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View Full Version : Cormier is gone! Salmon is here!



Matt700wlw
04-28-2007, 03:00 PM
Sweet!




Also today, the Reds designated for assignment LHP Rheal Cormier and recalled from Louisville RHP Brad Salmon. Salmon will wear uniform number 53.

OnBaseMachine
04-28-2007, 03:01 PM
Alright! Great move by Krivsky!

captainmorgan07
04-28-2007, 03:02 PM
i like the move coutlangus is doing fine as the left in the pen he's young and is going to be good salmon deserves his shot

Degenerate39
04-28-2007, 03:02 PM
:clap: :clap: :clap:

KittyDuran
04-28-2007, 03:03 PM
So was this the other move that Fay hinted at in his blog??? :confused:

OnBaseMachine
04-28-2007, 03:03 PM
Salmon at Louisville:

8.1 IP, 7 H, 2 R, 0 HR, 0 BB, 9 K, 2.16 ERA, 0.86 WHIP

mth123
04-28-2007, 03:05 PM
Whatever the results, it was the right move. Salmon's shot is now. McBeth takes his spot in AAA and the bullpen has a little more stuff than it had.

The applause you hear is me clapping for WK.

reds44
04-28-2007, 03:06 PM
Thank God Cormier is gone.

However, I would have prefered Medlock or McBeth over Salmon.

All in all, it's still a good move. Not going to complain.

Royals Fan
04-28-2007, 03:08 PM
Trust me Rheal will wind up on a team that will be in the pennant race ie Cards or Cubs and or back for Philly. The right team will give him an shot and he will do good job for them just my thoughts.

captainmorgan07
04-28-2007, 03:09 PM
has salmon ever closed in the minors?

rotnoid
04-28-2007, 03:11 PM
Trust me Rheal will wind up on a team that will be in the pennant race ie Cards or Cubs and or back for Philly. The right team will give him an shot and he will do good job for them just my thoughts.

So, then by that logic the Reds asking price has been too high for the past month. I have little doubt they've been attempting to move him. If all those clubs are interested, I'd think they could come up with a mid level prospect for him rather than chance a bidding war later or having to guarantee a second year like WK did last year.

reds44
04-28-2007, 03:11 PM
has salmon ever closed in the minors?
Not really. He had 7 saves last year, 4 the year before, 3 the year before that.

flyer85
04-28-2007, 03:13 PM
Alright! Great move by Krivsky!that is not a great move, it was simply done after it had become obvious to everyone not in a coma.

hebroncougar
04-28-2007, 03:13 PM
So, then by that logic the Reds asking price has been too high for the past month. I have little doubt they've been attempting to move him. If all those clubs are interested, I'd think they could come up with a mid level prospect for him rather than chance a bidding war later or having to guarantee a second year like WK did last year.

I agree, the asking price may have been too high, but those teams probably knew after opening day and the reds keep 3 LH that he was a lame duck, and it just became a waiting game. I'm shocked the Reds traded for him, had to sign him to an extra year to get him, then turned around 9 months later and release him. I applaud the move, but good grief Krivsky have some foresight.

Eric_Davis
04-28-2007, 03:17 PM
You have to think he tried to trade Cormier and got no takers.

flyer85
04-28-2007, 03:19 PM
now they need to get Stanton and Weathers out of the back end of bullpen, they should be at the front of the pen

flyer85
04-28-2007, 03:19 PM
You have to think he tried to trade Cormier and got no takers.... I hope that wasn't a shock to the Reds

jimbo
04-28-2007, 03:20 PM
that is not a great move, it was simply done after it had become obvious to everyone not in a coma.

I'm sure they have been trying to trade him. Makes sense to try that route first rather than dumping that kind of money.

Geez, some people just aren't happy unless they are complaining. :rolleyes:

reds44
04-28-2007, 03:20 PM
now they need to get Stanton and Weathers out of the back end of bullpen, they should be at the front of the pen
Put the younger guys with the good stuff at the back of the pen. They may not have expierence, but they'll learn.

mth123
04-28-2007, 03:20 PM
Trust me Rheal will wind up on a team that will be in the pennant race ie Cards or Cubs and or back for Philly. The right team will give him an shot and he will do good job for them just my thoughts.

The Reds still have 10 days to get a deal done. Maybe something useful still happens. Maybe some Salary relief. I think Cormier will have multiple offers and a team may deal something for him to keep from bidding against others. Cormier on his own isn't the worst pitcher in the league, he is simply redundant and of no use in the Red's pen. A team short on lefties (Seattle, Detroit, Arizona and San Diego come to mind) might be interested.

captainmorgan07
04-28-2007, 03:21 PM
Put the younger guys with the good stuff at the back of the pen. They may not have expierence, but they'll learn.

that's what i say

flyer85
04-28-2007, 03:22 PM
I'm sure they have been trying to trade him. Makes sense to try that route first rather than dumping that kind of money.

Geez, some people just aren't happy unless they are complaining. :rolleyes: I did point how awful of an acquisition he was when the trade was made last July. It shouldn't have taken 9 months to figure that out.

flyer85
04-28-2007, 03:22 PM
Put the younger guys with the good stuff at the back of the pen. They may not have expierence, but they'll learn.nothing to lose at this point.

hebroncougar
04-28-2007, 03:24 PM
Here's a question. What the heck do you do with Majewski and Bray when/if they come back??? Count. go down for Bray, but how do you make room for Majeweski, send Salmon back down or get rid of Milton and move Saarloos into the rotation? Anyone know when Bray's due back?

Dunner44
04-28-2007, 03:24 PM
The Reds still have 10 days to get a deal done. Maybe something useful still happens. Maybe some Salary relief. I think Cormier will have multiple offers and a team may deal something for him to keep from bidding against others. Cormier on his own isn't the worst pitcher in the league, he is simply redundant and of no use in the Red's pen. A team short on lefties (Seattle, Detroit, Arizona and San Diego come to mind) might be interested.



Yeah, everyone needs to remember that Wayne still has 10 days to get somethign for Cormier. It won't be a lot, but someone who doesn't want to get in a bidding war can easly ship the Reds a PTBNL or some cash. Its very possible that Cormier still nets some return for the Reds.

Besides, people have been clling for Cormier to be DFAed for months now. It finally happens, and people complain Wayne didn't get enough... sigh.

reds44
04-28-2007, 03:25 PM
Here's a question. What the heck do you do with Majewski and Bray when/if they come back??? Count. go down for Bray, but how do you make room for Majeweski, send Salmon back down or get rid of Milton and move Saarloos into the rotation? Anyone know when Bray's due back?
Bray we'll be up here whenever he is healthy, as he should be.

Majewski has been pitching in AAA all year, so I'm not so sure what you mean when he is "back".

hebroncougar
04-28-2007, 03:27 PM
Bray we'll be up here whenever he is healthy, as he should be.

Majewski has been pitching in AAA all year, so I'm not so sure what you mean when he is "back".

I thought the move was touted as a "rehab" assignment?

flyer85
04-28-2007, 03:28 PM
I honestly would not be surprised if we never see Majewski on the Reds ML roster again.

hebroncougar
04-28-2007, 03:29 PM
I honestly would not be surprised if we never see Majewski on the Reds ML roster again.

That's what I'm getting at.............wow giving up Kearns and Lopez for Bray.:eek:

Falls City Beer
04-28-2007, 03:32 PM
I honestly would not be surprised if we never see Majewski on the Reds ML roster again.

The guy's arm is gone; he's the flivver behind the Formula Ones. Bray, still a huge, huge question mark; thus the moves last night and today.

I'm glad Wayne recognizes that there's more than a tiny problem in that bullpen, and I'm glad he's doing something about it.

I'd rather see McBeth up here than Salmon; at least McBeth was reared, coached, and developed in a real organization.

I don't want to see Burton unless he makes massive improvements with his control.

reds44
04-28-2007, 03:32 PM
I thought the move was touted as a "rehab" assignment?
He was never put on the DL, he was just optioned to AAA. I have no idea what they called it, but that doesn't really matter. At this point, all Majewski is, is a AAA arm.

