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WVRed
04-29-2007, 09:05 PM
Title says it all.

I'm going with B. For the value of the picks, you can't criticize Marvin. Leon Hall, Jonathan Joseph, and Madieu Williams is going to make up a very lights out secondary hopefully by the end of the year. I wasn't too thrilled with the Irons pick at first, but with the average lifespan of running backs in the league, it may be time to consider life after Rudi. However, I think Ahmad Brooks in the third round is better than anybody who was available at that time.

While I give all the praise, the Bengals did not address the front seven until the seventh round unless you count Ahmad Brooks, and he was there last year. The team will be significantly better next year because of the schedule, but as Cedric said in the NFL Draft thread, they will not win many games in the playoffs.

A for the value of the picks, C for not filling needs.

dsmith421
04-29-2007, 09:12 PM
I'm saying C, because the team has done very little to shore up the defensive front seven. Even assuming status quo on offense, this team is likely to be top 6 in yardage and points. Addressing the third-worst defense in the NFL should have been priority 1, 2, and 3, and the club has not acquired a single difference-maker in free agency and did not improve the front seven at all in the draft.

All in all, the Bengals continue to have a nice little team but with the strides forward Baltimore and New England have made, they are as far from the Super Bowl as they were in Marvin's first year.

Cedric
04-29-2007, 09:18 PM
Until the Bengals shore up their defensive front four they are just pretenders. It's something Marvin Lewis refuses to adress in the draft.

guttle11
04-29-2007, 09:26 PM
Until the Bengals shore up their defensive front four they are just pretenders. It's something Marvin Lewis refuses to adress in the draft.

Who did you want them to take? Jarvis Moss was taken right before them in round 1, and Woodley and Harris in round 2.

They got a guy widely viewed as top ten quality at 18. That's great value. You HAVE to take him. There were no highly rated defensive guys left when they picked Irons. Ahmad Brooks was their 3rd round pick, with 1st round potential and a year of experience... Then come round 4 you start taking the best player available on your board.

And I'm not sure you mean by refusing to address the front seven in the draft. Pollack, Thurman, Geathers, Brooks, I might be missing one or two. Some picks work out, some don't for various reasons. To say he refuses to addresses it is kinda silly IMO.

BTW, I gave this draft a B. They obviously believe the QB they took will be a good backup in a year, and I like the saftey they got, too. Sort of ho-hum, but I think 2, 3, 4 years down the road this will be a solid class for them.

UKFlounder
04-29-2007, 09:27 PM
It's something Marvin Lewis refuses to adress in the draft.

Or in free agency.

Or by trades.

pedro
04-29-2007, 09:45 PM
I honestly don't know.

Danny Serafini
04-29-2007, 09:52 PM
I gave it a D. I'm not a Leon Hall fan, he got torched in big games last year. The Kenny Irons pick was absurd. Terrible first day. Maybe something will come of the second day guys to salvage this draft, but at first glance it looks to be Lewis' worst draft as coach.

Cedric
04-29-2007, 10:14 PM
Who did you want them to take? Jarvis Moss was taken right before them in round 1, and Woodley and Harris in round 2.

They got a guy widely viewed as top ten quality at 18. That's great value. You HAVE to take him. There were no highly rated defensive guys left when they picked Irons. Ahmad Brooks was their 3rd round pick, with 1st round potential and a year of experience... Then come round 4 you start taking the best player available on your board.

And I'm not sure you mean by refusing to address the front seven in the draft. Pollack, Thurman, Geathers, Brooks, I might be missing one or two. Some picks work out, some don't for various reasons. To say he refuses to addresses it is kinda silly IMO.

BTW, I gave this draft a B. They obviously believe the QB they took will be a good backup in a year, and I like the saftey they got, too. Sort of ho-hum, but I think 2, 3, 4 years down the road this will be a solid class for them.

I said front four. I couldn't care less about linebackers. They are a dime a dozen in this league.

