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View Full Version : Encarnacion optioned to Louisville



Krusty
05-10-2007, 09:49 AM
Marty B. mentioned it in last night's game and at this point, it might be a good idea especially with his hitting woes affecting his defense. The Reds can use Freel at third and recall either Keppinger or Bellhorn from Louisville to provide infield depth. Also, it will give Hamilton a spot everyday in the lineup.

I have to agree with Marty B. on this one. Encarncion needs to regroup and at this point the Reds can't wait for him to get it together with the situation they are in. Send Encarncion to Louisville for a month and if he gets it together then it would be easy to call him up after Memorial Day.

Do you agree?

lollipopcurve
05-10-2007, 09:54 AM
No -- he's hitting the ball hard now. So he had a bad game in the field -- it happens. Give him regular ABs and let him settle in. Brennaman's not happy unless he's got a whipping boy -- he shouldn't be taken seriously.

44Magnum
05-10-2007, 09:55 AM
I don't know. I just hope he improves. I like the kid, but it's hard to watch him sometimes.

flyer85
05-10-2007, 10:10 AM
While EE has struggled, he is not the main problem. Doesn't mean that they may not do something with him but it will hardly do much to improve anything.

Highlifeman21
05-10-2007, 10:16 AM
Let the kid play through his struggles.

Sitting him, or demoting him won't help him improve.

Repetition will help him improve.

cincrazy
05-10-2007, 10:20 AM
I let him play through it. He's starting to swing the bat,and this year is quickly looking like a lost cause anyways, so we might as well get the young guys as many AB's as possible, as much as it pains me to say this.

Maybe if it's later in the year and we're in the middle of a race, and he's still playing like this, but not at this time of the year when we're clearly a well below average team.

Team Clark
05-10-2007, 10:24 AM
Let the kid play through his struggles.

Sitting him, or demoting him won't help him improve.

Repetition will help him improve.

His footwork yesterday reminded me of AROD's woes last year. Both times he threw the ball away his feet were not set and his weight carried forward. Yikes! :eek: I'm not sure AAA can fix that when you have Bucky Dent at the Big League level.

PuffyPig
05-10-2007, 10:50 AM
Why send him to AAA when he is finally hitting the ball consistently hard?

Hey Meat
05-10-2007, 10:53 AM
Marty B. mentioned it in last night's game and at this point, it might be a good idea especially with his hitting woes affecting his defense. The Reds can use Freel at third and recall either Keppinger or Bellhorn from Louisville to provide infield depth. Also, it will give Hamilton a spot everyday in the lineup.

I have to agree with Marty B. on this one. Encarncion needs to regroup and at this point the Reds can't wait for him to get it together with the situation they are in. Send Encarncion to Louisville for a month and if he gets it together then it would be easy to call him up after Memorial Day.


Do you agree?

I agree, but I don't know how much it will help him. At this point mentally he is shot and being a pouter is not going to make it any easier. Try to trade him for a set up man.

guttle11
05-10-2007, 10:55 AM
Sending Edwin to Louisville is like icing your shoulder when you twist an ankle. It won't make your ankle any better.

coachw513
05-10-2007, 11:15 AM
Actually Marty was reading it from an email...

An email not well thought-out IMHO...though I fear an emotional (as I stated elsewhere) "gotta do something-make an example of my whipping boy" from Narron and management...

He HAS improved on defense (last night notwithstanding), he is hitting the ball with more authority over the last week...

Freel at 3B every day is no better of a defensive move IMHO, and we don't need to expose Hamilton to every LH starter we'll see (not to mention the all LH outfield having to face that LH starter)...

Keep EE out there 6 of 7 days, and give Freel the occasional start...

As has been mentioned, EE is nowhere near the top of our problems...we'd need to go through 7 relief pitchers, a horrible bench, a 5th starter, the hitting issues with a catcher at least before we'd deal with Encarnacion...

chicoruiz
05-10-2007, 11:19 AM
If you're going bad, and act like it bothers you, you're labeled a "pouter".

If you're going bad, and act like it doesn't bother you, you're labeled as having a "lackadaisical attitude".

Basically, if you're going bad, people will pick up whatever stick is handy to beat you with...

KoryMac5
05-10-2007, 11:21 AM
EE has been starting sporadically as of late. The only way to improve somebody's confidence is to stick with him. Narron continues to have a double standard by running the same bullpen guys out there night after night. While all the time saying he has confidence etc... he now needs to show EE the same confidence.

redsfan30
05-10-2007, 11:29 AM
Edwin Encarnacion has been optioned to Louisville and the Reds called up Jeff Keppinger.

.

jesusfan
05-10-2007, 11:30 AM
good move... Edwin may get hungry down there...

redsfan30
05-10-2007, 11:31 AM
It's hard to argue with this move.

Sean_CaseyRules
05-10-2007, 11:32 AM
It's hard to argue with this move.

Exactly what I was thinking, it might send a message to the rest of the team.

flyer85
05-10-2007, 11:35 AM
It's hard to argue with this move.... as long as folks realize it is not going to change the direction the season is heading.

forfreelin04
05-10-2007, 11:38 AM
Reds44 is now packing his bags for Louisville

foltza
05-10-2007, 11:42 AM
sounds good to me. awful hitting so far, and an absolute liability in the field.

BRM
05-10-2007, 11:43 AM
... as long as folks realize it is not going to change the direction the season is heading.

I believe the phrase is "rearranging deck chairs".

guttle11
05-10-2007, 11:47 AM
I believe the phrase is "rearranging deck chairs".

Wrapping your shoulder after you twist an ankle.

Marge'sMullet
05-10-2007, 11:48 AM
Don't know if this is a good move or not, but something needs to be done to shake up things. I do like see Hamilton in there more now.

ghettochild
05-10-2007, 11:54 AM
say hello to juan castro batting fifth!

coachw513
05-10-2007, 12:01 PM
Don't know if this is a good move or not, but something needs to be done to shake up things. I do like see Hamilton in there more now.

EE's leaving doesn't mean more of Hamilton...it means more of Freel, Castro and Keppinger :eek: :bang:

This move is a panic-attack on the part of management...they took the machine guns and mowed down the easiest target without any longrange though process IMHO...

BRM
05-10-2007, 12:07 PM
I hope Keppinger gets the start at 3B (instead of Castro) when Freel gets a day off.

TOBTTReds
05-10-2007, 12:08 PM
Does anyone have a contact number for Reds44? anyone seen him lately? I hope he hasn't dug himself a hole to hide until he gets recalled.

Johnny Footstool
05-10-2007, 12:09 PM
I wish they would have let him play through it. This year's Reds are going nowhere -- might as well take some lumps and let the kid learn.

edabbs44
05-10-2007, 12:14 PM
It's hard to argue with this move.

Exactly right.

edabbs44
05-10-2007, 12:15 PM
Does anyone have a contact number for Reds44? anyone seen him lately? I hope he hasn't dug himself a hole to hide until he gets recalled.

Maybe McBeth will be called up soon to make him feel better.

Matt700wlw
05-10-2007, 12:15 PM
Does anyone have a contact number for Reds44? anyone seen him lately? I hope he hasn't dug himself a hole to hide until he gets recalled.

He's probably at school....unless he's playing hookey :)

redsmetz
05-10-2007, 12:18 PM
EE has been starting sporadically as of late. The only way to improve somebody's confidence is to stick with him. Narron continues to have a double standard by running the same bullpen guys out there night after night. While all the time saying he has confidence etc... he now needs to show EE the same confidence.

Starting sporadically as of late? He's been in 31 of our 34 games and I can only see about three of those where he didn't start. Since the first of the month, he started in six of the nine games, two of which were Roy Oswalt who he has been horrible against. Overall, he's played and played as a starter this season.