Bray is a different story. I really like Bray, and when he is healthy he'll be up here.

reds44
04-28-2007, 03:33 PM
That's what I'm getting at.............wow giving up Kearns and Lopez for Bray.:eek:
Well, we did get Daryl Thompson who is off to a nice start in the minors.

roby
04-28-2007, 03:33 PM
That's what I'm getting at.............wow giving up Kearns and Lopez for Bray.:eek:

Let's hope Bray works out! (Or it could be Kearns and Lopez for absolutely nothing)!

jimbo
04-28-2007, 03:34 PM
I did point how awful of an acquisition he was when the trade was made last July. It shouldn't have taken 9 months to figure that out.

Congratulations on that.

Maybe the Reds have had it figured out for quite some time but wanted to exhaust all options before just dumping his salary. That's all I'm saying.

savafan
04-28-2007, 03:35 PM
The guy's arm is gone; he's the flivver behind the Formula Ones.

I'm not ready to close the door on Maj just yet. I think his arm has been really overused, first in the WBC, and then with Washington over the last couple years, but he's still young, and I believe he has potential.

Marc D
04-28-2007, 03:36 PM
Besides, people have been clling for Cormier to be DFAed for months now. It finally happens, and people complain Wayne didn't get enough... sigh.


I think people are just being realistic and pointing out that WK is simply fixing a problem of his own creation. Yes its a good move and should be welcomed but don't break your arm patting WK on the back because its a problem he created.

The irony of every thread including a memeber of the positive camp whining about a memeber of the negative camp's whining never ceases to amuse me.

Aronchis
04-28-2007, 03:36 PM
Salmon doesn't do much for me. I can't wait to get a look at McBeth.

jojo
04-28-2007, 03:36 PM
The guy's arm is gone; he's the flivver behind the Formula Ones. Bray, still a huge, huge question mark; thus the moves last night and today.

I'm glad Wayne recognizes that there's more than a tiny problem in that bullpen, and I'm glad he's doing something about it.

I'd rather see McBeth up here than Salmon; at least McBeth was reared, coached, and developed in a real organization.

I don't want to see Burton unless he makes massive improvements with his control.

I love this about McBeth's minor league career: K/9: 10.8

This worries me: BB/9: 4.23.

McBeth still has some serious command issues to work through....

flyer85
04-28-2007, 03:38 PM
Bray, still a huge, huge question mark; thus the moves last night and today. Bray "broke his finger" almost 6 weeks ago. You would have thought he would have been throwing and maybe almost ready to return by this point. Makes you wonder if something else is actually going on with him.

Majewski probably needed surgery before the Reds ever dealt for him. He was seriously abused by Frank Robinson for a year and a half.

mth123
04-28-2007, 03:50 PM
I love this about McBeth's minor league career: K/9: 10.8

This worries me: BB/9: 4.23.

McBeth still has some serious command issues to work through....

Agreed, but its a lot easier to swallow when the K's are good. Beats the heck out of guys who K and walk about the same number (like say Cormier or Saarloos).

I share your concern though. As he jumps a level the Ks will likely go down while the walks go up. He's still new to pitching. At least there is some raw material to refine. It's better than guys who simply have nothing.

redsmetz
04-28-2007, 03:53 PM
I haven't read the whole thread, but don't we have about 10 days to cut him or trade him. If that's the guess, I trade could still come off. I really didn't expect Cormier to go north. But then again, I don't think they expected the rash of DL folks either.

Will M
04-28-2007, 03:55 PM
I agree, the asking price may have been too high, but those teams probably knew after opening day and the reds keep 3 LH that he was a lame duck, and it just became a waiting game. I'm shocked the Reds traded for him, had to sign him to an extra year to get him, then turned around 9 months later and release him. I applaud the move, but good grief Krivsky have some foresight.

Krisky has only been a GM for a little over a year. Trading for Cormier ( and giving him the extra year ) was a mistake. Hopefully Krisky will learn from these kinds of errors.

M2
04-28-2007, 03:57 PM
I'm not ready to close the door on Maj just yet. I think his arm has been really overused, first in the WBC, and then with Washington over the last couple years, but he's still young, and I believe he has potential.

Majewski was always more mirage than legit pitcher. His "potential" is mostly as a 6th-7th inning guy. Probably his best chance of sticking with the club beyond this season is surgery. Barring that, if he continues to get belted around like he is right now, then he'll be a 40-man roster casualty.

KronoRed
04-28-2007, 04:45 PM
One down 5 to go ;)

NC Reds
04-28-2007, 04:52 PM
Salmon earned a shot last season. Krivsky gets no credit from me at this point.

tbball10
04-28-2007, 05:29 PM
i hope salmon getting promoted = medlock in AAA. i also hope bray gets healthy and magic regains his form soon

NorrisHopper30
04-28-2007, 05:36 PM
I love this about McBeth's minor league career: K/9: 10.8

This worries me: BB/9: 4.23.

McBeth still has some serious command issues to work through....

I could be wrong but through 10 innings this year he has 3 BB. It is only one walk, but that is improvement.

This sounds like a good deal to me, especially because of the emergence of Josh Hamilton - we don't really need Denorfia.

mth123
04-28-2007, 05:48 PM
i hope salmon getting promoted = medlock in AAA. i also hope bray gets healthy and magic regains his form soon

I'm guessing McBeth takes Salmon's spot and Medlock stays put. The Reds need to jettison some more soft tossers and get some others (Bray, Burton and McBeth) to Cincy with other promising youngsters moving up.

I'd be looking to deal Saarloos for a bat. Some team may try him as a starter and he gives up too many runners and HRs to do well in HR park like GABP.

LincolnparkRed
04-28-2007, 07:14 PM
I'd be looking to deal Saarloos for a bat. Some team may try him as a starter and he gives up too many runners and HRs to do well in HR park like GABP.

in that scenario, where does milton go? I had Saarloos starting after Milton is given his walking papers or traded. how can we not get Milton to the Yankees yet?

mth123
04-28-2007, 07:28 PM
in that scenario, where does milton go? I had Saarloos starting after Milton is given his walking papers or traded. how can we not get Milton to the Yankees yet?

Milton should go too, but he probably won't bring anything back. I think Saarloos is likely to be as bad as Milton with his lack of Ks, his walks and HRs allowed. When Milton goes, Dumatrait or Livingston (I vote Dumatrait) steps in.

Saarloos at $1.2 Million has trade value to a starter starved team. Milton at $9 Million probably not.

Marc D
04-28-2007, 07:34 PM
Milton should go too, but he probably won't bring anything back. I think Saarloos is likely to be as bad as Milton with his lack of Ks, his walks and HRs allowed. When Milton goes, Dumatrait or Livingston (I vote Dumatrait) steps in.

Saarloos at $1.2 Million has trade value to a starter starved team. Milton at $9 Million probably not.


Take the probably out of it. Milton has no trade value whatsoever. These first couple of decent starts are as good as it gets. His knees are degenerative, the starts will continue to get shorter and more brutal. You could literally see the regression last night although the final run count wasn't that bad.

Johnny Footstool
04-28-2007, 07:42 PM
Salmon earned a shot last season. Krivsky gets no credit from me at this point.

Oh, I give Krivsky credit for finally recognizing his mistake. Unfortunately, he gave Cormier a 2-year deal last season, so that's another couple million dollars flushed down the drain. Small-budget teams like the Reds can't really afford to operate that way.

mth123
04-28-2007, 07:43 PM
Take the probably out of it. Milton has no trade value whatsoever. These first couple of decent starts are as good as it gets. His knees are degenerative, the starts will continue to get shorter and more brutal. You could literally see the regression last night although the final run count wasn't that bad.

Agreed. Just responding to why I said shop Saarloos and not Milton.

jojo
04-28-2007, 07:45 PM
Here's the thing.....Saarloos's value hasn't increased over what the Reds paid for him....

D-Man
04-28-2007, 07:54 PM
I love this about McBeth's minor league career: K/9: 10.8

This worries me: BB/9: 4.23.

