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edabbs44
05-08-2007, 10:24 PM
I am happy to announce that Wayne is well on his way to becoming a saint. He has officially performed the miracle of constructing a bullpen which is worse than the debacle of '06. Congrats Wayne...most said it could never be done.

I'm sorry to say, but Wayne has to go. Actually, I'm not that sorry. He's been bad.

Peace out Krivsky.

http://www.wildwildwillsmith.com/images/peace-out_324x448.jpg

WMR
05-08-2007, 10:26 PM
In.

Tom Servo
05-08-2007, 10:35 PM
Hire Paul DePodesta.

WMR
05-08-2007, 10:36 PM
Hire Paul DePodesta.

::orgasm::

Falls City Beer
05-08-2007, 10:37 PM
Hire Paul DePodesta.

Yeah, I'd like MY chances of gaining the GM-ship over De Podesta; I imagine Cast would call him a pencil-neck geek. Not a firm handshake kind of guy that Cast likes.

KoryMac5
05-08-2007, 10:38 PM
The bullpen is awful and I don't see any relief in sight. To blame one person though for this mess is a bit harsh and shortsighted. From reading many of your threads I know your true feelings in regards to our GM and I frankly think that those feelings are clouding your thoughts. Narron, Krivs, Hume, Pole, Allen and Cast have to take responsibility for the mess that we call a bullpen that has turned into bullcrap. A move needs to be made and some players need to be dealt to stabilize this pen. How much are we willing to spend on Linebrink or Cordero etc...

Aronchis
05-08-2007, 10:41 PM
Cast would what? Considering Cast was rejected by the Indians assistant(can't remember his name) and the Marlins Hill, I think he covered the bases.

The problem is, the Reds are not a attractive GM spot. Hence, you better dig. Krivsky got the job through the people he would eventually fire.

If we want power arms youth movement in the pen, you better be patient. That will take 2-3 years to accomplish.

Falls City Beer
05-08-2007, 10:43 PM
Cast would what? Considering Cast was rejected by the Indians assistant(can't remember his name) and the Marlins Hill, I think he covered the bases.

The problem is, the Reds are not a attractive GM spot. Hence, you better dig. Krivsky got the job through the people he would eventually fire.

If we want power arms youth movement in the pen, you better be patient. That will take 2-3 years to accomplish.

Then he needs to spend more money and try harder to get the right guy for the job.

edabbs44
05-08-2007, 10:44 PM
The bullpen is awful and I don't see any relief in sight. To blame one person though for this mess is a bit harsh and shortsighted. From reading many of your threads I know your true feelings in regards to our GM and I frankly think that those feelings are clouding your thoughts. Narron, Krivs, Hume, Pole, Allen and Cast have to take responsibility for the mess that we call a bullpen that has turned into bull####. A move needs to be made and some players need to be dealt to stabilize this pen. How much are we willing to spend on Linebrink or Cordero etc...

How on God's good earth can someone lay the blame of the bullpen on anyone but Krivsky? He's the GM.

He made "the trade"
He signed Weathers
He signed Stanton
He dealt for Cormier and signed him to an extension
He traded for Saarloos
He signed Santos

This is his bullpen. Blame Narron or Pole? For what...not being able to squeeze water from a stone? You can only do so much. At some point, you need someone with talent on the mound.

I'll throw a little blame at Big Bob. He talked a big game about spending money and putting a winner on the field.

WMR
05-08-2007, 10:46 PM
How on God's good earth can someone lay the blame of the bullpen on anyone but Krivsky? He's the GM.

He made "the trade"
He signed Weathers
He signed Stanton
He dealt for Cormier and signed him to an extension
He traded for Saarloos
He signed Santos

This is his bullpen. Blame Narron or Pole? For what...not being able to squeeze water from a stone? You can only do so much. At some point, you need someone with talent on the mound.

I'll throw a little blame at Big Bob. He talked a big game about spending money and putting a winner on the field.

:thumbup:

Yachtzee
05-08-2007, 10:47 PM
Cast would what? Considering Cast was rejected by the Indians assistant(can't remember his name) and the Marlins Hill, I think he covered the bases.

The problem is, the Reds are not a attractive GM spot. Hence, you better dig. Krivsky got the job through the people he would eventually fire.

If we want power arms youth movement in the pen, you better be patient. That will take 2-3 years to accomplish.

Antonetti was the Indians assistant. If you want to make the Reds attractive to a GM like that, you're going to have to give him free rain over baseball operations to let him clean house, or else you have to hire a mentor of his as team president. I think there's concern about the way the Reds have been run over the years that scares away top candidates, especially with the "lowest bidder" mentality toward hiring decisions in the farm system.

I can be patient about the farm system, but I'd like to see some of these young arms start making it above AA before turning into pumpkins.

WMR
05-08-2007, 10:48 PM
Don't forget that the deals for Weathers and Stanton are multi-year, making them near impossible to just eat till next season.

Aronchis
05-08-2007, 10:49 PM
Then he needs to spend more money and try harder to get the right guy for the job.

Listen, spending money is great but the Reds only have a finite sample. What happens if Krivsky builds a top notch minor league system? Maybe all the money should be put there.

Aronchis
05-08-2007, 10:50 PM
Don't forget that the deals for Weathers and Stanton are multi-year, making them near impossible to just eat till next season.
Nothing personally, but Weathers would be a easy trade bait. Stanton maybe to if he recovers mid-years.

WMR
05-08-2007, 10:51 PM
You think so? Maybe Weathers, I guess, but that's a hell of a big IF where Stanton is concerned.

Falls City Beer
05-08-2007, 10:53 PM
Listen, spending money is great but the Reds only have a finite sample. What happens if Krivsky builds a top notch minor league system? Maybe all the money should be put there.

I don't want Krivsky running the minor leagues. I want him far away from baseball decisions for this franchise.

