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runfreelrun
04-30-2007, 09:13 PM
Man I like the lineup without Griffey. More speed with Freel and Hamilton, though I dont like Freel playing everyday. One less lefthanded bat in the lineup and better defense and team speed. I would like to see Griffey get healthy and see him come off the bench as our 4th outfielder and first bat off the bench against righties. Also it gives us more time to evaluate Hamilton on an everyday basis and let him get into the groove of everyday baseball again.

KoryMac5
04-30-2007, 09:28 PM
I like the fact that the offense is quicker because team speed really is an asset but Griffey has been swinging a good bat and I feel the offense scores more runs when he is in. He offers protection to hitters like Dunn and EE.

Degenerate39
04-30-2007, 09:42 PM
Griffey is a hall of famer I like the lineup better with him in it.

jmac
04-30-2007, 10:26 PM
If the reds had not won the last 2 games, this would probably not even be an isssue.

Razor Shines
04-30-2007, 11:56 PM
I don't want Ryan Freel playing that much until he promises not to try to steal any more bases. His Net SB this season is -7, and that's figuring that he's been picked off only once, it may be more but I can only remember one for sure. When he gets on base he should just keep his foot on the base until the pitch crosses home plate, because right now he's costing us way more than he's helping us.

Reds1
04-30-2007, 11:59 PM
no no. Much better with Griffey in the line up. He is still given respect even if he has slowed down. Righ now just having 3 good OF all lefty makes it a challange.

TOBTTReds
05-01-2007, 12:05 AM
I think the exact opposite. I was thinking that I was surprised there haven't been any threads saying that our lineup misses him. I think it really does.

mroby85
05-01-2007, 12:06 AM
no no. Much better with Griffey in the line up. He is still given respect even if he has slowed down. Righ now just having 3 good OF all lefty makes it a challange.

i agree 100%, in fact that is almost exactly what I was going to reply with, the only other thing i was going to add which is kind of obvious is that due to that respect shown to him, the other players in the lineup see better pitches which makes them more effective.

WVRedsFan
05-01-2007, 02:01 AM
I've posted this before, but there is no substitute for Griffey in the lineup. No one else drives in the runs he does on this team given the amount of time he plays. Put Hamilton in center and Griffey in right if you have to, but keep Freel in his best position--a utility man.

jimbo
05-01-2007, 02:37 AM
I've posted this before, but there is no substitute for Griffey in the lineup. No one else drives in the runs he does on this team given the amount of time he plays. Put Hamilton in center and Griffey in right if you have to, but keep Freel in his best position--a utility man.

Ding Ding Ding......we have a winner. :thumbup: :beerme:

mth123
05-01-2007, 06:10 AM
I've posted this before, but there is no substitute for Griffey in the lineup. No one else drives in the runs he does on this team given the amount of time he plays. Put Hamilton in center and Griffey in right if you have to, but keep Freel in his best position--a utility man.

Agree completely.

oneupper
05-01-2007, 08:34 AM
For the record:
Griffey Starting: 8-8
Not Starting: 4-5

redsmetz
05-01-2007, 08:50 AM
It is a crazy thing, isn't it. For all of Griffey's deficiencies due to aging and, more so, injuries over the years, he still adds something to this club. I think it was so apparent last September. Obviously the day will come when he's not on this team, but while he's here, I'd love to see him out there regularly. I agree with others about making Freel the floater when Griff is healthy. That's a decent team.

Triples
05-01-2007, 09:01 AM
I agree, it is a crazy thing that it seems the majority of the posts about Griffey are about how good he is (or how good he isn't), when he's playing. Don't get me wrong, I believe the guy is an incredible positive attribute to this team. Not just for his production on the field but for his leadership as well. And, what a joy it is to watch him play. (look up poetry in the the dictionary and I think you might see Jr's picture). But, man it sure would be nice if he could stay in the line up.


It is a crazy thing, isn't it. For all of Griffey's deficiencies due to aging and, more so, injuries over the years, he still adds something to this club. I think it was so apparent last September. Obviously the day will come when he's not on this team, but while he's here, I'd love to see him out there regularly. I agree with others about making Freel the floater when Griff is healthy. That's a decent team.

Marge'sMullet
05-01-2007, 09:41 AM
Griffey is a hall of famer I like the lineup better with him in it.


Griffey use to play like a hall of famer, sorry but those day have past. Point being Hamilton is better all around than Griffey right now.

hebroncougar
05-01-2007, 09:45 AM
Griff. 4 days a week, Freel 4 days a week, Hamilton 6 days a week. Dunn everyday. Rinse and repeat unless Hamilton proves he can't handle it for the long run. It will keep Freel and Griffey healthy hopefully.

RFS62
05-01-2007, 10:27 AM
I've posted this before, but there is no substitute for Griffey in the lineup. No one else drives in the runs he does on this team given the amount of time he plays. Put Hamilton in center and Griffey in right if you have to, but keep Freel in his best position--a utility man.



Yeah, I agree.

Ron Madden
05-01-2007, 10:33 AM
I'd bet that everyone on the 25 man roster would tell you the lineup is better with griffey in it.

dougdirt
05-01-2007, 10:53 AM
Griffey use to play like a hall of famer, sorry but those day have past. Point being Hamilton is better all around than Griffey right now.