Pollack, Thurman, and Brooks were all LB's. Geathers was a 6th round pick and a lucky hit.

Marvin refuses to upgrade the most important position on his defense and I have no clear idea why.

Joseph
04-29-2007, 10:17 PM
I'm a C- rater.

Hall I like, nothing else do I like though

HotCorner
04-29-2007, 10:51 PM
I said front four. I couldn't care less about linebackers. They are a dime a dozen in this league.

Pollack, Thurman, and Brooks were all LB's. Geathers was a 6th round pick and a lucky hit.

Marvin refuses to upgrade the most important position on his defense and I have no clear idea why.

Upgrade with whom?

Geathers a lucky hit? To quote Ozzie Guillen, "please."

Yachtzee
04-29-2007, 10:51 PM
I think they did well. Marvin's been pretty good at spotting talent in the upper rounds, even if it did come with character or injury problems. The character issues could have been avoided, but you can't predict injuries. I suspect everyone drafted on the second day were more likely special teams picks. As far as not addressing the DLine. I would have liked to have seen them pick up a DL, but if there isn't a quality guy available at their pick, I'd rather they didn't reach for a guy they weren't sold on just to fill a need. That's how busts are made.

dsmith421
04-29-2007, 11:06 PM
[QUOTE=Yachtzee;1324501I would have liked to have seen them pick up a DL, but if there isn't a quality guy available at their pick, I'd rather they didn't reach for a guy they weren't sold on just to fill a need. That's how busts are made.[/QUOTE]

Marvin was discussing the Irons pick the other day and noted that Harris and Woodley, two guys they "coveted", were off the board by the time that the Bengals picked, so they had no real choice.

Successful franchises don't make those excuses--they either put together a creative solution to move up to get the guy they covet, or they trade down and focus their energies on depth. The way NE has rebuilt their WR corps this year is a textbook example of how a good franchise addresses an obvious deficiency.

The Bengals, as of yet, have not improved the 30th ranked defense in the NFL, a defense that has been directly responsible for their shortcomings down the stretch the past two seasons. When you have a porous D-line, it makes everyone's job harder. Extending Geathers and signing Smith is a start, but it still doesn't address the fact that our defensive tackles are among the worst in the league. Signing Michael Myers doesn't change that. They needed to cut Thornton and pursue the best DT talent available, whether through FA or the draft. They didn't do so.

As of right now, with Bresnahan running the defense and terrible DTs, I see nothing to convince me that our defense will be anything even approaching average next year.

Cedric
04-29-2007, 11:08 PM
Upgrade with whom?

Geathers a lucky hit? To quote Ozzie Guillen, "please."

Over the years they have had countless chances to upgrade the front four and he hasn't yet. It's the most important position on the field and yet he goes for Carl Powell and Bryan Robinson type players. Just dumb, IMO.

How is drafting someone in the 6th round not a lucky hit? Marvin has shown over the years that he doesn't value the front four like he should.

Cedric
04-29-2007, 11:09 PM
Marvin was discussing the Irons pick the other day and noted that Harris and Woodley, two guys they "coveted", were off the board by the time that the Bengals picked, so they had no real choice.

Successful franchises don't make those excuses--they either put together a creative solution to move up to get the guy they covet, or they trade down and focus their energies on depth. The way NE has rebuilt their WR corps this year is a textbook example of how a good franchise addresses an obvious deficiency.

The Bengals, as of yet, have not improved the 30th ranked defense in the NFL, a defense that has been directly responsible for their shortcomings down the stretch the past two seasons. When you have a porous D-line, it makes everyone's job harder. Extending Geathers and signing Smith is a start, but it still doesn't address the fact that our defensive tackles are among the worst in the league. Signing Michael Myers doesn't change that. They needed to cut Thornton and pursue the best DT talent available, whether through FA or the draft. They didn't do so.