There are people--right now as I type--floating around MLB who are more skilled than Wayne at acquiring players for and building a MLB team; one of those individuals needs to be found by a hiring committee.

Aronchis
05-08-2007, 10:53 PM
You think so? Maybe Weathers, I guess, but that's a hell of a big IF where Stanton is concerned.

Please sir, Weathers just isn't dealable, but other teams will ask if he is available. Nothing wrong with Stormy in the 7th. Stanton may be done, but he still isn't much to eat. Don't overblow what doesn't need to be overblown.

edabbs44
05-08-2007, 10:53 PM
Listen, spending money is great but the Reds only have a finite sample. What happens if Krivsky builds a top notch minor league system? Maybe all the money should be put there.

HELL YEAH!

You're preaching to the choir. Do a quick search on my posts throughout the off-season. Stanton? Pissed away $5 million. Cormier? Same thing. Conine? Please. I know that Gonzalez is playing well, but if this team isn't getting better and making a playoff push by 2009, then that was wasted money as well.

If you're gonna spend money, then SPEND IT. Don't half-ass it and try and be semi-competitive. If you're not gonna try and win, then bank the money and put it towards the future.

Spring~Fields
05-08-2007, 10:57 PM
I'll throw a little blame at Big Bob. He talked a big game about spending money and putting a winner on the field.


"Should fans assume that the Reds will be just as aggressive in pursuing players this winter as they were in targeting two national broadcasters?"

"Absolutely," Castellini said, without hesitation. "Absolutely."

Source:
http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs....611010333/1027

Well Bob you tickled the ears of some of the optimist around here, but the record is saying loudly something else.

KoryMac5
05-08-2007, 10:57 PM
Again everyone we have in the pen Weathers, Stanton, Santos, Saarloos, Coffey, Salmon etc... are all middle relievers. Any bullpen needs that one shut down option as a stabilizing force. When Eddie got here last year the pen seemed to to turn things around. I think making a move with a team like Houston for Lidge or San Diego for Linebrink will help matters a lot. Again laying all the blame on one person is not right. Krivs is 100% responsible for his part in this, but so are the other members mentioned.

edabbs44
05-08-2007, 11:00 PM
Again everyone we have in the pen Weathers, Stanton, Santos, Saarloos, Coffey, Salmon etc... are all middle relievers. Any bullpen needs that one shut down option as a stabilizing force. When Eddie got here last year the pen seemed to to turn things around. I think making a move with a team like Houston for Lidge or San Diego for Linebrink will help matters a lot. Again laying all the blame on one person is not right. Krivs is 100% responsible for his part in this, but so are the other members mentioned.

Who would Wayne be able to deal for one of those guys? I would be scared to see the headline.

Krivsky unloads farm system, nabs closer

WMR
05-08-2007, 11:00 PM
You just said it yourself, Wayne built a bull-pen full of middle relievers (at best).

Who exactly, pray tell, should share the blame for that along with him?

Falls City Beer
05-08-2007, 11:04 PM
Again laying all the blame on one person is not right. Krivs is 100% responsible for his part in this, but so are the other members mentioned.

To which I say: so what?

The only one who matters is Wayne; the only one who can fix it is the GM, ultimately.

KoryMac5
05-08-2007, 11:09 PM
You just said it yourself, Wayne built a bull-pen full of middle relievers (at best).

Who exactly, pray tell, should share the blame for that along with him?

I also said he was 100% responsible for his part in that. Again I look at a baseball team and its front office as a system, not seperate individual parts. Moves are made as an organization not as one person. Cast did say he was going to open the purse strings to put a winner on the field but a 65 million dollar payroll doesn't get you a decent offense, decent starting pitching, and a decent bullpen. One of these is going to suffer and it happens to be the bullpen that got short changed.

cincrazy
05-08-2007, 11:11 PM
Krivsky's also acquired Brandon Phillips and Bronson Arroyo for a bag of balls and 3 rolls of toilet paper. Not to mention smart signings in Hatteberg, David Ross for a stretch (the jury is still out on that one), and the acquisition of Hamilton. I have no problem in blaming WK for the pen, but the man's not exactly incompetent. The fact is, if WK doesn't make "The Trade" (in which he gave up a league average outfielder in Kearns and a league average SS at BEST in Lopez), many people on this board don't have a problem with him.

I'm not happy with the job he's done so far this year, I'll admit that. But you're not going to pull the Titantic out of the ocean over night with a tow truck. This entire franchise is one big absolute mess, going back WAY before Wayne ever showed up. On the surface, it's Wayne's fault. But if you truly want to point a finger at someone for this franchise's predicament, take a look at what Mrs. Schott did in wreaking havoc to our scouting department back in the early 90's. It began then, and has only went down hill since.

membengal
05-08-2007, 11:12 PM
Wrong, KoryMac. Plain wrong. The bullpen didn't get short-changed. WK spent a LOT of money (comparitively speaking) on it. Stanton's contract. Cormier's extension. Coffey's extension. Dealing for Saarloos. That's approximately $7 million dollars right there. No one to blame for what we are seeing with the bullpen other than WK. Period.

Falls City Beer
05-08-2007, 11:14 PM
Krivsky's also acquired Brandon Phillips and Bronson Arroyo for a bag of balls and 3 rolls of toilet paper. Not to mention smart signings in Hatteberg, David Ross for a stretch (the jury is still out on that one), and the acquisition of Hamilton. I have no problem in blaming WK for the pen, but the man's not exactly incompetent. The fact is, if WK doesn't make "The Trade" (in which he gave up a league average outfielder in Kearns and a league average SS at BEST in Lopez), many people on this board don't have a problem with him.

