If someone would've said.....

[peterose00]

There are many things that we all wish were going btter for this club -- and those things seem to make good fodder for discussion around here. There isn't anyone that wouldn't want the bullpen performing better and that includes Wayne Krivsky.

Heck, I really wish that they would've won the division last year because it was there for the taking. But even Cardinal fans realize that last year was an anomaly in so many ways. I guess what I am trying to say is that from a big picture standpoint, I want to see ongoing, logical, sustainable improvement and progress with this club.

And, if someone would've said back in the middle of February 2006, that 15 months into Wayne Krivsky's tenure the Reds would've made the following sustainable improvements, I think that most of us would've said...."I'll take that!!!"

(1) Wayne will build a sustainable starting pitching staff that will lead or be at the top of the NL in ERA.

(2) Wayne will lock up his top two starters in reasonable long term contracts.

(3) Wayne will not cave in to the pressure to rush Homer Bailey -- but rather will allow him to develop at a healthy pace (see Kerry Wood for unhealthy)before bringing him to Cincinnati.

(4) Wayne will remove two of the more ominous contracts that were looming on the horizon (Lopez and Kearns) and replace them with cheaper players who will be much more productive offensively and improve the defense at the same time.

(5) Wayne will move and acquire players so that the overall ranking of the organization's prospects from near dead-last in all of baseball to in or right out of the top ten in all of baseball.

(6) Wayne will acquire 1/2 of what is today's starting lineup for essentially nothing and these players will be extremely inexpensive -- Hamilton, Phillips, Ross, Hatteberg, Conine.

(7) Wayne will be in the financial position of having Griffey's and Milton's contracts off the books at precisely the time he has youngsters coming up to replace them from within our own system (Bailey, Votto, Bruce, Dumatrait, etc.).

(8) Wayne will be taking logical proactive steps to improve the two greatest weaknesses of this club back in February 2006) which is incredibly thin starting pitching and poor defense.

(9) Wayne will have a stated plan, the visable and vocal backing of the owner of the club and be pursuing it agressively.

(10) Wayne will be working to bring pride back to Cincinnatiin both the things he says and the things he does.

I could go on -- but I can look at that list and say "I'll take that" -- and encouragingly, it is starting to take shape.

I own my own business and I can tell you that oftentimes the results only follow after you have been making small sustainable improvements over time. Initially the results may not even be apparent -- but in the long run, they will sustain the business through good times and bad.

I believe Wayne Krivsky is doing a great job -- actually having done more and put more sustainable building blocks in place for this club than what any of us probably would've reasonably expected on the front end back in February 2006.

[Homer Bailey]

Great post.... Give Wayne some time..... Look what he has done in the short time that he has been here.

[reds1869]

Great post. Too often fans overlook the positives. If WK fixes the bullpen we will have a good team.

[eichstadtreds]

I agree 100%. Sports our win now and Krisvky is doing whats best for the long term not short term.

[peterose00]

Great post.... Give Wayne some time..... Look what he has done in the short time that he has been here.

And I don't expect him to wait long before acting on some other areas of improvement within this club.

Won't be good enough for many folks around here -- but I cannot see how anyone can be critical with his overall body of work as it relates to rebuilding an awful mess he had inherited.

[AtomicDumpling]

There are many things that we all wish were going btter for this club -- and those things seem to make good fodder for discussion around here. There isn't anyone that wouldn't want the bullpen performing better and that includes Wayne Krivsky.

Heck, I really wish that they would've won the division last year because it was there for the taking. But even Cardinal fans realize that last year was an anomaly in so many ways. I guess what I am trying to say is that from a big picture standpoint, I want to see ongoing, logical, sustainable improvement and progress with this club.

And, if someone would've said back in the middle of February 2006, that 15 months into Wayne Krivsky's tenure the Reds would've made the following sustainable improvements, I think that most of us would've said...."I'll take that!!!"

(1) Wayne will build a sustainable starting pitching staff that will lead or be at the top of the NL in ERA.