HotCorner
05-10-2007, 12:20 PM
At least Edwin will get routine playing time and not jerked around. Jerry shows endless faith in guys like Coffey and Ross yet doesn't do so with Edwin. Hopefully Edwin will catch fire in Louisville.

fewfirstchoice
05-10-2007, 12:24 PM
If Reds management is going to keep making EE there whipping boy I say go ahead and trade him.I say this move makes no sense whats so ever to me.I mean the guy is young and while he has struggled a little let him play through it.This is what most teams would do.If you have a great young talent that is going to be a starter for you in the long run,let him play through his troubles.

Also someone said hes a liability in the field,I have to disagree.While he isnt the best on defense just yet he has improved greatly over his last 2 years.I just cant figure out why you throw a young player under the bus because of one bad game.Oh yeah I forgot Cincy has probably the worst upper management in baseball and has designated EE as the yearly whipping boy.I just say before you guys take all the confidence from this young man trade him to a team that will show EE as a player a little respect as a player and let him work out his problems on the field.Because we all know JN doesnt like EE and isnt going ot give him the chance if he can help it.I hope JN gets fired before EE has lost all confidence and a new manager comes in and gives EE his time shine.

fewfirstchoice
05-10-2007, 12:27 PM
HotCorner great point.I mean how can JN keep running Coffey out there in the 8th with the way hes pitching.Oh I get it hes young and has a lot of potential just like EE.Yet when EE make a error of goes 0-3 JN benches him the next day what a bafoon.I really think JN has mad man love for the running torso that is Coffey.

Griffey4MVP
05-10-2007, 12:32 PM
hows david wright doing over in NY these days? oh wait, they understand that he is young and needs to play through a slump. thats a shame

mound_patrol
05-10-2007, 12:35 PM
Edwin has so much potential, but we will never get to fully see it while he's playing in Cincinnati. He'll be the whipping boy for a few more years and then when hes a free agent he'll be long gone. It's a shame we're running such talent out of Cincy. Good thing we have a lot of stud minor league thirdbaseman

mroby85
05-10-2007, 12:37 PM
my only question is, if they're going to send down slumping players, why is david ross still here?

mound_patrol
05-10-2007, 12:37 PM
and also, it's not like we are in the middle of a division race and he's a major liability. We're competing for last place and aren't going anywhere with this bullpen. Let the kid continue playing.

Dom Heffner
05-10-2007, 12:41 PM
I'm of the personal feeling that Narron has impaired this young man's development to the point that he is going to be a near-miss.

He's 24 years old with 718 total big league at bats and he gets pulled from every other game if he isn't perfect, while Griffey, Freel, and Dunn can do whatever they want on the basepaths or in the field with no similar punishment.

Griffey defines the word loafer to me, but he'll never sit for walking out a ground ball.

RBA
05-10-2007, 12:43 PM
Good move, Edwin needs to work on his pitches. I'm tired of him going out there in the 7th, 8th, and 9th and giving up hit after hit. Is he the big guy who runs out there from the bullpen or the one with the beard?

M2
05-10-2007, 12:44 PM
He's certainly not playing well. When you've got a manager who has made you his personal whipping boy you've got to perform.

If I were the Pirates I'd be offering Salomon Torres for him right now.

berryluther
05-10-2007, 12:49 PM
He hasnt been playing well but IMO this move is done in hopes of him getting hot in AAA and then moving him in a trade.

I heard that Narron demanded this move when he heard Bob Horner was contemplating a return.

WMR
05-10-2007, 12:50 PM
BOOO!!

Just about what I expected though. :(

lollipopcurve
05-10-2007, 12:52 PM
If I were the Pirates I'd be offering Salomon Torres for him right now.

Yep, and if I'm the Angels I'm offering Justin Speier, maybe Shields, and if I'm the Giants I'm offering Benitez and if I'm Philly I'm offering Tom Gordon.

peterose00
05-10-2007, 12:56 PM
EE's leaving doesn't mean more of Hamilton...it means more of Freel, Castro and Keppinger :eek: :bang:

This move is a panic-attack on the part of management...they took the machine guns and mowed down the easiest target without any longrange though process IMHO...

And more of Freel also means more of Hamilton. That isn't hard to understand unless for the ultra-casual Reds fan. Castro's role doesn't change with this -- and Keppinger while getting some playing time is not going to disrupt the balance of this lineup.

When you call it a panic-attack, I guess I am struggling to see why sending down a young outfielder who has struggled at the plate, struggled in the field and at times hasn't even hustled on routine plays is such a panic-attack. It seems to make perfect sense to me. Keeping him aroumnd and doing nothing seems to be the most illogical thing of all.

hebroncougar
05-10-2007, 12:56 PM
I'm of the personal feeling that Narron has impaired this young man's development to the point that he is going to be a near-miss.

He's 24 years old with 718 total big league at bats and he gets pulled from every other game if he isn't perfect, while Griffey, Freel, and Dunn can do whatever they want on the basepaths or in the field with no similar punishment.

Griffey defines the word loafer to me, but he'll never sit for walking out a ground ball.


:thumbup: Amen. If I were Edwin, I'd be looking foward to a trade. The Reds have absolutely no clue how to develop young players. They (like any other players) are going to have good months, and bad months. You don't bench Griffey, or option him out for having a bad month. You don't do that to Dunn, you don't to Ross or Philips either. Hell, Edwin's head was probably spinning from batting 4th one night, to 7th the next, to 3rd the next, to getting benched for losing a pop up, to getting benched for making an error, and on, and on. The Reds have done nothing for his development at the major league level.

peterose00
05-10-2007, 01:00 PM
At least Edwin will get routine playing time and not jerked around. Jerry shows endless faith in guys like Coffey and Ross yet doesn't do so with Edwin. Hopefully Edwin will catch fire in Louisville.

That could just as easily be that Narron's expectations of EE are far more that what he thinks Coffey or Ross can do. If EE gets straightened out and comes back and contributes, then this will be a great move that everyone can see.

Coffey could be the next move as well. Krivsky has said he wanted to see sme of the AAA pitchers throw for himself before he did anything.

Ross, while not hiting -- has been light's out defensively, has handled the starting staff magnificently (which many of them have credited him for) and is actually starting to hit.

EE was regressing badly.

Razor Shines
05-10-2007, 01:00 PM
At least Edwin will get routine playing time and not jerked around. Jerry shows endless faith in guys like Coffey and Ross yet doesn't do so with Edwin. Hopefully Edwin will catch fire in Louisville.

How has Jerry jerked him around? Edwin has played in more games and has more ABs than most guys on the team. How is that not routine playing time? He didn't pull him out of last nights game after he made two costly errors. He moved him down in the order but that hardly constitutes jerking him around, I believe Jerry moved him down in the order because it was best for him and it was working. The last two games EE has sat out of a game were both against Oswalt, again I think Jerry was doing what he thought was best for Edwin. What's he supposed to do about Ross, play Javy every day? Javy is the one who can't play any defense and what happened? Oh, Javy's playing time went way down because his defense is terrible. Coffey is one of the only guys in the pen with real young talent, he has to hope Coffey gets it together.

So he benched him in one game because he didn't run out of the box, so what. If Edwin is struggling because of that incident he has some growing up to do and maybe AAA isn't a bad place to do it. Personally I give EE more credit than that and I don't think that's what the problem is. The problem with his throwing looks to be mechanical, but part of it may be mental.

As far as sending him down. I don't like the move, I understand it, but I don't like it. In the last 10 games he has been hitting the ball better: .286/.342/.429. Those numbers aren't great but it's not terrible. I hope sending him down is just to work on his mechanics a little bit and get some confidence when he's throwing the ball.

peterose00
05-10-2007, 01:03 PM
If Reds management is going to keep making EE there whipping boy I say go ahead and trade him.I say this move makes no sense whats so ever to me.I mean the guy is young and while he has struggled a little let him play through it.This is what most teams would do.If you have a great young talent that is going to be a starter for you in the long run,let him play through his troubles.