I'm not happy with the job he's done so far this year, I'll admit that. But you're not going to pull the Titantic out of the ocean over night with a tow truck. This entire franchise is one big absolute mess, going back WAY before Wayne ever showed up. On the surface, it's Wayne's fault. But if you truly want to point a finger at someone for this franchise's predicament, take a look at what Mrs. Schott did in wreaking havoc to our scouting department back in the early 90's. It began then, and has only went down hill since.

I realize we need a GM that can go 7 for 10 from 3-point land; but so goes it...

That's the GM we need. Not one who trips on his shoelaces. Even once.

KoryMac5
05-08-2007, 11:18 PM
7 million on relief pitching, 68 million total payroll the bullpen is getting 10% of the total pie. Sounds like short changed to me.

membengal
05-08-2007, 11:20 PM
Wrong again, KoryMac. I didn't add up all the bullpen salaries. I just went over the new money. Of the money spent this off-season on the team, a LARGE percentage went into the bullpen.

KoryMac5
05-08-2007, 11:24 PM
Wrong again, KoryMac. I didn't add up all the bullpen salaries. I just went over the new money. Of the money spent this off-season on the team, a LARGE percentage went into the bullpen.

It adds up to about 10 million spent on the pen for this year, again with a payroll of 68 million that is not a lot in the grand scheme of things. All I am saying is that if Cast would open the purse strings to about 75-78 million all three areas of this team would be able to compete at similiar levels.

membengal
05-08-2007, 11:28 PM
And all I am saying, given the constraints of the market, is that WK and WK alone is responsible for what he brought in. Billy Beane does not have a ton to spend on relief pitching either, and they are pretty OK there. Etc. etc.

When it comes to the pen, I refuse to hide behind any woe-is-us-we-do-not-spend-enough crap. A good pen can be had, even on a budget. But plenty of observers questioned the moves that were made this off-season, when a LOT of money (Reds version of a lot) was spent on dreck. And now, surprise! Look! The team bought dreck! And it's dreckful! What a shocker.

That's ALL on WK. All of it.

KoryMac5
05-08-2007, 11:40 PM
And all I am saying, given the constraints of the market, is that WK and WK alone is responsible for what he brought in. Billy Beane does not have a ton to spend on relief pitching either, and they are pretty OK there. Etc. etc.

When it comes to the pen, I refuse to hide behind any woe-is-us-we-do-not-spend-enough crap. A good pen can be had, even on a budget. But plenty of observers questioned the moves that were made this off-season, when a LOT of money (Reds version of a lot) was spent on dreck. And now, surprise! Look! The team bought dreck! And it's dreckful! What a shocker.

That's ALL on WK. All of it.

The A's payroll is 80 million total vs. the Reds at 68 million. Teams that win and win consistently are willing to spend the money. The Cardinals, Yankees, Red Sox etc... all spend coin on putting solid teams together. 68 million doesn't do it especially since 9 million is tied into dead weight (Milton). To me to be competitive in this day and age you should expect to spend about 75 to 80 million dollars on a ballclub which the Reds haven't done, but promised to do.

George Anderson
05-09-2007, 12:47 AM
Antonetti was the Indians assistant. If you want to make the Reds attractive to a GM like that, you're going to have to give him free rain over baseball operations to let him clean house, or else you have to hire a mentor of his as team president. I think there's concern about the way the Reds have been run over the years that scares away top candidates, especially with the "lowest bidder" mentality toward hiring decisions in the farm system.



Your going to have a real hard time hiring a quality GM when the previous one was fired after only 14 months on the job. No GM worth a damn is going to wanna walk into to such a situation where the owner is this impatient.

Aronchis
05-09-2007, 01:00 AM
It adds up to about 10 million spent on the pen for this year, again with a payroll of 68 million that is not a lot in the grand scheme of things. All I am saying is that if Cast would open the purse strings to about 75-78 million all three areas of this team would be able to compete at similiar levels.

and then it still wouldn't be enough. Your buying the hype. The Reds have more needs than bullpen.

durl
05-09-2007, 10:20 AM
Early on, this bullpen performed quite well and it looked like Krivsky had worked magic. Three weeks of bad losses and now he's incompetent.

I believe Krivsky put together an adequate collection of pitchers, they've simply dropped the ball the past couple of weeks. Perhaps they over-acheived early on, but the group that came north with the team WERE effective for a time.

Now I believe it's time to change tactics. Bring some kids up and see what they can do. I don't believe the bullpen can get much worse at this point.

westofyou
05-09-2007, 10:27 AM
Howsam signed Bob Lee, Pedro Ramos and Bill Kelso... good thing he wasn't canned for that.

nate
05-09-2007, 10:37 AM
There are people--right now as I type--floating around MLB who are more skilled than Wayne at acquiring players for and building a MLB team; one of those individuals needs to be found by a hiring committee.

Who would you suggest we "pull ashore"?

Once ashore and dry, what should they do to make this team better?

REDREAD
05-09-2007, 10:39 AM
How on God's good earth can someone lay the blame of the bullpen on anyone but Krivsky? He's the GM.

He made "the trade"
He signed Weathers
He signed Stanton
He dealt for Cormier and signed him to an extension
He traded for Saarloos
He signed Santos

This is his bullpen. Blame Narron or Pole? For what...not being able to squeeze water from a stone? You can only do so much. At some point, you need someone with talent on the mound.

I'll throw a little blame at Big Bob. He talked a big game about spending money and putting a winner on the field.


Yes. I said earlier that Wayne deserves 90% of the blame for this pen. Now that the season has progressed, I think he deserves 100%. Hard to blame Narron when every option he has pretty much is poor.

Wayne had plenty of financial flexibility this season, but apparently liked Weathers and Sarloos over Bradford..

Basically, everyone in this pen is here because Wayne wants him here. I don't mind Coffey and the rookie that lost the game last night (forget his name EDIT: salmon) having growing pains.. that is to be expected. But the "anchors" of Wayne's pen.. Maj, Bray, Weathers, Stanton, Cormier.. have been pure disasters. Now some may say that those guys weren't supposed to be the anchors.. but come on.. if they weren't supposed to be anchors of the pen, who is? Certainly not Sarloos. Certainly not the nonroster invitee (Santos)..
Certainly not a rookie just called up, or the young Coffey.