Yep, lets base that off of 50 at bats. Good call. Chris Shelton says hi.

Jr's Boy
05-01-2007, 11:45 AM
Good call Doug.

coachw513
05-01-2007, 11:54 AM
Griffey use to play like a hall of famer, sorry but those day have past. Point being Hamilton is better all around than Griffey right now.

The ONLY thing Griffey's not done well this month is stay healthy...what a surprise :bang:

But we seem to discount his OPS for the month, the fact his wrist finally seems healthy and the power to RC is returning, his impact on the entire rest of the lineup, and IMO, his lifelong ability to get critical hits off of tough LH pitchers, of tremendous importance to this team...

To play Griffey is not to bench Hamilton...it's been said well by others...rest Freel, EE, and Dunn occasionally (along with obviously Hamilton and Griffey)...it takes care of itself...

But it simply is a pipe-dream to think we are better off without Griffey in the lineup, IMHO...

Ltlabner
05-01-2007, 11:54 AM
I've posted this before, but there is no substitute for Griffey in the lineup. No one else drives in the runs he does on this team given the amount of time he plays. Put Hamilton in center and Griffey in right if you have to, but keep Freel in his best position--a utility man.

Well said.

I didn't realize it was already time for the obligatory, "we're better without Jr" thread. Time sure does fly.

klw
05-01-2007, 12:10 PM
The Reds are better with Griffey. As "bad" as he has been with the Reds he is 2nd all time for slugging % with the Reds and 3rd in OPS. http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/leaders_bat.shtml
I would love to see him continue to hurt the Reds by putting up those numbers.

Doro
05-01-2007, 12:24 PM
I agree, Griffey use to play like a hall of famer. Now he plays like a HR hitter that doesnt hit enough HRs. He doesnt hit for average, hes slower, and the range is gone. Hamilton will still give you all those tools.

dougdirt
05-01-2007, 12:28 PM
I agree, Griffey use to play like a hall of famer. Now he plays like a HR hitter that doesnt hit enough HRs. He doesnt hit for average, hes slower, and the range is gone. Hamilton will still give you all those tools.

Range is gone? I have not seen 1 problem with his range in RF. Griffey is still getting on base better than every regular on the team with a .380 OBP. Despite the fact he has 30-40 fewer at bats than some guys on the team, he still leads the team in doubles, so the power is still there. Seriously, if you add 5 feet onto about 5 or 6 of his hits, he has 6 or 7 HR right now. As far as batting average goes.... if he goes 3-4 the next game he plays he is hitting .286. Batting average this early swings so much with 1 game that to put any emphasis on it is fairly useless unless a guy is hitting below .200.

Redsland
05-01-2007, 12:36 PM
As "bad" as he has been with the Reds he is 2nd all time for slugging % with the Reds and 3rd in OPS.
Huh. That's interesting.

:thumbup:

dougdirt
05-01-2007, 12:38 PM
Huh. That's interesting.

:thumbup:

Isnt it though? Despite that, I get into arguements weekly with people who say he has sucked as a Red and been a huge disappointment even when on the field.

44Magnum
05-01-2007, 12:38 PM
I agree with your original post.


Man I like the lineup without Griffey. More speed with Freel and Hamilton, though I dont like Freel playing everyday. One less lefthanded bat in the lineup and better defense and team speed. I would like to see Griffey get healthy and see him come off the bench as our 4th outfielder and first bat off the bench against righties. Also it gives us more time to evaluate Hamilton on an everyday basis and let him get into the groove of everyday baseball again.

westofyou
05-01-2007, 12:41 PM
The Reds are better with Griffey. As "bad" as he has been with the Reds he is 2nd all time for slugging % with the Reds and 3rd in OPS. http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/leaders_bat.shtml
I would love to see him continue to hurt the Reds by putting up those numbers.

If you look at vs the league average and place a 2000 PA benchmark on it he rates #7 in SLG and #10 in OPS (and #27 in OB%)


CINCINNATI REDS
CAREER
MODERN (1900-)
AT BATS displayed only--not a sorting criteria
RUNS CREATED/GAME displayed only--not a sorting criteria

OBA DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE AB RC/G
1 Joe Morgan .083 .415 .332 4008 8.18
2 Frank Robinson .059 .389 .330 5527 7.88
3 Heine Groh .055 .378 .324 4439 5.55
4 Cy Seymour .052 .378 .326 2221 7.81
5 Pete Rose .051 .379 .327 10934 6.08
6 Miller Huggins .044 .362 .318 2818 4.89
7 Edd Roush .040 .377 .337 5384 6.31
8 Adam Dunn .039 .380 .341 2832 7.11
9 Ken Griffey Sr. .039 .370 .331 4206 6.20
10 Jake Beckley .038 .373 .335 2128 6.90
11 Eric Davis .037 .367 .329 3272 7.05
12 Johnny Temple .035 .372 .336 3632 5.21
13 Barry Larkin .034 .371 .336 7937 6.22
14 Rube Bressler .033 .379 .346 2223 5.83
15 Dan Driessen .030 .361 .332 4717 5.37

