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View Full Version : Narron officially on the "hot seat."



Redlegs
05-06-2007, 06:33 PM
According to John Fay's blog, anyway.



On Narron

I'm not at the park. But I can see from my email that Ryan Freel is starting at second base. It's the first time since July 5 of last year.

From the e-mailers and posters, I can say that Jerry Narron is officially on the hot seat -- at least as far as fans are concerned. Bob Castellini doesn't e-mail or post on the blog, so I can't say for sure if Narron is actually in any danger. But I can say that Castellini is not overly patient. If he views the Reds' failures as Narron's fault, something could happen.

While I don't think Narron is blameless, I think the problem is bullpen. The Reds have no closer. So the eighth inning guys are pitching in the ninth, seventh inning guys are pitching eighth, and so on. With good relief pitching, the Reds win two of three in Houston and the first two with Colorado. Instead, they're on four-game losing streak, and fans want someone fired.

Five games are left on this homestand. The Reds better win at least three or them or that hot seat will get a lot hotter.

reds44
05-06-2007, 06:40 PM
Woah.

Didn't expect to hear that.

Joseph
05-06-2007, 06:46 PM
Woah.

Didn't expect to hear that.

Why not, all he said is that the fans want Narron gone. A quick scan of this board will tell you the same thing. Redleg nation is restless and becoming more voracious in its quest for blood.

If something isn't done soon I fear David Alan Grier may kill the weatherman.

Edit: I got that backwards, DAG was the weatherman killed by Will Ferrell.

AdamDunn
05-06-2007, 07:29 PM
Narron is the skapegoat

Falls City Beer
05-06-2007, 07:31 PM
Narron is the skapegoat

Yep. What's crazy is that I have far fewer problems with Narron's decisions this year as opposed to last year.

Narron is about #10-11 on the list of things wrong with the team. So, yeah, that's scapegoating.

RFS62
05-06-2007, 08:51 PM
While I don't think Narron is blameless, I think the problem is bullpen. The Reds have no closer. So the eighth inning guys are pitching in the ninth, seventh inning guys are pitching eighth, and so on. With good relief pitching, the Reds win two of three in Houston and the first two with Colorado. Instead, they're on four-game losing streak, and fans want someone fired.



Even a dim bulb like Fay can see what's wrong with this team.

BCubb2003
05-06-2007, 09:18 PM
This is an odd definition of "officially." i guess we're all officials now.

Chip R
05-06-2007, 09:23 PM
It doesn't take a genius to see that if the Reds keep playing like they have been recently, Narron's gone.

NorrisHopper30
05-06-2007, 09:27 PM
Does this mean our whole bullpen is on the hot seat also?

Tommyjohn25
05-06-2007, 09:41 PM
Does this mean our whole bullpen is on the hot seat also?

That would be the more intelligent path to go down. I agree with FCB, Narron is far down the list of reasons for the slow start.

RedFanAlways1966
05-06-2007, 09:52 PM
From the e-mailers and posters, I can say that Jerry Narron is officially on the hot seat -- at least as far as fans are concerned.

What? You mean to tell me those "internet types" are smart enough to know anything?!!? ;)

Who knows... but if John "stir it up anyway I can" Fay takes e-mails from Common Joes as gospel, then take it with a grain of salt. The good ol' "inside source" might be more believeable, but Fay e-mailers are hardly anything to take as a reason that something is gonna happen. Grain of salt, please....

savafan
05-06-2007, 09:59 PM
Does this mean our whole bullpen is on the hot seat also?

It's easier to fire one person than it is to fire six.

Cedric
05-06-2007, 10:06 PM
Frankly I don't care if Narron is to blame for the bad start. His ineptitude over his career is reason enough for Reds fans to want another manager.

butlerbulldogs
05-06-2007, 10:15 PM
Perfect Example of why Narron should be fired, on Friday Coffey (for once) was cruising along 1 1/3 innings and they took him out for the lefty-lefty matchup...should have left him in, stop playing situations with the bullpen and go with the hot hand, everytime he brings in someone else from the bullpen the odds of an explosion increase

Falls City Beer
05-06-2007, 10:19 PM
Honestly, we have Narron to thank for the best offensive player on this team. Not that I think he'll repeat the task of finding such players.