(2) Wayne will lock up his top two starters in reasonable long term contracts.

(3) Wayne will not cave in to the pressure to rush Homer Bailey -- but rather will allow him to develop at a healthy pace (see Kerry Wood for unhealthy)before bringing him to Cincinnati.

(4) Wayne will remove two of the more ominous contracts that were looming on the horizon (Lopez and Kearns) and replace them with cheaper players who will be much more productive offensively and improve the defense at the same time.

(5) Wayne will move and acquire players so that the overall ranking of the organization's prospects from near dead-last in all of baseball to in or right out of the top ten in all of baseball.

(6) Wayne will acquire 1/2 of what is today's starting lineup for essentially nothing and these players will be extremely inexpensive -- Hamilton, Phillips, Ross, Hatteberg, Conine.

(7) Wayne will be in the financial position of having Griffey's and Milton's contracts off the books at precisely the time he has youngsters coming up to replace them from within our own system (Bailey, Votto, Bruce, Dumatrait, etc.).

(8) Wayne will be taking logical proactive steps to improve the two greatest weaknesses of this club back in February 2006) which is incredibly thin starting pitching and poor defense.

(9) Wayne will have a stated plan, the visable and vocal backing of the owner of the club and be pursuing it agressively.

(10) Wayne will be working to bring pride back to Cincinnatiin both the things he says and the things he does.

I could go on -- but I can look at that list and say "I'll take that" -- and encouragingly, it is starting to take shape.

I own my own business and I can tell you that oftentimes the results only follow after you have been making small sustainable improvements over time. Initially the results may not even be apparent -- but in the long run, they will sustain the business through good times and bad.

I believe Wayne Krivsky is doing a great job -- actually having done more and put more sustainable building blocks in place for this club than what any of us probably would've reasonably expected on the front end back in February 2006.

Wayne has done some good things and some really stupid things too. I will address your points from above.

1. Wayne only brought in two of the starting pitchers. The Arroyo trade was his biggest success and he deserves a lot of credit for it, Lohse has done well so far but few expect it to continue considering his long history of ineptitude.

2. This one was easy and obvious and anybody would have done it. But it was still the right thing to do.

3. This is true so far, but I think he is feeling the pressure now. It would still be way to early to bring him up. The jury is still out on this one.

4. This was in fact his biggest mistake. He was humiliated around the league for this one. Nice try of you to attempt to sneak this failure in as a success. LOL Giving good starters away for free is generally not considered a good thing. Kearns and Lopez were still comparatively cheap. He squandered their value.

5. Wayne only gets credit for a very small portion of improving the farm system. He has only been here for one draft. Almost all of the good prospects were here long before Krivsky came around.

6. Hamilton and Phillips were very nice acquisitions. Ross, Hatteberg and Conine are way overpaid and way below average. 2 good and 3 bad here.

7. Wayne is responsible for Griffey and Milton's expiring contracts, nor did he bring in any of the prospects you mentioned. This one counts as good fortune having nothing to do with Krivsky at all.

8. Wayne should get credit for improving the starting pitching. The defense however has not improved at all since he arrived. The Reds have the second-most errors in the league and are giving up unearned runs like they are going out of style. We improved defensively at SS after Wayne overpaid for Gonzalez to fill the gaping hole left by giving away Lopez. The rest of the defense is worse than before.

9. I have not heard any stated plan, nor have I seen a plan put into action. He makes a ton of haphazard transactions. Some work, most don't.

10. Whatever.


The team is in last place. 10 games out of first place already. The bullpen has fallen apart even though he spent half of last year overpaying for bullpen help. The defense is terrible. The offense is not as good as it was before he came. The starting pitching is better. So I guess he is 1 for 4.

I think Wayne Krivsky is on increasingly thin ice. Castellini is not the type of owner to tolerate failure for very long. It is time for Wayne to improve this team or step aside.

[sonny]

Castellini is not the type of owner to tolerate failure for very long. It is time for Wayne to improve this team or step aside.

I don't think Castellini is the type of owner to jump the gun either.