OPS DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE AB RC/G
1 Frank Robinson .206 .943 .737 5527 7.88
2 Cy Seymour .174 .841 .667 2221 7.81
3 Joe Morgan .165 .885 .720 4008 8.18
4 Eric Davis .153 .877 .725 3272 7.05
5 George Foster .152 .870 .718 4454 6.39
6 Adam Dunn .119 .892 .774 2832 7.11
7 Edd Roush .119 .839 .721 5384 6.31
8 Ted Kluszewski .116 .869 .753 4961 6.73
9 Jake Beckley .114 .807 .693 2128 6.90
10 Ken Griffey Jr. .110 .890 .780 2466 6.76
11 Tony Perez .110 .820 .711 6846 5.71
12 Lee May .103 .812 .709 2841 5.18
13 Johnny Bench .102 .817 .716 7658 5.55
14 Heine Groh .095 .772 .677 4439 5.55
15 Ernie Lombardi .093 .828 .735 3980 5.77

SLG DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE AB RC/G
1 Frank Robinson .147 .554 .407 5527 7.88
2 George Foster .127 .514 .387 4454 6.39
3 Cy Seymour .122 .463 .341 2221 7.81
4 Eric Davis .115 .510 .395 3272 7.05
5 Lee May .108 .490 .383 2841 5.18
6 Ted Kluszewski .100 .512 .412 4961 6.73
7 Ken Griffey Jr. .093 .530 .437 2466 6.76
8 Tony Perez .091 .474 .383 6846 5.71
9 Johnny Bench .090 .476 .386 7658 5.55
10 Joe Morgan .083 .470 .388 4008 8.18
11 Wally Post .082 .498 .416 3021 5.44
12 Adam Dunn .080 .513 .433 2832 7.11
13 Edd Roush .079 .462 .383 5384 6.31
14 Deron Johnson .077 .467 .391 1959 4.95
15 Jake Beckley .076 .434 .357 2128 6.90

vic715
05-01-2007, 12:56 PM
Griffey use to play like a hall of famer, sorry but those day have past. Point being Hamilton is better all around than Griffey right now.

Defensivly yes but no way can he swing the bat with Griffey just yet.I'm afraid the pitchers in this league will catch up with Hamilton here shortly(I hope not) and slow him down a little.

BRM
05-01-2007, 04:44 PM
Griffey is back in the lineup today hitting 4th.

jimbo
05-01-2007, 04:48 PM
Griffey is back in the lineup today hitting 4th.

Great news. :thumbup:

Will
05-01-2007, 04:59 PM
Griffey in the lineup is definately better for the offense. Defensively Freel and Hamilton are both better. Dunn isn't as good as Griffey defensively. Can't afford not to have Dunn's bat in the order though. Answer ? Ask MLB if we can use the DH rule for the time remaining on Griffey's contract and we have a perfect solution to our problem and no one sits.
As it is Dunn isn't tearing it up either and we could sit him against pitchers he has had problems with in the past to get more time for Hamilton

gilpdawg
05-01-2007, 07:36 PM
Griffey could walk on water and somebody would have a problem with it. This revisionist history just kills me. Sure, the guy's been hurt a lot, but you can't take that from his performance when he's been out there. Two years ago he played most of the season before shutting it down after the team was out of the race, and he OPS'd .945, and for the record, his final season (when he was good, according to idiots) in Seattle was a .960 OPS.

And another thing that bothers me, I hear people all the time say, "he's been injured since his first day here." Did those people forget 2000? 145 games played that year. The problems didn't start until the hammy blew the next spring.

Rocket_Fuel
05-01-2007, 09:17 PM
Ummm, I like having a HOF in the lineup. We're better with Griffey in the lineup I think he's proving that tonight.

HumnHilghtFreel
05-01-2007, 09:20 PM
Keep posting topics like this, they tend to wake the sleeping dogs for some reason. The reverse jinx, if you will

dougdirt
05-01-2007, 09:23 PM
yeah that .864 OPS is killing this team....

Razor Shines
05-01-2007, 09:51 PM
Range is gone? I have not seen 1 problem with his range in RF. Griffey is still getting on base better than every regular on the team with a .380 OBP. Despite the fact he has 30-40 fewer at bats than some guys on the team, he still leads the team in doubles, so the power is still there. Seriously, if you add 5 feet onto about 5 or 6 of his hits, he has 6 or 7 HR right now. As far as batting average goes.... if he goes 3-4 the next game he plays he is hitting .286. Batting average this early swings so much with 1 game that to put any emphasis on it is fairly useless unless a guy is hitting below .200.

Doug you have so little faith. He's not going to make any outs tonight.

jimbo
05-01-2007, 09:56 PM
Starting threads like this always seem to find a way to come back and bite you in the you know what. :mooner:

dougdirt
05-01-2007, 09:58 PM
Doug you have so little faith. He's not going to make any outs tonight.

Haha, what do I know? Im just a moron on the internet.

Reds1
05-01-2007, 10:46 PM
What a night! Arroyo gets his 1st win and Griffey has a lot to say about that. Great post everyone.