PDA

View Full Version : Narron is not the guy to build a Reds winner



Stingray
05-10-2007, 02:16 PM
Iíve disliked many things about Narron as the Reds manager, but Iíve never before posted on the subject. The way Narron (& WK?) have handled EE is the last straw for me. I can see logic in optioning EE(& Coffey) to give them a chance to relax and get back in the groove. To do so in a way that embarrasses the player is classless and needlessly harmís the clubsí relationship with that player and possibly the players development.

In addition, as Iíve posted many times, I feel the Reds need to build with youth even if it means losing a few more games this year(does it matter if the Reds are 15 games behind instead of 10 at seasons end?). Narron is the wrong guy for that approach for at least two reasons. First, it seems to be against his nature to play a young guy if he can find an aging veteran who ďplays the game the right wayĒ. Secondly, I think Narron is trying to save his job and losing any extra games this year to benefit the future(when heíll be gone)is no way to do that.

Hire someone with the understanding heíll have at least a three year window to build a serious contender - although I think it can be done sooner.

George Anderson
05-10-2007, 03:10 PM
Iíve disliked many things about Narron as the Reds manager, but Iíve never before posted on the subject. The way Narron (& WK?) have handled EE is the last straw for me. I can see logic in optioning EE(& Coffey) to give them a chance to relax and get back in the groove. To do so in a way that embarrasses the player is classless and needlessly harmís the clubsí relationship with that player and possibly the players development.



I dont get it?? How has Narron or WK embarrassed EE and Coffey?? Being sent to the minors happens to players every day in MLB, why is this so bad?

redsfan30
05-10-2007, 03:23 PM
To do so in a way that embarrasses the player is classless and needlessly harm’s the clubs’ relationship with that player and possibly the players development.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

This might be the dumbest thing I've ever read on these boards. There isn't a damn person who's "embarrassed" Edwin Encarnacion or Todd Coffey but themselves by playing like total crap since Opening Day.

I swear, some people get on Jerry Narron for the sky not being blue enough.

Nothing personal, Stingray.....but come on now.

Blue
05-10-2007, 03:25 PM
I can see logic in optioning EE(& Coffey) to give them a chance to relax and get back in the groove. To do so in a way that embarrasses the player is classless and needlessly harm’s the clubs’ relationship with that player and possibly the players development.

I don't get it either. You didn't offer any reasons for why this demotion is any different than one to give EE "a chance to relax and get back in the groove." Why assume that this was "classless" and done to "embarrass the player"?

durl
05-10-2007, 05:15 PM
I also see nothing about this that was "classless."

This shouldn't "harm" EE's relationship with the team. Remember that he's only in his 2nd full season in the big leagues; we're not talking about a perennial All-Star. His numbers simply don't give him the right to be upset at the move.

TeamBoone
05-10-2007, 05:19 PM
IMHO, JN does not build the team... WK does.

Jerry must utilize said team in a way that gives it the best possible chance of winning. Does he do that? Sometimes... sometimes not. Sometimes it's his fault, especially when it comes to the BP, but not always.

ghettochild
05-10-2007, 07:39 PM
i don't like JN as much as the next guy, but i really don't like our replacement.

Stingray
05-10-2007, 07:50 PM
I dont get it?? How has Narron or WK embarrassed EE and Coffey?? Being sent to the minors happens to players every day in MLB, why is this so bad?


He's treated Coffey with restraint. In EE's case he sits him after he doesn't run out a ball EE clearly thought he'd fouled back then options him the day after he makes a couple of errors even though he's been starting to hit the ball hard recently. Fielding wise, I'm sure he's got a much better fielding percentage at third this year than Free and much better range in the field than Freel or Castro.

In my mind EE's clearly being scape goated by Narron. Yes, WK also has some responsibility in this area.

PuffyPig
05-10-2007, 08:03 PM
I agree that Narron is not the guy to build a winner.

Which, of course, is why he isn't the GM.

cincrazy
05-10-2007, 08:06 PM
I have to agree with the scape goating comment. I don't feel that it's been handled in a classless manner, but there are plenty of player's struggling so far this season, many with name recognition. True, Edwin doesn't have that reputation yet, but I don't really feel like him going to Louisville will change anything. The same move was made with Austin Kearns a few seasons ago, but really, how much of an impact did it have? Kearns is currently on another team.

I like Encarnacion, and it's important to remember how young the guy still is. He's been one of MANY problems on this team, and if he gets sent down, they should also be sending down Ross, Valentin, the ENTIRE bullpen, etc. etc. etc. Maybe this move will work, which I hope it does. But it just looks to me like they were looking for a significant player to blame, and since Encarnacion is young, he was their man.

Again, not saying it was classless... but I don't agree with the move. This team has way more problems than a still developing third baseman getting off to a slow start.

redsmetz
05-10-2007, 10:56 PM
I have to agree with the scape goating comment. I don't feel that it's been handled in a classless manner, but there are plenty of player's struggling so far this season, many with name recognition. True, Edwin doesn't have that reputation yet, but I don't really feel like him going to Louisville will change anything. The same move was made with Austin Kearns a few seasons ago, but really, how much of an impact did it have? Kearns is currently on another team.

