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Team Clark
05-07-2007, 11:58 PM
I know I discussed this last year but to be honest...not much has changed. At least for the better.

I have charted 12 Reds games. I've watched another 7 or 8. What strikes me most is the way the Reds bullpen staff attacks the hitters. Or should I say "approaches". What they are doing is not exactly "attacking". The starters, who have had pretty good success really work off the plate. Meaning they are getting guys out by pitching out of the zone when ahead in the count. Pretty simple theory. When applied consistently you will get overall good results. We knew Harang and Arroyo were quality guys. Lohse has stepped it up, IMO.

What I CAN NOT figure out is the sequence of pitches when the Bullpen is called upon. This is the type of thing an advance scout would notice and have posted on his team's bulletin board. Every pitcher in the pen throws nearly the exact same sequence of pitches in identical situations. The Reds bullpen and even Arroyo from time to time are as predictable as they come. I have several theories on this if you will permit me.

1) The pitchers in the pen are simply not capable of making any adjustments or hitting spots THROUGHOUT the strike zone. Maybe the talent just is not there???

2) The Reds coaching staff is not picking up on these tendencies and don't care to evaluate. Possibly they have people telling them and choose to blow it off. Big egos in Baseball. No one is allowed to know more than you. :laugh:

3) The Reds advance staff (Pete Mackanin) is not able to pinpoint an accurate game plan to attack opposing hitters, therefore, leaving the Reds pitchers to fend for themselves. Pete cost the Reds at least 6-8 Wins last year in my humble estimation. Probably more. I'm just being nice. :rolleyes:


4) The bullpen arms lack the "quality" of pitches to get hitters out. The starters thus far, even Milton occasionally, have executed well. Harang, Arroyo, Lohse and Belisle all have two "quality" repeatable pitches. Even if you know it's coming quality pitches can be difficult to hit. I just don't see that in the Reds pen. Saarloos, Santos and Coffey are so predictable I was able to guess correctly on 38 of 42 pitches during one stretch. (I promise I didn't look at the signs) If I can do it I'm sure the Heltons, Hawpes, Berkmans and anybody else that has a clue can too.

5) The Reds catchers are incapable of thinking through an entire lineup. It's not easy back there but you have to really grab hold of the responsibilities. You have to remember how Berkman reacted to your sequence in the 1st and 4th innings to help set him up in the 6th and 9th. From the looks of what I have in front of me the sequences are not that much diff't. They are not that much diff't from game to game or series to series. If EE is having a fielding slump why are you calling "pull" pitches instead of working away and trying to get the hitter to hit to Gonzo/Phillips? Granted it takes the pitcher to execute for any plan to work but at least you can TRY to call something diff't.

Watch Coffey from now on. Same approach, same sequence of pitches...Over and Over. FB Middle in with no movement. Split/FB/FB/SL/FB= HR. :laugh: Stanton falls in love with that deuce a bit much but you know...you can shake it off too. :laugh: Arroyo gets a little antsy and really starts pitching too fast on occasion. Someone needs to tackle him in the 6th or 7th and give him a breather. :laugh:

Maybe I'm crazy but this team's overall pitching philosophy with runners on and tight jams is about as poor as it gets. I know it sounds like the obvious but the proof is in the details. Just my two cents.

BTW, Josh Hamilton walks on water.

mth123
05-08-2007, 12:02 AM
I vote numbers 1 & 4

mroby85
05-08-2007, 12:04 AM
I vote numbers 1 & 4

i definately agree

RedEye
05-08-2007, 12:07 AM
3) The Reds advance staff (Pete Mackanin) is not able to pinpoint an accurate game plan to attack opposing hitters, therefore, leaving the Reds pitchers to fend for themselves. Pete cost the Reds at least 6-8 Wins last year in my humble estimation. Probably more. I'm just being nice. :rolleyes:


