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HUHUH
05-09-2007, 10:40 PM
I've been watching baseball since the late 60's. Below is the Best Team Of Players I have seen. I haven't run any stats or anything on this. Just gut intuition. Would love to hear your comments.

Disregarding the following players (whom I have seen,
but were past their prime when I started really
following baseball in the mid-late 70's.
Besides, I gotta have a cutoff date somehwere!):
Roberto Clemente, Frank Robinson, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron,
Willie McCovey, Lou Brock, Brooks Robinson , Ernie Banks,
Denny Maclain, Don Drysdale, Sandy Koufax, Juan Marichal,
Fergie Jenkins, Bob Gibson, Carl Yazstremski, Al Kaline, etc.
(that would be a hell of a team, wouldn't it?)


Disregarding performance enhancers Clemens, Pujols, Bonds, etc (and possibly some I've missed below)

Batting Order
1) Rickey Henderson LF
2) Tony Gwynn CF
3) Roberto Alomar 2B
4) George Brett 3B
5) Eddie Murray 1B
6) Vladimir Guererro RF
7) Johnny Bench C
8) Ozzie Smith SS

Starters: Steve Carlton, Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson, Tom Seaver, Pedro Martinez

Bullpen: Jim Palmer, Vida Blue, Ron Guidry, Phil Niekro, Goose Gossage

Bench:
Carlton Fisk, Rod Carew, Joe Morgan, Alex Rodriguez, Paul Molitor,
Ken Griffey Jr., Pete Rose

Remaining 15 players on 40 man roster:
Mariano Rivera, Mario Soto, Gaylord Perry , Tommy John,
Luis Tiant, Catfish Hunter, Curt Schilling, Willie Stargell,
Jim Rice, Mike Schmidt, Ivan Rodriguez, Wade Boggs.
Keith Hernandez, Ichiro Suzuki, Fred Lynn

Comments:

I know there is probably lots of love for Joe Morgan around here, but Alomar was one of the best I've ever seen.

I'm a little uncertain about my outfield. I know Gwynn doesn't belong in center, but him and Ricky at the top of the lineup is too hard to resist.
Any suggestions here?

Mike Schmidt tops most lists at third base, but he was too much of a strikeout/slugger for my taste. George Brett was awesome.

With that starting rotation, you could put the 1983 Reds on the field and they'd still win it all.

The bench is a little shy on outfielders, but Rose and Molitor could play there in a pinch.

Two guys I know will get mentioned by others: Nolan Ryan and Cal Ripken Jr.
Both, in my humble opinion, were very much overrated.

My list might be a little 1970-80's centric. Sorry. I'm biased that players "in the day" were better.

If I put this list together in 1999, Griffey is in centerfield.

Bring it on!

Razor Shines
05-09-2007, 10:50 PM
What difference would 1999 make? Aren't you making for when the guys were in their prime? In their prime Griffey is the best OFer on that team.

rotnoid
05-09-2007, 10:53 PM
Why bat Alomar 3rd and bury Bench in the 7 slot? All those RBI could come in handy with Rickey and Gwynn in front of him.

dougdirt
05-09-2007, 11:00 PM
I understand that defense at SS is key and all..... but there is no way Arod is sitting for Ozzie Smith on any team other than the 'My name is Ozzie Smith' team. Also, Griffey is easily the best outfielder on that team.

Cyclone792
05-09-2007, 11:11 PM
Interesting ... I'll go with this and will check back later to see if I accidentally left out a glaring omission ...

1) 2B Joe Morgan
2) 1B Jeff Bagwell
3) LF Barry Bonds
4) SS Alex Rodriguez
5) CF Ken Griffey, Jr.
6) 3B Mike Schmidt
7) RF Tony Gwynn
8) C Johnny Bench

Rotation: Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, Tom Seaver, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez

Bullpen: Mariano Rivera, Jim Palmer, Tom Glavine, Curt Schilling, Johan Santana, Roy Oswalt

Bench: C Mike Piazza, IF Frank Thomas, IF Craig Biggio, IF Barry Larkin, OF Rickey Henderson, OF Tony Gwynn

Hey what do you know, I did the lefty-righty-lefty-righty-lefty-righty-lefty-righty thing for the entire batting order 1-8. Maybe I'm a little bit like Jerry Narron, except it's easy to get away using these hitters. ;)

Bagwell and Thomas are a wash at first for starting purposes, same with Gwynn and Sheffield in right field for me. I chose Larkin as my backup shortstop over Ripken because I'm a homer.