As of right now, with Bresnahan running the defense and terrible DTs, I see nothing to convince me that our defense will be anything even approaching average next year.

Dead on. The excuses are getting old. Without a major trade the Bengals cannot compete with this Dline. The window in this league is VERY small and the Bengals are letting it slip because of excuse after excuse.

guttle11
04-29-2007, 11:16 PM
I said front four. I couldn't care less about linebackers. They are a dime a dozen in this league.

Pollack, Thurman, and Brooks were all LB's. Geathers was a 6th round pick and a lucky hit.

Marvin refuses to upgrade the most important position on his defense and I have no clear idea why.

He doesn't try to improve the line, yet Geathers was a "lucky" hit. You're not thinking clearly for some reason. That makes no sense. Was Geathers assigned to them or something? Using your logic, Carson Palmer was a "lucky hit". Marvin scouted and drafted Geathers because he knew he could play.

Just saying "front four" is flawed. The thing they lack most is a pass rush, which includes linebackers and defensive ends for the most part. The ends were fine last year. The tacles were eating blockers, they were just playing with backup and/or hurt LBs. But Marvin doesn't try...right.

Pollack and Thurman were developing into well above average players, but have been forced off the field due to issues out of anyone's control (except for Thurman himself). Brooks should have been in college last year, but I'm guessing he learned a lot. Time will tell if he's good enough.

Hoosier Red
04-29-2007, 11:19 PM
I think what this means is the Bengals believe;
A. Sam Adams is healthy
B. Chris Perry is not

If Adams is healthy and semi productive, then I'm not too upset with the D-line.
The linebackers will be better with experience.
The secondary will be very good.

In 2001, the Colts absolutely needed to draft a cornerback. Their defense was awful. They took Reggie Wayne even though they were absolutely set on Offense. And well you know his story.

Cedric
04-29-2007, 11:28 PM
He doesn't try to improve the line, yet Geathers was a "lucky" hit. You're not thinking clearly for some reason. That makes no sense. Was Geathers assigned to them or something? Using your logic, Carson Palmer was a "lucky hit". Marvin scouted and drafted Geathers because he knew he could play.

Just saying "front four" is flawed. The thing they lack most is a pass rush, which includes linebackers and defensive ends for the most part. The ends were fine last year. The tacles were eating blockers, they were just playing with backup and/or hurt LBs. But Marvin doesn't try...right.

Pollack and Thurman were developing into well above average players, but have been forced off the field due to issues out of anyone's control (except for Thurman himself). Brooks should have been in college last year, but I'm guessing he learned a lot. Time will tell if he's good enough.

You generate a pass rush with the front four. Without collapsing the pocket inside or having a speed rushing DE you won't win.

And Geathers was a 6th round pick. He has never approached the front four in the draft like he should, IMO. That was my whole point.

CTA513
04-29-2007, 11:35 PM
You generate a pass rush with the front four. Without collapsing the pocket inside or having a speed rushing DE you won't win.

And Geathers was a 6th round pick. He has never approached the front four in the draft like he should, IMO. That was my whole point.

Geathers was a 4th round pick (#117).

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/years/2004#round4

guttle11
04-29-2007, 11:36 PM
You generate a pass rush with the front four. Without collapsing the pocket inside or having a speed rushing DE you won't win.

And Geathers was a 6th round pick. He has never approached the front four in the draft like he should, IMO. That was my whole point.

Well, the draft is a crap shoot. Everyone, including myself, tends to view it on a micro level when it really should be viewed on a macro level.

The reason I like the Hall pick is that you pair him on the same side as Madieu (a pretty good CFer safety) and effectively shut down a deep threat. I think Hall is the jamming CB this team has lacked for as long as I can remember. On the other side you put the cover corner in Joseph with Jackson, which will allow Dexter to step up in the box quite a bit more to aid in the run and slot routes. I don't know much about the saftey they got in the 4th round, but it seems like he's a hard hitter. Hopefully Dexter can mentor him.