As fans we feel your frustrations Atomic, but lets see this pan out a little before setting fire on someone else's observations.

[EddieMilner]

For a small market team (such as the Reds) you have to give it time to rebuild the team. If the Reds get rid of Wayne before the end of his second season, we are going to have a real tough time getting a quality GM in here to be his successor. I feel that Wayne must get 3 years at a minimum to prove himself as a GM (I would actually think that 4 years is more appropriate).

With the farm system having (what could be) 3 quality starters at AAA, our 1B of the next 7 years at AAA (if he can come out of his slump), a top 10 prospect in all of baseball for RF going to be at AA sometime this year (perfect timing for Griffey's expiring contract), and a group at low A that is just winning about every game they step on the field. In 2009 we could be watching a very young team that has a lot of upside. And still have a packed farm system to boot.

It looks to me that Wayne's plan is to try to put a competitive team on the field without risking a very bright future by giving away our top pro prospects (I didn't consider Deno a great pro prospect). I am okay with that plan. And I will give him a chance to see if the plan actually works.

[hebroncougar]

For a small market team (such as the Reds) you have to give it time to rebuild the team. If the Reds get rid of Wayne before the end of his second season, we are going to have a real tough time getting a quality GM in here to be his successor. I feel that Wayne must get 3 years at a minimum to prove himself as a GM (I would actually think that 4 years is more appropriate).

With the farm system having (what could be) 3 quality starters at AAA, our 1B of the next 7 years at AAA (if he can come out of his slump), a top 10 prospect in all of baseball for RF going to be at AA sometime this year (perfect timing for Griffey's expiring contract), and a group at low A that is just winning about every game they step on the field. In 2009 we could be watching a very young team that has a lot of upside. And still have a packed farm system to boot.

It looks to me that Wayne's plan is to try to put a competitive team on the field without risking a very bright future by giving away our top pro prospects (I didn't consider Deno a great pro prospect). I am okay with that plan. And I will give him a chance to see if the plan actually works.

We are only small market if the owner doesn't ante up. Small markets in baseball are increasingly becoming myths. Cleveland, Detroit, Milwaukee (very recent, not yet sustained), Florida. St. Louis, Minnesota, Oakland, and Houston have all had recent success and are in markets comparable to the Reds. You are only small market if you keep the mentality IMO. See Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Kansas City, and Tampa Bay.

[PuffyPig]

It is time for Wayne to improve this team or step aside.

:bang: :bang: :bang:

[peterose00]

I don't think Castellini is the type of owner to jump the gun either.

As fans we feel your frustrations Atomic, but lets see this pan out a little before setting fire on someone else's observations.

Candidly, Sonny -- I don't think he possesses the ability to NOT do that. Have you ever heard the phrase "my way or the highway" -- that is this Atomic dude.

let's just hope he is too young to be married so this misery isn't being perpetrated on a spouse or children.

[peterose00]

We are only small market if the owner doesn't ante up. Small markets in baseball are increasingly becoming myths. Cleveland, Detroit, Milwaukee (very recent, not yet sustained), Florida. St. Louis, Minnesota, Oakland, and Houston have all had recent success and are in markets comparable to the Reds. You are only small market if you keep the mentality IMO. See Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Kansas City, and Tampa Bay.

I agree with this statement -- and i believe Bob Castellini understands it as well.

But I do believe that ost small market clubs have less margin for error -- which puts a punctuation mark on the fine job Wayne Krivsky is doing building a sustainable winner the right way!!!

[peterose00]

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterose00
There are many things that we all wish were going btter for this club -- and those things seem to make good fodder for discussion around here. There isn't anyone that wouldn't want the bullpen performing better and that includes Wayne Krivsky.

Heck, I really wish that they would've won the division last year because it was there for the taking. But even Cardinal fans realize that last year was an anomaly in so many ways. I guess what I am trying to say is that from a big picture standpoint, I want to see ongoing, logical, sustainable improvement and progress with this club.