Holy cow, what a great post. I'm intrigued by #3 the most (although it may be the most difficult to pin down). How do you figure this? Do you have specific games in mind? Who are the best advance scouts in baseball, and are there teams that routinely win 6-8 more games because of the guy/girl they have working the job?

redsfan4445
05-08-2007, 12:11 AM
TC.. i wish the Reds would hire you and you could give this feedback and THEY would LISTEN and fix the problems.. heck send it to BOB C> :)

Xavier Redleg
05-08-2007, 12:28 AM
Holy cow, what a great post. I'm intrigued by #3 the most (although it may be the most difficult to pin down). How do you figure this? Do you have specific games in mind? Who are the best advance scouts in baseball, and are there teams that routinely win 6-8 more games because of the guy/girl they have working the job?

I remember last year that it seemed every time the reds faced a rookie pitcher (besides Hirshe from the Stros - we killed him), the batters went up to the plate looking like they had no clue what pitches the rookie had. Some of that has to be on the scouts IMO. I know we're talking about reds pitchers here, but that's just something I noticed about the possible lack of scouting last year.

Team Clark
05-08-2007, 12:38 AM
Holy cow, what a great post. I'm intrigued by #3 the most (although it may be the most difficult to pin down). How do you figure this? Do you have specific games in mind? Who are the best advance scouts in baseball, and are there teams that routinely win 6-8 more games because of the guy/girl they have working the job?

I figure it from my charts and memory. I also use my judgement watching guys take strike after strike while looking for another pitch. "Freel last Sept was the standout. Dunn was next. On the pitching end you can really narrow it down with what I put into this post. Arroyo '06 from July to August. Even some of Sept. Everyone knew what was coming. If you watch the Dodgers attack the Rockies for example and see that the Dodgers held Brad Hawpe to a 1-15 series there is data. Pitches, counts, situations, etc... You have to evaluate how they did that to him. Hawpe comes to town and you pitch EXACTLY opposite of what the Dodgers did and he goes 10-15 with 4 bombs who's to fault? There are other variables involved but you are looking for "opportunities" and tendencies. In this dept the Reds are waaaaaaaaay behind the curve, IMO.

The best advance scout in Baseball? Hmmmmm. There's a lot of 'em. Have to get back to you on that.

Yes, there are teams that win more based on their scouting. It's funny that those teams typically go to the playoffs year after year. The Cards for years have employed phenomenal scouts, same with the Braves and now the White Sox and Indians. One of the better scouts works for the Royals so I guess it's not all about scouting sometimes. :laugh:

I brought up last year that there are about 6-8 teams that scout THEMSELVES. It's so important that I do not have enough time to even accurately describe it. The Cards, Braves and White Sox have been doing it for some time. Now it's starting to catch on.

Team Clark
05-08-2007, 12:39 AM
TC.. i wish the Reds would hire you and you could give this feedback and THEY would LISTEN and fix the problems.. heck send it to BOB C> :)

Thanks for the comments but that will likely not happen. ;)

Ltlabner
05-08-2007, 08:04 AM
I'll go with #1 and #4 with a touch of #5.

#1 and #4 are pretty straight forward. #5 is interesting. You gave the simple example that if EE is struggling, to factor that in, and call pitches that are more likely to end up with Gonzo or BP (if possible). Do our pitchers think that way?

I've heard Arroyo talking many times about his game plan (he describes it) and it's obvious that he's always thinking about how to get a batter out. Sorta Maddux-very lite. I've never heard an intereview with Ross or Javy where they are talking about "their game plan". Doesn't prove anything, but interesting none the less.

storrs19
05-08-2007, 08:23 AM
Last night was another example. Valentin was trying to get Coffey to pitch inside to Berkman and he simply kept sending that straight old fastball down broadway and look what happened. You have to be on the attack when you come out to pitch. Look at how many first pitch strikes and strikes overall our starters throw. You can't just passively throw to hitters, especially good ones. Actually after reviewing it the pitch may have been a changeup. I am not sure. Either way it was right down the middle. I was quite intoxicated by that time. In the 6th inning I go fix a gin and tonic...or three as I know the bullpen is coming up soon.