Reds4Life
05-06-2007, 10:19 PM
Frankly I don't care if Narron is to blame for the bad start. His ineptitude over his career is reason enough for Reds fans to want another manager.

Given the Reds history of contracting the job out to the lowest bidder I'm not sure his replacement would be any better.

HokieRed
05-06-2007, 10:20 PM
I'm not crazy about Narron, but it seems to me completely unfair to blame Narron for this team's problems. The bullpen was constructed by Krivsky, so if anybody's looking for one guy to blame, that's where I'd start. Does anybody think Hamilton provides safety for Narron?

Caveat Emperor
05-06-2007, 10:22 PM
Take this FWIW, but rumor has it that Marty has been talking around the press corps that HE felt Narron might get the axe if the team had a bad homestand.

I'm sure that, more than anything else, is the genesis of all this "Narron on the Hot Seat" chatter.

Cedric
05-06-2007, 10:23 PM
Given the Reds history of contracting the job out to the lowest bidder I'm not sure his replacement would be any better.

I don't believe it. Bob C is a big splash kind of guy. You can argue if we need that also though.
:)

redsmetz
05-06-2007, 10:25 PM
I think whoever wrote that Fay is a dim bulb pretty well hit the nail on the head. His air of self-importance yawns again. Oh well...

WVRedsFan
05-06-2007, 10:27 PM
Even a dim bulb like Fay can see what's wrong with this team.

As can everyone else, buddy. The problem is there is always a scapegoat and it ain't going to be Mr. Castellini or Krivsky, even though they may be the best to blame. If I learned anything from this four game slump, it is that I think I knew how JN felt. Nothing worked, no matter what was done. Even today, every bloop was falling in for hits. Stanton was hacked and everyone was frustrated. You know what happens when you lose and everyone is frustrated? Somebody's head is going to roll. and when it starts to effect attendance and $$ made, you know who will go first.

WVRedsFan
05-06-2007, 10:28 PM
Take this FWIW, but rumor has it that Marty has been talking around the press corps that HE felt Narron might get the axe if the team had a bad homestand.

I'm sure that, more than anything else, is the genesis of all this "Narron on the Hot Seat" chatter.

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner!

bearcatfan24
05-06-2007, 10:33 PM
You have to give the reds a little more time

Im sure wanye is exploring every opprutuninty to improve the team (Bullpen)
Which i agree is very bad.

I think that pulling one or two guys from louisville will not benfit us ig they arent ready to pitch at the major league level

It is isnt even june yet give'm till the end of the month to tell what they are made of. Good teams find ways to win look at the brewers

hebroncougar
05-06-2007, 10:51 PM
Perfect Example of why Narron should be fired, on Friday Coffey (for once) was cruising along 1 1/3 innings and they took him out for the lefty-lefty matchup...should have left him in, stop playing situations with the bullpen and go with the hot hand, everytime he brings in someone else from the bullpen the odds of an explosion increase

I don't like Narron.........but Coffey a hot hand?? See, that's where everyone has a different opinion. He's been pretty bad the last couple of weeks. And if the lefty takes him deep.....than it becomes, why do we have Stanton and Coutlangeous?

Screwball
05-06-2007, 10:59 PM
Honestly, we have Narron to thank for the best offensive player on this team. Not that I think he'll repeat the task of finding such players.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, because it was Krivsky that found and acquired Hamilton from the Rule V draft. Krivsky did so without Narron's input.

AtomicDumpling
05-06-2007, 10:59 PM
Seems to me they should have fired Narron during the offseason. That was when good replacements were available. When you fire the manager during the season you are stuck with picking from the pile of rejects. That is why we ended up with Narron in the first place.

Team Clark
05-06-2007, 11:02 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by this, because it was Krivsky that found and acquired Hamilton from the Rule V draft. Krivsky did so without Narron's input.

Actually it is well documented that Narron had significant input into that selection. Krivsky was "kicking around" the idea and Narron sold him on it.