Also someone said hes a liability in the field,I have to disagree.While he isnt the best on defense just yet he has improved greatly over his last 2 years.I just cant figure out why you throw a young player under the bus because of one bad game.Oh yeah I forgot Cincy has probably the worst upper management in baseball and has designated EE as the yearly whipping boy.I just say before you guys take all the confidence from this young man trade him to a team that will show EE as a player a little respect as a player and let him work out his problems on the field.Because we all know JN doesnt like EE and isnt going ot give him the chance if he can help it.I hope JN gets fired before EE has lost all confidence and a new manager comes in and gives EE his time shine.

EE has been given more opportunity to improve that any young player I can think of -- over decades. His defense is not better, his hitting is regressing (pulling off every ball trying to pull it out of the park) and he hasn't been a poster child for husting. Now maybe none of those are reasons for you to make a change. I am glad that Narron and Krivsky didn't see it the same way you do.

BRM
05-10-2007, 01:04 PM
As far as sending him down. I don't like the move, I understand it, but I don't like it.

This sums up my feelings on the move as well.

NorrisHopper30
05-10-2007, 01:04 PM
when will we get rid of castro

peterose00
05-10-2007, 01:04 PM
I'm of the personal feeling that Narron has impaired this young man's development to the point that he is going to be a near-miss.

He's 24 years old with 718 total big league at bats and he gets pulled from every other game if he isn't perfect, while Griffey, Freel, and Dunn can do whatever they want on the basepaths or in the field with no similar punishment.

Griffey defines the word loafer to me, but he'll never sit for walking out a ground ball.

Neither would EE if he has accomplsihed all century perfromance on the field.

hebroncougar
05-10-2007, 01:06 PM
EE has been given more opportunity to improve that any young player I can think of -- over decades. His defense is not better, his hitting is regressing (pulling off every ball trying to pull it out of the park) and he hasn't been a poster child for husting. Now maybe none of those are reasons for you to make a change. I am glad that Narron and Krivsky didn't see it the same way you do.

You talking about Dunn, Griffey, Philips, Ross, Valentin? Oh no, that's only Edwin. All of the Reds are dead pull hitters (or ones that have been here for more than a year). Driving the ball the other way obviously is not part of the plan.

hebroncougar
05-10-2007, 01:07 PM
when will we get rid of castro


He's a vet of enormous value.

peterose00
05-10-2007, 01:08 PM
How has Jerry jerked him around? Edwin has played in more games and has more ABs than most guys on the team. How is that not routine playing time? He didn't pull him out of last nights game after he made two costly errors. He moved him down in the order but that hardly constitutes jerking him around, I believe Jerry moved him down in the order because it was best for him and it was working. The last two games EE has sat out of a game were both against Oswalt, again I think Jerry was doing what he thought was best for Edwin. What's he supposed to do about Ross, play Javy every day? Javy is the one who can't play any defense and what happened? Oh, Javy's playing time went way down because his defense is terrible. Coffey is one of the only guys in the pen with real young talent, he has to hope Coffey gets it together.

So he benched him in one game because he didn't run out of the box, so what. If Edwin is struggling because of that incident he has some growing up to do and maybe AAA isn't a bad place to do it. Personally I give EE more credit than that and I don't think that's what the problem is. The problem with his throwing looks to be mechanical, but part of it may be mental.

As far as sending him down. I don't like the move, I understand it, but I don't like it. In the last 10 games he has been hitting the ball better: .286/.342/.429. Those numbers aren't great but it's not terrible. I hope sending him down is just to work on his mechanics a little bit and get some confidence when he's throwing the ball.

This franchise is in the middle of the longest string of losing seasons in any of our lifetimes -- going back to the mid-fifties. Yet there are those who argue that we should just keep running the same old tired people out there who have not performed. I agree with you, EE has been givben more chances to succeed than any Reds youngster in recent memory and the fact is that after a very long period of time -- he isn't too much better than the day he was brought up to replace a productive and defensively strong Joe Randa two years ago.

hebroncougar
05-10-2007, 01:08 PM
Neither would EE if he has accomplsihed all century perfromance on the field.

And that has what to do with someone perceiving him loafing?? You are excusing it because he was on the all century team?? I wonder what your namesake would think of that......

NorrisHopper30
05-10-2007, 01:09 PM
He's a vet of enormous value.

He's 3 for 29

peterose00
05-10-2007, 01:10 PM
You talking about Dunn, Griffey, Philips, Ross, Valentin? Oh no, that's only Edwin. All of the Reds are dead pull hitters (or ones that have been here for more than a year). Driving the ball the other way obviously is not part of the plan.

EE has not made adjustments.

Junior has made adjustments. Dunn is at least trying to make adjustments.

Valentin is the backup catcher.

Phillips and Ross are contributing in ways that are in addition to any offense they are bringing to the tabel.

EE was bringing nothing to the table -- struggling bat getting only worse, piss poor defense and a bad attitude as it relates to hustling.

BRM
05-10-2007, 01:14 PM
This move doesn't do much to make the Reds a better team right now. Hopefully it gets EE back on track which will make the Reds a better team in the future though.

Razor Shines
05-10-2007, 01:14 PM
If Reds management is going to keep making EE there whipping boy I say go ahead and trade him.I say this move makes no sense whats so ever to me.I mean the guy is young and while he has struggled a little let him play through it.This is what most teams would do.If you have a great young talent that is going to be a starter for you in the long run,let him play through his troubles.

Also someone said hes a liability in the field,I have to disagree.While he isnt the best on defense just yet he has improved greatly over his last 2 years.I just cant figure out why you throw a young player under the bus because of one bad game.Oh yeah I forgot Cincy has probably the worst upper management in baseball and has designated EE as the yearly whipping boy.I just say before you guys take all the confidence from this young man trade him to a team that will show EE as a player a little respect as a player and let him work out his problems on the field.Because we all know JN doesnt like EE and isnt going ot give him the chance if he can help it.I hope JN gets fired before EE has lost all confidence and a new manager comes in and gives EE his time shine.

Again how has Jerry not given him time to shine? How is optioning a player to Louisville throwing him under the bus? This JN doesn't like EE stuff is getting old and doesn't make sense.

What happened last year? EE had some time off after the injury it was said that he worked very intensively on his defensive mechanics, he came back and played great defense for the rest of the season. You think they might be hoping for the same result this year? You may not like their methods, but they're just trying to do what they think is best for Edwin.

Razor Shines
05-10-2007, 01:17 PM
EE has not made adjustments.

Junior has made adjustments. Dunn is at least trying to make adjustments.

Valentin is the backup catcher.

Phillips and Ross are contributing in ways that are in addition to any offense they are bringing to the tabel.

EE was bringing nothing to the table -- struggling bat getting only worse, piss poor defense and a bad attitude as it relates to hustling.

This is a stupid comment. You have no idea what EE's attitude is. I don't like the "Narron hates EE" comments. And I don't like the "EE has a bad attitude" comments. None of us have any idea what we're talking about in either case.

Aceking
05-10-2007, 01:19 PM
I was at the game last night. EE looked frustrated... and completely at a loss for what to do. His confidence is shot.

Nobody has said this is going to fix our season... but it's probably the best thing to help EE get on his feet again.

Razor Shines
05-10-2007, 01:20 PM
This move doesn't do much to make the Reds a better team right now. Hopefully it gets EE back on track which will make the Reds a better team in the future though.

I agree. For this year right now, it makes the Reds worse. There's no way getting around that. Edwin has been hitting the ball of late and I think he was going to continue to come around, no one that is going to fill his position can hit the way he has the ability to hit.

So like you said, hopefully he'll go down get things together and come back throwing well.

Dom Heffner
05-10-2007, 01:21 PM
Neither would EE if he has accomplsihed all century perfromance on the field.

The point is you don't get to loaf out a ground ball today because you were good in the 90s.


EE has been given more opportunity to improve that any young player I can think of -- over decades.