And they are very high on Peko, who showed flashes of being a good DT. My guess is that they expect him to take a leap forward this year.

TeamSelig
04-29-2007, 11:44 PM
I don't know enough about football to vote, but from what i've read, I think it is a pretty good pick (the 1st round) simply because he was top 10 talent that fell to us.

Sea Ray
04-29-2007, 11:54 PM
I gave it a D.


I agree. D it is.

I'm fine with Hall. He can be a nickel CB this year and grow into a bigger role.

Picking a RB and a QB were stupid. Irons was not a steal at #2. It's not like a 1st rounder fell to the second. RBs and backup QBs can be picked up later and in free agency. No one ever projects Irons as an every down back in the NFL.

Put it this way: The only players drafted who project to possibly being a starter in this league is Hall and Ahmad Brooks. That's not good.

Yachtzee
04-30-2007, 12:22 AM
I agree. D it is.

I'm fine with Hall. He can be a nickel CB this year and grow into a bigger role.

Picking a RB and a QB were stupid. Irons was not a steal at #2. It's not like a 1st rounder fell to the second. RBs and backup QBs can be picked up later and in free agency. No one ever projects Irons as an every down back in the NFL.

Put it this way: The only players drafted who project to possibly being a starter in this league is Hall and Ahmad Brooks. That's not good.

I got the impression that the Irons pick means that they aren't counting on Perry and they realize that Rudi is more effective when they have a change of pace back to run to the outside.

For all this talk about the DLine, I thought Peko and Adams worked pretty well with Smith and Geathers, and that's with Adams having injury problems. They do lack depth, but I thought a lot of the issues they had were as a result of a depleted LB corps. I think the failure to address it in the draft may mean they expect guys coming back from injury to produce and possibly a deal with Ed Hartwell. What should be promising is that the Hall pick means that the Bengals have what draftniks have said is a shutdown-level corner to complement Joseph. If Deltha O'Neal doesn't return to the form he displayed his first year with the Bengals, it might not be the problem it was this past season. With Jackson and Williams, the secondary might not only be formidable, but also might be good at stopping the run.

I don't see them becoming a top-10 defense, but I think if they could at least improve to top half of the league, the offense with a Carson Palmer 1 more year removed from his injury is potent enough to carry the team to the playoffs.

George Foster
04-30-2007, 12:32 AM
I said front four. I couldn't care less about linebackers. They are a dime a dozen in this league.

Pollack, Thurman, and Brooks were all LB's. Geathers was a 6th round pick and a lucky hit.

Marvin refuses to upgrade the most important position on his defense and I have no clear idea why.


totally agree, if linebackers are making tackles on runningbacks, they have already gained 5 yards. To not even try and move up in the draft, or get a free agent signing is horrible. The front four is responsible for the pass rush and making tackles on runningbacks before they gain over 3 yards. Teams will continue to pass for over 300 yards and gain 120 on the ground until this problem is addressed.

Yachtzee
04-30-2007, 12:38 AM
totally agree, if linebackers are making tackles on runningbacks, they have already gained 5 yards. To not even try and move up in the draft, or get a free agent signing is horrible. The front four is responsible for the pass rush and making tackles on runningbacks before they gain over 3 yards. Teams will continue to pass for over 300 yards and gain 120 on the ground until this problem is addressed.

Actually, I thought many systems used the DL to engage the OL and LBs to step up into the holes at the line. Now if you had said if the FS is making a tackle on RBs, they've already gained 5 yards, I'm right there with you. But LBs are typicall up "in the box" to stuff runs at the line of scrimmage.

Cedric
04-30-2007, 12:39 AM
Look at New England and they give you the blue print. I guarantee a guy like Tory James will shine in that defense. He has good ball skills and instincts. They don't care about amazing athletes in their secondary because their seven are so dominant.