McBeth still has some serious command issues to work through....

Zumaya's ratios in the minors -- 11.09 (k/9), 4.18 (BB/9)
Scott Williamson's ratios in the minors -- 9.93, 3.56
Armando Benitez's ratios in the minors -- 11.91, 3.95
Brad Lidge's ratios in the minors -- 9.76, 3.56

All of these guys were younger than McBeth, of course, but that's a pretty impressive collection of bullpen guys. And McBeth's ratios are bounded by this group.

Second, it is encouraging that McBeth's ratios were much worse in his first year of pitching than they were in his second year. So his control has been improving, although that improvement has been bumpy.

So I think there is a very good chance that McBeth will have a good (perhaps dominant) bullpen career, despite his control woes.

corkedbat
04-28-2007, 07:59 PM
I'm hoping that someone will step up and offer some kind of prospect for Frenchy since he is LH'd, but then I'm hoping somebody is idiot enough to offer us something (ANYTHING) for Milton by the trade deadline.

I'd also like to see some young guy step foward and claim the closer's role soon also. Then maybe there will be a market for Weathers and/or Stanton (possibly even Majewski). The BP has it pretty rough right now, but I'm still hopeful that the raw materials are there for a strong pen in the future though.

D-Man
04-28-2007, 08:00 PM
By the way, B.J. Ryan's career K and BB numbers in the majors are eerily similar to McBeth's: 10.93, 4.27.

jojo
04-28-2007, 08:00 PM
Zumaya's ratios in the minors -- 11.09 (k/9), 4.18 (BB/9)
Scott Williamson's ratios in the minors -- 9.93, 3.56
Armando Benitez's ratios in the minors -- 11.91, 3.95
Brad Lidge's ratios in the minors -- 9.76, 3.56

All of these guys were younger than McBeth, of course, but that's a pretty impressive collection of bullpen guys. And McBeth's ratios are bounded by this group.

Second, it is encouraging that McBeth's ratios were much worse in his first year of pitching than they were in his second year. So his control has been improving, although that improvement has been bumpy.

So I think there is a very good chance that McBeth will have a good (perhaps dominant) bullpen career, despite his control woes.


I like the possibility that he might have three major league quality pitches....

mth123
04-28-2007, 08:52 PM
Here's the thing.....Saarloos's value hasn't increased over what the Reds paid for him....

Disagree. In the offseason teams don't need a starter for a game in a few days and with free agency there are plenty of options available. During the season demand is higher because there are games going on and supply is less because the free agents have all signed.

Teams in need will pay something to try and band aid an immediate problem.

Dracodave
04-28-2007, 08:54 PM
I like the possibility that he might have three major league quality pitches....

Plus the fact that he's not 37, only 27?

savafan
04-28-2007, 08:54 PM
Teams in need will pay something to try and band aid an immediate problem.

The 2006 Mets are a good example.

edabbs44
04-28-2007, 09:19 PM
Oh, I give Krivsky credit for finally recognizing his mistake. Unfortunately, he gave Cormier a 2-year deal last season, so that's another couple million dollars flushed down the drain. Small-budget teams like the Reds can't really afford to operate that way.

I thought he only gave Cormier a one year extension.

The right move, but WK could have saved himself $2 million or so by not giving that extension. I think he was the only person who liked that move at that time.

jojo
04-28-2007, 09:28 PM
Disagree. In the offseason teams don't need a starter for a game in a few days and with free agency there are plenty of options available. During the season demand is higher because there are games going on and supply is less because the free agents have all signed.

Teams in need will pay something to try and band aid an immediate problem.

I don't disagree with that... It's just that Saarloos wont be the guy they're targeting and if he was, he'd be in a class of probably 20 other similar options..

mth123
04-28-2007, 09:32 PM
I don't disagree with that... It's just that Saarloos wont be the guy they're targeting and if he was, he'd be in a class of probably 20 other similar options..

Targeting? Probably not. Take what they can get and overpay for it? I think so when the circumstances call for it.

Highlifeman21
04-28-2007, 10:15 PM
You have to think he tried to trade Cormier and got no takers.

So instead, that sound we all heard was $2 Million being flushed down the toilet.

Trade for a guy, give him an extension, and then DFA him before he's pitched 1 full calendar year for us.

I'm glad that we DFA'd Cormier, but I'm not happy about how that $2 Mil was wasted...

savafan
04-28-2007, 10:44 PM
The right move, but WK could have saved himself $2 million or so by not giving that extension. I think he was the only person who liked that move at that time.

Didn't Cormier have a no trade clause, and the extension is what got him to agree to the trade? I seem to remember that from somewhere.

jojo
04-28-2007, 10:46 PM
Targeting? Probably not. Take what they can get and overpay for it? I think so when the circumstances call for it.

But you don't have to overpay for a chevette when there are 20 others on the lot....

mth123
04-28-2007, 10:56 PM
But you don't have to overpay for a chevette when there are 20 others on the lot....

But there aren't. Guys like Saarloos (who I agree is not real good) just aren't available right now.

jojo
04-28-2007, 11:06 PM
But there aren't. Guys like Saarloos (who I agree is not real good) just aren't available right now.

He's pretty close to a replacement level starter.... reasonable facsimiles aren't that rare...

Chip R
04-28-2007, 11:41 PM
Didn't Cormier have a no trade clause, and the extension is what got him to agree to the trade? I seem to remember that from somewhere.


You may be right. I seem to recall something about how the Reds couldn't pull off the trade unless they gave him that extention.

edabbs44
04-28-2007, 11:48 PM
Didn't Cormier have a no trade clause, and the extension is what got him to agree to the trade? I seem to remember that from somewhere.

Then that should have been the deal-breaker right there.

traderumor
04-28-2007, 11:51 PM
rheal cormier c. 2006-07 = joe hoerner c. 1977

Fullboat
04-29-2007, 03:15 AM
Say la vee Frenchy.:wave:

AtomicDumpling
04-29-2007, 04:00 AM
I think Wayne Krivsky is demonstrating that he has learned from last year's mistakes. Last year he overpaid for Cormier by giving him a multi-million dollar extension. He also drastically overpaid for Bray and Majewski by giving up Kearns, Lopez and Wagner -- all of whom are playing important roles for the Nationals at bargain salaries.

Now Krivsky has figured out that middle relievers can be had very cheaply. Instead of giving up proven major league starters, this time he gave up a severely injured minor leaguer that was probably never going to be a starter for the Reds in exchange for a quality reliever (and another PTBNL). That is a much more reasonable price to pay.

So I am encouraged that Krivsky is learning on the job.

OesterPoster
04-29-2007, 08:43 AM
So I am encouraged that Krivsky is learning on the job.

Now, if he could just figure out that Chad Moeller should never again step foot into the Reds dugout as a MLB player...

...and realize that Juan Castro is severely overpaid for what he provides...

...and find a closer...

...and find a right-handed power bat.

Have I covered all the Redszone heartburn areas yet? :evil:

jimbo
04-29-2007, 03:01 PM
So instead, that sound we all heard was $2 Million being flushed down the toilet.

Trade for a guy, give him an extension, and then DFA him before he's pitched 1 full calendar year for us.

I'm glad that we DFA'd Cormier, but I'm not happy about how that $2 Mil was wasted...

You say it like it's your money that's getting dumped. I doubt that $2 mil getting wasted will have any impact on this season's team payroll or will affect any player personel decisions this season or in the future, IMO.

crazybob60
04-29-2007, 04:12 PM
I wonder how much that much money really affects the front office guys that deal it out and if it even so much as puts a twinge in their stomach at all? I mean, to put it in comparison, is it like one of us throwing a penny into a 'give a penny, take a penny' cup at the store, or is it more like us having a new $50 bill in our pockets and then our dogs coming and chewing it up until it is no longer usable, anybody with knowledge to this comparison and can help me with this, please, cuz I am sure other would like to know as well.

mth123
04-29-2007, 04:49 PM
You say it like it's your money that's getting dumped. I doubt that $2 mil getting wasted will have any impact on this season's team payroll or will affect any player personel decisions this season or in the future, IMO.