So no young player in decades has 718 at bats in 217 games over close to two full seasons?

coachw513
05-10-2007, 01:23 PM
Good move, Edwin needs to work on his pitches. I'm tired of him going out there in the 7th, 8th, and 9th and giving up hit after hit. Is he the big guy who runs out there from the bullpen or the one with the beard?

remember, he's the guy on the DL rehabbing his tommy-john surgery if MLB is correct :D

wonderful point in the midst of sarcasm...

Stingray
05-10-2007, 01:24 PM
If handled properly, going to AAA for a short time could benefit both for EE and the Reds. The problem is Narron(& K?) seem more intent on showing up EE than they do in helping him. Don't wait for him to make a critical error and option him the next day. Talk privately to him, tell him he's pressing and he's going to be optioned so he can relax and get back in his groove and you expect him to be back soon.. Tell him he going to start a few more games so the move doesn't have a punitive feel to it. Then option him.

In any business, if you expect respect from the people working for you, you have to show them respect.

I hate the arrrogant wayNarron treats the young guys.

HotCorner
05-10-2007, 01:26 PM
I was at the game last night. EE looked frustrated... and completely at a loss for what to do. His confidence is shot.

Nobody has said this is going to fix our season... but it's probably the best thing to help EE get on his feet again.

I agree his confidence is shot. He's always looking over his shoulder worry if he goes hitless or commits an error that he will end up on the bench.

bounty37h
05-10-2007, 01:26 PM
EE's leaving doesn't mean more of Hamilton...it means more of Freel, Castro and Keppinger :eek: :bang:

This move is a panic-attack on the part of management...they took the machine guns and mowed down the easiest target without any longrange though process IMHO...

With EE's arm, there is no easiest target!!!!! I hope he gets it worked out, but as I stated last season, and was blasted for, i dont think he has the tools to be a major league third baseman.

Razor Shines
05-10-2007, 01:32 PM
The point is you don't get to loaf out a ground ball today because you were good in the 90s.



So no young player in decades has 718 at bats in 217 games over close to two full seasons?

No the point is that a guy who's had many serious leg injuries in the last 6 years can jog out a ground ball to the right side today.

bounty37h
05-10-2007, 01:33 PM
:thumbup: Amen. If I were Edwin, I'd be looking foward to a trade. The Reds have absolutely no clue how to develop young players. They (like any other players) are going to have good months, and bad months. You don't bench Griffey, or option him out for having a bad month. You don't do that to Dunn, you don't to Ross or Philips either. Hell, Edwin's head was probably spinning from batting 4th one night, to 7th the next, to 3rd the next, to getting benched for losing a pop up, to getting benched for making an error, and on, and on. The Reds have done nothing for his development at the major league level.

How is this the Reds fault, do they make him airmail every throw he makes? I like him, wnat him to do well, btu he isnt doing it. he led in errors last year, is well on his way agian this year. At what point does he take some responsibility and learn to throw a damn baseball, how do you make it to the majors and expect to stay when you cant even throw????

coachw513
05-10-2007, 01:34 PM
And more of Freel also means more of Hamilton. That isn't hard to understand unless for the ultra-casual Reds fan. Castro's role doesn't change with this -- and Keppinger while getting some playing time is not going to disrupt the balance of this lineup.

When you call it a panic-attack, I guess I am struggling to see why sending down a young outfielder who has struggled at the plate, struggled in the field and at times hasn't even hustled on routine plays is such a panic-attack. It seems to make perfect sense to me. Keeping him aroumnd and doing nothing seems to be the most illogical thing of all.

I'll politely disagree...

I'll count to 10 while reading the inference of my ignorance and my obviously casual interest in the Reds...

I might point out that he's not an outfielder...I might also point out that it's statistically hard-pressed for someone to prove over a large SS that the offense won't be affected (particularly against LH starters) with all 3 LH outfielders every game and that the combo of Freel, Keppinger and Castro will even duplicate EE's projections (not potential)...in addition, we've already seen that Freel is the "odd man out" in the OF as long as Hamilton was producing and Griffey healthy...

I'd also suggest politely that if the Reds stellar bullpen had closed out even 4 of the multitude of gas-jobs they've performed and we had a record of let's say 18-16, that this move would not have been made...

But clearly, I'm just a casual fan and unable to grasp the genius of this move :bang:

big boy
05-10-2007, 01:34 PM
hows david wright doing over in NY these days? oh wait, they understand that he is young and needs to play through a slump. thats a shame

When EE drives in 100+, hits .300, and has an ops over .900 for 2 straight years, he'll be able to have a slump also.

jimbo
05-10-2007, 01:40 PM
I agree his confidence is shot. He's always looking over his shoulder worry if he goes hitless or commits an error that he will end up on the bench.

This kind of talk is just over the top. It is almost comical how the Narron haters will try and find fault in everything he does, even when there is none to be found.

Yeah, all of Edwin's problems are Narron's fault. Classic. Why stop there. Let's blame Narron for world hunger and Hurricane Katrina also?

Ludwig Reds Fan
05-10-2007, 01:41 PM
If you're going bad, and act like it bothers you, you're labeled a "pouter".

If you're going bad, and act like it doesn't bother you, you're labeled as having a "lackadaisical attitude".

Basically, if you're going bad, people will pick up whatever stick is handy to beat you with...



Heheh..yep. :) And you forgot one.

If you're going bad and you are being paid millions of dollars...either learn what it is that you do, or we'll find somebody else that will.

I am of the "put Edwin on notice, shape up or ship out" camp. It really has been painful to watch him lately.

HokieRed
05-10-2007, 01:43 PM
Sorry to see this move, as I think it represents the Reds' needing to find somebody to blame and fixing on Edwin. I suspect it signals the end of his time with the Reds organization unless we see a completely new management team by the end of the season. The longer range problem is whether EE--whom I like as a player very much--really can play 3B. This question is still unanswered, and Krivsky has made it clear he considers at least average defense a non-negotiable at every position. He dealt Lopez; refused to try to switch Phillips from a position where he's clearly very good to one where he might just be average; he added Gonzalez; he finessed the move of Griffey to right and strengthened CF; he's signed guys who are pretty solid at 1B. If EE can become at least a league average defender at 3rd, he can be a very valuable player. If he has to be a corner outfielder, obviously he's of less value.

BRM
05-10-2007, 01:43 PM
Heheh..yep. :) And you forgot one.

If you're going bad and you are being paid millions of dollars...either learn what it is that you do, or we'll find somebody else that will.

I am of the "put Edwin on notice, shape up or ship out" camp. It really has been painful to watch him lately.

Well, Edwin isn't being paid millions of dollars this year but I get your point.

Why not put all of the poor performers in that camp?

bounty37h
05-10-2007, 01:44 PM
I agree his confidence is shot. He's always looking over his shoulder worry if he goes hitless or commits an error that he will end up on the bench.

And it should be that way, you make it out like its his first error. When it gets to the consitant number of errors, simple errors, yes, somehting needs to be done. Have you ever played sports in your life? I would bet, no matter what level, if you go out as the starter, dont hit, and are a liability in the field, you would be benched. Why does everybody have to make this such a negative, conspiracy theory against EDE??? If he goes down to L-ville, gets his hitting back (which he has a talent for) and maybe learns that there are 2 sides of the game and learns to play defense, and comes back up, will you still be crying that he got sent down? isnt that what AAA is there for, to work on your game so you can make and hlpe the big league squad?????

RedFanAlways1966
05-10-2007, 01:47 PM
I hope EE benefits from it. Not having the best of times in 34 games. I don't think there is an agenda against EE, nor do I think Juan Castro has anything to do with it (of course he doesn't).

I look forward to the day that EE is called back up to the big club.

Dom Heffner
05-10-2007, 02:14 PM
No the point is that a guy who's had many serious leg injuries in the last 6 years can jog out a ground ball to the right side today.


I see. Different rules for different players. Maybe Encarnacion should just have a leg injury, then he can loaf all day.

Here's the thing: If 6 leg injuries mean you can't run out a ground ball, then you don't need to be in the outfield, you need to be in the American League.

