scored two runs anyway. (3) Dunn taking for granted a hit that is usually a single and allows a smart ballplayer to turn it into a double. A leadoff double that did not amount to anything (runs!) but hatred for Dunn and Narron.

If people do not understand that not leaving the batter's box on a popup and the other three things above are very-very different, then they need to open their eyes. None are positive, but the 1 vs. the 3 are very different.


A big problem I had with the benching is that it was being done to a player who has had no problems in the past re: hustle. When Billy Martin did it to Reggie Jackson and Bobby Cox did it to Andruw Jones, both players had a history of dogging it. EE had no such history. From what I've read and heard, he works extra hard at curing his deficiencies, i.e. fielding and throwing. The only ones who complained about him being down in LOU too long last year on rehab and him being pulled for Castro when the Reds were leading in the late innings were folks here. Never heard a peep from EE. IIRC he even played some 1st base in LOU last year. I think a stern talking to may have been warranted but a benching was not. I think people liked this move not because Narron was showing a player who was boss but a lowly paid manager was showing an overpriced, lazy player who was boss for once. Made the average Joe feel good that a player finally got theirs.

It would have been a lot better for Narron had he said that he just wanted to teach EE a lesson instead of putting down his "Hustle or else" edict. Now of the Reds had come out of that game and won 8 of 10 and everything turned around, people would have forgot about his mendacity and overlooked any other incidents. But the Reds have struggled and Narron is getting some heat for anything bad that happens. If a player makes an error, it's Narron saying one thing and the team doing another. If a player doesn't give his all, people start complaining that Narron has a double standard and is treating EE unfairly. Narron has said that he loves a set lineup yet he juggles it every day to no avail. I don't blame Narron for everything but no manager is going to keep his job if the team keeps losing.

WVRedsFan
04-29-2007, 02:17 AM
A big problem I had with the benching is that it was being done to a player who has had no problems in the past re: hustle. When Billy Martin did it to Reggie Jackson and Bobby Cox did it to Andruw Jones, both players had a history of dogging it. EE had no such history. From what I've read and heard, he works extra hard at curing his deficiencies, i.e. fielding and throwing. The only ones who complained about him being down in LOU too long last year on rehab and him being pulled for Castro when the Reds were leading in the late innings were folks here. Never heard a peep from EE. IIRC he even played some 1st base in LOU last year. I think a stern talking to may have been warranted but a benching was not. I think people liked this move not because Narron was showing a player who was boss but a lowly paid manager was showing an overpriced, lazy player who was boss for once. Made the average Joe feel good that a player finally got theirs

My thoughts exactly. I was surprised at Narron's reaction. Every game is televised these days and there was Jerry, documented on tape, rolling his eyes and gesturing--not like him at all. Edwin's young and an easy target. It reminded me of the first-year teacher who, in order to get control of his class, picks on the least likely kid who will protest or tell Momma. It was a mistake, but what the hey. We've seen plenty of them from Narron. As RFS62 says, he's learning. The problem is, we shouldn't have a manager that's learning if we have a philosophy that says "win now", as the owner said we did.