PDA

View Full Version : Mike Marshal wants to end all arm injuries.......



hebroncougar
05-10-2007, 06:40 PM
Former Dodger Cy Young Award Winner Mike Marshall, who has a Ph.D. in exercise physiology believes he's come up with a pitching motion that will eliminate arm injuries. Watch the video, interesting and strange stuff. Anyone know who the oft injured Reds pitchers from earlier in the decade that were sent to him?

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Am5a7mIWHf03yIMIqdXTJNQRvLYF?slug=jp-marshall051007&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Degenerate39
05-10-2007, 06:42 PM
Anyone know who the oft injured Reds pitchers from earlier in the decade that were sent to him?

Rijo?

rotnoid
05-10-2007, 06:59 PM
I didn't try it full speed, but that motion looks to remove a lot of the pressure from the shoulder and transfer it to the elbow and wrist.

Even if it eliminates "all arm injuries" it'll be at least a generation before it takes off. Can't exactly teach old dogs new tricks.

PuffyPig
05-10-2007, 07:04 PM
I didn't try it full speed, but that motion looks to remove a lot of the pressure from the shoulder and transfer it to the elbow and wrist.

Even if it eliminates "all arm injuries" it'll be at least a generation before it takes off. Can't exactly teach old dogs new tricks.

Yeah, it might eliminate shoulder injuries, and transfer them to elbow injuries.

Number_Fourteen
05-10-2007, 07:12 PM
Looks good to see the hand not dropping low causing that whip like effect. Also, the lead foot lands so far open he cannot throw across the body - opposite of a Dontrelle or a Sid Fernandez. Looks like a windmill kinda motion that seems to place more upper body weight "behind" the shoulder throughout the entire range, thereby relieving stress to the shoulder AND elbow it appears.

So much for the drop-and-drive technique according to Marshall! Interestingly, the 3 drop-and-drive guys that come to mind; Seaver, Ryan and Clemens, all pitched well into their 40's effectively without much arm trouble. They might be genetic freaks, but they sure had a lot in common and played a combined 75 years virtually injury free. Perhaps Marshall's technique can work for a great many pitchers, but I just don't see it for power pitchers or "leg guys".

I kinda like Dr. Marshall, but his works needs testing and success at the ML level.

hebroncougar
05-10-2007, 08:24 PM
I think it's cool stuff. If you were a GM, would you give it a whirl with some lower level prospects?

BoldOD
05-10-2007, 08:42 PM
...for most games pitched? 104 I believe; though I remember this from years back, it may be broken now.

Joseph
05-10-2007, 08:53 PM
106 games

Anyway, to me that looks like it puts a lot of torque on the elbow and wrist, I'm not sure if it's a 'different' kind of torque thats less stressful than standard pitching or what.

Would I allow a pitcher to give it a shot in A ball? Yes absolutely.

captainmorgan07
05-10-2007, 08:55 PM
106 games

Anyway, to me that looks like it puts a lot of torque on the elbow and wrist, I'm not sure if it's a 'different' kind of torque thats less stressful than standard pitching or what.

Would I allow a pitcher to give it a shot in A ball? Yes absolutely.

i agree start with a few guys in A ball as an experiment never can hurt

KoryMac5
05-10-2007, 09:25 PM
I also read the article, it would seem like someone would want to give it a shot. Baseball unfortunately is a closed clique and once you are on the outside it is hard to get back in. One of his pitchers is going to have to be successful along the way and then he may get a chance to work some magic.

Sea Ray
05-10-2007, 09:36 PM
Looks like an overhand version of a fast pitched softball. I don't think there is such a thing as a pitching motion that avoids all injuries but I would like to see a major league use his methods.

Didn't the Reds have a Mike Marshall disciple in the minor leagues a couple years back? I seem to recall someone in A Ball who was pitching in relief that had a nasty screwball and was really racking up the strike outs.

StillFunkyB
05-10-2007, 10:00 PM
Am I dumb or does it seem like it's alot easier to pick up what pitch is coming?