Screwball
05-06-2007, 11:12 PM
Actually it is well documented that Narron had significant input into that selection. Krivsky was "kicking around" the idea and Narron sold him on it.

Either way, it still wasn't Narron that found Josh Hamilton. Ultimately, it was Krivsky and the scouting department that did that.

Falls City Beer
05-06-2007, 11:18 PM
Either way, it still wasn't Narron that found Josh Hamilton. Ultimately, it was Krivsky and the scouting department that did that.

It's actually pretty murky.

But let's just say it was hardly a fait accompli until the intervention of Narron.

savafan
05-06-2007, 11:23 PM
Seems to me they should have fired Narron during the offseason. That was when good replacements were available. When you fire the manager during the season you are stuck with picking from the pile of rejects. That is why we ended up with Narron in the first place.

You've got to think that if Narron gets the ax now, they'll name an interim for the rest of this season (probably Bucky Dent) and then look at interviewing for the job in the offseason.

TeamBoone
05-06-2007, 11:26 PM
Either way, it still wasn't Narron that found Josh Hamilton. Ultimately, it was Krivsky and the scouting department that did that.

Actually, I don't think that's true, except for the "ultimately" part because it is, of course, the scouting department that makes the observations and Krivsky that makes the final decision. BUT! From what I read, Jerry's brother "found" Josh and had been working with him all winter. He's the one that alerted his brother and in turn, Jerry talked to Krivsky who in turn wanted the scouts to take a look at him. Where did I read that?

Also, I agree with the poster who suggested that the BP participants should have assigned roles attuned to their separate abilities. Not that they should be adhered to in stone every single game, but they should be used in their assigned roles as much as possible. Narron does seem to abuse his BP and you never have any idea of whom he might call on until the guy's announced... because they have no assigned roles.

AtomicDumpling
05-06-2007, 11:30 PM
You've got to think that if Narron gets the ax now, they'll name an interim for the rest of this season (probably Bucky Dent) and then look at interviewing for the job in the offseason.

I hope you're correct. The last two times the Reds fired the manager mid-season we ended up with Miley and Narron because they happened to be available.

The best time to fire the manager is when a good replacement is available. While we were stuck with Miley and Narron we missed out on good options like Piniella and Leyland. Guys like that aren't likely available mid-season.

Maybe Jack McKeon would come back.

redsmetz
05-06-2007, 11:32 PM
Given the Reds history of contracting the job out to the lowest bidder I'm not sure his replacement would be any better.

As I pointed out on another thread earlier today, it's absurd to suggest the Reds are performing poorly because they're cheaping out on managers. Jerry Narron make the exact same amount of money that Grady Little is with the Dodgers and yet they're in 1st place. The esteemed Oakland A's have the lowest paid manager in ML baseball (tied for last with two other teams) - and yet they somehow do it right. And Lou and Torre and LaRussa, among the highest paid managers and they're doing a spetacular job rolling in all that dough.

Reds4Life
05-06-2007, 11:33 PM
I don't believe it. Bob C is a big splash kind of guy. You can argue if we need that also though.
:)

Hard to make a big splash after the season has started. If Narron goes I think we get Dent as manager. Unimpressive if you ask me.

Wheelhouse
05-06-2007, 11:33 PM
Honestly, we have Narron to thank for the best offensive player on this team. Not that I think he'll repeat the task of finding such players.

Not true. Krivsky's scouts pushed acquiring Hamilton. Narron was shocked and surprised when Wayne told him they were picking him Rule 5.

redsmetz
05-06-2007, 11:35 PM
By the way, I came across an interesting link charting salary level with playing level. Only two teams are playing at the level equal to their salary and their standing - the Bosox and the Mets.

See this at

http://benfry.com/salaryper/

Dracodave
05-06-2007, 11:36 PM
I don't believe it. Bob C is a big splash kind of guy. You can argue if we need that also though.
:)

He had a full offseason to make a big splash. A really over looked fact is that, Bob C still has say in who gets signed etc. If a big splash was going to be made, it would have been made already.