Kingspoint
05-10-2007, 02:16 PM
"Managers don't have as much leverage as they used to have. We can't really be the boss. If I say to a veteran player, 'If you don't perform, you may be sent back to the minors,' they look at me and say, 'Who are you kidding? I'm not going anyplace. I've already had three years in the major leagues and you can't send me back to the minor leagues without my OK.'"

---Frank Robinson

AmarilloRed
05-10-2007, 02:20 PM
If Keppinger can give us Encarcions production and improved defense, lets do it. Otherwise,lets keep Encarcion in the lineup.

bounty37h
05-10-2007, 02:28 PM
well then, by that standard, 8 errors means you dont need to be at third base, means you should be in the minors....

Ltlabner
05-10-2007, 02:29 PM
Redszone hystaria. Catch it!

AmarilloRed
05-10-2007, 02:37 PM
I am at a loss at this news. He got off to a slow start hitting, and his defense hasnt been stellar; but he really has the potential to be a star for a long time. I hope being sent down helps him instead of hurting him, but I fear the worst. Its possible Keppinger will use this opportunity to make us forget about Encarcion, but he probably wont do as well. Lets all hope Encarcion turns things around in AAA and comes back a better player.

berryluther
05-10-2007, 02:46 PM
I sure hope he isnt the Dominican equivalent of Brandon Larson

Razor Shines
05-10-2007, 02:51 PM
I see. Different rules for different players. Maybe Encarnacion should just have a leg injury, then he can loaf all day.

Here's the thing: If 6 leg injuries mean you can't run out a ground ball, then you don't need to be in the outfield, you need to be in the American League.
You mean maybe he should have a leg injury and become a first ballot hall of famer? "Loaf all day"? You haven't been watching the games very closely if you think that Jr. loafs all day.

It doesn't mean he can't run out a ground ball but it's not a bad idea to play it safe on balls that are going to be outs 99% of the time no matter how hard he runs. And yes there are different rules for different players. I don't know about you but I like seeing Jr. in the lineup and I'd like for him to be in the lineup for the whole season. I don't know if you've noticed but he's hitting the ball half way decently.

Jefferson24
05-10-2007, 03:07 PM
Too bad they didn't option the blow pen along with him.

Dom Heffner
05-10-2007, 03:10 PM
The hall of famer argument doesn't mean anything in 2007. He hasn't had a hall of fame career in Cincy, that's for sure. I'm not giving him a pass becuase he was good when he played for Seattle.

He'll wear a Mariner's hat for his plaque; that's where his best playing days were.

Griffey hits the ball when he plays, no doubt. I do like seeing him, there's no argument there.

But if you are going to say that he shouldn't run becuase 99% of the time a ground ball to the right is an out, then how can you make anybody run, when playable ground balls are outs 99% of the time?

The idea is that you run these out because there is a chance- ever so slight- that you can beat it out, not that you have a good chance.

For me, if you are going to say that the odds determine when you run, then everybody should just sit in the dugout, because baseball is a game of failure to begin with.

dsmith421
05-10-2007, 03:41 PM
well then, by that standard, 8 errors means you dont need to be at third base, means you should be in the minors....

Good thing the Reds didn't feel that way about an error-prone shortstop back in the 70s. Or the Phillies about an even more error-prone third basemen around the same time.

oneupper
05-10-2007, 03:47 PM
Narron's dealings with young players like EE and Deno just prove that the sooner the REDS get rid of him (Narron), the better.

An organization that is counting on promoting the likes of Votto, Bailey, Bruce, etc. can ill-afford a manager who cannot connect with or gain the trust of young players.

Aside from what the move itself might mean, the signal it sends is not good.

EE's performance hasn't been good. But he's been demoted (in the lineup), benched and now singled out and sent down.

Ltlabner
05-10-2007, 03:53 PM
An organization that is counting on promoting the likes of Votto, Bailey, Bruce, etc. can ill-afford a manager who cannot connect with or gain the trust of young players.

Aside from what the move itself might mean, the signal it sends is not good.

EE's performance hasn't been good. But he's been demoted (in the lineup), benched and now singled out and sent down.

Huh?

I'd say Coffey, Coutlangous, Salman, Burton, Phillips and Hamilton would argue with you about not being able to connect or trust Narron.

I could give a crap if it's "mean" (I don't think it is, anyway). EE is 23. Time to be a man and face the music. You aren't hitting, you continue to make the same mistake over and over and you head apprently isn't in the game. If EE crumbles because the big bad Narron was mean to him, well, then hitting a ball ain't his problem.

Yes, EE's the only one who's been sent down but are you suggesting that a Manager should treat every single issue the exact same no matter what? That he should have no descression for how to deal with players (this one needs a kick in the pants, that one needs a pep talk, this one just needs more playing time)? Every player that struggles out of the gate should be treated exactly the same?

redsfan30
05-10-2007, 03:56 PM
Huh?

I'd say Coffey, Coutlangous, Burton, Phillips and Hamilton would argue with you about not being able to connect or trust Narron.

I could give a crap if it's "mean" (I don't think it is, anyway). EE is 23. Time to be a man and face the music. You aren't hitting, you continue to make the same mistake over and over and you head apprently isn't in the game. If EE crumbles because the big bad Narron was mean to him, well, then hitting a ball ain't his problem.

Yes, EE's the only one who's been sent down but are you suggesting that a Manager should treat every single issue the exact same no matter what? That he should have no descression for how to deal with players (this one needs a kick in the pants, that one needs a pep talk, this one just needs more playing time)? Every player that struggles out of the gate should be treated exactly the same?

:clap:

bounty37h
05-10-2007, 04:02 PM
Good thing the Reds didn't feel that way about an error-prone shortstop back in the 70s. Or the Phillies about an even more error-prone third basemen around the same time.

Was Concepcion this bad in his 3'rd season with the Reds? Did he have as many errors, simple fundamental errors that should have been corrected by now? Was Schmitty as inefective with the bat while he was trying to find his way around a glove?

AtomicDumpling
05-10-2007, 04:30 PM
Quote from RotoWorld:

Reds optioned third baseman Edwin Encarnacion to Triple-A Louisville.
And the Reds wonder why they're consistently a second-division team. Encarnacion is one of the team's best players, and the club is going to need him to bounce back if it has any chance of contending. Instead, it looks like he might be on the Austin Kearns path out of town. There should be several teams looking to find out just how much bullpen help it would take to acquire the 24-year-old.

WMR
05-10-2007, 04:37 PM
Quote from RotoWorld:

Reds optioned third baseman Edwin Encarnacion to Triple-A Louisville.
And the Reds wonder why they're consistently a second-division team. Encarnacion is one of the team's best players, and the club is going to need him to bounce back if it has any chance of contending. Instead, it looks like he might be on the Austin Kearns path out of town. There should be several teams looking to find out just how much bullpen help it would take to acquire the 24-year-old.

:bang:

Razor Shines
05-10-2007, 04:41 PM
EE's performance hasn't been good. But he's been demoted (in the lineup), benched and now singled out and sent down.


He was benched for ONE game. He's played in more games than almost anybody else. He was moved down in the order, yes. You think that was a demotion? Didn't he start to hit better further down in the order? You don't think that was done to take pressure off of him, to give him a chance to succeed?

But I'm sure you're right, Jerry hates Edwin, he's convinced the entire Reds FO to hate Edwin also. And their master plan is to ruin his career.

Ltlabner
05-10-2007, 04:42 PM
He was benched for ONE game. He's played in more games than almost anybody else. He was moved down in the order, yes. You think that was a demotion? Didn't he start to hit better further down in the order? You don't think that was done to take pressure off of him, to give him a chance to succeed?

But I'm sure you're right, Jerry hates Edwin, he's convinced the entire Reds FO to hate Edwin also. And their master plan is to ruin his career.

By the way, how exactly is EE being singled out for bad perfromance?

Cormier might tend to dissagree with you there.