And, if someone would've said back in the middle of February 2006, that 15 months into Wayne Krivsky's tenure the Reds would've made the following sustainable improvements, I think that most of us would've said...."I'll take that!!!"

(1) Wayne will build a sustainable starting pitching staff that will lead or be at the top of the NL in ERA.

(2) Wayne will lock up his top two starters in reasonable long term contracts.

(3) Wayne will not cave in to the pressure to rush Homer Bailey -- but rather will allow him to develop at a healthy pace (see Kerry Wood for unhealthy)before bringing him to Cincinnati.

(4) Wayne will remove two of the more ominous contracts that were looming on the horizon (Lopez and Kearns) and replace them with cheaper players who will be much more productive offensively and improve the defense at the same time.

(5) Wayne will move and acquire players so that the overall ranking of the organization's prospects from near dead-last in all of baseball to in or right out of the top ten in all of baseball.

(6) Wayne will acquire 1/2 of what is today's starting lineup for essentially nothing and these players will be extremely inexpensive -- Hamilton, Phillips, Ross, Hatteberg, Conine.

(7) Wayne will be in the financial position of having Griffey's and Milton's contracts off the books at precisely the time he has youngsters coming up to replace them from within our own system (Bailey, Votto, Bruce, Dumatrait, etc.).

(8) Wayne will be taking logical proactive steps to improve the two greatest weaknesses of this club back in February 2006) which is incredibly thin starting pitching and poor defense.

(9) Wayne will have a stated plan, the visable and vocal backing of the owner of the club and be pursuing it agressively.

(10) Wayne will be working to bring pride back to Cincinnatiin both the things he says and the things he does.

I could go on -- but I can look at that list and say "I'll take that" -- and encouragingly, it is starting to take shape.

I own my own business and I can tell you that oftentimes the results only follow after you have been making small sustainable improvements over time. Initially the results may not even be apparent -- but in the long run, they will sustain the business through good times and bad.

I believe Wayne Krivsky is doing a great job -- actually having done more and put more sustainable building blocks in place for this club than what any of us probably would've reasonably expected on the front end back in February 2006.


Wayne has done some good things and some really stupid things too. I will address your points from above.

1. Wayne only brought in two of the starting pitchers. The Arroyo trade was his biggest success and he deserves a lot of credit for it, Lohse has done well so far but few expect it to continue considering his long history of ineptitude. You can't have it both ways -- on one hand you want to say several of these relievers have shown they obviously can't do the job because of what they have done in this short season so far, and then when a guy has done well over that same time period (Lohse) you want to say it can't continue. Isn't it possible that this bad stretch might not continue either?
2. This one was easy and obvious and anybody would have done it. But it was still the right thing to do. Hey, Bowden sure didn't lock up Soriano and then got nothing for the guy. That was obvious too, but sometimes the obvious doesn't happen. lo at how you still can't admit that this deal of Kearns and Lopez OBVIOUSLY helped the Redsby getting AGonz and Hamilton. that's obvious to most people -- except you!!!

3. This is true so far, but I think he is feeling the pressure now. It would still be way to early to bring him up. The jury is still out on this one. It is quite possible that Bailey might be ready now.

4. This was in fact his biggest mistake. He was humiliated around the league for this one. Nice try of you to attempt to sneak this failure in as a success. LOL Giving good starters away for free is generally not considered a good thing. Kearns and Lopez were still comparatively cheap. He squandered their value. A shortstop who can't field his position and has seen a huge slide downward offensively before and since isn't worth as much as you might think he is. A rightfielder who can't keep his weight down and pouts -- while never fulfiling his promise before or after isn't either.
5. Wayne only gets credit for a very small portion of improving the farm system. He has only been here for one draft. Almost all of the good prospects were here long before Krivsky came around. Knowing who to keep and who should go are both parts of the same equation. Like the Thomson kid down at Dayton that he got by dumping Kearns and Lopez.