Screwball
05-06-2007, 11:37 PM
Actually, I don't think that's true, except for the "ultimately" part because it is, of course, the scouting department that makes the observations and Krivsky that makes the final decision. BUT! From what I read, Jerry's brother "found" Josh and had been working with him all winter. He's the one that alerted his brother and in turn, Jerry talked to Krivsky who in turn wanted the scouts to take a look at him. Where did I read that?



Actually, I've read it as just the opposite sequence of events happening...



When the Reds decided to select Josh Hamilton in the Rule 5 draft, they had no idea that manager Jerry Narron knew Hamilton - much less had a personal coach in mind for the fallen phenom.

"His jaw dropped when I told him we were thinking about selecting him," general manager Wayne Krivsky said.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070401/SPT04/704010397/-1/openingday


But, I suppose it's true that Narron did have a hand in the acquisition of Josh Hamilton, which is a very very good thing. However, if Narron is gone I don't think we'll have to worry about no longer being able to acquire any hidden talent. See Phillips, Brandon.

Cedric
05-06-2007, 11:42 PM
He had a full offseason to make a big splash. A really over looked fact is that, Bob C still has say in who gets signed etc. If a big splash was going to be made, it would have been made already.

He didn't think it was necessary obviously. My only point is that when a new manager get's hired I doubt very much money will play a factor.

REDREAD
05-07-2007, 01:04 AM
You've got to think that if Narron gets the ax now, they'll name an interim for the rest of this season (probably Bucky Dent) and then look at interviewing for the job in the offseason.

The problem with an interim manager, is that Marty and the gang will love him and lobby for him to be permanent. Then the interim manager gets a 2-3 year deal. That's how we've gotten most of our managers..Miley, NArron (IIRC), Mckeon, maybe even Knight.. Maybe I'm wrong with some of those, but it seems to happen A LOT when we get an interim guy.

Let's just fire Narron after the season is over and do a proper manager search.

Eric_Davis
05-07-2007, 01:38 AM
It's so....so....early...in....the....season.

BRM
05-07-2007, 10:44 AM
What about the guy who assembled this bullpen? Is he on the hot seat as well?

I wouldn't fire anyone at this point. I'm not a fan of Narron but I don't see what firing him now would accomplish.

Marc D
05-07-2007, 11:10 AM
Firing narron won't fix anything, thats true. What it does is send the message through the organization that losing won't be tolerated and if you don't perform your tasks well, you could be next. Not my personal managing style but sometimes you need to snap a group out of a collective poor mindset. Fear is a great motivator whne used selectively.

IMO, firing Narron would be a shot across the bow of the SS Krivsky. If its not it should be.

RFS62
05-07-2007, 11:14 AM
Firing narron won't fix anything, thats true. What it does is send the message through the organization that losing won't be tolerated and if you don't perform your tasks well, you could be next. Not my personal managing style but sometimes you need to snap a group out of a collective poor mindset. Fear is a great motivator whne used selectively.

IMO, firing Narron would be a shot across the bow of the SS Krivsky. If its not it should be.



I don't think it would be a shot across the bow. I think it would be more like drilling a hole in the floor of the boat to let the water out.

storrs19
05-07-2007, 12:01 PM
I have nothing against Narron one way or the other. I do get tired of hearing the same old thing every day when Marty asks him an important question though. As least Marty has the kahunas to ask those questions. Just remember the old saying: "You can't fire the players". I figure if this team is not at at least .500 by Memorial Day someone will get the axe, I just don't know who. If I had to guess, I would say Tom Hume as he is the bullpen coach. May not be right, but the fans will demand someone's head soon if things don't improve with the bullpen. I know Hume can't improve the pen without better players but in baseball it is the managers and coaches who are fireable.

However, if you fire Narron who will you get to replace him. I would like to see Frank Robinson come in and manage as he is a no BS guy and plays the old fashioned way of "You will play where I tell you or you will sit". I get sick of seeing these multi-million dollar athletes getting pampered in any sport.