Every Dollar counts. To think differently is to ignore the constraints of every decision. The trick to being a manager in any venture is allocating resources.

You may think $2 Million is nothing in terms of a major league operation, but $2 Million here and $2 Million there eventually add up to put a hurt on the budget and limit other moves after a while.

The only person I know who doesn't understand this is my wife.;)

savafan
04-29-2007, 05:18 PM
It's not as big a financial hit as DFAing Danny Graves was. Just sayin'

REDREAD
04-30-2007, 10:16 AM
I agree, the asking price may have been too high, but those teams probably knew after opening day and the reds keep 3 LH that he was a lame duck, and it just became a waiting game. I'm shocked the Reds traded for him, had to sign him to an extra year to get him, then turned around 9 months later and release him. I applaud the move, but good grief Krivsky have some foresight.

Exactly. Very poor use of resources. We paid for roughly 1.5 years of Cormier at about 3 million. Then we ended up getting a little more than a half a year of bad pitching from him.

It sure would be nice to have that 3 million extra to dump into the draft this summer.

REDREAD
04-30-2007, 10:19 AM
The Reds still have 10 days to get a deal done. Maybe something useful still happens. Maybe some Salary relief. I think Cormier will have multiple offers and a team may deal something for him to keep from bidding against others. Cormier on his own isn't the worst pitcher in the league, he is simply redundant and of no use in the Red's pen. A team short on lefties (Seattle, Detroit, Arizona and San Diego come to mind) might be interested.

My guess is that Cormeier has already been offered to every team in the league for any warm body.. Just to save the 2 million.. I guess there are no takers. There will be no bidding war. Teams can now sign Cormier for the minimum salary, and I'm sure if they lose him to another team, they will not shed any tears.

REDREAD
04-30-2007, 10:25 AM
Didn't Cormier have a no trade clause, and the extension is what got him to agree to the trade? I seem to remember that from somewhere.

I think you are right, but Wayne should've just gone ahead and let him veto the trade.

I never understood why Wayne bent over backwards to accomodate Cormier. It the trade dies, so what? It's not as if Cormier was an impact reliever

registerthis
04-30-2007, 10:40 AM
Salmon earned a shot last season. Krivsky gets no credit from me at this point.

I'm sure he's crushed.

westofyou
04-30-2007, 10:43 AM
I'm sure he's crushed.

Destroyed, ruined, heartbroken.

westofyou
04-30-2007, 10:46 AM
Years of Lindner not eating contracts.. disdain... finally a management that realizes sunk costs and are willing to take a gamble... even if said sunk cost might be a avenue one will have to take, they still took it. More disdain.

I for one am glad that they take chances and cut bait still owing cash. The Reds of my lifetime never would have done that.

Unless you flipped them off.

Ltlabner
04-30-2007, 11:01 AM
Years of Lindner not eating contracts.. disdain... finally a management that realizes sunk costs and are willing to take a gamble... even if said sunk cost might be a avenue one will have to take, they still took it. More disdain. .

:clap:

Of course we wish our FO would never ever make any mistakes. I'm not sure what planet has the baseball franchise with the uber-perfect FO that never screws up. Let me know when we find one.

But here's a prime example of the FO realizing the errors of their ways, and acting fairly quickly to rectify the situation.....but still they are trashed.

I remain convinced that a WS title will not satisfy some here at RZ because they would have done things differently.

Chip R
04-30-2007, 11:24 AM
Years of Lindner not eating contracts.. disdain... finally a management that realizes sunk costs and are willing to take a gamble... even if said sunk cost might be a avenue one will have to take, they still took it. More disdain.

I for one am glad that they take chances and cut bait still owing cash. The Reds of my lifetime never would have done that.

Unless you flipped them off.


To be fair, I don't think anyone's complaining about the eating of the contract. People are complaining that he was signed to the contract in the first place - by the current regime, mind you. I'd rather not see the Reds go out and sign just any schmoe to an expensive multi-year deal and eat the contract a year or two later. That may be OK for the Yankees and Sox who have oodles of money but Cormier's making $2.5M this year and it appears the Reds are going to have to pay most of it. Wayne got suckered because he was so desperate for relief pitching. I don't want that to become a habit.

Johnny Footstool
04-30-2007, 11:25 AM
Years of Lindner not eating contracts.. disdain... finally a management that realizes sunk costs and are willing to take a gamble... even if said sunk cost might be a avenue one will have to take, they still took it. More disdain.

I for one am glad that they take chances and cut bait still owing cash. The Reds of my lifetime never would have done that.

Unless you flipped them off.

Like I said, I'm glad Krivsky realized his mistake, but I'm still not going to applaud the guy for simply cleaning up a mess he made.

westofyou
04-30-2007, 11:42 AM
Like I said, I'm glad Krivsky realized his mistake, but I'm still not going to applaud the guy for simply cleaning up a mess he made.

Who said you have to applaud him?

Not me.. I'm just saying that it's nice to see that if something doesn't work out that they don't try to drive the camel through the needles eye over and over again. I'm certainly not going to go off on how stupid this and that was, baseball is hard and the fact is the middle relief pitcher is eating up more time and money then they did anytime in the games history, it's a shrinking resource pool, one with pratfalls and diamonds in the rough. One thing's for sure sitting on your hands will get you nowhere.

My point is the former Reds of my lifetime liked to sit on their hands instead of taking gambles.

redsmetz
04-30-2007, 11:42 AM
I'm not sure I'd say WK got suckered. He didn't sign Cormier to a multi-year contract. In fact, in order to secure the pitcher, they agreed to extension to get Cormier to waive the 10/5 rights he had. Cormier had times when he was something we needed, and other outings when it wasn't. I think, as I've said repeatedly, that the Reds were betting they could move Cormier during the offseason or early on. Instead, the gamble became part of the roster glut we faced and Cormier became the one who needed to go. He may still yet be traded before the 10 days are up. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to see him end up with his first team, the Cardinals, given the tragic event this weekend.

From our standpoint, it was a calculated risk that ultimately payoff (as seen from today's vantage point). You win some, you lose some.

Sea Ray
04-30-2007, 12:03 PM
I think you are right, but Wayne should've just gone ahead and let him veto the trade.

I never understood why Wayne bent over backwards to accomodate Cormier. It the trade dies, so what? It's not as if Cormier was an impact reliever

I seem to recall that one reason WK did this was to keep the Cardinals from taking him. Apparently they had put in a waiver claim for him as well. I still don't do it. We're not only on the hook for his salary, we've got to pony up his $500,000 buyout. He was never worth it and a lot of us said that last summer.

redsmetz
04-30-2007, 12:06 PM
I seem to recall that one reason WK did this was to keep the Cardinals from taking him. Apparently they had put in a waiver claim for him as well. I still don't do it. We're not only on the hook for his salary, we've got to pony up his $500,000 buyout. He was never worth it and a lot of us said that last summer.

That's assuming his contract still isn't traded before the 10 days is up. If he's traded, the other team has his contract. I think there will be some team or another that will want him. The only thing that has changed is that the Reds hand is now forced, lowering their price. But they still could obtain some other player plus be out from under the contract. Eating is not a given for about another week.

Doc. Scott
04-30-2007, 12:09 PM
I'm still surprised the Phillies wouldn't take Cormier back if the Reds ate the lion's share of his contract. Their only lefty in the pen had walked something like eleven guys in four innings. Rheal's career may be in terminal decline, but he could do better than that.

westofyou
04-30-2007, 12:17 PM
I'm still surprised the Phillies wouldn't take Cormier back if the Reds ate the lion's share of his contract. Their only lefty in the pen had walked something like eleven guys in four innings. Rheal's career may be in terminal decline, but he could do better than that.

I read somewhere that the Tigers are longing for another LH reliever too.

Sea Ray
04-30-2007, 12:29 PM
That's assuming his contract still isn't traded before the 10 days is up.

That's what these 10 days are all about. How much of that contract can WK get someone else to take. Good luck to him...

