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creek14
04-29-2007, 06:05 PM
So this sad and untimely death of Josh Hancock got me thinking about predetermination. Basically (and not trying to sound crude) but when your number is up, is it up?

If Josh was still with the Reds would be still be alive? Or was today his day to die? He would have been in Pittsburgh with the Reds and not driving himself. Maybe he would have been in a cab and it wrecked.

And what about Lidle? If he had been with the Reds he wouldn't have been flying a plane that day in NYC. Or would he have crashed out of some municipal airport in KY.

So did these deaths happen due to a long string of events, or was it just the day they were set to die?

I can think of a couple close calls I probably shouldn't have survived. Was it luck or fate that spared me?

HumnHilghtFreel
04-29-2007, 06:23 PM
These are the kinds of things that I think about allll the time.

It's weird to me to say "well, this was so and so's greater plan." It's intriguing though, maybe it all is just a grand scheme, but I don't think that is what it is. I think we all choose the paths that take us to wherever we end up. It'd be a boring show for the big man upstairs if he always knew how the story was going to end.

Redsland
04-29-2007, 08:05 PM
Stephen Hawking's name came up in another thread recently, about a newly found planet and the likelihood that humans might someday visit it.

Hawking has spoken at length about determinism, thanks in part to his role in helping formulate a Grand Unified Theory that would reduce the workings of the universe to a set of equations. These equations, some think, would suggest that free will is an illusion, since outcomes could be determined merely by knowing the initial conditions and then applying the proper equation.

Hawking doesn't buy that. He's even stated that one of the things he's noticed about people who believe in predestination is that they still look both ways before crossing the street.

GAC
04-29-2007, 09:28 PM
Hawking doesn't buy that. He's even stated that one of the things he's noticed about people who believe in predestination is that they still look both ways before crossing the street.

Because it doesn't mean that you then act foolishly with your life.

I personally believe that God obviously knows the day you'll die (omniscience); but he doesn't set that day. I'd state more on the subject matter, but it then would become a religious thread. ;)

dman
04-29-2007, 09:44 PM
Creek, I have to chime in on this one. The Highway Patrol has a very successful traffic enforcement program called LifeStat 1.0 where we are attempting to reduce traffic related deaths in Ohio to 1 per 100 million vehicle miles traveled in Ohio by the end of this year.

Part of that program has us putting troopers in the areas where we have the most fatal crashes, no matter how much, or in some cases how little traffic passes through the area.

I want to concentrate on that second part of the last paragraph, the how little traffic passes through. I was at a meeting last week listening to the district commander tear apart some of his post commanders' efforts because people were still getting killed on these roads, even though troopers were actively patrolling these roads when the fatal crashes occurred. In one instance, there was a trooper that passed by a soon to be victim and not even 5 minutes later was trying, albeit unsuccessfully, to give CPR until volunteer medics could be called out.

So, a short answer to a long explanation, is I believe when your time is up, then your time is up, with certain exceptions thrown in.

I do however, believe that there are choices and actions we can make to keep ourselves out of harms way and keep our number from being called earlier than what it's supposed to.

15fan
04-29-2007, 11:15 PM
If you stop and think about the sequence of events that has unfolded since the beginning of time, it's rather humbling. The odds of any of us even occupying a slot in the space-time continuum is less likely than winning mega millions (or powerball) 100 times in a row.

I'm only here because (1) my father survived a horrific car crash only because he wasn't wearing his seatbelt, and (2) my mother had a miscarriage with her first pregnancy. And those are just two things that happened to my parents. Go back generation after generation after generation and any of us can start to see that we are here despite the odds.

I believe in free will. But what's fascinating is how the combination of random events as well as conscientious decisions has combined to produce the present.

I'd have to say that dman's last 2 lines do a pretty good job of summing up my take on things, too.

HumnHilghtFreel
04-29-2007, 11:20 PM
If you stop and think about the sequence of events that has unfolded since the beginning of time, it's rather humbling. The odds of any of us even occupying a slot in the space-time continuum is less likely than winning mega millions (or powerball) 100 times in a row.

I'm only here because (1) my father survived a horrific car crash only because he wasn't wearing his seatbelt, and (2) my mother had a miscarriage with her first pregnancy. And those are just two things that happened to my parents. Go back generation after generation after generation and any of us can start to see that we are here despite the odds.

I believe in free will. But what's fascinating is how the combination of random events as well as conscientious decisions has combined to produce the present.