Redsland
05-07-2007, 12:16 PM
Not true. Krivsky's scouts pushed acquiring Hamilton. Narron was shocked and surprised when Wayne told him they were picking him Rule 5.
Correct. That is the correct version of events. Link (http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070401/SPT04/704010397/-1/openingday).

When the Reds decided to select Josh Hamilton in the Rule 5 draft, they had no idea that manager Jerry Narron knew Hamilton - much less had a personal coach in mind for the fallen phenom.

"His jaw dropped when I told him we were thinking about selecting him," general manager Wayne Krivsky said.

bounty37h
05-07-2007, 12:47 PM
Either way, it still wasn't Narron that found Josh Hamilton. Ultimately, it was Krivsky and the scouting department that did that.

Even though Jerrys bro had been coaching him in NC and they knew each other for years?

George Anderson
05-07-2007, 12:49 PM
I However, if you fire Narron who will you get to replace him. I would like to see Frank Robinson come in and manage as he is a no BS guy and plays the old fashioned way of "You will play where I tell you or you will sit". I get sick of seeing these multi-million dollar athletes getting pampered in any sport.

Frank as a manager has hardly been a success. There are lots out there better than Frank Robinson.

flyer85
05-07-2007, 12:52 PM
What's Trader Jack doing these days? :)

flyer85
05-07-2007, 12:55 PM
On acquiring Hamilton, there wasn't any great scouting coup either. There was nothing to scout, he played a few weeks last year after sitting out for almost 4 years. It was just a case that his talent was remembered and WK was willing to take a chance because there really wasn't any risk involved.

Screwball
05-07-2007, 01:13 PM
Just remember the old saying: "You can't fire the players".

In many sports, that's true. In basbeall, not so much. Just ask Rheal Cormier, Chris Hammond, Rick White, D'Angelo Jimenez, Joe Mays etc. etc. I really think that if Narron had some lights out guys in the bullpen, he'd look like a much better manager...

As Sparky Anderson once said, "The players make the manager, it's never the other way around."

terminator
05-07-2007, 01:17 PM
Firing a manager after 31 games of near .500 ball while dealing with a lousy bullpen would send a message throughout the organization and baseball . . . but it wouldn't be a good one to send to current or prospective players and coaches IMHO.

It's worth noting that the Reds are on pace to win 73 games with a team that most people thought was a sub-.500 team going into the season . . . while the bullpen struggles and the hitting has been very uneven (again which most people expected).

KronoRed
05-07-2007, 01:29 PM
Hard to make a big splash after the season has started. If Narron goes I think we get Dent as manager. Unimpressive if you ask me.

Like a Miley to Narron change

Marc D
05-07-2007, 02:02 PM
Firing a manager after 31 games of near .500 ball while dealing with a lousy bullpen would send a message throughout the organization and baseball . . . but it wouldn't be a good one to send to current or prospective players and coaches IMHO.

It's worth noting that the Reds are on pace to win 73 games with a team that most people thought was a sub-.500 team going into the season . . . while the bullpen struggles and the hitting has been very uneven (again which most people expected).


Keeping a manager in place after 193 games of sub .500 ball while letting your GM thinks the lousy bullpen and weakened offense are o.k. sends a message of its own....mediocrity is ok, I (as an owner) will accept losing.

BC put his credability firmly on the line when he came in promising a winner. Right now he has employees making him look bad. I don't care what line of work you are in, thats not conducive to a long career.

If people aren't worried about getting fired when performance is below par for an extended period of time you have a corporate culture that condones failure.

BC will be sending a message one way or the other.

coachw513
05-07-2007, 02:35 PM
I would like to see Frank Robinson come in and manage as he is a no BS guy and plays the old fashioned way of "You will play where I tell you or you will sit". I get sick of seeing these multi-million dollar athletes getting pampered in any sport.

I am not advocating change (way too early, no way you blame Narron for an inconsistent and leaky bullpen) but I am very fond of Frank Robinson and have always held his managerial talent in high-esteem...

He takes "old school" to the "nth" power...

dfs
05-07-2007, 02:57 PM
Also, I agree with the poster who suggested that the BP participants should have assigned roles attuned to their separate abilities. Not that they should be adhered to in stone every single game, but they should be used in their assigned roles as much as possible. Narron does seem to abuse his BP and you never have any idea of whom he might call on until the guy's announced... because they have no assigned roles.