REDREAD
04-30-2007, 12:36 PM
Who said you have to applaud him?

Not me.. I'm just saying that it's nice to see that if something doesn't work out that they don't try to drive the camel through the needles eye over and over again. .

Too bad they still can't do it with a big contract, like Milton..

Johnny Footstool
04-30-2007, 12:39 PM
My point is the former Reds of my lifetime liked to sit on their hands instead of taking gambles.

They took plenty of gambles. The trouble is they let their bets ride for too long.

But Krivsky has also cut bait too soon on a couple of guys. Cody Ross comes to mind -- I'd much rather have him as a 5th outfielder than Norris Hopper.

REDREAD
04-30-2007, 12:41 PM
That's assuming his contract still isn't traded before the 10 days is up. If he's traded, the other team has his contract. I think there will be some team or another that will want him. The only thing that has changed is that the Reds hand is now forced, lowering their price. But they still could obtain some other player plus be out from under the contract. Eating is not a given for about another week.

My guess is that Wayne has been trying for weeks to unload Cormier. Maybe he hasn't tried offered to eat some of Frenchie's salary yet, but my guess is that teams are willing to wait 10 days to have Frenchie pitch for them on the Reds' dime.

Let's face it, Cormier is crap. That's why we're dumping him. Any team that wants him will want him for filler, not for use in important situations. In other words, I can't see a team that upset if they miss out on the chance to pick him up.

registerthis
04-30-2007, 12:54 PM
But Krivsky has also cut bait too soon on a couple of guys. Cody Ross comes to mind -- I'd much rather have him as a 5th outfielder than Norris Hopper.

Cody Ross--he of the .284 OBP last year?

He's a bit part on any roster. Norris, Cody...all interchangeable parts.

Johnny Footstool
04-30-2007, 01:08 PM
Cody Ross--he of the .284 OBP last year?

He's a bit part on any roster. Norris, Cody...all interchangeable parts.

Yeah, Ross -- the guy who slugged .431 last year and had almost a 10% walk rate. As opposed to Hopper, who slugs about .025 points higher than his OPB and walks about half as often as Ross.

I never said Ross was anything more than a 5th outfielder, but as such, I think he's a better 5th OF than Hopper.

registerthis
04-30-2007, 01:26 PM
I never said Ross was anything more than a 5th outfielder, but as such, I think he's a better 5th OF than Hopper.

I guess I just don't see a great deal about missing out on the services of Cody Ross. Sometimes bit part players go on to have average careers somewhere else...and sometimes bit part players come to Cinci and perform at an average level (see Ross, David, 2006). In terms of my criticisms of Krivsky, letting Cody Ross slip through his fingers is pretty low on the totem pole.

westofyou
04-30-2007, 01:37 PM
Bob Howsam let Mike Caldwell get away, that was something, Cody Ross? That's just another tear in a salted sea.

Stewie
04-30-2007, 02:11 PM
I'm still surprised the Phillies wouldn't take Cormier back if the Reds ate the lion's share of his contract. Their only lefty in the pen had walked something like eleven guys in four innings. Rheal's career may be in terminal decline, but he could do better than that.


I'm hoping the Phillies don't bring Cormier back. But yes, if the Reds pay most of the contract, I suppose the Phillies could do worse. The actually sent that lefty you mentioned, Matt Smith (part of the great "return" they got for Bobby Abreu), to the minors a few days ago and called up another 22 year old lefty. So at some point, they will need a lefty in that pen, but there has to be better options for them out there than Cormier.

That said, I fully expect to see Cormier back with the Phillies in the near future.

bucksfan2
04-30-2007, 02:47 PM
This move has made sense since day one. The reds broke camp with basically three lefty specialists. Cormier was the odd man out when Coutlangus showed that he could pitch at the big league level. I think the pen was such a disaster that Krivsky made a couple of knee jerk decisions that he regreted soon there after. IMO this is the beginning of a reshaping of the reds that you will see Krivsky do throughout the season.

westofyou
04-30-2007, 03:32 PM
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6166#CIN


In the wake of the Kearns-Lopez disaster and all of its after-effects and non-additive additions, I've been a bit given to bashing on Wayne Krivsky for his bullpen obsessions, because he seems too ready to dive into a terminal case of Wade's tremens, the compulsive need to add relievers. However, going all the way back to the start of his service with the Reds, the man does keep doing other things that I actually like. Take his decision to anticipate some offseason business, and take care of Coffey's contract right now. Coffey might have been arbitration-eligible as a super-two player after this season, but why worry about that? Keep the player happy, eliminate even the threat of going through that sort of offseason unpleasantness, and perhaps also send the message that the cheapskate sensibility of the Age of Lindner is just a memory.

Dumping Cormier's a reminder that this new willingness to spend money extends to eating contracts when it involves discarding a veteran who seems to be beyond useless. What's interesting about ditching Cormier is that this is the first seven-figure disposal that wasn't a matter of discarding another one of Dan O'Brien's mistakes (like Tony Womack or David Williams)—Cormier was a mistake of his own made during the desperate stretch of last summer, and a player whose deal he had to extend to get past Cormier's ten-and-five rights. That Krivsky was willing to sink this particular cost was perhaps characteristically bold, but Reds fans should also hope that it wound up being educational. In his place, getting down to only two lefties and bringing up Salmon now that he's about as ready as he's every going to be provides the pen with better talent as well as better balance. As I noted in this year's book, Salmon throws hard, but it looks like he's being a lot more consistent with his slider this year, and if he can keep that up, he's an improvement on the Saarloos and Santos types, instead giving them a power righthander beyond Coffey.

Big Klu
04-30-2007, 04:29 PM
Bob Howsam let Mike Caldwell get away, that was something, Cody Ross? That's just another tear in a salted sea.

WOY,

Was Bob Howsam also responsible for allowing Jouquin Andujar to get away?

redsmetz
04-30-2007, 04:31 PM
WOY,

Was Bob Howsam also responsible for allowing Jouquin Andujar to get away?

He was trade in October, 1975, so I would say yes, but WOY will know for sure.

MaineRed
04-30-2007, 04:43 PM
I never understood why Wayne bent over backwards to accomodate Cormier. It the trade dies, so what? It's not as if Cormier was an impact reliever

I know stats don't mean anything when you don't want them to but wasn't Cormier leading NL relievers in ERA at the time of his trade to the Reds? If we had edged out the Cards for the division we might have looked at that pick-up and said we couldn't have done it without him. But it didn't work out.

The Reds needed bullpen help and Wayne ponied up a couple of million bucks to get the guy leading the league in the ERA for the stretch run. There is no denying that it didn't work. Cormier didn't continue his success, the Reds missed the play-offs and then this year the team was forced to give Cormier a shot to prove himself.

This move is easy to bash but the Reds JUST missed the play-offs last season behind the team that went onto to win it behind the immortal Jeff Weaver. And we all know what Redszone would have said if WK picked up Jeff Weaver.

Redsland
04-30-2007, 04:47 PM
If Wayne is basing his opinions of relievers on their ERAs, then we've got bigger problems than I thought.

Though that would certainly explain why he was so gung ho about Gary Majewski.

westofyou
04-30-2007, 04:49 PM
WOY,

Was Bob Howsam also responsible for allowing Jouquin Andujar to get away?

He and Sparky (and Shepard to an extent) As Herzog said Andujar was a player that was full of passion and emotion, he also was a fragile psyche and well Anderson was never a pitchers manager or a fan of coddling personalities, the BRM was full of personalities, but never a head case one, if there was he generally was jettisoned ala Alex Johnson, Grimsley and Andujar. Sparky thought Andijar was a loose cannon and he didn't want to deal with his eratic behavior, and his eratic srike to walk ratio which was 1- 1 essentially with a 92/93 for Indy in 1974

In retrospect it's a noticeable loss that effects the teams makeup in the late 70's, especially when looking at the pitching. But the hidden thing is whether or not the way Anderson handled players and the team was what helped narrow the focus of the BRM and make them what they were, perhaps jettisoning the problem players was the best way the Reds could deal with keeping themselves one step away from another layer of problems that lay between a team and its goals.

westofyou
04-30-2007, 04:54 PM
If Wayne is basing his opinions of relievers on their ERAs, then we've got bigger problems than I thought.