Strikes Out Looking
05-08-2007, 09:05 AM
Great post TC. I agree with most of it and also would add:

The Reds don't seem to utilize video scouting effectively either. For instance, if I'm in the bullpen and the Rockies are coming to town, wouldn't I go to the video room for a couple of hours and watch some of the Rockies previous games. Don't the Reds have someone breaking this down for the team? And the flip side is the hitters should be doing the same. I know in the book "3 Nights in August" or whatever it was called, the Cardinals extensively use the video room to break down the opposition. It looks to me that the Reds bullpen uses the video monitors to play x-box or something.

As to number 4 on TC's post, I'd say some of the Reds bullpen had "quality' arms at one time. I mean Stanton and Weathers have been around for a long time and have been pretty good at times.

bucksfan2
05-08-2007, 09:15 AM
I was last night and watched Coffey. Me and my buddy were talking about how Coffey doesn't have a second pitch. How Brantly mentioned how Coffey should be able to get out any hitter in the league with the stuff he has but he can't throw another pitch for a strike. First of all Narron made the mistake of leaving Coffey in to face Scott a hitter who kills right handed pitching and who also is a fast ball pitcher. That said Coffey should still have been able to get him out. Coffey preceeded to throw 4 straight 94 mph fastballs. I didn't see the hr pitch because I was watching the ball go over the fence but I would be willing to guess it was another 94 mph fastball. Any average major league hitter can time that pitch and can drive it when thrown over and over again. Something needs to be done with this guy. He has no confidence and needs to learn another pitch.

redsmetz
05-08-2007, 09:30 AM
I was last night and watched Coffey. Me and my buddy were talking about how Coffey doesn't have a second pitch. How Brantly mentioned how Coffey should be able to get out any hitter in the league with the stuff he has but he can't throw another pitch for a strike. First of all Narron made the mistake of leaving Coffey in to face Scott a hitter who kills right handed pitching and who also is a fast ball pitcher. That said Coffey should still have been able to get him out. Coffey preceeded to throw 4 straight 94 mph fastballs. I didn't see the hr pitch because I was watching the ball go over the fence but I would be willing to guess it was another 94 mph fastball. Any average major league hitter can time that pitch and can drive it when thrown over and over again. Something needs to be done with this guy. He has no confidence and needs to learn another pitch.

I mentioned it last night, but Marty & Jeff were discussing the whole scenario of that inning; how it was Stanton's job to come in and get the batter he walked out, then he would have faced the next batter, then we bring in Coffey. The walk threw it all akilter.

I've come around to the thinking that it might do Coffey some good to drop down to Louisville and get himself straightened out. That would be easiest move, and could very well be very productive.

I think any of our relievers have the ability, it seems to lose alot in execution and it's slaughtering us. We can't continue on like this. We've given away so many games that were winnable.

JLB5
05-08-2007, 09:53 AM
I was last night and watched Coffey. Me and my buddy were talking about how Coffey doesn't have a second pitch. How Brantly mentioned how Coffey should be able to get out any hitter in the league with the stuff he has but he can't throw another pitch for a strike. First of all Narron made the mistake of leaving Coffey in to face Scott a hitter who kills right handed pitching and who also is a fast ball pitcher. That said Coffey should still have been able to get him out. Coffey preceeded to throw 4 straight 94 mph fastballs. I didn't see the hr pitch because I was watching the ball go over the fence but I would be willing to guess it was another 94 mph fastball. Any average major league hitter can time that pitch and can drive it when thrown over and over again. Something needs to be done with this guy. He has no confidence and needs to learn another pitch.