Razor Shines
05-10-2007, 04:43 PM
By the way, how exactly is EE being singled out for bad perfromance?

Cormier might tend to dissagree with you there.

I never said that he was.

Kc61
05-10-2007, 04:45 PM
Was Concepcion this bad in his 3'rd season with the Reds? Did he have as many errors, simple fundamental errors that should have been corrected by now? Was Schmitty as inefective with the bat while he was trying to find his way around a glove?

Actually, Concepcion had throwing problems at the beginning, as I recall. But he gradually got better and, one day, I remember thinking that the problem was gone.

And Schmidt did have problems hitting for quite awhile. He had a ton of strikeouts and low batting averages early in his career, although I remember him always being a good fielder.

I think EE still has a chance to be good. What's hurt him most is that his bat has been asleep for quite some time, since late August of last year. I think the Reds would live with the throws if the guy was hitting.

bounty37h
05-10-2007, 04:47 PM
[QUOTE=coachw513;1338454]Actually Marty was reading it from an email...

An email not well thought-out IMHO...though I fear an emotional (as I stated elsewhere) "gotta do something-make an example of my whipping boy" from Narron and management...

He HAS improved on defense (last night notwithstanding), he is hitting the ball with more authority over the last week...

Uhm, how has he imnproved? Six errors so far this season, which is 1/5th done. He had 25 last season. At this rate, he will have 30 on this year, dont see the improvement......

Kingspoint
05-10-2007, 04:48 PM
I disagree with Rotoworld that there's anything wrong with sending down EE. If we quit acting like soccer-moms with these men who play baseball and quit worrying about their feelings and be more concerned about finding out what they're made of, then we might end up with players who care more about the game and their own results.

I do like this angle that Rotoworld spun on the Harris trade:

"The Reds will get a chance to see if they downgraded when they gave away Brendan Harris in the offseason and then traded for Keppinger. Keppinger did hit .411 in 14 games for Louisville after returning from a broken finger, but he doesn't do much besides hit for average and he lacks versatility. He'll be a backup at second and third."

howyoufreelin
05-10-2007, 04:48 PM
This is such a stupid move. The Reds aren't doing anything this season with this bullpen. Anyone who thinks otherwise is probably not very smart. Encarnacion is a very good young player who had a good first full year last season, but has struggled for the first month. Big deal. You let him play through it, you don't destroy his confidence by sending him back down to AAA. He's improved his defense a great deal since last season also, in my opinion. And anywaysm It's not like we're playing for a pennant. We're playing for last place. Edwin Encarnacion should sue the Cincinnati Reds and Jerry Narron for the impairment they have put on his development. EdE has so much potential, and we're letting it go to waste.

Kingspoint
05-10-2007, 04:51 PM
Brooks Robinson was up at the Majors and in the Minors in each of his first 4 years. He stayed in the Majors his 5th year, then was sent back down again for about 40 games his 6th, before he finally stayed for good.

Edwin will learn, if anything, to play better, try harder, and hustle more. All of those are under his control, no one else's.

I'm glad he got sent down.

Ltlabner
05-10-2007, 04:54 PM
I never said that he was.

I know you wern't. That, in combination with your post, was aimed at the "Oh my God, Narron hates EE" crowd.

Razor Shines
05-10-2007, 04:55 PM
I know you wern't. That, in combination with your post, was aimed at the "Oh my God, Narron hates EE" crowd.

Oh I gotcha.

jimbo
05-10-2007, 05:03 PM
I could give a crap if it's "mean" (I don't think it is, anyway). EE is 23. Time to be a man and face the music. You aren't hitting, you continue to make the same mistake over and over and you head apprently isn't in the game. If EE crumbles because the big bad Narron was mean to him, well, then hitting a ball ain't his problem.


Exactly. I've been saying this since early last season. I don't understand the idea that EE has to be coddled, babied, and comforted or his career will be ruined. If his mentality is that frail, then he has bigger problems and will struggle becoming a consistant big league player.

peterose00
05-10-2007, 05:11 PM
This is such a stupid move. The Reds aren't doing anything this season with this bullpen. Anyone who thinks otherwise is probably not very smart. Encarnacion is a very good young player who had a good first full year last season, but has struggled for the first month. Big deal. You let him play through it, you don't destroy his confidence by sending him back down to AAA. He's improved his defense a great deal since last season also, in my opinion. And anywaysm It's not like we're playing for a pennant. We're playing for last place. Edwin Encarnacion should sue the Cincinnati Reds and Jerry Narron for the impairment they have put on his development. EdE has so much potential, and we're letting it go to waste.

This talk is getting really silly. If this wasn't so funny it would be stupid. Why all the whinig over this move?

Encarnacion is not the "victim" here. He played himself directly to Louisville.

I don't disagree that EE was supposed to be a big part of this offense. But let's be honest -- he is hitting .218; his OBP is .301. This slugger who we need in there so bad has a slugging percentage of .287.

It isn't that Narron or Krivsky doesn't like him.

There isn't anyone on the roster who has more errors that EE at third.

Defensively, he was given nearly the entire last half of 2005 to improve and get batter -- it didn't happen. He didn't get better in 2006 and it appears he hasn't gotten better in 2007.

Now if he isn't going to be able to field his position at the major league level and also isn't hitting -- when do you say "enough is enough"???

I can't recall a young player who has been given more chances. Do yu just keep giving him more and more and more chances without seeing any improvement?

EE has played the equivalent of about a full season at third and has made 41 errors. No club trying to get better would stand for that -- and I am glad the reds aren't either.

durl
05-10-2007, 05:28 PM
Good thing the Reds didn't feel that way about an error-prone shortstop back in the 70s. Or the Phillies about an even more error-prone third basemen around the same time.

If I recall correctly (I did some research on this some time ago), Concepcion didn't commit an abnormal number of errors for his day. Fielding percentages over the years have increased. What cut it in the early 70s won't necessarily cut it today.

As an example, in 1973, the Reds were the TOP fielding team in baseball with an FP of .982. In 2006, that wouldn't even put them in the top 20.

dsmith421
05-10-2007, 06:26 PM
Was Concepcion this bad in his 3'rd season with the Reds? Did he have as many errors, simple fundamental errors that should have been corrected by now? Was Schmitty as inefective with the bat while he was trying to find his way around a glove?

Concepcion had 19 errors his third season in the bigs.

In Schmidt's age-23 season he hit .196 with 138 Ks and 18 errors. The next year he completely exploded.

Encarnacion isn't going to be a talent like those players. But the Reds, as a franchise with little juice in the free agent market, has to be willing to absorb some lumps with talented youngsters.

Personally, I'd rather watch guys like Edwin and Phillips screw up while displaying potential then watch a perfectly professional club of Aurilias and Randas chug their way to 75 efficient, fundamental wins a year.

dsmith421
05-10-2007, 06:27 PM
As an example, in 1973, the Reds were the TOP fielding team in baseball with an FP of .982. In 2006, that wouldn't even put them in the top 20.

I wonder what's changed...

*Less emphasis on speed?
*Better groundskeeping techniques?
*More lenient scorekeeping?

thatcoolguy_22
05-10-2007, 07:22 PM
Concepcion had 19 errors his third season in the bigs.

In Schmidt's age-23 season he hit .196 with 138 Ks and 18 errors. The next year he completely exploded.

Encarnacion isn't going to be a talent like those players. But the Reds, as a franchise with little juice in the free agent market, has to be willing to absorb some lumps with talented youngsters.

Personally, I'd rather watch guys like Edwin and Phillips screw up while displaying potential then watch a perfectly professional club of Aurilias and Randas chug their way to 75 efficient, fundamental wins a year.


:beerme:

Blue
05-10-2007, 08:19 PM
He just made an error in the first inning in Louisville. I hope he figures in out and gets back to his old self.

fewfirstchoice
05-10-2007, 08:31 PM
peterose00 is that you Jerry Narron,its got to be the way your ripping EE on here.The Reds brass have never shown any confidence in EE.If he makes 1 error or goes 0-3 in a game he gets benched.He is totally put on a different pedistol than the others players.HE bats 3rd then 7th then 4th how can a young guy get focused being srewed around with like that.EE has the talent and when given the oppurtunity to shine he does.Narron just never has given him a chance to shine on a regular basis.