Watching that video I couldn't help but think that a major league hitter would be all over any pitcher that tried this after an AB or two.

George Foster
05-10-2007, 11:26 PM
since your arm was not meant to throw a ball 90 mph, or a breaking ball, any motion by the arm can result in injury, no matter what motion you use. There are some examples of guys going their whole careers without injuries, but we should look at the norm instead of the "freaks."

Reds Freak
05-11-2007, 12:27 AM
I remember reading about this about five years ago or so. It's always sounded interesting and been a good read but I would have thought somebody would have tried and tested this technique by now but I have never heard anyone having any success with it.

cincinnati chili
05-11-2007, 01:19 AM
Am I dumb or does it seem like it's alot easier to pick up what pitch is coming?



You've nailed precisely the paradox of pitching in the major leagues. So many scouts praise the guys with the smooth fluid motions and consistent release points. And in a way they should. Those guys stay healthy and have an easier time throwing strikes.

But it's the herky jerky guys who throw from umpteen different arm angles that scare the crap out of hitters and can be the most diabolical before their arms flame out.

Number_Fourteen
05-11-2007, 04:41 AM
You've nailed precisely the paradox of pitching in the major leagues. So many scouts praise the guys with the smooth fluid motions and consistent release points. And in a way they should. Those guys stay healthy and have an easier time throwing strikes.

Mark Prior says hi.


But it's the herky jerky guys who throw from umpteen different arm angles that scare the crap out of hitters and can be the most diabolical before their arms flame out.

Luis Tiant also says hi ;)

TeamSelig
05-11-2007, 08:23 AM
I always thought that Keith Foulke always had a good way to pitch w/o much stress on your arm. He almost held back his pitches or something, but it was pretty weird. Didn't work out for him too much.

I think the main thing is conditioning and knowing when you've put too much stress/pressure on your arm.

Livan Hernandez is a good example. That guy throws like 300 pitches every star (exaggerating)... but I think it is okay with him because his body can handle it and I'm sure he works his arm out in the off season to be able to throw that many. I.E. you work yourself up to 100 pitches, but in a game (where the pitches will be thrown w/ more intensity due to adrenaline,etc.) you throw 115 or so, then it's not smart. I'm not sure on how pitchers get ready for the season (maybe TeamClark or somebody might know), but when I pitched we never conditioned to throw all that many pitches. Maybe they should (if they dont already) condition themselves to throw 130 so when Narron leaves Lohse/Harang/Arroyo one more extra inning then they won't be so tired.

dabvu2498
05-11-2007, 08:33 AM
Am I dumb or does it seem like it's alot easier to pick up what pitch is coming?

Watching that video I couldn't help but think that a major league hitter would be all over any pitcher that tried this after an AB or two.

I kinda thought the same thing.

One other thought: baserunners would run wild on a guy doing this.

oneupper
05-11-2007, 08:33 AM
Mike Marshall was an absolute STUD as a RP. If you read "Ball Four" you know he's also a genius.

I'd take anything he says VERY seriously, even if it does go against conventional wisdom.

Always Red
05-11-2007, 08:36 AM
Interesting video, but still looks like stress on the elbow.

Pitching a baseball is a violent motion. As long as men throw the rock 90+ mph, there will be back, shoulder and arm injuries.

Some men are built to be able to withstand the rigors of doing so, even with weird or quirky motions (see Luis Tiant). Others just are not built to handle the stress, even when using near perfect mechanics (see Mark Prior).

The real advances in reducing injuries will come when medical types are able to best identify which pitchers are more prone to injury than others are, through a combination of studying their pitching motion, and combining that with imaging studies to look at their actual ligaments, tendons, muscles, bones, and how they react to stress.

Some bodies react better than others.

The technology to actually do this is probably not that far away. Millions of dollars are spent every year on pitchers that wind up being hurt (Milton, Pavano, etc, etc). When some of that money is put into the actual research of identifying ahead of time who is more at risk, then advances will be made, and ultimately the money will be better spent.