It was a change, Javy wiggled 4 fingers. Coffey had thrown all fastballs to that point in his outing. Javy had called for one breaking pitch earlier in the Scott at bat and Coffey shook him off. Javy called for the change, but Coffey through it straight down the middle. Just to note, Welsh mentioned Coffey had success getting outs against Houston with the change last week.

Team Clark
05-08-2007, 10:09 AM
Just to note, Welsh mentioned Coffey had success getting outs against Houston with the change last week.

Don't think for a second that Houston's staff did not take notice of that. Predicatability. It was a changeup. Might as well have been on a rope too.

What happened to Coffey's split. If pitchers are shaking off Breaking balls and splits 8 out of 10 times it means their elbow is sore. Not good.

UK Reds Fan
05-08-2007, 10:10 AM
Would not the advanced scouting and gameplan imployed by the catchers be the same or very similar that the starters are using to get out the same batters? And the starters seem to be doing just fine and we don't exactly have a HOF starting 5 thus far.

I just think the BP guys have issues with talent and pitch location. Tons of balls that are wild in the strike zone as well as getting behind in the count.

Dunner44
05-08-2007, 10:26 AM
Don't think for a second that Houston's staff did not take notice of that. Predicatability. It was a changeup. Might as well have been on a rope too.

What happened to Coffey's split. If pitchers are shaking off Breaking balls and splits 8 out of 10 times it means their elbow is sore. Not good.

I wonder if that could have anything to do with a certian pitcher being WAY overused?

bucksfan2
05-08-2007, 10:37 AM
I wonder if that could have anything to do with a certian pitcher being WAY overused?

Fact of the matter is he is not getting people out. He is relying on a fastball that stays at the same speed the entire at bat. Right now he is not an effective pitcher and as it looks has a ways to go in order to become an effective pitcher. Coffey could have good enough stuff to be a good setup man or a closer he just needs to refine his game and I think AAA should be the place. The reds starters have pitched too good so far this year to have the bullpen lose too many games. Its time for a change and the reds need to do soemthing drastic right now.

Red Leader
05-08-2007, 10:42 AM
It could be the bullpen catching? :dunno:

Far East
05-08-2007, 10:46 AM
It was a change, Javy wiggled 4 fingers. Coffey had thrown all fastballs to that point in his outing. Javy had called for one breaking pitch earlier in the Scott at bat and Coffey shook him off. Javy called for the change, but Coffey through it straight down the middle. Just to note, Welsh mentioned Coffey had success getting outs against Houston with the change last week.
When the centerfield camera showed Javy wiggling the changeup signal, I thought it was a great call -- something the hitter had not seen in that AB, even though it is probably Coffey's 3rd or 4th best pitch.

And if it missed (in the usual down and away spot), then it would have merely been a base on balls. But the execution by Coffey (who wanted to throw a strike) looked to be batting practice location and speed and not enough differential decrease in velocity from a fastball -- I did not see the radar mph on that pitch however. Did any of you?

Brantley observes that the bullpen guy needs to command two different pitches, but Welsh maintained that if Scott was going to hit one out, Coffey should have forced him hit an outside fastball to the opposite field.

edabbs44
05-08-2007, 10:48 AM
Very simple...it's the bullpen. It's not like Mariano and Hoffman are struggling.

Team Clark
05-08-2007, 11:32 AM
It could be the bullpen catching? :dunno:

You know...the guy is responsible for getting the pitchers ready. :D

JLB5
05-08-2007, 11:32 AM
I never see anybody mention Hume. He's been around longer than JN an WK and it has been the same old stuff year after year. He does not seem to have the capacity to help his guys work through the mental issues but they sure seem to develop them on his watch.

Team Clark
05-08-2007, 11:39 AM
I never see anybody mention Hume. He's been around longer than JN an WK and it has been the same old stuff year after year. He does not seem to have the capacity to help his guys work through the mental issues but they sure seem to develop them on his watch.