Also your argument doesnt hold water.If it did Mr. Narron as this is who you have to be your man crush Todd Coffey would have been sent down weeks ago.I just dont understand how they give up on EE and keep running Coffey out there in the 8th inning in tie games.The REds brass are just a joke plain and simple.

mth123
05-10-2007, 08:46 PM
I'm of the personal feeling that Narron has impaired this young man's development to the point that he is going to be a near-miss.

He's 24 years old with 718 total big league at bats and he gets pulled from every other game if he isn't perfect, while Griffey, Freel, and Dunn can do whatever they want on the basepaths or in the field with no similar punishment.

Griffey defines the word loafer to me, but he'll never sit for walking out a ground ball.

A lot of truth in this post in regards to EE. He gets benched and made an example of for doing what most of the others do. I think EdE's struggles are partly a result of a management that has mishandled him. I really think they like him and want him to develop, but it seems the more "lessons" they try to teach him the more backwards he goes.

I personally think he'll get past it and if he doesn't he may not be cut out to do what we all want him to, but the handling has delayed the process and not helped it as intended IMO.

Razor Shines
05-10-2007, 09:14 PM
peterose00 is that you Jerry Narron,its got to be the way your ripping EE on here.The Reds brass have never shown any confidence in EE.If he makes 1 error or goes 0-3 in a game he gets benched.He is totally put on a different pedistol than the others players.HE bats 3rd then 7th then 4th how can a young guy get focused being srewed around with like that.EE has the talent and when given the oppurtunity to shine he does.Narron just never has given him a chance to shine on a regular basis.
.
How has Narron not given him a chance to shine on a regular basis? That's exactly what he gave EE. He hasn't gotten benched for making 1 error or going 0-3, you're just wrong. Again he's played more than just about everybody else on this team.

You're going to talk about the batting order in respect only to Edwin? Which guys on this team have not been moved all over the batting order? That's not singling Edwin out, and he's been batting 7th fairly consistently of late. Probably a move to take pressure off of him. But go ahead and twist things around to fit your version of how you think things have happened.

Will
05-10-2007, 10:03 PM
EE has shown absolutly no plate discipline and that has resulted in his demotion to the minors. If you hit the club can handle the growing pains on defense. As it is he isn't playing well in the field or at the plate. While he had a good season last year, pitchers get a book on a hitter's weaknesses for their second season in the bigs. At that point the hitter has to make the adjustments or they are done. High fast balls and low and away have beaten EE to death. The hitting coach and manager can only tell a player so many times what they are doing wrong and then it's up to the player to put the coaching to use. While Hamilton and EE may be seeing near the same no # of pitches per AB, they are seeing different types of pitches based on each team's scouting report on what a hitter will cut at. Hamilton will have to make his adjustments in the second half of the season after all the teams have seen him. But his approach at the plate will probably allow him to continue be very successfull in my opinion.

jimbo
05-10-2007, 10:06 PM
The Reds brass have never shown any confidence in EE.

EE has the 5th most at-bats on the Reds this season. Yet you say they have never shown confidence in him? What a joke. :bang:

reds44
05-10-2007, 10:10 PM
EE has the 5th most at-bats on the Reds this season. Yet you say they have never shown confidence in him? What a joke. :bang:
Eliminate 1st baseman.
Eliminate catchers.
Eliminate Griffey who basically missed 2 weeks.
Eliminate Juan Castro.
Eliminate Norris Hopper.

There's 7 guys right there who didn't have had a prayer of getting more ABs then idiot.

jimbo
05-10-2007, 10:22 PM
Eliminate 1st baseman.
Eliminate catchers.
Eliminate Griffey who basically missed 2 weeks.
Eliminate Juan Castro.
Eliminate Norris Hopper.

There's 7 guys right there who didn't have had a prayer of getting more ABs then idiot.

Just wondering who you are calling an idiot?

captainmorgan07
05-10-2007, 11:10 PM
as much as i love EE he's a liablity at the hot corner as we saw yesterday it cost us the game and his patience and confidence at the plate is shot give him couple weeks in AAA to get those back to where it was last year he'll be fine no need to overract

foxfire123
05-10-2007, 11:23 PM
Long overdue IMO. I've never been impressed with the boy, my impression of him is that he's lazy and a spoiled brat. He's proved his laziness to me by, to use this for one example, not running out pop ups--it's rare, but you never know, they may drop it and hussle can turn it into a hit... And the spoiled brat part comes in from the obvious fact that he won't work on his defense issues without being forced to.

No, it will probably not turn the season around, but it's either farewell to bad rubbish or a wake up call.

Foxfire123

oneupper
05-10-2007, 11:30 PM
Huh?

I'd say Coffey, Coutlangous, Salman, Burton, Phillips and Hamilton would argue with you about not being able to connect or trust Narron.

I could give a crap if it's "mean" (I don't think it is, anyway). EE is 23. Time to be a man and face the music. You aren't hitting, you continue to make the same mistake over and over and you head apprently isn't in the game. If EE crumbles because the big bad Narron was mean to him, well, then hitting a ball ain't his problem.

Yes, EE's the only one who's been sent down but are you suggesting that a Manager should treat every single issue the exact same no matter what? That he should have no descression for how to deal with players (this one needs a kick in the pants, that one needs a pep talk, this one just needs more playing time)? Every player that struggles out of the gate should be treated exactly the same?


There is a constant in the young players that "stuck" with Narron: they started out on fire. Phillips was player of the week when he was put in the lineup. Coffey was lights out to start last year, and we know Hamilton's story. It didn't matter that they tapered off later...

On the other hand, we had Deno. He was brought up first when Griffey went down with an injury, so he could watch Freel play CF. Then he was given the RF job when Kearns was traded only to lose it when he misplayed a fly ball after less than a week of started. Deno wasn't exactly on fire with the bat...so he was relegated until Griffey went down again. In September, Deno showed he could play.

Narron doesn't know talent. He only knows stats...but he doesn't know enough about stats to recognize when a sample is small. So he's extrapolating numbers and performances. Gonzo hits a couple of HR...all of sudden he's a #5 hitter. Conine has a good start and he becomes our cleanup guy.
Coffey (or anyone) has a couple of good outings...and Narron expects that every day (and uses him every day, too!).


So what's going to happen if the REDS decide to give Bailey a starting slot in the bigs next year? If he messes up his first two starts we send him back down?

What about Bruce? Let's say he wins a starting job in 2009? How long do we stick with him if he's not fantastic? 50 AB? 100 AB?

EE OPS .831 last year. He can hit. He won the 3B job. Narron put him there to start 2007. You don't give up after 100 AB.

What about other teams?

Alex Gordon is hitting .173...The Royals aren't sending him down
Kouszmanoff is hitting .115 The Padres are still playing him
Jason Kendall....184
Jeremy Dye .200
Brando Inge....211
Richie Sexson .184
Adam LaRoche .168
Scott Rolen .200

Point is...slumps happen. Sometimes they happen at the start of the season. Things even out if the talent is there.

All these guys will probably have their usual numbers by the end of the season most likely. So would EE...if Narron doesn't panic.

Post too long...sorry.

Ron Madden
05-10-2007, 11:46 PM
Good post Oneupper, I"m in full agreement. :thumbup:

Blue
05-10-2007, 11:58 PM
Long overdue IMO. I've never been impressed with the boy, my impression of him is that he's lazy and a spoiled brat. He's proved his laziness to me by, to use this for one example, not running out pop ups--it's rare, but you never know, they may drop it and hussle can turn it into a hit... And the spoiled brat part comes in from the obvious fact that he won't work on his defense issues without being forced to.