Check out the games appeared vs innings pitched for the reds pen.
Almost every single guy in the pen is being used as a loogy. Nobody is averaging an inning or more per appearance.

David Weathers 13 games 12 2/3 innings
Todd Coffey 18 games 15 2/3 innings
Kirk Saarloos 17 games 15 2/3 innings
Victor Santos 14 games 13 1/3 innings
Coutlangus 13 9 1/3
Cormier 6 3
Salmon 2 2 2/3
Burton 1 1/3

The only guy averaging an inning per appearance is Brad Salmon who only has two appearances. These guys are pitching ALL the time. Even when they don't appear in the game, they warm up. It's no wonder they started the season strong and then started getting pounded. It's a usage problem.

Compare and contrast with Tony LaRussa over in St. Louis. La Russa is famous for micromanaging matchups and swapping relievers in and out. Five guys in the St. Louis pen are averaging more than an inning an outing, Thompson, Franklin, Hancock Jimninez and Dove. It's more sustainable for the guys doing the throwing. They know when they'll be in the game and their arms have time to heal when they aren't being called on to throw every night.

93 innings from the Cardinal bullpen. 82 from the reds. 96 innings out of the brewers relievers...3 of them with more innings than appearances. mets have the best pen in the game right now..94 innings....four of their pitchers including the closer are regularly going an inning or more every time out.

3 of the top 10 pitching appearance leaders are on the reds. With the starting pitchers throwing as well as they have, it's inconcievable that the reds have that many guys on the leaderboard for appearances. It's not uncommon for the reds to get 7 innings from the starter, use 3 pitcher and have 6 guys warm up. You can't win like that. Guy's arms will fall off.

It's maddening that the cincy press hasn't picked up on this. They are following the party line that there is no talent in the bullpen because there is no recognized stud closer. It wouldn't matter. you could have Charlton, Dibble and Myers down there and WITH THIS USAGE PATTERN, the bullpen would suck.

Till the usage pattern gets fixed, the reds will not be able to establish any kind of bullpen success. Without a good bullpen, the team can't succeed deep into the post season. Frankly, it's the biggest organizational problem they have right now. You can swap the names all you want. It won't matter.

membengal
05-07-2007, 02:58 PM
Quality post, dfs. In every respect.

coachw513
05-07-2007, 03:05 PM
Check out the games appeared vs innings pitched for the reds pen.
Almost every single guy in the pen is being used as a loogy. Nobody is averaging an inning or more per appearance.

David Weathers 13 games 12 2/3 innings
Todd Coffey 18 games 15 2/3 innings
Kirk Saarloos 17 games 15 2/3 innings
Victor Santos 14 games 13 1/3 innings
Coutlangus 13 9 1/3
Cormier 6 3
Salmon 2 2 2/3
Burton 1 1/3

The only guy averaging an inning per appearance is Brad Salmon who only has two appearances. These guys are pitching ALL the time. Even when they don't appear in the game, they warm up. It's no wonder they started the season strong and then started getting pounded. It's a usage problem.

Compare and contrast with Tony LaRussa over in St. Louis. La Russa is famous for micromanaging matchups and swapping relievers in and out. Five guys in the St. Louis pen are averaging more than an inning an outing, Thompson, Franklin, Hancock Jimninez and Dove. It's more sustainable for the guys doing the throwing. They know when they'll be in the game and their arms have time to heal when they aren't being called on to throw every night.

93 innings from the Cardinal bullpen. 82 from the reds. 96 innings out of the brewers relievers...3 of them with more innings than appearances. mets have the best pen in the game right now..94 innings....four of their pitchers including the closer are regularly going an inning or more every time out.

3 of the top 10 pitching appearance leaders are on the reds. With the starting pitchers throwing as well as they have, it's inconcievable that the reds have that many guys on the leaderboard for appearances. It's not uncommon for the reds to get 7 innings from the starter, use 3 pitcher and have 6 guys warm up. You can't win like that. Guy's arms will fall off.