The guys being paid the big bucks who were given multiyear contracts and the guys Wayne traded starting players for were supposed to be the bullpen anchors, and they are failing miserably.

dfs
05-09-2007, 10:40 AM
You just said it yourself, Wayne built a bull-pen full of middle relievers (at best).

Who exactly, pray tell, should share the blame for that along with him?

....just fwiw........two different gm's in a row have built pretty much the exact same type of bullpen. While other options existed within the organization, the manager chose to bring north pretty much the exact same type of bullpen both years. He's used the guys in the pen the same way and it just hasn't worked out.

You can lay the blame on Wayne if you want to, and sure player aquisition is clearly firmly in the GM's baliwick, but I think DanO last year and Wayne this year acquired the type of pitcher that Narron wanted...how many times did we here it with Saarloos and Santos..."they can pitch in all situations." I think they may all hang together, but I think they'll hang with the type of bullpen that Narron wanted.

I could be wrong about that, but the pickup of Hamilton gives us some insight that there really is communication between Wayne and Narron. I can't imagine that Wayne went out of his way to saddle Narron with guys he didn't want.

REDREAD
05-09-2007, 10:44 AM
Listen, spending money is great but the Reds only have a finite sample. .

Which is exactly what makes Stanton, Weathers, Cormier, and Castro bad deals. It makes Gonzo and Conine questionable deals, even though they've started off hot.

Cast could definitely step up to the plate a little more. IMO, the judgement is still out on him. He talked big, but we haven't seen squat. Although the main reason the team is worse this year is due to Wayne's mistakes, so I'll withhold judgement on Cast a while longer. But he could definitely do more.

REDREAD
05-09-2007, 10:45 AM
You think so? Maybe Weathers, I guess, but that's a hell of a big IF where Stanton is concerned.

No one is going to touch Stanton right now. He's probably less attractive than Cormier right now, due to his contract and putrid performance.

REDREAD
05-09-2007, 10:50 AM
7 million on relief pitching, 68 million total payroll the bullpen is getting 10% of the total pie. Sounds like short changed to me.

He could've had 3 million more for the pen if he didn't sign Castro and pick up Conine. He could've had another 4 million if he didn't sign Gonzo. He could've made a better deal for LaRue, instead of paying 3 million to get rid of him.
He could've unloaded Milton for more flexiblity.

Wayne had a lot of money to throw around.

nate
05-09-2007, 10:55 AM
Wrong, KoryMac. Plain wrong. The bullpen didn't get short-changed. WK spent a LOT of money (comparitively speaking) on it. Stanton's contract. Cormier's extension. Coffey's extension. Dealing for Saarloos. That's approximately $7 million dollars right there. No one to blame for what we are seeing with the bullpen other than WK. Period.

We can't blame the players?

We can't blame how they're used?

We can't blame the Reds scouting?

If the offense didn't slump when the bullpen was "good", would this thread exist?

If the bullpen didn't slump for the past week when the offense was "good", would this thread exist?

Finally, can't we blame Adam Dunn?

membengal
05-09-2007, 10:58 AM
Blame whomever you want, but I was responding to the notion that somehow this isn't WK's issue. It certainly is. These are his guys, acquired at no small cost.

KoryMac5
05-09-2007, 11:43 AM
He could've had 3 million more for the pen if he didn't sign Castro and pick up Conine. He could've had another 4 million if he didn't sign Gonzo. He could've made a better deal for LaRue, instead of paying 3 million to get rid of him.
He could've unloaded Milton for more flexiblity.

Wayne had a lot of money to throw around.

That money he had to throw around depends on a lot of what if's and maybe's. Finding someone to take Milton and his 9 million dollar contract is wishful thinking. Whatever GM does should be fired immediately. 4 million for Gonzo so far has been an absolute steal, say all you want about GABP enhancing his numbers, he doesn't just go up to the plate hacking. Nobody was knocking Wayne's door down for Larue, he isn't even starting for KC, plus he never gave Larue the terrible contract that tied his hands in the first place. I agree with the point on Castro you could have kept Harris as a utility guy and saved some cash. Conine has done the job when he has been able to play he hasn't played much lately. My point is the owner coming to Wayne and giving him an extra 10 or 12 million to spend on a team is a lot different than the GM having to rob Peter to pay Paul attitude we are getting from the organization.

MartyFan
05-09-2007, 12:01 PM
Oh, if Mr. C were only reading this site...he'd see the genius of the collective minds here and hire a GM from RedsZone...LOL! I love this thread.

More drama, please...:D

Falls City Beer
05-09-2007, 12:03 PM
Oh, if Mr. C were only reading this site...he'd see the genius of the collective minds here and hire a GM from RedsZone...LOL! I love this thread.

More drama, please...:D

I wouldn't want to be a part of a club that would have me as a member. :beerme:

MartyFan
05-09-2007, 12:08 PM
I wouldn't want to be a part of a club that would have me as a member. :beerme:

LOL Me either...I mean, not you, me!

pedro
05-09-2007, 12:24 PM
like we really needed another thread on this topic.

edabbs44
05-09-2007, 12:39 PM
like we really needed another thread on this topic.

This is actually a topic that has not been embraced by the masses yet. I thought it was timely, since everyone has been waiting for Wayne to be here for a year and to give him time. His time is up, IMO.

Though this topic is better than:

Hamilton: ROY?
Has there ever been a ROY and MVP in the same year?
Can Hamilton make the HOF?
Can Hamilton cure AIDS?
Hamilton: Hero to orphans and handicapped babies around the world
Hamilton: Will you marry me?