I like Encarnacion, and it's important to remember how young the guy still is. He's been one of MANY problems on this team, and if he gets sent down, they should also be sending down Ross, Valentin, the ENTIRE bullpen, etc. etc. etc. Maybe this move will work, which I hope it does. But it just looks to me like they were looking for a significant player to blame, and since Encarnacion is young, he was their man.

Again, not saying it was classless... but I don't agree with the move. This team has way more problems than a still developing third baseman getting off to a slow start.

But there are different circumstances and different realities. Ross, as has been noted often, is getting the job done behind the plate. I see Valentin as a non-issue. He's replaceable, if nothing else and don't see any need for someone like him to go down. Entirely different circumstances.

Ron Madden
05-10-2007, 11:08 PM
Jerry Narron has been given a better Owner, GM and pitching staff to work with than Dave Miley ever had and he still sucks.

Miley was crucified throughout Reds Country.

Narron has the media and half the Fanbase making excuses for him.

NorrisHopper30
05-10-2007, 11:10 PM
Doc said that he talked to Castellini today and that Narron will have a bit of a leash because the team overachieved last year. I don't know if I agree with that, but I do think he shouldn't be fired yet until the players can sort out some things. It's not his fault that the bullpen sucks.

noskill27
05-11-2007, 01:12 AM
A couple things that bother me about the whole Narron-EE thing...

First was how Narron benched EE for two games after he got a big two-out, two-strike, two-run single back on April 16th. That's the kind of hit that can get a player out of a slump, but Narron killed any momentum EE could've gotten out that by sitting him. I can't understand why Narron did that...

Second is that despite all his struggles this year, EE is still getting it done when it counts. Not only is he hitting .276/.382/.488 w/RISP, but his 14 RBI w/RISP leads the Reds!

I just have to wonder what would happen if Narron showed the same patience and protection with EE that he does with Hamilton...

TeamBoone
05-11-2007, 01:18 AM
It's a convenient way to make sure Hamilton gets a lot of playing time.

I'm not saying I don't like Hamilton in the lineup, because I definitely do... but still, it's convenient.

Stingray
05-11-2007, 01:25 AM
I dont get it?? How has Narron or WK embarrassed EE and Coffey?? Being sent to the minors happens to players every day in MLB, why is this so bad?

I posted the following on in another thread it explains how I would have handled the situation whitout making a scapegoat of EE. I wasn't suggesting Narron had embarrassed Coffey - just that he was another young guy who had been struggling. In fact the difference in treatment of EE & Coffey illustrates the scapegoating of one player(EE).


If handled properly, going to AAA for a short time could benefit both for EE and the Reds. The problem is Narron(& WK?) seem more intent on showing up EE than they do in helping him. Don't wait for him to make a critical error and option him the next day. Talk privately to him, tell him he's pressing and he's going to be optioned so he can relax and get back in his groove and you expect him to be back soon.. Tell him he going to start a few more games so the move doesn't have a punitive feel to it. Then option him.

In any business, if you expect respect from the people working for you, you have to show them respect.

I hate the arrrogant way Narron treats the young guys.

mroby85
05-11-2007, 02:35 PM
the only problem i really have with this move is the fact that it seems there are double standards. for example, they have put up with the bullpen blowing who knows how many games now. david ross is slumping just as bad as edwin is, and coffey and stanton have gotten hammered all over the place. I just don't think i would've sent edwin down simply because he's a young guy, and i thought it seemed like he was starting to hit the ball harder. i realize it was probably the defense from his last game that caused it though.

durl
05-11-2007, 02:51 PM
I posted the following on in another thread it explains how I would have handled the situation whitout making a scapegoat of EE. I wasn't suggesting Narron had embarrassed Coffey - just that he was another young guy who had been struggling. In fact the difference in treatment of EE & Coffey illustrates the scapegoating of one player(EE).


If handled properly, going to AAA for a short time could benefit both for EE and the Reds. The problem is Narron(& WK?) seem more intent on showing up EE than they do in helping him. Don't wait for him to make a critical error and option him the next day. Talk privately to him, tell him he's pressing and he's going to be optioned so he can relax and get back in his groove and you expect him to be back soon.. Tell him he going to start a few more games so the move doesn't have a punitive feel to it. Then option him.

In any business, if you expect respect from the people working for you, you have to show them respect.

I hate the arrrogant way Narron treats the young guys.

It's been said before but I really, REALLY don't see any arrogance on the part of Narron and the front office here. None. At all.

AAA isn't a dungeon used to "show up" players on the whim of taskmaster GMs. They're not going to waste time and money on someone just to embarrass them.

durl
05-11-2007, 03:00 PM
the only problem i really have with this move is the fact that it seems there are double standards. for example, they have put up with the bullpen blowing who knows how many games now. david ross is slumping just as bad as edwin is, and coffey and stanton have gotten hammered all over the place. I just don't think i would've sent edwin down simply because he's a young guy, and i thought it seemed like he was starting to hit the ball harder. i realize it was probably the defense from his last game that caused it though.