Though that would certainly explain why he was so gung ho about Gary Majewski.

I always thought it was his low HR rate allowed that gave Wayne his case of Puppy Love, since GM turned into a reliever in 2002 he has allowed 22 HR's in roughly around 580 IP. That's one every 26 Innings pitched. That is something that would be nice fit in theory in the GAB.

flyer85
04-30-2007, 05:04 PM
If WK fell in love with Majik due to his HR rate(which was low) he would have had to to have done it while ignoring his high BB rate, his very low K rate for a reliever and serious issues of being overworked by Frank Robinson,

Big Klu
04-30-2007, 05:08 PM
He and Sparky (and Shepard to an extent) As Herzog said Andujar was a player that was full of passion and emotion, he also was a fragile psyche and well Anderson was never a pitchers manager or a fan of coddling personalities, the BRM was full of personalities, but never a head case one, if there was he generally was jettisoned ala Alex Johnson, Grimsley and Andujar. Sparky thought Andijar was a loose cannon and he didn't want to deal with his eratic behavior, and his eratic srike to walk ratio which was 1- 1 essentially with a 92/93 for Indy in 1974

In retrospect it's a noticeable loss that effects the teams makeup in the late 70's, especially when looking at the pitching. But the hidden thing is whether or not the way Anderson handled players and the team was what helped narrow the focus of the BRM and make them what they were, perhaps jettisoning the problem players was the best way the Reds could deal with keeping themselves one step away from another layer of problems that lay between a team and its goals.




Did the fact that Mario Soto was also a pitcher with passion and emotion play into the decision? I always got the feeling that management didn't want to deal with two hot-headed Dominicans on the same pitching staff.

REDREAD
04-30-2007, 06:01 PM
I know stats don't mean anything when you don't want them to but wasn't Cormier leading NL relievers in ERA at the time of his trade to the Reds? If we had edged out the Cards for the division we might have looked at that pick-up and said we couldn't have done it without him. But it didn't work out.


ERA isn't the right stat to use for relivers that only pitch a fraction of an inning at a time. Their ERA is largely a function of who comes in after them.
Cormier was used to just face one or two batters at a time.. Not good to use ERA as a measuring stick.. Look at the guy's age, other stats. People posted pretty compelling stat arguements at the time of the trade that Cormier was not a good pickup.

The majority of posters on this site did not think that Cormier was going to be a difference maker last year.





This move is easy to bash but the Reds JUST missed the play-offs last season behind the team that went onto to win it behind the immortal Jeff Weaver. And we all know what Redszone would have said if WK picked up Jeff Weaver.

It's an easy bash because it was a dumb move. If the Reds didn't extend Cormier, then maybe it's ok.. But Wayne let Cormier bully him into picking up his option. Foolish, given Cormeir's age.

You bring up Weaver. That's different. I wouldn't have minded if the Reds took a flyer on Weaver to replace Milton in the rotation, and I even said it at the time. Weaver was waiver wire fodder that could be picked up for the minimum (Angels paying his salary), and there was no commitment beyond one year. If he stunk worse than Milton, you could just cut bait.

TRF
04-30-2007, 06:10 PM
Any takers on who ends up with the better Major League career: Salmon or Majewski?

pheh. He should have been up with the Reds last September.

redsmetz
04-30-2007, 07:26 PM
ERA isn't the right stat to use for relivers that only pitch a fraction of an inning at a time. Their ERA is largely a function of who comes in after them.
Cormier was used to just face one or two batters at a time.. Not good to use ERA as a measuring stick.. Look at the guy's age, other stats. People posted pretty compelling stat arguements at the time of the trade that Cormier was not a good pickup.

The majority of posters on this site did not think that Cormier was going to be a difference maker last year.





It's an easy bash because it was a dumb move. If the Reds didn't extend Cormier, then maybe it's ok.. But Wayne let Cormier bully him into picking up his option. Foolish, given Cormeir's age.

You bring up Weaver. That's different. I wouldn't have minded if the Reds took a flyer on Weaver to replace Milton in the rotation, and I even said it at the time. Weaver was waiver wire fodder that could be picked up for the minimum (Angels paying his salary), and there was no commitment beyond one year. If he stunk worse than Milton, you could just cut bait.

Oh, good Lord, if we had picked up Weaver after the season he'd started with, the howling here would have been long and loud. Long and loud!

I swear too many folks around here think WK is a dimwit. Bullied into picking up his option? If the trade was going to be made, it was the only way he could be acquired because he had 10/5 rights. It was a gamble taken and most likely lost (although, again, that remains to be seen in the next week or so).

Chip R
04-30-2007, 08:45 PM
Oh, good Lord, if we had picked up Weaver after the season he'd started with, the howling here would have been long and loud. Long and loud!

I swear too many folks around here think WK is a dimwit. Bullied into picking up his option? If the trade was going to be made, it was the only way he could be acquired because he had 10/5 rights. It was a gamble taken and most likely lost (although, again, that remains to be seen in the next week or so).


Sure it would have. And I'll bet that Weaver wouldn't have had near the success here that he did in StL. He's not exactly setting the world on fire in SEA now is he?

As for Cormier, I don't know if Wayne got bullied. I prefer "suckered". Yeah, he took a gamble. But there are gambles and then there's hitting on 19. One's a risk and the other is just patently stupid.

jojo
04-30-2007, 09:03 PM
ERA isn't the right stat to use for relivers that only pitch a fraction of an inning at a time. Their ERA is largely a function of who comes in after them.

Cormier was used to just face one or two batters at a time.. Not good to use ERA as a measuring stick.. Look at the guy's age, other stats. People posted pretty compelling stat arguements at the time of the trade that Cormier was not a good pickup..

I'd take it a step farther and suggest ERA isn't the right stat to use for ANY pitcher....


I hindsight, I wonder how uch of the Cormier trade was about exciting the fanbase and getting butts in the seats (wow! the Reds just picked up the leading ERA guy for the pen!!!!) than it was about upgrading the bullpen.

remdog
04-30-2007, 10:14 PM
Redsmetz:

As what point are you willing to be objective, even critical, of Krivsky?

Since you weren't here at the time, I'll let you know that I was a backer of naming Krivsky as GM when O'Brien got the job. And, I'm still of the opinion that the guy can and will become a good GM. It's just that his 'on the job training' has been 'bumpy', to say the least. I may be a backer of his but it doesn't prevent me from acknowledgeing the fact that he's made less than astute moves in a number of cases.

Rem

redsmetz
04-30-2007, 11:11 PM
Redsmetz:

As what point are you willing to be objective, even critical, of Krivsky?

Since you weren't here at the time, I'll let you know that I was a backer of naming Krivsky as GM when O'Brien got the job. And, I'm still of the opinion that the guy can and will become a good GM. It's just that his 'on the job training' has been 'bumpy', to say the least. I may be a backer of his but it doesn't prevent me from acknowledgeing the fact that he's made less than astute moves in a number of cases.

Rem

I'm not against saying that we haven't won on every move, but frankly, I think rebuilding a team is a work in progress. We've had competing interests really since he's walked through the door - a move itself which through MLB's absolute incompetence, happened just shortly before Spring Training started last year (what on earth took so long to transfer the ownership???).

The competing interests - putting a competitive team on the field now to draw current fans, thirsty for a winning season for about 10 years. That versus, rebuilding the organization and making this club competitive for the long haul and doing so without sacrificing your top prospects.

I think there have been moves made which were done because there was a hope they will improve the club, even if only incrementally. They have worked within tight constricts of heavy contracts from the previous regimes (Milton's; just a bad signing and Griffey's, which didn't work out as most had hoped).

I think he took chances on someone like Cody Ross and then had the ubiquitous roster crunch and, by his own admission, moved him to Florida so Ross wouldn't have to sit and wait another 10 days to clear waivers. I think he moved Milton to the DL to move him to the 5th spot, improving the club by doing that, without humilating Milton. Decent things to do for players.