Falls City Beer
05-09-2007, 12:41 PM
This is actually a topic that has not been embraced by the masses yet. I thought it was timely, since everyone has been waiting for Wayne to be here for a year and to give him time. His time is up, IMO.

Though this topic is better than:

Hamilton: ROY?
Has there ever been a ROY and MVP in the same year?
Can Hamilton make the HOF?
Can Hamilton cure AIDS?
Hamilton: Hero to orphans and handicapped babies around the world
Hamilton: Will you marry me?


I still think the mass of folks on this board are willing to give Wayne at least through next season (2008); in other words, in baseball, the equivalent of a millennium.

westofyou
05-09-2007, 12:49 PM
in other words, in baseball, the equivalent of a millennium.

What planet has baseball time that is so compact?

I'd love to visit it someday.

Will I need sunscreen?

Redlegs
05-09-2007, 12:57 PM
He made a bad trade to Washington. It was a bad trade because he received damaged goods. Otherwise, I find Kearns to be an average, injury plagued, outfielder who has a record of under achieving, and a below average shortstop in Lopez.

He's acquired Josh Hamilton & Brandon Phillips for next to nothing. Those two players are going to be the cornerstone of this club for years, hopefully. The bullpen stinks and I guess you can tag that on Krivsky, but at least he's made moves in an effort to better the club. I like Krivsky and I hope he's here for a while. I have confidence he'll fix the current problems.

edabbs44
05-09-2007, 01:14 PM
I still think the mass of folks on this board are willing to give Wayne at least through next season (2008); in other words, in baseball, the equivalent of a millennium.

One more year of damage.

membengal
05-09-2007, 01:22 PM
This is actually a topic that has not been embraced by the masses yet. I thought it was timely, since everyone has been waiting for Wayne to be here for a year and to give him time. His time is up, IMO.

Though this topic is better than:


Hamilton: Will you marry me?

He told me no.

REDREAD
05-09-2007, 01:43 PM
That money he had to throw around depends on a lot of what if's and maybe's. Finding someone to take Milton and his 9 million dollar contract is wishful thinking.

If Wayne wanted to get rid of Milton as bad as he wanted to get rid of LaRue, he could've gotten it done. Sure, he'd have to eat some salary or take another albotross in return, but he had options. I agree that it's unlikely he'd be able to recover the full 10 million owed Milton this year, but he could've recovered some of it. There was a feeding frenzy this past winter for any pitcher with a pulse.. Milton could've been flipped. Not easy to do, but that's part of Wayne's job.. In contrast, it seems that the Reds are quite happy with having Milton.





Whatever GM does should be fired immediately. 4 million for Gonzo so far has been an absolute steal, say all you want about GABP enhancing his numbers, he doesn't just go up to the plate hacking.


If he can maintain this pace offensively, it's a good signing. I don't think he can though. While he's made some nice plays, he's also made plenty of key errors that cost us games.





Nobody was knocking Wayne's door down for Larue, he isn't even starting for KC, plus he never gave Larue the terrible contract that tied his hands in the first place..

But benching LaRue last year in favor of Ross is what made LaRue's contract an albotross. Dumping LaRue only saved 2 million, so why not just keep him then if no one else wants him. He'd be a much better bench player than anyone else we have.




I agree with the point on Castro you could have kept Harris as a utility guy and saved some cash. Conine has done the job when he has been able to play he hasn't played much lately. My point is the owner coming to Wayne and giving him an extra 10 or 12 million to spend on a team is a lot different than the GM having to rob Peter to pay Paul attitude we are getting from the organization.

Wayne's extra money went to Castro, Conine, Stanton, Weathers, Cormier..
That was free money that could've definitely been used on quality relievers.
I guess the other signings are debatable, but the fact is that a small market team does have to properly assign its priorities. Conine has been good so far, but would that 2 million been better off spent elsewhere? Robbing Peter to pay Paul is a fact of life for every team except the Yanks.

REDREAD
05-09-2007, 01:47 PM
like we really needed another thread on this topic.

Like we really need another person opening a thread they don't care about and saying it's not necessary.. ;)

This club sucks, largely thanks to Wayne. People are going to want to talk about it all year.. Not much else to talk about, although it was nice to see Coffey pitch a scoreless inning last night. It was nice to see Salmon get a shot last night, although I wouldn't have had him face Berkman (I told my wife Berkman was going to get a HR before he did). But at least Salmon is getting a chance and learning. Maybe he'll help us next year.

REDREAD
05-09-2007, 01:50 PM
One more year of damage.


Actually, that is the scary thing. What moves is Wayne going to make in desparation to "win now" in order to keep his job?

DanO picked up Dave Williams in desparation. Bowden resigned Haynes and Graves in desparation to save his job.

I think Homer, Harang, Arroyo and Castro are safe. I don't think anyone else is.
EdE is my pick for the next blockbuster trade to try to win now.

Chip R
05-09-2007, 01:54 PM
You just said it yourself, Wayne built a bull-pen full of middle relievers (at best).



Still, even decent middle relievers should be able to get people out no matter the situation. I don't truly believe that some of these guys' legs turn into jelly once they get put in a closing situation. John Franco started out here as a middle reliever. Norm Charlton was a pretty effective middle reliever for the Reds as was Scott Sullivan. If you had any of those guys and you put them in a situation where they could close a game, they could do it even if they hadn't before.

But the problem isn't the lack of a closer since we never really seem to get to a situation where a closer is necessary. I remember one year back in the mid-late 90s where the Reds were having closer problems. They tried guys like Marcus Moore and Hector Carrasco and finally they turned to Jeff Shaw and the rest was history.

pedro
05-09-2007, 01:56 PM
Like we really need another person opening a thread they don't care about and saying it's not necessary.. ;)

This club sucks, largely thanks to Wayne. People are going to want to talk about it all year.. Not much else to talk about, although it was nice to see Coffey pitch a scoreless inning last night. It was nice to see Salmon get a shot last night, although I wouldn't have had him face Berkman (I told my wife Berkman was going to get a HR before he did). But at least Salmon is getting a chance and learning. Maybe he'll help us next year.