6. Hamilton and Phillips were very nice acquisitions. Ross, Hatteberg and Conine are way overpaid and way below average. 2 good and 3 bad here. Ross, Hatteberg and Conine are all dramtically below the league average for their positions. Your lack of knowledge is showing (again).
7. Wayne is responsible for Griffey and Milton's expiring contracts, nor did he bring in any of the prospects you mentioned. This one counts as good fortune having nothing to do with Krivsky at all. One of Krivsky's strength is roster management which includes dealing with contracts that are renewing or not. It was brilliant to dump Kearns and FELO right before they got big raises.
8. Wayne should get credit for improving the starting pitching. You got that right!!! The defense however has not improved at all since he arrived. The Reds have the second-most errors in the league and are giving up unearned runs like they are going out of style. 34 game sample size -- are you not venturing out at all this summer because it has been a bit chilly here prior to Memorial Day??? We improved defensively at SS after Wayne overpaid for Gonzalez to fill the gaping hole left by giving away Lopez. The rest of the defense is worse than before. Hamilton is an improvement over Kearns in right or Junior in center. AGonz is infinately better than FELO at SS, Phillips is better than Freel at 2B, Ross is better than LaRue at C.
9. I have not heard any stated plan, nor have I seen a plan put into action. He makes a ton of haphazard transactions. Some work, most don't. Arroyo worked, Ross worked, Phillips worked, Lohse worked, Hamilton worked. AGonz has worked. The starting pitching is the best in the league. The bullpen is still broken.

10. Whatever.
Indeed!!!

The team is in last place. 10 games out of first place already. Even Jim Bowden gave Tony perez 44 games before he unceremoniously dumped the Big Doggie. The Reds have played 34 games -- let's not declare that the sky is falling just yet. The bullpen has fallen apart even though he spent half of last year overpaying for bullpen help. The defense is terrible. The offense is not as good as it was before he came. The starting pitching is better. So I guess he is 1 for 4. Your "sample" size of 34 games to come to those conclusions is amusing.
I think Wayne Krivsky is on increasingly thin ice. Castellini is not the type of owner to tolerate failure for very long. Krivsky is building a sustainable winner with a vision that is consistent with Castellini -- Krivsky is in no danger whatsoever. It is time for Wayne to improve this team or step aside.

My responses are in bold above...

[Rotater Cuff]

We are only small market if the owner doesn't ante up. Small markets in baseball are increasingly becoming myths. Cleveland, Detroit, Milwaukee (very recent, not yet sustained), Florida. St. Louis, Minnesota, Oakland, and Houston have all had recent success and are in markets comparable to the Reds. You are only small market if you keep the mentality IMO. See Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Kansas City, and Tampa Bay.

i hate to burst your bubble, but Houston is not a small market club these days. It has about 5 million people, roughly 2.5 times Cincinnati's Metro Tri State Population.

[Fil3232]

Like the team, Wayne is middling. As M2 said in a different thread, he seems to have an eye for finding talent where no one else is looking, but he also has some characteristics that leave one shaking their head. I agree that Wayne needs more than 2 years to prove himself, but I'm not ready to say he is building a sustainable winner. Heck, his two most productive offensive players (Dunn and Jr.) might be gone by THIS All-Star break. There's still a long, long way to go before the Reds are a sustained winner, and the jury is definately still deliberating on whether Wayne is the man to take them there.

[peterose00]

i hate to burst your bubble, but Houston is not a small market club these days. It has about 5 million people, roughly 2.5 times Cincinnati's Metro Tri State Population.

You are not wrong -- but I've been to Houston. It is so spread out that to cover the entire area that is considered "Houston" is equal to throwing Louisville, Indianapolis, Dayton and Columbus in the Cincinnati area -- and then we are right on a par and more.

And there was a time when Cincinnati consistently drew well from all of those markets -- and we need to get back to that place.