Also, I believe Santana and Oswalt have been the two best starting pitchers in the under 30 category so I tossed them in the bullpen. Whether they would still remain on this team in another five seasons, however, would hinge on their future performance. If I didn't go with Santana and Oswalt due to not enough career performance, then I'd probably have subbed John Smoltz and Mike Mussina in for the final two bullpen slots.

HUHUH
05-09-2007, 11:13 PM
Why bat Alomar 3rd and bury Bench in the 7 slot? All those RBI could come in handy with Rickey and Gwynn in front of him.

Because Alomar has a much higher BA. It's a fallacy putting sluggers in the 3-4 slot. Who would you rather have batting with two runners (Henderson and Gwynn) on? I'll take my chances with the guy with the higher BA who doesn't strike out as much.

HUHUH
05-09-2007, 11:18 PM
Interesting ... I'll go with this and will check back later to see if I accidentally left out a glaring omission ...

1) 2B Joe Morgan
2) 1B Jeff Bagwell
3) LF Barry Bonds
4) SS Alex Rodriguez
5) CF Ken Griffey, Jr.
6) 3B Mike Schmidt
7) RF Tony Gwynn
8) C Johnny Bench

Rotation: Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, Tom Seaver, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez

Bullpen: Mariano Rivera, Jim Palmer, Tom Glavine, Curt Schilling, Johan Santana, Roy Oswalt

Bench: C Mike Piazza, IF Frank Thomas, IF Craig Biggio, IF Barry Larkin, OF Rickey Henderson, OF Tony Gwynn

Hey what do you know, I did the lefty-righty-lefty-righty-lefty-righty-lefty-righty thing for the entire batting order 1-8. Maybe I'm a little bit like Jerry Narron, except it's easy to get away using these hitters. ;)

Bagwell and Thomas are a wash at first for starting purposes, same with Gwynn and Sheffield in right field for me. I chose Larkin as my backup shortstop over Ripken because I'm a homer.

Also, I believe Santana and Oswalt have been the two best starting pitchers in the under 30 category so I tossed them in the bullpen. Whether they would still remain on this team in another five seasons, however, would hinge on their future performance. If I didn't go with Santana and Oswalt due to not enough career performance, then I'd probably have subbed John Smoltz and Mike Mussina in for the final two bullpen slots.

Definitely! Oswalt and Santana are thoughts for the pitching staff. When its all said and done Santana might be near the top of the list. And I love Oswalt, especially if he's pitching against the Reds. Thomas and Bagwell? Nah.

MWM
05-09-2007, 11:21 PM
I think I disagree way more than I agree with the selections.

ARod is the best player that has come along since 1975, IMO. And Ozzie should never start over Barry Larkin or Derek Jeter. Or probably Miguel Tejada or Cal Ripken or Nomar or maybe even Trammel.

And Joe Morgan every day of the week over Alomar. Not even that close, IMO. And Craig Biggio and Ryne Sanberg both belong ahead of Alomar as well.

And Ken Griffey Junior should be above all 3 of the outfielders you have. The 1990s version of Junior is one of the best all-time, IMO.

And Mariano Rivera should be #1 out of the bullpen and Trevor Hoffman HAS to be on there somewhere.

And I'd put Frank Thomas over Eddie Murray (the 1990s version).

Actually, I'd put Pujols, and I have no idea why he's being lumped in with the steroid users. There's not a shred of even circumstantial evidence.

3B is tougher. I think Scmidt is the best of the bunch all around, but I'd go with Rolen after that (assuming a healthy Rolen)

In the outfield, Manny Ramirex has to be the conversation. I don't think there's a lot of people that realize just how great he really is. I'd also add Albert Belle to the list as a backup.

As bad as Mike Piazza was at catcher, he has to be on the list.

And how did Ichiro make the team?

HUHUH
05-09-2007, 11:22 PM
What difference would 1999 make? Aren't you making for when the guys were in their prime? In their prime Griffey is the best OFer on that team.

Good point. Maybe we move Gwynn to right, put Griff in center, and put Vlad on the bench. I'm OK with that.

MWM
05-09-2007, 11:22 PM
I didn't see Cyclone's before I posted mine, or I would have just agreed with him (except Bagwell).

HUHUH
05-09-2007, 11:35 PM
I think I disagree way more than I agree with the selections.

ARod is the best player that has come along since 1975, IMO. And Ozzie should never start over Barry Larkin or Derek Jeter. Or probably Miguel Tejada or Cal Ripken or Nomar or maybe even Trammel.

And Joe Morgan every day of the week over Alomar. Not even that close, IMO. And Craig Biggio and Ryne Sanberg both belong ahead of Alomar as well.