Let's a start a new thread about it everyday. Hurray!

TRF
05-09-2007, 01:58 PM
I've bashed Krivsky as much as anyone on this board. His pen is awful, His bench is meh (oh to have at least made an offer to Craig Wilson) He didn't address the rotation at all KNOWING Milton was a certain disaster, and that Belisle (who I really like) is a big question mark. Lohse was no sure thing either.

That said he has made a number of very astute moves. Hamilton obviously, but AGon is quietly putting up REMARKABLE numbers. defensively the Reds might be one of the better teams up the middle. The team is still an offensive powerhouse.

Krivsky has refined wht was shaping up to be an improved Farm (yes, we can thank DanO for that) I still don't like the Drew Stubbs pick, as the guy has been injured two straight years, but there haven't been any major injuries since DanO took over. The Farm seems to be strictly controlling pitch counts, and It looks like the Reds have a steady stream of good SP prospects ALL THROUGH the organization.

What's sad is some of his more obvious blunders are so difficult to overcome. His choices for HIS bullpen were, well, not good. Cormier and Stanton should never have been signed or kept. Salmon should have been called up last September to at least get his feet wet. Medlock should be in AAA right now. Santos has a very good track record of being a bad pitcher.

There is bullpen help on the horizon though. Coutlangus, Coffey and Salmon need to be used in ways that will allow them to succeed. Cout against LH hitters and weak RH hitters. Salmon needs to work in games with comfortable leads until he gets a little more experience and confidence. Coffey needs rest between appearances. Burton and Pelland might be helpful at some point this year. I have little hope for seeing Bray. Maj (who I think is a bad fit) is starting to pitch better at Louisville.

But there is no hammer at the end, no defined roles and little chance for definitive improvement with the pen as it stands.

And make no mistake, it will be the pen that costs this team a playoff spot.

Falls City Beer
05-09-2007, 01:58 PM
I'd love to visit it someday.



Yeah, you never seem to be in much of a hurry.

"Whenever, dude...whenever; doesn't matter to me.:pimp: "

westofyou
05-09-2007, 02:01 PM
Yeah, you never seem to be in much of a hurry.

"Whenever, dude...whenever; doesn't matter to me.:pimp: "

Guess I just don't care for the "smashmouth" approach to baseball.

Sure the hell doesn't mean I ain't paying attention.

edabbs44
05-09-2007, 02:35 PM
Actually, that is the scary thing. What moves is Wayne going to make in desparation to "win now" in order to keep his job?

DanO picked up Dave Williams in desparation. Bowden resigned Haynes and Graves in desparation to save his job.

I think Homer, Harang, Arroyo and Castro are safe. I don't think anyone else is.
EdE is my pick for the next blockbuster trade to try to win now.

I agree...it's only a matter of time for Edwin.

Hoosier Red
05-09-2007, 02:35 PM
Here's the problem with tagging everything on Wayne.

A relief pitchers effectiveness can vary wildly from year to year, or even month to month. (Example Todd Coffey)

The bullpen was a full fledged disaster last year, and Wayne had two options,
1. Sit on his hands and hope last years disasters pitched better this year.
2. Go out and sign guys(preferrably ones who pitched well last year.) I think it's hard to argue Stanton, Weathers, et al. pitched well enough last year(or at least better than this slop.)


He signed the players and has been burned. Now he can either hope they get better, or bring up new pitchers but beware of Brian Reithing anyone in the minors.

KoryMac5
05-09-2007, 02:56 PM
[QUOTE=REDREAD;1337214]If Wayne wanted to get rid of Milton as bad as he wanted to get rid of LaRue, he could've gotten it done. Sure, he'd have to eat some salary or take another albotross in return, but he had options. I agree that it's unlikely he'd be able to recover the full 10 million owed Milton this year, but he could've recovered some of it. There was a feeding frenzy this past winter for any pitcher with a pulse.. Milton could've been flipped. Not easy to do, but that's part of Wayne's job.. In contrast, it seems that the Reds are quite happy with having Milton.

So your actually telling me there is another GM out there who would take Milton. Ask yourself this question would you take Milton if you were a GM? As for the Reds being happy to have him, their happy his contract is up at the end of the year.


If he can maintain this pace offensively, it's a good signing. I don't think he can though. While he's made some nice plays, he's also made plenty of key errors that cost us games.

He's made 4 errors this year, of those 4 how many were key errors. I think he has saved some runs too with his glove.

But benching LaRue last year in favor of Ross is what made LaRue's contract an albotross. Dumping LaRue only saved 2 million, so why not just keep him then if no one else wants him. He'd be a much better bench player than anyone else we have.

Narron benched Larue not Krivs, Larue was not happy here being in a platoon situation and wasn't hitting. SAving 2 million may not seem like a lot but it helps.


Wayne's extra money went to Castro, Conine, Stanton, Weathers, Cormier..
That was free money that could've definitely been used on quality relievers.
I guess the other signings are debatable, but the fact is that a small market team does have to properly assign its priorities. Conine has been good so far, but would that 2 million been better off spent elsewhere? Robbing Peter to pay Paul is a fact of life for every team except the Yanks.

I agree with you on Castro and Cormier ridiculous contracts that should have not been handed out. Stanton was serviceable last year pitched great in fact with the Giants, I think we all are in agreement he should have only received a 1 yr deal. Weathers is a good guy to have as a middle reliever, who has had a decent year for us. It is true that all teams have to rob Peter to pay Paul the Reds unfortunately have to do it more often than other clubs. We were promised a lot of things when a new park was built. We were promised things when Cast took over, and we were promised things when Krivs was hired. None of which has been seen by any of us. It is an organizational problem.