I'd have to say that dman's last 2 lines do a pretty good job of summing up my take on things, too.

My history teacher in highschool talked about this quite a bit.

He always talked about how his grandfather served in WWII and had he ever been one step in the wrong direction, we might not be getting this lecture.

It really is mindblowing to sit and think back on the chronology of life.

IslandRed
04-29-2007, 11:32 PM
He always talked about how his grandfather served in WWII and had he ever been one step in the wrong direction, we might not be getting this lecture.

That reminds me of the famous Civil War historian Bruce Catton writing about the trajectory of a bullet and the trajectory of a man.

I agree with GAC, God may know it but we don't. Whether it's nine months or 90 years, it's all a blink of an eye in the big picture. All we can do is live life the best we can. And hopefully leave the world just a little bit better, in some tiny way, for our being here.

OldRightHander
04-29-2007, 11:44 PM
Without taking this too far into a religious thread, I do believe that to a certain degree your number comes up and there's not a whole lot you can do about it. That doesn't mean that we can't take reasonable precautions in order to avoid certain types of deaths. I'm not likely to die in a skydiving accident if I don't skydive. On the other hand, death is a natural part of life that none of us can avoid indefinitely. Our part, and this is where this post could get dangerously close to a religious one, is simply to be ready for the inevitable. Life is full of a certain amount of randomness that is beyond our control. Perhaps Josh's death was along those lines, a case of wrong place in the wrong time. A couple minutes later or earlier along that stretch of road and he possibly might have avoided the accident all together. Or if there hadn't been the earlier accident that the wrecker was responding to, he would not have had anything there to run into.

Now whether or not he still would have died some other way is a question whose answer depends to a large part on whatever faith you adhere to. It's probably not something we have the answer to now, or will ever come close to figuring out in this lifetime. All we can do is be ready, and I hope Josh was.

Yachtzee
04-30-2007, 12:28 AM
They just do. Now turn off the light and get to sleep. It's way past your bedtime. ;)

George Foster
04-30-2007, 12:38 AM
A couple of years ago, on vacation, I was pissed because my family was taking so long at a rest area. It took them forever to go pee, wash their hands, etc. 20 miles down the road, we came upon a horrible accident, before the police had a chance to get there. Made me think about if we left the rest area when I wanted to, what would of happened?

George Foster
04-30-2007, 12:42 AM
Last year in Lexington, a 8 month pregnant lady had just parked her car and was walking to work down the side walk. She was walking beside a 5 floor parking structure when a 15ft by 10ft piece of concreate fell from the 3rd floor killing her and her child instantly. Man....if she would of just checked her hair in the rear view mirror for 5 seconds, or brushed her teeth for 5 more seconds, etc., she would be alive today. Horrible story.

harangatang
04-30-2007, 12:52 AM
All I can say is live your life like Ryan Freel plays baseball. You never know what's coming tomorrow.

Ron Madden
04-30-2007, 04:13 AM
I believe our days are numbered.

We ourselves or others can lessen those numbers but we can't add to them.

I just beliieve that.

RFS62
04-30-2007, 08:49 AM
If you've read any Castenada, you might be familiar with a concept he discussed with Don Juan.

"Using death as an advisor".

Basically, it's imagining that today would be your last day on earth, and you know it.

How differently we'd approach each passing moment. There would be no time for petty moods. No time for inconsequential arguments over material things. No time for all the trappings of modern society which get in our way, each and every day.

There would only be time for the essence of life. Our relationships with our loved ones. Our spiritual lives, or lack thereof.

How powerful it would be to live life like that. The only thing we really have any control over is the "now". Worrying about the future or agonizing over the past disappears.

The next time you want to blow your horn at someone in traffic or get angry at someone's petty or ignorant actions, use death as your advisor. I'll bet your mood changes immediately.

RedFanAlways1966
04-30-2007, 08:51 AM
You should always check your biorhythm chart before doing anything!!

GAC
04-30-2007, 09:21 AM
All I know is I never agreed with Neil Young who sang "It's better to burn out then fade away." Lennon once responded "If you believe that, then why haven't you done it?"

And for a long time, Townsend wouldn't sing the lyrics from My Generation "Hope I die before I get old."

Ahh youth. What little we knew and understood back then. I simply laugh within myself when my teens seem to think they know it all and think we adults are so naive.