Hummer's work is well documented. For several years running he had some of the best bullpens in the biz. Several of his pitchers, (Williamson, Gravy, Sullivan) shouted to the heavens praise and glory for Tom. I think he did a pretty good job as Pitching Coach last year too. If your pitchers are pitching scared or just do not have the "stuff".... what can you do? I'm sure if you asked Tom he would accept responsibility. Whatever the problem is it's not one person or one aspect of the game that can claim the blame. My post was to bring to life the myriad of problems that plague the Reds bullpen. In my humble opinion anyway.

Redsland
05-08-2007, 11:52 AM
Don't the Reds have someone breaking this down for the team?
Perhaps you're thinking of the latest addition to the coaching staff and Josh Hamilton BFF, Johnny Narron: Reds Video and Administrative Coach.

coachw513
05-08-2007, 11:55 AM
TC, great post and thread... :thumbup:

It's no more Hume's fault as it is Narron's...

Coffey's confidence is totally gone...where is the guy that blew away the Cards last year in that based loaded, none out situation in the Harang 1-0 win over Carpenter???...its amazing the role the mind plays in professional sports...it's all about confidence...quite honestly, I think it's the same thing with Stanton...

The advance scout discussion is incredibly interesting...I would be intrigued to watch the progession of info about a team/hitter from scout to coaching staff to catcher to pitcher to performance...those are the kinds of things I'd love to be a fly on the wall for...

Once again, great post...

Team Clark
05-08-2007, 12:07 PM
TC, great post and thread... :thumbup:

It's no more Hume's fault as it is Narron's...

Coffey's confidence is totally gone...where is the guy that blew away the Cards last year in that based loaded, none out situation in the Harang 1-0 win over Carpenter???...its amazing the role the mind plays in professional sports...it's all about confidence...quite honestly, I think it's the same thing with Stanton...

The advance scout discussion is incredibly interesting...I would be intrigued to watch the progession of info about a team/hitter from scout to coaching staff to catcher to pitcher to performance...those are the kinds of things I'd love to be a fly on the wall for...

Once again, great post...

Ask Jerry if you can sit in on the meeting.:laugh: Beginning of every series about 3 hours before game time. Pitchers and Catchers meeting. Pole, Hume, Narron, all pitchers and Catchers attend. Mackanin will be on the phone. That would be a great post.

Yachtzee
05-08-2007, 01:04 PM
The advance scout discussion is incredibly interesting...I would be intrigued to watch the progession of info about a team/hitter from scout to coaching staff to catcher to pitcher to performance...those are the kinds of things I'd love to be a fly on the wall for...


"Mr. Telephone Man,
There's something wrong with my line.
When I dial my baby's number
I get a 'click' every time."

I think this is a brilliant discussion. Advance scouting with the Reds has probably suffered the same problem as the rest of the scouting department under the Reds' past regimes. Why pay scouts when all they do is sit around and watch baseball games, right? ;)

I think scouting your own team is a very cool thing to do. I like the idea of having someone watch the team approaching it from an opponent's perspective. It might help identify issues and adapt accordingly.

15fan
05-08-2007, 01:10 PM
So let's take this thread in a different direction:

Oswalt is now 19-1 against the Reds. Have he and his catchers been that good at staying out of patterns and setting up hitters game after game after game over the years? Or are there tendencies / patterns that are eluding the Reds' coaches/scouts/hitters? Or is his stuff so good that he could tell the hitters what's coming ahead of time and still make 'em look foolish?

Puffy
05-08-2007, 01:22 PM
3) The Reds advance staff (Pete Mackanin) is not able to pinpoint an accurate game plan to attack opposing hitters, therefore, leaving the Reds pitchers to fend for themselves. Pete cost the Reds at least 6-8 Wins last year in my humble estimation. Probably more. I'm just being nice.