The difference with Ross is that he has two jobs and he's doing one VERY well. Besides, for the most part we don't expect catchers to be 30HR/90 RBI guys with a .320 AVG.

EE has two jobs and, sadly, isn't doing either one well. (I had him on my fantasy team ALL year hoping he'd pull out of his slump, by the way.)

Really, sending EE down shows support for him and a belief in his potential. If the Reds thought he wasn't worth the trouble, they'd trade him for someone with potential or release him outright. He's not making huge money so it wouldn't hit their checkbook very hard.

NorrisHopper30
05-11-2007, 03:11 PM
Really, sending EE down shows support for him and a belief in his potential. If the Reds thought he wasn't worth the trouble, they'd trade him for someone with potential or release him outright. He's not making huge money so it wouldn't hit their checkbook very hard.

Perfectly said, if EE takes this the right way I can see him coming back sooner rather than later.

Degenerate39
05-11-2007, 03:19 PM
What manager could have a winning record with this bullpen?

Screwball
05-11-2007, 04:50 PM
Fielding wise, I'm sure he's got a much better fielding percentage at third this year than Free and much better range in the field than Freel or Castro.



2007 at 3B:

EE - F%: .914; Range Factor: 2.21/game; Innings: 238.67
Freel - F%: .917; Range Factor: 2.75/game; Innings: 53.67

Career:

EE - F%: .925; Range Factor: 2.57/game; Innings: 1648.00
Freel - F%: .936; Range Factor: 2.64/game; Innings: 613.33

So far this year they're both well under the league average for fieldeing %, which is .961. However, while Freel is above the league average for range factor (2.42), EE is below it. It's a common misconception here at RZ that EE is far superior to Freel as far as range and fielding are concerned at 3B. In fact, it is just the opposite - Freel is a better defensive third baseman according to the numbers.

Stingray
05-11-2007, 05:34 PM
2007 at 3B:

EE - F%: .914; Range Factor: 2.21/game; Innings: 238.67
Freel - F%: .917; Range Factor: 2.75/game; Innings: 53.67

Career:

EE - F%: .925; Range Factor: 2.57/game; Innings: 1648.00
Freel - F%: .936; Range Factor: 2.64/game; Innings: 613.33

So far this year they're both well under the league average for fieldeing %, which is .961. However, while Freel is above the league average for range factor (2.42), EE is below it. It's a common misconception here at RZ that EE is far superior to Freel as far as range and fielding are concerned at 3B. In fact, it is just the opposite - Freel is a better defensive third baseman according to the numbers.


Yes, I found those numbers for 2007 on the Reds website after I started this thread and started a new thread on the ORG. Are those career #'s for Freel at 3B only or do they include other positions he's played? Their career RFs are almost identical.

Notwithstanding the range factor numbers my eyes tell me EE has far better range than Freel. Maybe small sample size, maybe I'm just wrong.

Screwball
05-11-2007, 05:40 PM
Yes, I found those numbers for 2007 on the Reds website after I started this thread and started a new thread on the ORG. Are those career #'s for Freel at 3B only or do they include other positions he's played?

Notwithstanding the range factor numbers my eyes tell me EE has far better range than Freel. Maybe small sample size, maybe I'm just wrong.

The career numbers for Freel and EE are for 3B.

I agree that my eyes tell me EE has better range at 3rd than does Freel. But the numbers tell me maybe I have a selective memory. However, the numbers do agree that Castro has God-awful range at 3rd, and really is only a downgrade defensively there, despite what Brantley and Thom might tell you.

Stingray
05-11-2007, 06:17 PM
The career numbers for Freel and EE are for 3B.

I agree that my eyes tell me EE has better range at 3rd than does Freel. But the numbers tell me maybe I have a selective memory. However, the numbers do agree that Castro has God-awful range at 3rd, and really is only a downgrade defensively there, despite what Brantley and Thom might tell you.

Agreed

cincrazy
05-11-2007, 06:36 PM
Whoa now, David Ross might be doing better now, but for the second half of last season and the first month of this season, he was one of the WORST hitter's I've ever seen. I like David Ross, but why does EE always get piled on, and not a word is said about Ross from the power's that be?

I have a feeling that there's more to this than we all know. Maybe EE isn't the best of teammate's, or is somewhat of a problem in the clubhouse, and everyone is being a good sport and not letting the media know about it. I hope him getting sent down is more about attitude that it is production. If that's the case, I'm ok with it. But if it's just based on performance, he's way down on the list of guy's I'd jettison to Louisville.

Redlegs
05-11-2007, 06:48 PM
I disagree with your entire post, but your beef sounds to be with Krivsky. He's the guy who options players, not the manager.

I really enjoy these message boards. The best thing about them is the fact we can have store clerks, insurance salesmen, resteraunt owners, and even the mailman (like myself) have all these ideas as to how to manage a major league baseball team better than the guy doing it, even though we don't have a lick of MLB experience. :D