Life comes at you full circle. Think about it.... you're born in diapers, with no teeth, while babbling and drooling all over yourself. And that's pretty much how you end up at the end of your life too. :lol:

Thank God life isn't like in those Final Destination movies where one cheats death, who then somehow cops an attitude and comes after you.

gonelong
04-30-2007, 09:28 AM
I don't believe in destiny. You are in control of your life, act accordingly.

GL

zombielady
04-30-2007, 11:29 AM
a little bit of fate... a little bit of luck... a few fortunate mistakes, and the occasional unfortunate blessing... yes I meant to say it that way...

Reds Freak
04-30-2007, 11:48 AM
If you've read any Castenada, you might be familiar with a concept he discussed with Don Juan.

"Using death as an advisor".

Basically, it's imagining that today would be your last day on earth, and you know it.

How differently we'd approach each passing moment. There would be no time for petty moods. No time for inconsequential arguments over material things. No time for all the trappings of modern society which get in our way, each and every day.

There would only be time for the essence of life. Our relationships with our loved ones. Our spiritual lives, or lack thereof.

How powerful it would be to live life like that. The only thing we really have any control over is the "now". Worrying about the future or agonizing over the past disappears.

The next time you want to blow your horn at someone in traffic or get angry at someone's petty or ignorant actions, use death as your advisor. I'll bet your mood changes immediately.

Wonderful post RFS..I've read your words a number of times admiring that advice...:thumbup:

I'm a pretty easy going guy and I have no patience for people who get into these stupid arguments over nothing or worry about petty things. I'm like that today because of one event. Back in high school, my friends and myself were good friends with this group of girls. To make a long story short, one of my friends said something stupid to one of the girls and it turned into this ridiculous argument and none of us spoke to those girls again. About six months later, I picked up the newspaper in the morning and found that one of those girls had died in a car accident. I was shocked, rereading the words hoping that I would wake up from an awful nightmare. But it didn't change the outcome and I was extremely upset at myself for allowing a stupid argument ruin a friendship. And now that friend was gone. I've never been the same since...

Sea Ray
04-30-2007, 12:40 PM
I don't believe in destiny. You are in control of your life, act accordingly.

GL

I agree. I don't think smokers are predetermined at birth to die sooner than non smokers. We are given great latitudes by our Creator and we live with those consequences.

What happened to Josh Hancock is tragic but it sounds like it happened because he wasn't paying attention. This tragedy was well within his control. Shows just how important it is to keep your wits about you at all times when getting behind a wheel.

registerthis
04-30-2007, 03:09 PM
Freewill?

You can choose not to decide, and still have made a choice.
-N. Peart

I am familiar with causal determinism, and I don't particularly buy it. I actually had a rather lengthy message board discussion with someone else about this awhile back.

Which shows what a fun guy I am to be around...

texasdave
04-30-2007, 03:26 PM
Grand Unified Theory is a waste of time. So is String Theory. If physicists wish to study something important they should spend more time researching Sock Theory. I would be willing to wager they would find time warps, worm holes and all sorts of passages to alternate universes inside dryers. That is the only rational explanation to all the socks that end up missing. The scary part is that if someone was brave enough to enter my dryer and travel through one of those esoteric passageways, they would stumble upon a middle-aged, overweight, slightly balding Reds fan who was wearing one black sock and one blue sock and who looks a lot like me. Talk about your final frontier. :alien:

harangatang
04-30-2007, 06:15 PM
Just throwing out some what if scenarios here.

What would have happened if Carl Lindner was still the Reds owner today? Would O'Brien still be the GM?

What would have happened if Wayne Krivsky was hired over Dan O'Brien under Lindner?

What would have happened if Jim Beattie was hired over Wayne Krivsky under Castellini? Would Jim have released Josh?

What would have have happened if Todd Jones wasn't released by the Devil Rays and then signed with Reds to be traded for Josh in 2004? Would Josh still be in Philly instead of going to the Reds and then the Cardinals?

What would have happened if Josh wouldn't have shown up to Spring Training last year overweight for the Reds to then be released and signed with St. Louis?

George Foster
04-30-2007, 09:51 PM
What would have happened if Josh wouldn't have shown up to Spring Training last year overweight for the Reds to then be released and signed with St. Louis?

I really believe he would still be alive today. Would he be a Red? Who knows, but he would not have been cut by the Reds so soon, if he pitched the same for the Reds as he did the Cards, he would have been on the roster all year for the Reds. If he got cut late in Spring Training 2006, the odds are he would of been picked up by another team other than St. Louis, because they would of invited another pitcher to their Spring Training.