I've been saying this for 5 years running now - the Reds advance scouts appear to be worthless. When the same guys kill you over and over again maybe its time to change your pattern, to use other teams MO's - yet the Berkman's, Hall's, etc of the world drill us year after year.

Some of that has to do with pitchers executing, I'm sure. But still, when every pitcer you have gets rocked by the same guys constantly and when other teams mediocre pitchers get those guys out with regularity, a good deal has to fall on advance scouting reports, IMO.

Yachtzee
05-08-2007, 01:24 PM
So let's take this thread in a different direction:

Oswalt is now 19-1 against the Reds. Have he and his catchers been that good at staying out of patterns and setting up hitters game after game after game over the years? Or are there tendencies / patterns that are eluding the Reds' coaches/scouts/hitters? Or is his stuff so good that he could tell the hitters what's coming ahead of time and still make 'em look foolish?

I think part of it is Oswalt's skill and part of it is the Astros organization getting him the information he needs to succeed. However, 19-1 is pretty ridiculous against any team, even for a good pitcher, so I have to think there's a certain amount of luck involved as well.

Ltlabner
05-08-2007, 01:31 PM
I think scouting your own team is a very cool thing to do. I like the idea of having someone watch the team approaching it from an opponent's perspective. It might help identify issues and adapt accordingly.

Especially if it's someone who thinks about the game differently than Narron and his coatching staff. Someone who can spot different things and think outside the PTGTRW box.

It would be interesting to know how much money has gone to upgrading the advance scouting department, and possibly a team scout.

coachw513
05-08-2007, 01:41 PM
[QUOTE=Yachtzee;1335305
I think scouting your own team is a very cool thing to do. I like the idea of having someone watch the team approaching it from an opponent's perspective. It might help identify issues and adapt accordingly.[/QUOTE]

I try to have a couple of good basketball people scout my team every year at various points of our season...it's sound principle to have "outsiders" critique one's own methodology and processes...

Rotater Cuff
05-08-2007, 02:12 PM
Team Clark, on Trent Rosecran's blog site: http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/spring/:
someone named David Short has a very insightful article on how Narron, and before him, Boone misuse the Bullpen. I read it and it riveted me, like, what a fresh perspective on the ongoing problem.
Would you mind reading Rosecrans site and letting us know your opinion of this?

Redsland
05-08-2007, 02:16 PM
That's a Zoner. I saw some of those comments scattered across a thread or two.

Like this (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1333694&postcount=56) one. :thumbup:

Chip R
05-08-2007, 03:01 PM
I've been saying this for 5 years running now - the Reds advance scouts appear to be worthless. When the same guys kill you over and over again maybe its time to change your pattern, to use other teams MO's - yet the Berkman's, Hall's, etc of the world drill us year after year.

Some of that has to do with pitchers executing, I'm sure. But still, when every pitcer you have gets rocked by the same guys constantly and when other teams mediocre pitchers get those guys out with regularity, a good deal has to fall on advance scouting reports, IMO.


Not just those guys. It seems that whenever the Reds play the Astros, they have trouble with Everett, Ausmus and Burke. Berkman isn't hitting well against anyone this year except one. I can understand guys like Lee and Berkman and even guys like Biggio and Ensberg hitting well against the Reds but if Everett and Ausmus played against the Reds their entire careers, they would be in the HOF. No one else seems to have problems getting those guys out except the Reds.

Spring~Fields
05-08-2007, 03:10 PM
That submission from the writer on Trent Rosecran's blog site is very interesting as well as Team Clark's and could be pointing to the causation of the problem that leads us to thinking that we see a terrible bullpen, when it could be the amount of usage or the lack of usage to effect the sharpness of the bullpen pitchers.

We have been told that a pitcher x with too much rest can be too strong and not sharp, we have been told that some pitchers, z, y, that if don’t get enough work, that they aren’t sharp. So if a mixed combination of that happening to two or more of the bullpen we would have a confounding of the variables making it difficult to see to get an accurate read to come up with a genuine resolve.