And Ken Griffey Junior should be above all 3 of the outfielders you have. The 1990s version of Junior is one of the best all-time, IMO.

And Mariano Rivera should be #1 out of the bullpen and Trevor Hoffman HAS to be on there somewhere.

And I'd put Frank Thomas over Eddie Murray (the 1990s version).

Actually, I'd put Pujols, and I have no idea why he's being lumped in with the steroid users. There's not a shred of even circumstantial evidence.

3B is tougher. I think Scmidt is the best of the bunch all around, but I'd go with Rolen after that (assuming a healthy Rolen)

In the outfield, Manny Ramirex has to be the conversation. I don't think there's a lot of people that realize just how great he really is. I'd also add Albert Belle to the list as a backup.

As bad as Mike Piazza was at catcher, he has to be on the list.

And how did Ichiro make the team?

Good points about Manny, Thomas and Piazza. But sorry, I'd have to put them in the PED category. Besides, Eddie Murray at his prime was a gem. Nobody even close.

If you saw Ozzie play in his prime, day in and day out, you wouldn't argue. His glove was worth more than any other of your SS bats could contribute.

Hoffman maybe yes. But again, PED's are an issue.

I agree Rolen is good, but in the same breath as George Brett? No way.

Biggio and Sandburg can't hold a candle to Alomar. I fear your age is showing.

Albert Belle? Puuulease!

Goten
05-10-2007, 12:06 AM
Even if you discount Bonds post 2000, he's still better than Henderson. And Clemens was a beast prior to his old age improvement. They SHOULD be listed.

And Pujols? There's no evidence that he juiced.

MWM
05-10-2007, 01:30 AM
If you saw Ozzie play in his prime, day in and day out, you wouldn't argue. His glove was worth more than any other of your SS bats could contribute.

I saw Ozzie play plenty in his prime. And no one's glove could possibly make up for the difference in offense between him and the others I listed. Barry Larkin and Arod are both damn good defensive players. So it's not like his defense can impact a game that much better. There's a finite number of balls that can be gotten by a SS. Ozzie is the best I've seen defensively, maybe at any position, but it's just not possible for a great defender to make a significnat run difference over a very good one.




How do you figure that?

[quote]I agree Rolen is good, but in the same breath as George Brett? No way.

Best defensive 3B I've ever seen. He belongs in the same breath as Brooks Robinson in defense. Rolen's OPS is about .100 points higher than the average 3B over his career and Brett's was .112. Brett was the better offensive player, but when Rolen is healthy not by much. Rolen is underappreciated in this generation. If given the choice between the two, I'll take Rolen.


Biggio and Sandburg can't hold a candle to Alomar. I fear your age is showing.

Not sure what that means. If you do some research you'll realize just what a great player Biggio was. Alomar was really good, but I'll take Biggio every time.


Albert Belle? Puuulease!

I think because he's such a dislikable character, people forget how great Albert Belle really was. Had he not been sidelined by injuries, he would have been a no brainer. But you didn't define any criteria. Is longevity a factor or are we just talking greatness of the player. Because from 1993 to 1998, Belle might have been as good offensively as anyone. Over that stretch, he had 517 EBH. The next closest guy was Bonds with 445. He was second over that stretch to junior for HRs, and 7th in OPS (and were it not for a blip his first year in Chicago, he'd be third). So it might be a bitof a stretch to include Albert Belle, but not by that much.

George Anderson
05-10-2007, 02:07 AM
I've


Two guys I know will get mentioned by others: Nolan Ryan and Cal Ripken Jr.
Both, in my humble opinion, were very much overrated.


You are going to put Mario Soto, Gaylord Perry, Tommy John, Luis Tiant and Vida Blue on a team before Nolan Ryan??? :rolleyes:

I hope you dont apply for the Reds GM job anytime soon!! :D

GoGoWhiteSox
05-10-2007, 11:36 PM
You are going to put Mario Soto, Gaylord Perry, Tommy John, Luis Tiant and Vida Blue on a team before Nolan Ryan??? :rolleyes:

I was about to say the same thing. The "he was nearly a .500 pitcher during his career" argument doesn't add up either since Phil Niekro is on this particular team.

Ryan was one of the most dominating, and intimidating pitchers of all time, and I find this omission to be the most glaring of them all in this "Best Players since 1975" list.

AtomicDumpling
05-11-2007, 12:57 AM
Interesting and thought-provoking thread.

I agree with most of your choices.

Albert Pujols is not a juicer. Why do you think he is?