Some moves have been by the seat of the pants and the overall results may not be known for years. But for the folks in Redsland who insist on nothing but NOW, that's not good enough and the man's a numbskull.

MaineRed
05-01-2007, 01:26 PM
Oh, good Lord, if we had picked up Weaver after the season he'd started with, the howling here would have been long and loud. Long and loud!

I swear too many folks around here think WK is a dimwit. Bullied into picking up his option? If the trade was going to be made, it was the only way he could be acquired because he had 10/5 rights. It was a gamble taken and most likely lost (although, again, that remains to be seen in the next week or so).

It was a gamble but people act as if we lost out on Jake Peavy by giving Cormier that contract. I don't think anyone is arguing that it was an "astute" move but I don't think it was as franchise crippling as some make it out to be. Sure a million here, two there, etc, etc, adds up. Again, no one is going to deny that but every team makes these "mistakes". When you aren't working on a 200 million dollar budget, and even if you are, filling out a roster full of guys who give the majority of fans confidence is tough. I know it is easy for folks here to just say a young guy with a pulse is better than someone like Cormier but it isn't that easy. And we've seen how past redszone favorite relievers have fared. They all eventually get run out of town for one reason or another.

I see no problem in critiquing Krivsky but some have him roasting over the coals for some minor mistakes that every GM makes from time to time, even the good ones. People will point to Billy Beane as some genius but he traded us Aaron Harrang. If that trade was done the other way around what would we say?

Calling for WK to be fired is a joke. The man is just getting started. To pretend he is going to sink the ship below where it was when he got here is laughable. He trades away Denorifia, Kearns, Lopez and he gives Cormier some cash to come here and people want him sent packing? The man who locked up Harrang and Arroyo and brought in Hamilton needs to go? Please.

remdog
05-01-2007, 01:55 PM
I'm not against saying that we haven't won on every move, but frankly, I think rebuilding a team is a work in progress. We've had competing interests really since he's walked through the door - a move itself which through MLB's absolute incompetence, happened just shortly before Spring Training started last year (what on earth took so long to transfer the ownership???).

The competing interests - putting a competitive team on the field now to draw current fans, thirsty for a winning season for about 10 years. That versus, rebuilding the organization and making this club competitive for the long haul and doing so without sacrificing your top prospects.

I think there have been moves made which were done because there was a hope they will improve the club, even if only incrementally. They have worked within tight constricts of heavy contracts from the previous regimes (Milton's; just a bad signing and Griffey's, which didn't work out as most had hoped).

I think he took chances on someone like Cody Ross and then had the ubiquitous roster crunch and, by his own admission, moved him to Florida so Ross wouldn't have to sit and wait another 10 days to clear waivers. I think he moved Milton to the DL to move him to the 5th spot, improving the club by doing that, without humilating Milton. Decent things to do for players.

Some moves have been by the seat of the pants and the overall results may not be known for years. But for the folks in Redsland who insist on nothing but NOW, that's not good enough and the man's a numbskull.

Well, that's an (apologetic) answer but you didn't really answer the question which was: at what point are you willing to be objective, even critical of Krivsky?

Actually, in an obtuse fashion you did answer the question: not now, not yet, maybe never. (shrug)

Rem

redsmetz
05-01-2007, 02:04 PM
Well, that's an (apologetic) answer but you didn't really answer the question which was: at what point are you willing to be objective, even critical of Krivsky?

Actually, in an obtuse fashion you did answer the question: not now, not yet, maybe never. (shrug)

Rem

Oh well - I guess you're my opposite. I think I'll just decide to enjoy the team and let other folks lose sleep over whether WK is destroying the club or not. Too much wasted energy, IMO.

Ltlabner
05-01-2007, 02:11 PM
Well, that's an (apologetic) answer but you didn't really answer the question which was: at what point are you willing to be objective, even critical of Krivsky?

Actually, in an obtuse fashion you did answer the question: not now, not yet, maybe never. (shrug)

Rem

Because Redsmetz's opinion of WK's performance does not agree with yours, does it follow that he is not objective, even critical?

Being overally negative doesn't automatically mean you were reasonable and logical to get to that point (not saying that you are negative). Neither does being overally postive automatically mean you are head in the sand and irrational to get to that point (not saying Redsmetz is positive).

(shrug) world famous shrug, all rights reserved, Remdog, in the year of our lord 2007. Trademarks where applicable.

redsmetz
05-01-2007, 02:45 PM
Now that I've had a chance to turn down my knob a little, I'll add this bit. Rather than being an apologist for Wayne Krivsky, I've often said that the end result of any give trade or series of trades can't be known very well in the short run. Sometimes you can't know for years. Krivsky's been on the job for just a little more than a year.

Perhaps many of these trades will just look horrific in the years to come. Maybe five years from now, the farm system will be in shambles. I think there have been some moves which have been by the seat of the pants. Again, though, I think some of that type have been to meet one or the other of the two competing thrusts for this club (competitive team on the field now to keep fans coming vs. building a stronger and more productive system to keep the long term health of the ML club good).

My vehemence is that too often folks act like Krivsky and Narron are total idiots. I don't think they are. I think they're fairly smart baseball guys who know a thing or two about what they're doing. Are they perfect? Of course not! We may well look back on one more or another and think "how'd we let that guy go?". Many of you have been here long enough to hear those stories. They're as old as the game. Cincinnati certainly has had their share of those (Joe Adcock and Curt Flood are two right off the top of my head).

But I was serious about remembering this is a game to be enjoyed. I'd like to keep that paramount personally. I suspect those with whom I disagree do too.

REDREAD
05-01-2007, 02:45 PM
Oh, good Lord, if we had picked up Weaver after the season he'd started with, the howling here would have been long and loud. Long and loud!

I swear too many folks around here think WK is a dimwit. Bullied into picking up his option? If the trade was going to be made, it was the only way he could be acquired because he had 10/5 rights. It was a gamble taken and most likely lost (although, again, that remains to be seen in the next week or so).

I do agree that most of the board would've complained if Weaver was picked up. I was only speaking for myself. IMO, it would've been worth picking up Weaver with the intent of being a possible replacement for Milton.

My point about Cormier is that Wayne made the trade. Ok.. Now Cormier threatens to veto the trade if his option isn't picked up. At this point, Wayne should realized that it's just not worth about 3-3.5 million to have Cormier for the rest of the year. That's enough to get a decent player for 2007..
I know I'm beating a dead horse with this example, but Chad Bradford signed for 3 years for 10 million.. So we could've had Bradford this year instead of getting Cormier or signing Stanton. He would've been a difference maker. Cormier and Stanton are not difference makers.

bucksfan2
05-01-2007, 02:49 PM
There is a reason that Krivsky has made some many moves since he came to cincinnati. He is basically trying to change the losing culture that this club has had over the past 5 seasons. He inherited a poorly constructed club and has done what he can to make it a better baseball team. While some of the moves/trades have led to intense debate there is no doubt in my mind that Krivsky is building a team that he feels will be competitive for the years to come. If this means I will have to live with the likes of Cormier or Stanton or Conine for a year or so then so be it.

Team Clark
05-01-2007, 03:02 PM
Now that I've had a chance to turn down my knob a little, I'll add this bit. Rather than being an apologist for Wayne Krivsky, I've often said that the end result of any give trade or series of trades can't be known very well in the short run. Sometimes you can't know for years. Krivsky's been on the job for just a little more than a year.

Perhaps many of these trades will just look horrific in the years to come. Maybe five years from now, the farm system will be in shambles. I think there have been some moves which have been by the seat of the pants. Again, though, I think some of that type have been to meet one or the other of the two competing thrusts for this club (competitive team on the field now to keep fans coming vs. building a stronger and more productive system to keep the long term health of the ML club good).