It's maddening that the cincy press hasn't picked up on this. They are following the party line that there is no talent in the bullpen because there is no recognized stud closer. It wouldn't matter. you could have Charlton, Dibble and Myers down there and WITH THIS USAGE PATTERN, the bullpen would suck.

Till the usage pattern gets fixed, the reds will not be able to establish any kind of bullpen success. Without a good bullpen, the team can't succeed deep into the post season. Frankly, it's the biggest organizational problem they have right now. You can swap the names all you want. It won't matter.

Great research...question to all (I don't know the answer):

Is it more taxing to have more regular work and less number of pitches/batters faced or less regular work and more number of pitches/batters faced???...clearly this is the argument you are presenting and I can't "argue" it, but I just didn't know if we can sustantiate the opinion...

It's obviously the question of "staying sharp" and "staying fresh"...though, clearly we aren't very sharp right now :thumbdown

redsmetz
05-07-2007, 03:27 PM
Keeping a manager in place after 193 games of sub .500 ball while letting your GM thinks the lousy bullpen and weakened offense are o.k. sends a message of its own....mediocrity is ok, I (as an owner) will accept losing.

BC put his credability firmly on the line when he came in promising a winner. Right now he has employees making him look bad. I don't care what line of work you are in, thats not conducive to a long career.

If people aren't worried about getting fired when performance is below par for an extended period of time you have a corporate culture that condones failure.

BC will be sending a message one way or the other.

Of course, this would only be true if you're running an organization solely for the here and now. I understand what Cast said about building a winner and wanting it sooner and not later, but, we're still only about a year and half into things. I'm at a loss for the lagging patience on what clearly would be a monumental task.

Falls City Beer
05-07-2007, 03:33 PM
Check out the games appeared vs innings pitched for the reds pen.
Almost every single guy in the pen is being used as a loogy. Nobody is averaging an inning or more per appearance.

David Weathers 13 games 12 2/3 innings
Todd Coffey 18 games 15 2/3 innings
Kirk Saarloos 17 games 15 2/3 innings
Victor Santos 14 games 13 1/3 innings
Coutlangus 13 9 1/3
Cormier 6 3
Salmon 2 2 2/3
Burton 1 1/3

The only guy averaging an inning per appearance is Brad Salmon who only has two appearances. These guys are pitching ALL the time. Even when they don't appear in the game, they warm up. It's no wonder they started the season strong and then started getting pounded. It's a usage problem.

Compare and contrast with Tony LaRussa over in St. Louis. La Russa is famous for micromanaging matchups and swapping relievers in and out. Five guys in the St. Louis pen are averaging more than an inning an outing, Thompson, Franklin, Hancock Jimninez and Dove. It's more sustainable for the guys doing the throwing. They know when they'll be in the game and their arms have time to heal when they aren't being called on to throw every night.

93 innings from the Cardinal bullpen. 82 from the reds. 96 innings out of the brewers relievers...3 of them with more innings than appearances. mets have the best pen in the game right now..94 innings....four of their pitchers including the closer are regularly going an inning or more every time out.

3 of the top 10 pitching appearance leaders are on the reds. With the starting pitchers throwing as well as they have, it's inconcievable that the reds have that many guys on the leaderboard for appearances. It's not uncommon for the reds to get 7 innings from the starter, use 3 pitcher and have 6 guys warm up. You can't win like that. Guy's arms will fall off.

It's maddening that the cincy press hasn't picked up on this. They are following the party line that there is no talent in the bullpen because there is no recognized stud closer. It wouldn't matter. you could have Charlton, Dibble and Myers down there and WITH THIS USAGE PATTERN, the bullpen would suck.

Till the usage pattern gets fixed, the reds will not be able to establish any kind of bullpen success. Without a good bullpen, the team can't succeed deep into the post season. Frankly, it's the biggest organizational problem they have right now. You can swap the names all you want. It won't matter.


I would like to see more evidence. And I'm certainly not willing to just believe that having Dibble, Charlton, and Myers under this usage pattern would reduce them to Chris Hammond-circa-2006-ineffectiveness.