In spring training these guys are fresh and often get to work an inning or two. In everyday play they may or may not get any work, they might only face one batter, some might get over worked etc. They seem fine with work, time spaced.

What’s the history on each of these pitchers. When were they most effective on usage and rest between pitching? I can’t grasp that 3-4 pitchers suddenly become unreliable and terrible, just all of a sudden even if each new game seems to reinforce that they are terrible. It seems to me that there has to be a reason or reasons as with Team Clark's list in his opening post in a combination with what the other writer is saying in the blog site .

hebroncougar
05-08-2007, 03:26 PM
Don't think for a second that Houston's staff did not take notice of that. Predicatability. It was a changeup. Might as well have been on a rope too.

What happened to Coffey's split. If pitchers are shaking off Breaking balls and splits 8 out of 10 times it means their elbow is sore. Not good.


Baseball's a game of adjustments. In one post you say the Reds should pitch Hawpe the exact way the Dodgers do, because they get him out. Yet in another post you say Coffey gets predictable, even though he was getting hitters out that way. So what's the difference? If the Reds pitch to Hawpe the way the Dodgers did, isn't that being predictable? Hawpe knows how people are getting him out, and eventually he's going to make adjustments. That's why it points to numbers 1 & 4. Sure advance scouts can tell you what guys are raking, and what guys are ice.........but your pitchers have to put pitches where they know THEY are the best, and adjust accordingly. If player A can't hit a fastball knee high on the inside corner, and the advance scout tells you that, and your pitcher throws 89, and the scout saw 95, there is nothing the pitcher can do but pitch to his strengths.

hebroncougar
05-08-2007, 03:28 PM
I think part of it is Oswalt's skill and part of it is the Astros organization getting him the information he needs to succeed. However, 19-1 is pretty ridiculous against any team, even for a good pitcher, so I have to think there's a certain amount of luck involved as well.

It's Oswalts ability to take the information, execute it, and his strengths are the Reds weaknesses. Other Houston pitchers haven't had that kind of success, and they are getting the same advanced info.

Spring~Fields
05-08-2007, 03:33 PM
Great post TC. I agree with most of it and also would add:

The Reds don't seem to utilize video scouting effectively either. For instance, if I'm in the bullpen and the Rockies are coming to town, wouldn't I go to the video room for a couple of hours and watch some of the Rockies previous games. Don't the Reds have someone breaking this down for the team? And the flip side is the hitters should be doing the same.

As to number 4 on TC's post, I'd say some of the Reds bullpen had "quality' arms at one time. I mean Stanton and Weathers have been around for a long time and have been pretty good at times.


That seem to make a great deal of sense.

To have competent people reviewing game film for certain points of opponents in previous games to see what the other teams pitching and defense was doing to be effective against the other team and their individual players.

Then match up your defense and pitchers that can execute a copy job of what the other teams did effectively against team x and player y etc. That seems to fit in with what Team Clark indicates a scout or other are to be finding out and for the manager, coaches and players to implement that game plan the next time they are playing that team and players.

Someone is not doing a quality work effort somewhere in the chain, I just can’t believe that 3-4-5 individual pitchers are all terrible at the same time without a reason.

dsmith421
05-08-2007, 03:38 PM
Very simple...it's the bullpen. It's not like Mariano and Hoffman are struggling.

Uh, have you seen Rivera pitch this year? He's been completely ineffective and has apparently lost some velocity.

Yachtzee
05-08-2007, 04:58 PM
It's Oswalts ability to take the information, execute it, and his strengths are the Reds weaknesses. Other Houston pitchers haven't had that kind of success, and they are getting the same advanced info.