Aronchis
05-09-2007, 03:37 PM
Or maybe Brian Reith was a really crappy pitcher who never would have amounted to anything anyway?

Ltlabner
05-09-2007, 03:51 PM
If he can maintain this pace offensively, it's a good signing. I don't think he can though. While he's made some nice plays, he's also made plenty of key errors that cost us games.

You were speeking about Gonzo.

I'd be intersted to read this long list of "plenty" of key errors that cost us games.

Hint: Keep in mind, YTD Gonzo has 4 errors total. But don't let facts stop you when you are dead wrong.

edabbs44
05-09-2007, 03:57 PM
You were speeking about Gonzo.

I'd be intersted to read this long list of "plenty" of key errors that cost us games.

Hint: Keep in mind, YTD Gonzo has 4 errors total. But don't let facts stop you when you are dead wrong.

I'm willing to bet that Gonzo slowly regresses back to his mean as far as hitting goes. I'm not celebrating his signing just yet.

Hoosier Red
05-09-2007, 03:59 PM
Or maybe Brian Reith was a really crappy pitcher who never would have amounted to anything anyway?

Fair point, still bringing up young guys may not get any worse results but its far from a guarantee of getting better results.

Ltlabner
05-09-2007, 04:19 PM
I'm willing to bet that Gonzo slowly regresses back to his mean as far as hitting goes. I'm not celebrating his signing just yet.

I agree that his stick is not likely to stay hot for long and that he'll be a streaky sorta guy who has slumps and splurges.

But the main point of my post was asking for this laundry list of games Gonzo has lost us via his errors that REDREAD said were out there. I'm also interested to hear how 4 errors will translate into "plenty of games".

eichstadtreds
05-09-2007, 04:25 PM
How on God's good earth can someone lay the blame of the bullpen on anyone but Krivsky? He's the GM.

He made "the trade"
He signed Weathers
He signed Stanton
He dealt for Cormier and signed him to an extension
He traded for Saarloos
He signed Santos

This is his bullpen. Blame Narron or Pole? For what...not being able to squeeze water from a stone? You can only do so much. At some point, you need someone with talent on the mound.

I'll throw a little blame at Big Bob. He talked a big game about spending money and putting a winner on the field.


Why everyone is against Weathers is beyond me. The guy is a good middle reliever. If he was being used in the seventh or eighth, he would be fine. Krisvy has fixed the starting rotation and all people do is call for his head. An entire baseball organization can not be made over in a year and a half. It takes time. I guess most people here wont allow the man time.

Aronchis
05-09-2007, 04:29 PM
Why everyone is against Weathers is beyond me. The guy is a good middle reliever. If he was being used in the seventh or eighth, he would be fine. Krisvy has fixed the starting rotation and all people do is call for his head. An entire baseball organization can not be made over in a year and a half. It takes time. I guess most people here wont allow the man time.

Krivsky has "fixed" the starting rotation? I have a feeling you won't be saying that by July.

eichstadtreds
05-09-2007, 06:36 PM
Krivsky has "fixed" the starting rotation? I have a feeling you won't be saying that by July.

If you have that thought as to the rotation. Why does the bullpen have to be torn apart. If the starting rotation is going to fall apart, then why can't the bullpen turn around. Lets be honest, none of us thought Coffey would be this bad, he didn't know Majewski, and Bray would be hurt. Baseball is a game of streaks. There is hot streaks and cold streaks. EE is going through a cold streak. Its basball u can't trade everyone or send them to the minors every cold streak. Once desperation sets in is when things really start to go bad. Krisvy isn't a great gm, but he isn't as bad as everyone makes him out to be. He has did a good job. He got us 3 of our starting 8 for nothing, our number three pitcher. He will fix the bullpen give him time.

edabbs44
05-09-2007, 08:09 PM
I agree that his stick is not likely to stay hot for long and that he'll be a streaky sorta guy who has slumps and splurges.

But the main point of my post was asking for this laundry list of games Gonzo has lost us via his errors that REDREAD said were out there. I'm also interested to hear how 4 errors will translate into "plenty of games".

Can't argue with you there.

Eric_Davis
05-09-2007, 08:39 PM
Edabbs44, you will be rewarded....

Work on your house for a couple of weeks, take the kids to Jones' Beach, play a few rounds of golf, have a barbecue with the whole clan, and go attend someone's graduation....maybe even see a play. When you get done doing all of that, the problem of the pen will have been worked out.

REDREAD
05-10-2007, 04:16 PM
So your actually telling me there is another GM out there who would take Milton. Ask yourself this question would you take Milton if you were a GM? As for the Reds being happy to have him, their happy his contract is up at the end of the year.


Yes, if the Reds ate some of his salary, he could've probably been unloaded over this past winter. Look at how scarce pitching is.
The other option would've been to trade for another high priced player whose team viewed him as an albotross.. I suggested Jenkins last year when he was pouting and after he cleared waivers. Or maybe we could find an overpriced reliever that is semi-effective but is way overpaid.

The point is that many bad contracts have been able to be moved over the years. The Rockies unloaded Hampton, and he had many years left on his deal. Milton only had one year left. Atlanta was desparate for a starter this spring. Didn't they invite Redman purely because they had no bodies?

Many people have posted that Milton is ok as a fifth starter, and given the stats of comparable fifth starters. They have a point. The problem with Milton is his salary and the fact that he's old and a waste of innings on a team in transition like the Reds. If Milton was only making 1 million/year, I doubt he would be hated. Note, I'm not saying Milton is good by any means.

Anyhow, the point is that a good GM finds a way to unload contracts.. See Hampton, Kendall, Kevin Brown, etc.. With only one year left on his deal, Milton could've been moved. If Wayne wanted him out of town as bad as he wanted LaRue gone, Milton would've been gone. I think we have to consider that Wayne probably considered Milton ok as a #5 and didn't really want to move him.