My vehemence is that too often folks act like Krivsky and Narron are total idiots. I don't think they are. I think they're fairly smart baseball guys who know a thing or two about what they're doing. Are they perfect? Of course not! We may well look back on one more or another and think "how'd we let that guy go?". Many of you have been here long enough to hear those stories. They're as old as the game. Cincinnati certainly has had their share of those (Joe Adcock and Curt Flood are two right off the top of my head).

But I was serious about remembering this is a game to be enjoyed. I'd like to keep that paramount personally. I suspect those with whom I disagree do too.

:laugh: Good stuff. I would love to challenge a vast majority of the Nay Sayers to jump in the dugout or take the reigns. Knowing exactly how hard it is I know very few would actually have success. It's one thing to critique the day after or while watching TV. It's another when the game is going full speed. I'd venture to say most of the people who "think" they know couldn't make the right call on bunt coverages. Know exactly when to get the bullpen ready and when to have their bench ready. Sounds easy but it's not MLB the SHOW for PS3.

TRF
05-01-2007, 04:42 PM
Now that I've had a chance to turn down my knob a little, I'll add this bit. Rather than being an apologist for Wayne Krivsky, I've often said that the end result of any give trade or series of trades can't be known very well in the short run. Sometimes you can't know for years. Krivsky's been on the job for just a little more than a year.


Except not every move is a trade. some of his FA signings are just as bizarre, and they don't have long term implications, but rather single season ones.

One Joe Freaking Mays springs to mind.

jimbo
05-01-2007, 05:01 PM
Except not every move is a trade. some of his FA signings are just as bizarre, and they don't have long term implications, but rather single season ones.

One Joe Freaking Mays springs to mind.

I don't see what was bizarre at all about giving Mays a chance. The Reds were desperate for some 5th starter help and they gave him a chance. It wasn't like they left him in that spot for the entire season. It didn't work out, but it wasn't bizarre at all. Geez, this isn't an exact science.

redsmetz
05-01-2007, 05:01 PM
Except not every move is a trade. some of his FA signings are just as bizarre, and they don't have long term implications, but rather single season ones.

One Joe Freaking Mays springs to mind.

Trades, free agency signings. He was one player who was one little hiccup. We can say Estaban Yan, we can any number of players. He tried, they didn't work out. Nothing bizarre about that.

lollipopcurve
05-01-2007, 05:24 PM
If you're looking for a GM whose every move works out, you'll be looking till you die.

AmarilloRed
05-02-2007, 01:27 AM
Salmon pitched pretty well tonight.Lets see if he can continue to pitch well.

George Anderson
05-02-2007, 02:13 AM
Did the fact that Mario Soto was also a pitcher with passion and emotion play into the decision? I always got the feeling that management didn't want to deal with two hot-headed Dominicans on the same pitching staff.

I think what kept Soto in the Reds system was he didnt play for Vern Rapp at Indianapolis. IMO I can see Rapp advising Sparky and the Reds to part ways with Andujar and his temper, its also possible that Rapp would later on advise the Reds to part with Soto and his temper or any other character flaw Vern may not of liked. Vern Rapp was not an easy manager to play for, its a good possibility he butted heads with Andujar and more than likely if he had the opportunity, he would have butted heads also with a young Soto.

AmarilloRed
05-02-2007, 02:28 PM
Right now,I would say Salmon is a very considerable upgrade from Cormier. Brad Salmon blows him away, even after only 1 game.:dancingco

M2
05-02-2007, 02:34 PM
I don't see what was bizarre at all about giving Mays a chance. The Reds were desperate for some 5th starter help and they gave him a chance. It wasn't like they left him in that spot for the entire season. It didn't work out, but it wasn't bizarre at all. Geez, this isn't an exact science.

It was exact science with Joe Mays. Anyone who thought that was going to work out wasn't paying attention.

jimbo
05-02-2007, 02:40 PM
It was exact science with Joe Mays. Anyone who thought that was going to work out wasn't paying attention.

It's too bad that the rest of us don't have it all figured out like yourself. :rolleyes:

BRM
05-02-2007, 02:41 PM
It's too bad that the rest of us don't have it all figured out like yourself. :rolleyes:

Joe Mays had a long track record of suckitude before arriving in Cincinnati. It was certainly no surprise when he tanked.

jimbo
05-02-2007, 02:55 PM
Joe Mays had a long track record of suckitude before arriving in Cincinnati. It was certainly no surprise when he tanked.

I don't necessarily disagree. All I'm saying is that they needed help at the back of the rotation and it's not crazy at all to give a guy who has had some limited past success a chance. You never know when a change in scenery or pitching coach will help. We are talking a 5th starter here, nothing more. Nobody expected the next Cy Young.

M2
05-02-2007, 03:00 PM
It's too bad that the rest of us don't have it all figured out like yourself. :rolleyes:

Most everybody had that one called. It's not that I'm especially prescient. It was especially clueless for anyone who missed it.

For the record, at the time I viewed Mays as a short-term mistake Krivsky was inevitably going to make and I was so damn happy to see the franchise cut Dave Williams that the move never bothered me much. However, most of the conscious world knew it was doomed to failure and there was never any sane argument for why Mays deserved a try.

HokieRed
05-02-2007, 03:13 PM
Justin Germano is 4-0 with Portland, 1.69 ERA. Just pitched 8 scoreless in his last outing. Krivsky's mishandling of the Cormier deal has several facets. He could have brought up Salmon instead of going to get Cormier, he overextended Cormier's contract, and he gave up a potential back of the rotation starter--Germano--for essentially nothing. He needs to get over this excessive infatuation with "veteran presence."

jimbo
05-02-2007, 04:13 PM
Justin Germano is 4-0 with Portland, 1.69 ERA. Just pitched 8 scoreless in his last outing. Krivsky's mishandling of the Cormier deal has several facets. He could have brought up Salmon instead of going to get Cormier, he overextended Cormier's contract, and he gave up a potential back of the rotation starter--Germano--for essentially nothing. He needs to get over this excessive infatuation with "veteran presence."

Every wonder why 3 different organizations have given up on Germano? He has very mediocre stuff and the Reds are not the only ones who have recognized that. Success in the minors does not always equate to success in the majors.

redsupport
05-02-2007, 04:29 PM
but Joe Mays becomes an integral part of the Reds fabled lore, residing somewhere in performance between Pete Smith and Howie Nunn

TRF
05-02-2007, 05:03 PM
Every wonder why 3 different organizations have given up on Germano? He has very mediocre stuff and the Reds are not the only ones who have recognized that. Success in the minors does not always equate to success in the majors.

You ever wonder why three different organizations have gone after the guy? He's got great control, and doesn't walk a lot of batters. He's not a flyball pitcher.

Germano is better than Cormier, better than Milton.

I'm not weeping that he's gone. In fact, I could care less. It's not about who was traded, it's about the return.

Mays. Yan. Kim. Franklin. Maj. Cormier.

Bust
Bust
Bust
Bust
Bust
Bust

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

redsupport
05-02-2007, 05:13 PM
dont forget johnson another stalwart performer at the end of the year and of course the warren spahn of the staff michalik

GOREDSGO32
05-02-2007, 07:20 PM
Germano is a prototypical "AAAA" guy. Seems like we've had a lot of them. Michalak, Larson, Denorfia (I'm sure I'll get bashed for that one). He gets hammered in the majors, but as soon as he gets back to AAA he dominates. That's just the way these things go.

As for the Krivsky trade bashing, I don't agree. We took chances signing players and trying to get some to stick, and a lot didn't, and some came through. I heard crap for two years about Aurilia, but he was solid - Conine seems to fit that mold. It's not like there's some magic well of players we can get a young great player instead for. We sign them, or sign nothing. Something is better than nothing in these cases.

Dissecting Kriv's trade - I'm sorry but us getting Arroyo for Pena has outweighed all other mistakes he may have made combined.

mth123
05-02-2007, 09:47 PM
The Reds needed a guy and I really had no problem giving Mays a try. The options were all awful at the time. The problem I had was that they ran him out there 4 times as a starter. If I recall he had a decent long relief outing when he arrived and then a bad start. He should have gotten no more than 1 more turn.