I know Barry Bonds was a juicer for awhile, but his pre-juice performance merits inclusion. Incidentally, I think the whole steroids issue is way overblown. Taking them is moronic for certain (and illegal). I just have not seen any convincing evidence that taking steroids increases performance that much. The reason McGwire, Bonds, Canseco etc got so big is due to the 4 hours a day they spent working out in the weightroom rather than steroids.

I would make a couple of changes to your picks.

Put Joe Morgan in over Roberto Alomar, but keep Alomar as a sub.
Put Albert Pujols in over Eddie Murray.
Put A-Rod in over Ozzie Smith.
Put Ken Griffey Jr. in over Rickey Henderson.
Put Mike Schmidt over George Brett, but keep Brett as a sub.
Put Johan Santana in over Gaylord Perry.
Put Barry Bonds in over Tony Gwynn, but keep Gwynn as a sub.

I agree with you that Nolan Ryan was a bit overrated but he was still better than Luis Tiant, Tommy John, Vida Blue, Phil Niekro, Curt Schilling, Ron Guidry, Mario Soto and Gaylord Perry.

Cal Ripken was WAY overrated too.

This was fun. Good thread.

klw
05-11-2007, 10:44 AM
I am curious about the exclusion of suspected "juicers" but the inclusion of Gaylord Perry who thrived on the use of doctored baseballs.

westofyou
05-11-2007, 10:58 AM
3B is tougher. I think Scmidt is the best of the bunch all around, but I'd go with Rolen after that (assuming a healthy Rolen)

For my money it's Brett, while Schmidt was elite all the way, Brett was a ball of fire and possessed the ability to streak and carry a team longer then Rolen could ever hope to. In fact I'd have to say he's one of the best 5 infielders I've had the pleasure of watching in my life, hitting, fielding, baseball smarts, plus 20 years of consistency. His 1980 (and 85 season) was really something in retrospect.


SEASON
1975-2005
3B

OPS YEAR DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 George Brett 1980 .387 1.118 .731
2 Mike Schmidt 1981 .375 1.080 .704
3 Wade Boggs 1987 .290 1.049 .759
4 George Brett 1985 .289 1.022 .733
5 Mike Schmidt 1980 .288 1.004 .716
6 Chipper Jones 1999 .279 1.074 .795
7 Alex Rodriguez 2005 .275 1.031 .756
8 Ken Caminiti 1996 .267 1.028 .761
9 Jim Thome 1996 .266 1.062 .795
10 Gary Sheffield 1992 .259 .965 .706
11 Chipper Jones 2001 .252 1.032 .780
12 Wade Boggs 1988 .250 .965 .715
13 Adrian Beltre 2004 .239 1.017 .778
14 Edgar Martinez 1992 .235 .948 .713
15 Mike Schmidt 1982 .235 .949 .715
16 Albert Pujols 2001 .233 1.013 .780
17 Howard Johnson 1989 .229 .928 .699
18 Scott Rolen 2004 .229 1.007 .778
19 Jim Thome 1995 .224 .996 .771
20 Mike Schmidt 1977 .220 .967 .747

George Anderson
05-11-2007, 11:08 AM
Do you consider Brett a better fielder than Schmidt?? Schmidt won ten Gold Gloves and Brett only one. Writers voting for awards are often flawed, and granted Brett and Schmidt played in different leagues so they never competed for the Gold Glove, but it certainly appears the writers preferred Schmidts defense to Bretts by a wide margin.

membengal
05-11-2007, 11:08 AM
Where's Rolando Roomes on that list?

George Anderson
05-11-2007, 11:09 AM
Do you consider Brett a better fielder than Schmidt?? Schmidt won ten Gold Gloves and Brett only one. Writers voting for awards are often flawed, and granted Brett and Schmidt played in different leagues so they never competed for the Gold Glove, but it certainly appears the writers preferred Schmidts defense to Bretts by a wide margin.[/QUOTE]

dabvu2498
05-11-2007, 11:13 AM
I know he's a jerk, but Jeff Kent deserves consideration at 2B.

westofyou
05-11-2007, 11:18 AM
Do you consider Brett a better fielder than Schmidt?? Schmidt won ten Gold Gloves and Brett only one. Writers voting for awards are often flawed, and granted Brett and Schmidt played in different leagues so they never competed for the Gold Glove, but it certainly appears the writers preferred Schmidts defense to Bretts by a wide margin.
No, but I also don't see 3rd as a position that I would worry about that sort of choice if I had to do it. Schmidt was much more fluid then Brett, Brett more charging bulldog, Schmidt more graceful panther. I likely saw more Schmidt then Brett in my life, but I saw a lot of Brett via the A's in the early 80's, he was just a joy to watch IMO.