No, it will probably not turn the season around, but it's either farewell to bad rubbish or a wake up call.

Foxfire123

Wow. You did two things here:

1) You claim the kid is lazy, because he doesn't run out popups.
2) You claim the kid is a spoiled brat.

I've never noticed Edwin not running out plays, save the one time when he was benched after thinking he fouled the ball out of play.

As for the second part, unless you have inside information, I have no idea how you know that. You claim that you base that belief on the fact that he doesn't work on defense unless he's forced to. Again, no idea how you know that. You can go to C. Trent Rosecrans blog and check the archives from last season, and you'll find it full of references to a sweat soaked Edwin Encarnacion leaving the field after some intense one-on-one fielding practice during the dog days of summer. The guy is from the Dominican Republic, and I would guess that he was closer to living in poverty than being spoiled.

When Narron yanked him from the game, he took responsibility and said he understood why he was benched. He's busted his rear end in the field ever since.

I don't subscribe to the idea that Narron and Krivsky have held this kid back. He needs to find his groove again and come back up when he's ready to contribute with the bat, which I don't think will be long. But to call the kid names and to say he doesn't work hard is just ridiculous.

jmac
05-10-2007, 11:59 PM
EE has not been moved around any more than anyone else.
I hope he rebounds and puts up the numbers we "think" he will.
However some on here act like EE is the next Mike Schmidt or something. I think he can do a good job but I dont know if he is the "cant miss" guy alot think he is.
People also say for the reds to move him to first to take the pressure off his defense.Well if he was hitting well...maybe.But right now the reds are worried about his fielding and his hitting.
One more thing.JN gets alot of stuff like "play EE at first cause the reds arent going anywhere".Well.... I am sure JN is playing to win for his job so he is gonna put out the guys he thinks gives him the best shot.
Alot of times fans are talking of next year but the mngr is playing to keep his job.Not saying we agree with every thing JN does....but I just cant see him doing something like putting EE at first and setting Hatt when he knows Mr C is wanting wins with the current roster.

Ron Madden
05-11-2007, 12:06 AM
The problem is Narron can't tell the difference between the players that give him the best chance of winning from the ones that dont.

jmac
05-11-2007, 12:17 AM
The problem is Narron can't tell the difference between the players that give him the best chance of winning from the ones that dont.
In most circumstances...true !

Redhook
05-11-2007, 12:36 AM
Long overdue IMO. I've never been impressed with the boy, my impression of him is that he's lazy and a spoiled brat. He's proved his laziness to me by, to use this for one example, not running out pop ups--it's rare, but you never know, they may drop it and hussle can turn it into a hit... And the spoiled brat part comes in from the obvious fact that he won't work on his defense issues without being forced to.

Foxfire123

Horrific post.

EE's lazy because he didn't run out a popup that he thought was a foul ball? Did you watch that at-bat? I did. He had no clue where the ball was and I actually thought it was a foul ball too. EE didn't know where the ball was until it was a few feet from the 2nd basemen's glove. Narroon sat him because, for some reason, he doesn't like him and was looking for any excuse to get him off the field.

Are you in the Reds clubhouse? Do you watch them practice? I didn't think so. So don't disrespect EE by saying he didn't work on his defense unless he was forced to. Ridiculous.

jimbo
05-11-2007, 12:51 AM
Are you in the Reds clubhouse? Do you watch them practice? I didn't think so. So don't disrespect EE by saying he didn't work on his defense unless he was forced to. Ridiculous.

You can also turn that around and say that because you also do not watch them practice and are not in the clubhouse, that you have no idea if Narron likes EE or not. That argument is as baseless as the one you are targeting.

peterose00
05-11-2007, 01:16 AM
Horrific post.

EE's lazy because he didn't run out a popup that he thought was a foul ball? Did you watch that at-bat? I did. He had no clue where the ball was and I actually thought it was a foul ball too. EE didn't know where the ball was until it was a few feet from the 2nd basemen's glove. Narroon sat him because, for some reason, he doesn't like him and was looking for any excuse to get him off the field.

Are you in the Reds clubhouse? Do you watch them practice? I didn't think so. So don't disrespect EE by saying he didn't work on his defense unless he was forced to. Ridiculous.

Hopefully, most folks learn in little league that you run a ball out -- even if you don't know where it is -- especially if you don't know where it is. Not knowing where the ball was is certainly no excuse for not running a ball out.

Now add to that the fact that EE was hitting .218 with a slugging percentage of .278 and had made more errors than any other player on the team and I think it isn't hard to figure out why he played his way to Louisville.

peterose00
05-11-2007, 01:20 AM
Horrific post.

Are you in the Reds clubhouse? Do you watch them practice? I didn't think so. So don't disrespect EE by saying he didn't work on his defense unless he was forced to. Ridiculous.

I think Jimbo's reply was an excellent one to your comment -- but let me add another thought as well.

Let's assume EE does not work hard or practice as miuch as he should -- then the fact that he isn't getting any better is alarming.

But let's then consider that EE works very hard at improving and is practicing more than anyone else on the team by a large margin -- he still isn't improving so that too is alarming.

He needs to work out his problems in Louisville -- and has certainly played his way there.

Redhook
05-11-2007, 08:15 AM
Let me state that I don't have a problem with EE being sent to Louisville. He's slumping badly and needs to fix his defensive problems.

What I do have a problem with is someone calling him lazy and a spoiled brat. Last year it was stated many times by many reporters, as Blue pointed out above, that EE was working hard on his defense. He does work hard at it. Starting this year out, it was much better until the last week or so. He has seemed to have lost his confidence. I think his offensive struggles are affecting his defense. He does need to learn how to separate the two.

I hope EE will be back up here sometime in the next month because he is very important to this team in the year's ahead.

Jefferson24
05-11-2007, 11:25 AM
Has there ever been any consideration to try EE at 1st base? I didn't go through all the posts to see if this has been discussed yet so forgive me if it has. I like his bat in the line up and there would be far less errors at first. I could see him being more valuable than Conine in a platoon situation with Hatteberg.

bounty37h
05-11-2007, 11:49 AM
[QUOTE=fewfirstchoice;1339872]peterose00 is that you Jerry Narron,its got to be the way your ripping EE on here.The Reds brass have never shown any confidence in EE.

Fewfirstchoice, is that you EdE? How have they not shown any confidence in him, they let Aurilia go and gave him the starting third base job, cant show much more of a we're in your corner confidence shot then that. he hasnt taken advantage of the shots and confidence the Reds have gave him. Time to grow upo and be a man, if you get a job, and dont perform, do you expect your employer to cuddle you and hold your hand as so many of you think needs to be done with Ed?

hebroncougar
05-11-2007, 11:54 AM
Hopefully, most folks learn in little league that you run a ball out -- even if you don't know where it is -- especially if you don't know where it is. Not knowing where the ball was is certainly no excuse for not running a ball out.

Now add to that the fact that EE was hitting .218 with a slugging percentage of .278 and had made more errors than any other player on the team and I think it isn't hard to figure out why he played his way to Louisville.

You must not have been watching much MLB the last few years. Guys that hustle are the exception rather than the rule anymore.

peterose00
05-11-2007, 01:34 PM
You must not have been watching much MLB the last few years. Guys that hustle are the exception rather than the rule anymore.

Really -- yu are delusional

Chip R
05-11-2007, 01:51 PM
Hopefully, most folks learn in little league that you run a ball out -- even if you don't know where it is -- especially if you don't know where it is. Not knowing where the ball was is certainly no excuse for not running a ball out.

No it's not. But it was an isolated incident. If this was another incident in a long line of incidents than benching him probably would have been a good move. But by all accounts he's a very hard worker - especially with defense. If he wasn't trying out there that'd be a cause for concern. But he made one mistake and now people think he's lazy.

foxfire123
05-12-2007, 07:39 AM
He's busted his rear end in the field ever since.



Error after error after error is not "busting his rear end". Sorry. You have your opinionof the kid, and I have mine.