That's pretty much what I said. His skill combined with information. Plus, 19-1 is a pretty crazy record to run up against any team and few pitchers own another team so thoroughly that I have to attribute at least some of that to luck. Much of the roster has turned over since Oswalt has started pitching against the Reds, so it can't just be that he's got some magic skill that works against this particular lineup. And there are better pitchers than Oswalt who don't have nearly the record, so that's why I say that at least some luck is involved. It doesn't diminish the fact that he is a darn good pitcher.

Strikes Out Looking
05-08-2007, 05:31 PM
Perhaps you're thinking of the latest addition to the coaching staff and Josh Hamilton BFF, Johnny Narron: Reds Video and Administrative Coach.

Oh great, another Boonesian dynasty!

hebroncougar
05-08-2007, 05:34 PM
That seem to make a great deal of sense.

To have competent people reviewing game film for certain points of opponents in previous games to see what the other teams pitching and defense was doing to be effective against the other team and their individual players.

Then match up your defense and pitchers that can execute a copy job of what the other teams did effectively against team x and player y etc. That seems to fit in with what Team Clark indicates a scout or other are to be finding out and for the manager, coaches and players to implement that game plan the next time they are playing that team and players.

Someone is not doing a quality work effort somewhere in the chain, I just canít believe that 3-4-5 individual pitchers are all terrible at the same time without a reason.

I can. Relievers, especially MR are hit or miss alot. Take a look at Rheal Cormier with the Phillies last year, and with the Reds. But look at him in 2002 and 2005. He was god awful for the Phillies too. Look at Stanton. In 2005 he was so bad for the Yankees, he got released. Then suddenly improved in Wash, only to go bad is Wash. the next year, and figure it out again in the same year in SF. Relievers are the hardest to project IMO because of the so small sample size you see over the year, to facing specialty pinch hitters, usage factors (like with Narron as your manager).

Team Clark
05-10-2007, 03:06 PM
Team Clark, on Trent Rosecran's blog site: http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/spring/:
someone named David Short has a very insightful article on how Narron, and before him, Boone misuse the Bullpen. I read it and it riveted me, like, what a fresh perspective on the ongoing problem.
Would you mind reading Rosecrans site and letting us know your opinion of this?

The blog was pretty interesting. I can certainly concur with him about the bullpen usage. There is a fine line between using a guy often enough and over using him. Right now there are a few guys that are being abused. On the flip side... what are your choices? If you have to keep going to them and the pitchers say they can pitch...well? Not an easy job to manage a bullpen but it doesn't take a genius to screw one up either. The Hammond example was pretty interesting. A 40 year old arm was abused and run out of the league coming off of a good year. JMO

dfs
05-10-2007, 03:41 PM
The blog was pretty interesting. I can certainly concur with him about the bullpen usage. There is a fine line between using a guy often enough and over using him. Right now there are a few guys that are being abused. On the flip side... what are your choices? If you have to keep going to them and the pitchers say they can pitch...well? Not an easy job to manage a bullpen but it doesn't take a genius to screw one up either. The Hammond example was pretty interesting. A 40 year old arm was abused and run out of the league coming off of a good year. JMO

Thank you for your kind comments.

I've been watching this issue for a while and the thing is that it isn't just "Right now there are a few guys that are being abused." There are ALWAYS a couple of guys being overused while the rest of the pen pretty much sits around. Right now it's Stanton and Coffey, but Coffey and Weathers both pretty much went through the exact same thing Hammond did last year. Hammond retired. Weathers started to suck and then sat down with an injury. Coffey pretty much sat around for a couple of weeks then started to get used more and more.

You see it again today. The starter gets them 6 2/3 inning and a four run lead. How many relievers does it take to get 7 outs with a four run lead? Right now the answer is 3 in game and I don't know how many warmed up. Coutlangus pitches to one guy and is then lifted without even a pinch hitter. With a four run lead?

After the off season I felt the big issues facing the reds as an organization this year was how Jerry Narron handled the bullpen and how Edwin fared. I was a big fan of the offseason. Gave Narron and Krivsky a great deal of credit. Now........well, not so much.