RANDY IN INDY
05-11-2007, 09:44 AM
Most body types and arms are different. I think it depends on the person. Finding a pitching motion to fit your type of arm and body is key. Interesting how guys like Glavine and Maddux have not had a lot of problems. Their motions seem to fit their bodies. Roger Clemens and Nolan Ryan are two others.

Krash
05-11-2007, 10:16 AM
Expect WK to sign Marshall any day now...

Chip R
05-11-2007, 10:22 AM
Mike Marshall was an absolute STUD as a RP. If you read "Ball Four" you know he's also a genius.

I'd take anything he says VERY seriously, even if it does go against conventional wisdom.


Sometimes with genius though, there is madness. Marshall has a rep of being a little odd. He's said and done some things that makes people think he has a screw loose. It's tough enough to go against the grain in sports when you actually sound normal. Branch Rickey could get away with talking about OBP and new-fangled ideas because he was part of the establishment and the things he said and did weren't abnormal. Marshall may be 100% correct but he's not part of the establishment and he has that rep of being a bit meshuggenah so baseball people tend to make circles with their finger by the side of their head when he says something.

Always Red
05-11-2007, 10:39 AM
Mike Marshall was an absolute STUD as a RP. If you read "Ball Four" you know he's also a genius.

I'd take anything he says VERY seriously, even if it does go against conventional wisdom.

This is true.

His 1974 season is legendary. 15-12, 2.42 ERA, 21 saves(during the tough save era), 208 IP, WHIP 1.18, and appeared in an astonishing 106 games. He won the NL Cy Young Award, and finished 3rd in the MVP race.

And he never started a single game that year, all that was done in relief!

Mike Marshall might know a little bit about arm stress!

terminator
05-11-2007, 11:48 AM
I read this last night. Thinking about it some more, it makes sense. I played a lot of tennis when I was young and this "pendulum" motion has some similarity to a tennis serving motion. And it's pretty rare that tennis players develop shoulder problems (certainly nothing like baseball pitchers). And on average I would guess they are serving more than 100 times per match and playing on consecutive days. Not that's it's the exact same motion and stress, but I can see where he is coming from.

Will M
05-11-2007, 11:57 AM
since your arm was not meant to throw a ball 90 mph, or a breaking ball, any motion by the arm can result in injury, no matter what motion you use. There are some examples of guys going their whole careers without injuries, but we should look at the norm instead of the "freaks."

you are right. the motion of throwing a football is natural. the motion of throwing a baseball is not. the shoulder and elbow are not meant to take that kind of strain.

GSURedsfan
05-11-2007, 12:19 PM
If Sparks can do what he and Marshall say he can why don't the Reds bring him back?

Brent

redsupport
05-11-2007, 12:31 PM
Marshall ex Tiger combined with Fred Lasher and Fred Gladding

RANDY IN INDY
05-11-2007, 01:20 PM
What about Joe Sparma?;)

Razor Shines
05-11-2007, 05:44 PM
If Sparks can do what he and Marshall say he can why don't the Reds bring him back?

Brent

I think we've had enough of 35+ guys who throw in the low 80s but claim they can throw in the high 80s.

The things this leaves me wondering about (and maybe it's been addressed and I missed it) what happens when they have to pitch from the stretch? Or do guys not get on base when you use this method?

Cooper
05-11-2007, 11:38 PM
looks like a side step--u sure it would be easy to run on?

more about marshall than about method.

Yachtzee
05-12-2007, 10:42 AM
To me, the motion reminds me of the motion of those pitching machines you see at the batting cages. I don't know about picking it up easier or being easier to run on, because the motion toward the plate seems to be a lot more efficient than the classic windup or the stretch windup for some pitchers and the ball can be hidden behind the body for a good portion of the motion. But then the consistent arm motion might make it easier to adjust to. And without the leg kick toward third, there's no way you can use that "fake windup" pick off move (but then, how often does that work). Overall, I think it might be worth a shot for a middle reliever who faces fewer batters, but I don't know how well it would work if the pitcher had to go through the lineup a few times.