[UK Reds Fan]

1. Agreed.
2. Agreed.
3. Agreed, but who would have put a 19 year old starting in MLB.
4. Quit putting lipstick on a pig. Gonzo makes same as Lopez and Freel makes 1M less than Kearns this year. Lopez had issues on defense, but Kearns was no problem at all defensively. As far as offense...we'll see if Gonzo and Freel outproduce Kearns/Lopez.
5. What specifically are you talking about. All of our prize kids are O'Briens. I would not call Stubbs highly rated. Watson maybe, but the rest have not shown anything so far.
6. Totally agreed.
7. Again, what does this have anything to do with Wayne? Milton/Griff are just motoring along with the same contracts that were hear when Wayne arrived and Bruce, Bailey, Votto, etc...were all players Wayne had nothing to do with being here.
8. I would have to put relief pitching as a greater weakness than defense when Wayne arrived. That is obvious at this point.

9 and 10...Whatever. Baseless words. The same could be said of O'Brien.

Wayne has done some good things and I wonder what kind of shape we'd be in if Phillips had not fallen in our laps as well as Hamilton. But he gets some credit nonetheless..but the bullpen contracts and Castro are/were terrible close to being as bad as Miltonesque/Dave Williams deals.

[dsmith421]

Hilarious that anyone can refer to the Cincinnati Reds and their six straight losing seasons as a "sustainable winner." I guess an empty cup is potentially half full, too.

[hebroncougar]

i hate to burst your bubble, but Houston is not a small market club these days. It has about 5 million people, roughly 2.5 times Cincinnati's Metro Tri State Population.

No bubble burst, http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6182
the Reds are the 13th largest TV market, the 'Stros are the 10th.

[peterose00]

Hilarious that anyone can refer to the Cincinnati Reds and their six straight losing seasons as a "sustainable winner." I guess an empty cup is potentially half full, too.

Keep focused -- think BIG PICTURE....BIG PICTURE...BIG PICTURE....BIG PICTURE....BIG PICTURE

[peterose00]

1. Agreed. Thank you
2. Agreed. Thank you
3. Agreed, but who would have put a 19 year old starting in MLB. Jim Bowden would have...so thank you
4. Quit putting lipstick on a pig. Gonzo makes same as Lopez and Freel makes 1M less than Kearns this year. Lopez had issues on defense, but Kearns was no problem at all defensively. As far as offense...we'll see if Gonzo and Freel outproduce Kearns/Lopez. AGonz and Hamilton are who should be considered here -- we had Freel all along
5. What specifically are you talking about. All of our prize kids are O'Briens. I would not call Stubbs highly rated. Watson maybe, but the rest have notshown anything so far. Daryl Thompson -- the kid who is doing so well at Dayton, was a Krivsky acquisition
6. Totally agreed. Thank you
7. Again, what does this have anything to do with Wayne? Milton/Griff are just motoring along with the same contracts that were hear when Wayne arrived and Bruce, Bailey, Votto, etc...were all players Wayne had nothing to do with being here. Krivsky is respnsible for the contract management NOW -- so thank you
8. I would have to put relief pitching as a greater weakness than defense when Wayne arrived. That is obvious at this point.

9 and 10...Whatever. Baseless words. The same could be said of O'Brien. But the same could not be said of Jim Bowden
Wayne has done some good things and I wonder what kind of shape we'd be in if Phillips had not fallen in our laps as well as Hamilton. But he gets some credit nonetheless..but the bullpen contracts and Castro are/were terrible close to being as bad as Miltonesque/Dave Williams deals.

My responses are in bold above

[peterose00]

No bubble burst, http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6182
the Reds are the 13th largest TV market, the 'Stros are the 10th.

Add Indianapolis, Louisville, Columbus and Dayton to what is defined as the Cincinnaati marketplace -- and Cincinnati might be much larger of a "market" than Houston. Houston does not have that size and number of cities within a similarly close proximity.

[peterose00]

Hilarious that anyone can refer to the Cincinnati Reds and their six straight losing seasons as a "sustainable winner." I guess an empty cup is potentially half full, too.

Hilarious that you confuse the statement that the Reds have had 6 straight losing seasons with Krivsky's and Castellini's work to change that. Wit Bob Castellini at the helm as owner and Wayne Krivsky as GM the glass is most certainly half full again, pal.