I think it works in reverse more often than people think: great pitchers carve out their usage patterns by not sucking and allowing the manager to leave them in.

Still, though, Jerry's seeming randomness with the pen is certainly puzzling at times.

Marc D
05-07-2007, 03:37 PM
Of course, this would only be true if you're running an organization solely for the here and now. I understand what Cast said about building a winner and wanting it sooner and not later, but, we're still only about a year and half into things. I'm at a loss for the lagging patience on what clearly would be a monumental task.

Lagging patience? Its been 7 years. I know thats not all on the current regime but it sure doesn't help the fans patience. Also, there have been several red flags in the past 18 months of this monumental task that lead one to at least wonder if WK is up to the job.

dfs
05-07-2007, 04:05 PM
I would like to see more evidence. And I'm certainly not willing to just believe that having Dibble, Charlton, and Myers under this usage pattern would reduce them to Chris Hammond-circa-2006-ineffectiveness.

I understand what you are saying about having them carve out their roles by being effective, but Chris Hammond was the one that made me sit up and take notice.

Look at his game log for 06.

He had a couple of bad outings early and pretty much got buried in the pen. Then he started pitching better till he got to be Jerry's "hot hand" through May and all of a sudden he was being called on every night in June and...guess what, he fell apart unable to handle the workload. By the 80th game of the season, he had appeared or warmed up in more than half of them and he was ineffective.

If you carve out a role in this system you get overexposed, your arm gets destroyed and suddenly...you're a no-talent ineffective bum.

Toddy Coffey is the second verse same as the first. The guy CAN pitch. He just can't pitch every night and be expected to be effective. Longer outings less often. They won't get better till it happens.

dfs
05-07-2007, 10:36 PM
7+ innings out of the starter.
reliever A comes in to face one batter (whom he walks)
reliever B comes in gets an out and gives up a three run bomb.

Reliever a had yesterday off but pitched three days in a row before that.
Reliever b has pitched four days in a row.

You can't win doing that to guys. I don't care WHO they are. The press is gonna start talking about what a great job Narron has done despite the no-talent bullpen.

bah.

snowstorm
05-07-2007, 10:40 PM
Well, I think the hot seat just got a little bit warmer.

Newman4
05-07-2007, 11:02 PM
Narron after tonight's game:

http://juice.box.sk/upload/00000877.jpg

BigJohn
05-08-2007, 11:24 AM
If he hasn't got enough sense not to bring those losers in the game, Fire him!

I don't know what the answer is but both Coffey and Stanton are WRONG ANSWER!!!

I say it is time to trade EE for a Closer!

redsmetz
05-08-2007, 11:26 AM
If he hasn't got enough sense not to bring those losers in the game, Fire him!

I don't know what the answer is but both Coffey and Stanton are WRONG ANSWER!!!

I say it is time to trade EE for a Closer!

Another day, another county heard from. Oh well, same old; same old.

oneupper
05-08-2007, 11:57 AM
Last year the bullpen sucked, so WK went out and got a new one.

The new bullpen still sucks...maybe we should try something different (like a new manager).

Falls City Beer
05-08-2007, 11:58 AM
Last year the bullpen sucked, so WK went out and got a new one.

The new bullpen still sucks...maybe we should try something different (like a new manager).


Or new general manager.

oneupper
05-08-2007, 12:02 PM
Or new general manager.

That would be the next step up the ladder (if all else fails).

Thing is, I believe you can do a LOT worse than Krivsky.

Finding someone better than Narron should be a LOT easier.

Falls City Beer
05-08-2007, 12:05 PM
Finding someone better than Narron should be a LOT easier.

But will likely make A LOT less difference in the Reds' W-L record.

Sea Ray
05-08-2007, 12:11 PM
I think they ought to try changing things around in the bullpen before changing the manager. Going with a geriatric laden bullpen has not worked. They're going to need a decision on Burton soon, likewise on Bray. Let's switch some things. If that doesn't work, I try Medlock and folks like that. But we've seen years of what we're seeing now. You can't keep sending the same folks out there and expect different results.