Seymour and Wilfork in the 3-4 just dominate. Hell guys like Artrell Hawkins can win super bowls.

bucksfan2
04-30-2007, 11:42 AM
I give it a B-. I really like the Hall pick considering he slipped quite a bit and given the short amount to time it them to get the pick in. The Irons pick is a little suprising but I think it gives them the home run threat that they have been missing for a while in the backfield. It also may spell the end of Rudi in cincy because the have been rumors that Rudi is not a good locker room guy (suspended for the start of the SD game last year). Hopefull the Safety they took in the 4th round can pan out. Marvin loves guys who have a great deal of upside who he can develop. White may be groomed to take over after Dexter departs. I am ok with them drafting a QB in the 5th because it will save them some cap room because they dont have to sign a backup. With the later picks you hope they find a diamond in the rough. It sounds like the ND S can be a special teams performer which will help. Overall this was a decent draft.

Fil3232
05-01-2007, 08:45 PM
Solid, not sexy. The Bengals lacked the resources in this years' draft to really move up or down in the early rounds.

CrackerJack
05-01-2007, 10:28 PM
I give it a B-. I really like the Hall pick considering he slipped quite a bit and given the short amount to time it them to get the pick in. The Irons pick is a little suprising but I think it gives them the home run threat that they have been missing for a while in the backfield. It also may spell the end of Rudi in cincy because the have been rumors that Rudi is not a good locker room guy (suspended for the start of the SD game last year). Hopefull the Safety they took in the 4th round can pan out. Marvin loves guys who have a great deal of upside who he can develop. White may be groomed to take over after Dexter departs. I am ok with them drafting a QB in the 5th because it will save them some cap room because they dont have to sign a backup. With the later picks you hope they find a diamond in the rough. It sounds like the ND S can be a special teams performer which will help. Overall this was a decent draft.

Rudi was suspended for a series to start the game because he was late to a meeting. He is well-liked and is one of the hardest workers on that team.

Rudi does need a compliment though and Perry is not reliable.

I had no problem with them picking a Rb in the 2nd (anyone who was suprised by that doesn't follow the team closely enough I think). I was suprised by them taking Irons though.

I think they reached for both Irons and Rowe. Heck I would've been happy with Cincy native turned Gator Wynn at RB in the 4th or 5th.

I do trust Jim Anderson to scout and develop RB's though, so will trust their judgement on Irons.

Irons is only projected to be a 3rd down back or 10-15 carry back in the NFL - he's under-sized, injury prone and doesn't have tested hands or receiving abilities.

That's why I think they reached for him - but we'll see.

Justin Smith and Geathers' salaries are the reason they can't afford a DT. With all of the picks they'll get next year in compensation (a bunch - one or two as high as the 3rd as well) they will be in a good position to get creative.

But we all know how that is with the status quo Bengals' front office.

Cedric
05-01-2007, 10:41 PM
Rudi was suspended for a series to start the game because he was late to a meeting. He is well-liked and is one of the hardest workers on that team.

Rudi does need a compliment though and Perry is not reliable.

I had no problem with them picking a Rb in the 2nd (anyone who was suprised by that doesn't follow the team closely enough I think). I was suprised by them taking Irons though.

I think they reached for both Irons and Rowe. Heck I would've been happy with Cincy native turned Gator Wynn at RB in the 4th or 5th.

I do trust Jim Anderson to scout and develop RB's though, so will trust their judgement on Irons.

Irons is only projected to be a 3rd down back or 10-15 carry back in the NFL - he's under-sized, injury prone and doesn't have tested hands or receiving abilities.

That's why I think they reached for him - but we'll see.

Justin Smith and Geathers' salaries are the reason they can't afford a DT. With all of the picks they'll get next year in compensation (a bunch - one or two as high as the 3rd as well) they will be in a good position to get creative.

But we all know how that is with the status quo Bengals' front office.

What happened the other time Jim Anderson was sold on an injury prone RB?