[HumnHilghtFreel]

Keep focused -- think BIG PICTURE....BIG PICTURE...BIG PICTURE....BIG PICTURE....BIG PICTURE

Agreed. I think last year's partial success could be seen as a bad thing because it elevated expectations for the present even though the team isn't quite ready to take the big leap. Wayne is building something, and to use a cliche, Rome wasn't built in a day.

[peterose00]

Agreed. I think last year's partial success could be seen as a bad thing because it elevated expectations for the present even though the team isn't quite ready to take the big leap. Wayne is building something, and to use a cliche, Rome wasn't built in a day.

O' how I wish there were more fans really able to see that. You are exactly right.

This club is better than last year's club -- but because the record is poorer right now, so many of them cling to that.

Like I said in another place here, if a seven game losing streak has any silver lining, it might be that the more casual, less knowledgable fans get tired and can't han in with this club -- and just go away.

[DTCromer]

Quit putting lipstick on a pig. Gonzo makes same as Lopez and Freel makes 1M less than Kearns this year. Lopez had issues on defense, but Kearns was no problem at all defensively. As far as offense...we'll see if Gonzo and Freel outproduce Kearns/Lopez.

Many people miss the point of this trade. Our offense hasn't suffered one bit from this trade. Our offense still has it's ups and downs. . . same as last year before the trade, but it's still the same, if not better than it was. YET, WK goes out and gets some bullpen help yet people criticize the trade? I still don't understand it. Our offense is basically putting up the same numbers and is actually better when you compare it to the other teams in the league this year than it was last, yet we received 2 relievers (albeit both injured right now) whom we desperately need.

Am I missing something? Many fans keep overvaluing Lopez because he was an All Star and had 1 career year and Kearns because he was a hometown boy who's just an average OF. I guess everyone will ultimately be split on this trade, but I don't see the logic in how we really "lost" somethign with Lopez/Kearns.

[peterose00]

Many people miss the point of this trade. Our offense hasn't suffered one bit from this trade. Our offense still has it's ups and downs. . . same as last year before the trade, but it's still the same, if not better than it was. YET, WK goes out and gets some bullpen help yet people criticize the trade? I still don't understand it. Our offense is basically putting up the same numbers and is actually better when you compare it to the other teams in the league this year than it was last, yet we received 2 relievers (albeit both injured right now) whom we desperately need.

Am I missing something? Many fans keep overvaluing Lopez because he was an All Star and had 1 career year and Kearns because he was a hometown boy who's just an average OF. I guess everyone will ultimately be split on this trade, but I don't see the logic in how we really "lost" somethign with Lopez/Kearns.

We didn't lose anything -- this deal was a plus in any and every way for the Reds. You are all over that fact, and I appreciate it because evidently the obvious isn't something that a handful of folks can see.

If on the front end of this deal, someone would've said.....

.....look Kearns isn't going to ever realize his potential -- he is going to continue to be a below average offensive player and is never going to have the breakout year everyone expected of him.

.....and Lopez is going to continue to digress as a defensive player to the point that he will not be able to lay SS at the major league level and his offense is going to drop below anything you can imagine -- the ower is going to disappear and his average is going to hover around that of the guy people ike to really knock, Royce Clayton.

....and Wagner is never ever going to be good again.

.....and they all are going to require much more money that they make now (before the trade) so they will be very costly compared to what you can get for better players, who will perform better by any measurement.

If that could have been seen by people, the way it was by Wayne Krivsky, you would probably be happy to just them go and not get anything at all in return.

But instead you got a guy who is performing better at Dayton than Homer Bailey did, you got a bunch of cash (for Harris) and you got a 23 year old left and a guy who at 27 has performed well (86 innings with an era of 3.26).

This deal was a good one, by any measuring stick you want to use. If anything it appreas with hindsight that Krivsky took Bowden to the cleaners.

I have read fans over on the Nats board bemoaning the people they got in this deal -- saying they should have gotten better players for what they gave up. Isn't that interesting!!!!