He's made 4 errors this year, of those 4 how many were key errors. I think he has saved some runs too with his glove.



At least two of them led to a big inning that cost the Reds the game. I believe he had two of them against Houston that cost us games. If I get time, I'll look through the game log.

In the big picture though, the Reds still have one of the worst defenses in baseball (at least based on errors). They are about to put Freel at 3b.. Wayne has a long way to go on the defense.





Narron benched Larue not Krivs, Larue was not happy here being in a platoon situation and wasn't hitting. SAving 2 million may not seem like a lot but it helps.

Until the savings is blown on Comier and other dreck.
I will concede that it's unclear whether Narron or Wayne benched Larue.
There's a fuzzy line between who decides what.







I agree with you on Castro and Cormier ridiculous contracts that should have not been handed out. Stanton was serviceable last year pitched great in fact with the Giants, .I think we all are in agreement he should have only received a 1 yr deal.

Stanton was a bad risk. We gave him a 2 year deal with a vesting option.
He's old. Washington was a pitchers park. A guy like that can go at any time. I thought it was a horrible deal at the time. Many outsiders pointed to the signing as evidence that the Reds were driving up the market for relief pitching.. in other words, they also thought the Reds extremely overpaid.
IMO, you don't give marginal 40 year old pitchers multiyear deals. If Wayne wanted to give Stanton just one year, I could've lived with that. But now we're married to Stanton for 2 (and maybe 3) years.



Weathers is a good guy to have as a middle reliever, who has had a decent year for us. It is true that all teams have to rob Peter to pay Paul the Reds unfortunately have to do it more often than other clubs. We were promised a lot of things when a new park was built. We were promised things when Cast took over, and we were promised things when Krivs was hired. None of which has been seen by any of us. It is an organizational problem.

We overpaid for Weathers, but I didn't mind his signing as much.
I would've much rather thrown that money at Bradford though, and gotten a good righty reliever to solidify the pen. That's a much better risk.. and they got roughly the same money per year. Bradford is also younger than Weathers (I believe he is only 32).

Wayne is a big risk taker. That's not all bad, but he makes some very bad impulsive decisions without doing risk management.

REDREAD
05-10-2007, 04:19 PM
You were speeking about Gonzo.

I'd be intersted to read this long list of "plenty" of key errors that cost us games.


Not going to look in the game logs.. but at least 2 of those errors led to big innings that cost us the game.

Two losses out of 35 games is plenty, when his entire value is based on his glove.




Hint: Keep in mind, YTD Gonzo has 4 errors total. But don't let facts stop you when you are dead wrong.

Relax, why are you getting so worked up? Are you related to Gonzo or something? :)

BRM
05-10-2007, 05:54 PM
An update from Fay on Narron's future.



I asked Wayne Krivsky today if Jerry Narron's job was safe for the immediate future.

He was a little taken aback by the question. But he said firing Narron is "not even on the radar."

He went on to say:

“We’ve got a lot of good professionals on this team – a lot of guys who have been on winning teams. Everybody in there knows what it takes to win. One of the hardest things to do is try easier. We’re going to come out of this. We’re going to come out of it soon. I believe we've got players in there with a lot who are going to show the people and fans that there better than they’ve show. I'm look forward to seeing that.”

WMR
05-10-2007, 08:40 PM
“We’ve got a lot of good professionals on this team – a lot of guys who have been on winning teams. Everybody in there knows what it takes to win. One of the hardest things to do is try easier. We’re going to come out of this. We’re going to come out of it soon. I believe we've got players in there with a lot who are going to show the people and fans that there better than they’ve show. I'm look forward to seeing that.”

Okay, first off, I hope this is just Fay's inability to transcribe a quote and not Wayne Krivsky speaking like someone for whom english is a second language.

Secondly, what does "one of the hardest things to do is try easier" mean? Does he really believe this bullpen is good?

This quote really irks me b/c it seems like even more sticking your head in the sand.

Falls City Beer
05-10-2007, 08:51 PM
Okay, first off, I hope this is just Fay's inability to transcribe a quote and not Wayne Krivsky speaking like someone for whom english is a second language.

Secondly, what does "one of the hardest things to do is try easier" mean? Does he really believe this bullpen is good?

This quote really irks me b/c it seems like even more sticking your head in the sand.

Eh, it's just confident leader-speak for "no need to panic; people are just pushing too hard."

Not much to read into it, IMO.

Ltlabner
05-10-2007, 09:31 PM
Relax, why are you getting so worked up? Are you related to Gonzo or something? :)

No, just like to point out when folks have their "facts" a little out of sync with reality.

edabbs44
05-10-2007, 09:42 PM
Eh, it's just confident leader-speak for "no need to panic; people are just pushing too hard."

Not much to read into it, IMO.

This is taken from the book of Torre: No one ever struggles or goes into a slump...they "press".

edabbs44
05-10-2007, 09:46 PM
I asked Wayne Krivsky today if Jerry Narron's job was safe for the immediate future.

He was a little taken aback by the question. But he said firing Narron is "not even on the radar."

He went on to say:

“We’ve got a lot of good professionals on this team – a lot of guys who have been on winning teams. Everybody in there knows what it takes to win. One of the hardest things to do is try easier. We’re going to come out of this. We’re going to come out of it soon. I believe we've got players in there with a lot who are going to show the people and fans that there better than they’ve show. I'm look forward to seeing that.”

Krivsky is damn right...the only guy in this pen who has been consistently effective this season has been Weathers, with a touch of Saarloos. Narron hasn't "misused" this bullpen. There is no way not to misuse it, unless Weathers turns into a long reliever.

I still cannot believe that Stanton has only been on the books for a little over a month and has a lot more to go. It seems like he's been here for years.